cats & classes teams would like -for 06 TYBEE 500

- understand there will be diverse opion and comment on boat -class preferences for this distance ocean racing event which is extensively covered by the media here on Catsailor ,-and will be on OLN t v in June ,-along with the always excellent race film by Robert and Jeanie ,-plus numerous sailing publications and web sites.

Currently the thinking as noted is towards a return to an Inter 20 event as per earlier 1000 mile races ,with perhaps an added Formula 18 class category .

Several teams that race both F-18S and I-20s stated their preference for 20 LENGTH in this predominently downwind race in ocean conditions and seas, -- no F-18S showed this year though would like to see a F-18 class scored and started seperately .

To increase potential partisipation and teams entering the event from different classes and brand categories some favor a Formula 20 rule be used for the 06 TYBEE 500.
Forumla 20 rules are on the F-20 FORUM -http://www.catsailor.com/forums/postlist.php?Cat=&Board=Formula20
based on I-20 basic specifications with matching sail pattern rules so the only major difference would be hull shape as per F-18 .
This would encourage entrants from various class types and offer the oportunity to modify their boat for ocean racing as listed here http://www.catsailor.com/forums/sho...;view=collapsed&sb=5&o=&vc=1
plus potentially several others requiring modification to F-20 compliant specifications.

An added class and or alternative that would also require a seperate start and should be scored on a first across the line wins basis would be an open class ,--again started and scored seperately at a latter time off the beach.
Where to draw the line in length limit in the open class is a matter for discussion , In open racing at numerous events the winning boat type has varied . The Tornado -Marstrom 20 ,-CFR 20 -SC 20 -and others have won line honors in distance races in recent years .Perhaps this is the basis for an open class category for the 06 TYBEE 500 .

Either the F-20 or the open class senario would interest this racing sailor enough to show on the starting line again in 06. Having definative classes and boats defined allows teams to begin training and planning this season along with CREW -team members and obtaining potential team sponsors that include budgetary outlines for these boats and teams.

Any racing sailor or team potentially interested in racing the TYBEE 500 should let their boat-class preferences be known ,-please post .

thanks
Carl

Carl,
Are you involved with running the Tybee 500 or Outer Banks 500 in any way?
Do you have any official position with the Tybee 500 or Outer Banks 500?

offtopic
Samevans I sent you a private message.

Carl, you already know my view on this, but for people who weren't following the earlier discussion on the F20 forum, may I try to frame your final question in a way that gets at what seems to me to be the critical issues...


1. If you (anyone) have contemplated racing the Tybee in a one-design class on an assumption that you would have enough competitors for separate class scoring (and based on recent history, I think that effectively means I-20), would you be happy to race instead as an F-20, i.e. compete first-to-finish against any boat (I-20 or not) that satisfies the rule that Carl has proposed (and which is designed to reflect the design parameters of the I-20).

2. If you have contemplated racing the Tybee in a boat that would likely not have enough competitors for a one design start (and so would otherwise have to sail open class) but would satisfy Carl's proposed rule, would you be happy to race on a pure first-to-finish basis against any other boat that satisfies that rule, including, for example, I-20 (i.e. would you race F-20 and not open class).

3. If you have contemplated racing the Tybee in open class (regardless of whether or not you would satisfy the proposed rule), how many competitors would you consider necessary for it to be worth your while?


Whether there is enough readership here to actually reach significant conclusions on the issues above I'm not sure, but these represent what I think are the main questions that bear on the viability of F-20 racing in the Tybee.

(Disclaimer: In case it's of interest to Sam or anyone else, I am not in any way connected with any aspect of the Tybee 500, beyond being an interested observer.)

Mark.

(still an F16 devotee; just think the prospect of another formula class is interesting)

I reckon I would be interested in bringing the super Taipan to the race, would be perfect for the boat. Any idea on the ground crew support required?

Ground crew? You need at least two ground crew persons. We've had motorhomes and we've had hotel rooms - Personally, I prefer the hotel rooms most of the time. There was a stop or two that didn't have balconies which was a pain the butt because that meant we had to hang our stinky, moist, and salty gear inside the hotel rooms. The ground crew prefers hotel rooms because getting from point A to point B is easier in cars and parking, once you get there, is much easier to come by. Ideally, you want a passanger van (big enough to carry the whole team) and/or a small pickup truck with enclosed storage in the back. We take a lot of spare parts (rudders, boards, sails, etc.) and tools too. Once you figure in all the associated fuel costs of running an RV, the hotel rooms come out only slightly more expensive (depends on how you are stacking up sleeping arrangements).

As it relates to the questions Carl posed and Mark's rephrasing - it is an interesting question to ponder.

A point that was made at the end of the race by race organizer, Chuck B., was that he has opened up the race to the "open" class but they haven't shown up. While I think in some regards that might be true, this past year didn't give them much of a chance. We were supposed to see two Tornados in this years event but I know that at least one of them pulled out because the northern leg (where their sponsor was located) was cancelled and they lost their sponsorship. Last year, several 6.0's and I20s showed up in force - but honestly, I think that good showing put a nail in the coffin of the 6.0 class....we had some of the best 6.0 sailors in the country competing and I think they left the event wondering why they weren't sailing I20s because most of them own one now. The 6.0 is a good boat and can keep up or sometimes outperform the I20 when the wind angle and sea state are right for it's narrower hull shape and large jib. However, the I20 hulls and sail plan are significantly better optomimized for offshore racing.

As it stands now, to open up the race to a non-existant F20 class is to ask for custom built boats since there are no other F20 platforms. However, for people to make that kind of time and money investment the race will need to prove to be here to stay (which includes consistent attendance and early planning) and have a succesful open class for several years.

Looking back, we saw the Worrell migrate from sorta-one design, to a very open rule, and back to a very strict one design (that, IMHO, could have been very succesfull - they got a bunch of teams to put up a $5000 entry fee!). Personally, I think this one design is evolution of our sport and a strong one design showing will bring more prestige to the event. The more I race, whether it's around the cans or up the coast, the more I see things the way David Ingram does (should somebody just shoot me now?). I'm not opposed to you guys having an open class, and I'm going to reserve the right to change my mind when I'm rich, don't have to work, and can afford to build a one-off monster...but I would rather keep the competition on the water than in the garage. For me now, I prefer to loose to a better sailor - not a better boat and really like the one design format.

Perhaps the open invitation should stay - if they don't show up again, so what? Who loses? I do think that if three Tornados show up and their crews are consistantly sitting on shore already showered and dressed when the I20 fleet comes in, you'll quickly see more and more Tornados because they're readily available (much like what happened to the Inter20s). If someone builds a viable F20 and races in open class and has success, I think you'll see more of those show up. If someone builds a one-off monster and is successful, you will see more of those (albeit more slowly because of the additional time and resource involved to build). It's going to take two or three pioneers to create a movement away from the current course of the race but while I'm not opposed to having an open class in the race, I don't care to race in it.

Hi Jake
It was great racing with you ,-hope you have enjoyed the TYBEE 500 pics and Roxy,s photos especially, as much as I have ,-be sure if you are a part of any team to check out Roxy,s site,-click on galleries --then tybee 500
http://www.shotbyroxy.com/

Have had an ongoing conversation with TYBEE 500 organizer-s who have basically stated to please go ahead and encourage constructive diologue on this subject .They would of course like to accomodate the preferences of racing teams .

The 20 foot category platforms available along with parts etc are numerous and can be purchased used for very little . listed here -http://www.catsailor.com/forums/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Board=Formula20&Number=49650&page=0&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=&vc=1

I don,t believe any custom building is required ,-and rules are tight enough with matching specifications and matching sail outline patterns that no advantage would be gained by not using an existing boat or at least basic platform with new matching sail plan if prefered.

For example -if the Formula 20 rule is in effect, with my heavier 400 LB crew weight I might opt for more of a narrower displ.type hull rather than Inter type wide flatter semi-planning type hull . I might take a NACRA 6/0 or evan SC or ARC 20 type hulls boards larger rudders and place the matching Inter mast rig and sails on it.
Any 20 could be modified to match the current I-20 specifications and sail patterns to comply with the F-20 rule ,-The HOBIE FOX could be upgraded and lightened ,-the Hobie 20 could be modified and raced successfully as the younger Aussie team proved in the 98 W-1000 race ,-a team could take Tornado hulls and modify to an 8.5 beam -385 LB weight ,with matching sail plan to make a F-20 compliant cat, numerous possible existing options are available from numerous brand types classes and potentially larger pool of racing teams .
What you would see is teams modifying boats of choise to their preferences including reef systems and other ocean racing safety modifications as well as support and interest from other numerous boat mfg and dealerships.

The Formula 20 rule adds a much larger potential pool of boats and racing teams and allows them options for ocean racing .
Some have done the Atlantic coastal races 5 or 6 times on I-20s now ,----

The other class that interests is an open class category ,-if I knew several teams were racing a particular type of cat or group of similar lighter-weight larger beam cats I would purchase one now and race and tune it this season with the 06 TYBEE 500 and Atlantic 1000 in mind . The Tornado seems a match for the Marstom and CFR 20 types ,-perhaps getting commitments from 5 to 10 teams in this category would be fun .
--The open class ,--and this is important --requires a latter seperate start off the beach with seperate first across the line wins scoring ,-and should not interfere with other class racing .

Either class would be fine with me ,but would like to have some idea of which direction to go with a boat selection and crew training , so the need for constructive diologue and hearing from other potential interested teams.

Carl

I think there is room for a development or formula class on a race with the rigors and prestige of T-500 / A-1000, but I think the original idea was to put together an intense distance race that is still affordable to the up-and-coming sailing teams. With all of the ancillary costs, the format of the race at present is pushing the bugetary (and time) limits of most working stiffs.

I like the one design for the same reasons that Dave and Jake mentioned. But every great one design had to start somewhere (in an open or development class). I'll leave that to the cash heavy teams. As you said, Jake, I'd like to win on the course, not in the garage.

That being said, and figuring there will be growth in the development/open class next year, would you still bring your I-20, or would you buy an M-20? If you were a 6.0 sailor, would you move to an I-20 or another open class boat (M-20, T, etc.)?

Hey Carl - it was a great week indeed!

While I think most of us agree on 80% of this issue - the remainder can be explained by looking at our physical attributes. At just under 5'8" (this is the ONE time that is an advantage!) I can get my body weight to a little less than 1/2 of the minimum crew weight of an I20 and still have plenty of physical fitness to fullfill the requirements of the boat. Jay is pretty much the same. Because we can both get to minimum weight, we are both pretty satisfied to sail in the strict OD I20 fleet. Carl, although in better trim than I, is considerably more than 6' in height so for him to find a way to reach minimum weight for the existing I20 or N6.0 is much more difficult. The I20 handles heavy teams much better than most other platforms but it still makes a pretty big difference carrying an additional 10% full-up weight than everyone else.

So how can the bigger guys find a way to be more competitive? The Formula is the answer where the platforms are flexible enough that the bigger guys can have custom sails and/or masts made to help offset the additional weight (much like the A-class guys do).

I'm all for an open fleet in the Tybee - why wouldn't you include them? What do we lose if they continue to allow an open fleet? (nothing). I would however like to see the opens and each class have their own start in the future to promote both kinds of racing. Then the race can let evolution take over and see which class develops better numbers over time. I predict we will see the boat that offers the best combinationof speed and affordability continue to grow in numbers in this kind of racing. For now, the I20 has fit that bill very well.

I do not believe many teams - especially those that are up front, will subscribe quickly to the Formula 20 concept and simply consider their I20 platform now Formula 20. It will take a new breed(s) of boat that is as faster or faster and as affordable or more affordable to convince these guys to change. The F18 class was unique in that there was not a popular/affordable 18' spinnaker equipped boat in the market and it found this niche and defined a platform that could be very competitive, faster, affordable, and useable by people with varying physical attributes. There is already a couple popular 20' spinnaker equiped platforms which makes the assembly of a Formula class around this a more complicated task.

Let me preface this with the fact that I like One-design/F18 racing.

I believe the F20 rules as proposed by Carl are too open and leave room for a one-off boat to be significantly faster on certain points of sail.

I believe the Worrell and the Tybee 500 were at their biggest and best when they went one-design. Whenever the competitions were opened up I think attendance has suffered.

I believe you will never attract international teams unless you pick a one-design class. By picking a one-design class international teams can buy or lease a boat for the race much easier.

I think you have two classes that could be picked to run next year being an I20 or an F18. I don't think anyone is interested in finishing last so if you run these together people will race the I20.

I think if a Tornado would have run the event this year it would have won the event hands down. The beam is simply too valuable to ignore. By having a mixed crowd I believe it detracts from the event.

In my opinion, after having run the race this year, I believe it should be on a one-design or F18 boat in the future. I mean I could have brought my Tiger and raced this event this year but that would have really been a bad experience. Instead I bought an I20 to race with and had fun.

Mike Hill
www.stlouiscats.com

I think that it _can_ be a successful open or F20 event. Look at the Texel race.. They have all types of boats. You could have an overall line honours winner and then break it out into different fleets f20, I20, f18 whatever..

I stated previously that I don't think that F20 will fly unless one (more) or more manufacturers start building to the spec. Right now we have an F20 fleet with 1 manufacturer. I don't think that retrofitting boats to the spec is going to go anywhere...Why do that when they can just buy an I20?

First of all sitting on the sidelines this year was a real bummer, but I wouldnt have done this race on my F18, no way, its just not the boat to take up the coast. I know the old guys will say we used to do it on a H16, but those days are over if you want to finish before dinner time. The I20 is THE boat for this race, its proved its might, and I dont believe an average or even above average team on a Tornado would beat JC or Rick Bliss, Ive sailed against them and the are the shiznit when it comes to this race and making the I20 perform.
I love the F18, but its no I20.
I love the SC 20, but its not durable enough for 6 days of this.
I love the Marstrom and the CFR, but I think it will self destruct in a big blow.
What does that leave? The 6.0 and the I20, proven boats.

Hi Mike

Matching the current model US version I-20 specifications in F-20 limits all to equal basic design features just as F-18 accomplishes .
A preface favoring one should not exclude the other if intent is the same.

To close the "open" imaginary one of boat fears, an existing factory boat list could be added eliminating one of specially custom built cats.
The list of existing factory 20s currently available can be found here -all may undergo modification per F-20 rules and max specs .
http://www.catsailor.com/forums/sho...;view=collapsed&sb=5&o=&vc=1

Just as F-18 racing includes Hobie Tigers -Nacra F-18S -Mysteres etc -
F-20s are to include conforming makes and conforming modified versions of existing factory 20 ft cats in order to get started having the existing condition of US version Inter 20 being BUILT PER PERFORMANCE CATS lighter and having more sail area than existing EU F-20 cats specifically the F-20 Storm -Ventilo and Hobie Fox plus EU version Inter 20 ,and also existing 20s in the US .

It has to begin with racing sailors here , not necessarily Hobie EU or Perf cats.

The alternative as noted is to let them go the way of so many previous dead boat classes and get on to the lighter weight larger beam version 20s already available ,currently in a potential open category for the 06 Tybee 500 ,POSSIBLY A ht Formula 20 class in the future .
Either is fine .
happy sailing
Carl

How might the ARC 21 fit into this picture?

My two cents worth:

The driving force in the EU behind the growth of the F18 class was buoy racing not distance racing. The number of dedicated buoy cat racers is much larger then distance racers. (This past weekend at least three events drew 40 + boats each)… You need this circuit FIRST and FORMOST

The essential stats of the F18 class are relatively high and fixed min boat weight, max stick height and max beam. The large market of dedicated buoy racers continues to draw new designers and builders and existing builders to continuously fine tune their designs for small performance gains within easy to meet construction standards. BUT it’s the market of buoy racers that makes all of this happen.

What is the market for the 20 footers?
Factors that impact on its popularity and limit it are:
1) A 20 foot sail plan by its nature requires a stronger team to manage..... eg smaller market.
2) Handles physically large teams well.... = small market (BUT this market has no place else to go!)
3) Effective use of the sail power argues for a wider beam which makes it less user friendly for weekend events.... eg. smaller market yet again.
4) Light weight = joy to sail= acceleration, fun factor etc etc. ... Standard weight is not much of difference from F18's. But light weight will cost a noticeable amount more and the result is likely to be a smaller market.

As Mark has pointed out, the I20 owns the 20 foot market in North America now AND IT DOES NOT SEEM TO BE GROWING (me)! The Fox, Miracle (H20), Mystere 6.0 Nacra 6.0, ARC, Taipan, Hurricane designs have not caught on in any big way or have peaked years ago (sloop rigs) and may not be in production. (The Tornado doesn't fit the basic rule.)

Why would you, a builder, commission a NEW design to compete using the I20 parameter set if you think the market is really small and limited in its appeal ???

Seems to me that a F20 rule that sets a min boat weight at about the I20, with a stick height = to the I20 with a 8'6" beam will not draw new builders... it may convince someone with lots of cash to experiment with one of the other designs.... but if the race costs you about 5 to 10 K in operating costs...and a new or used I20 is 15K..... Why do the engineering (unless that's your thing)?

I would declare the class as F20.... spec it out within this I20 parameter space... and go racing... You MIGHT get one or two teams that want to play with something other then an I20. Perhaps a carbon tornado rig on one of the aforementioned 8'6 platforms that all up weighs in at 420 lbs. Don't be surprised if no one else comes to play… PS…no matter what… measure the sails and let sailmakers build sails for teams even if it’s all I20’s..


What is really needed is a HT Formula rule which raises the performance bar, produces a great light weight, high performance boats! The M20 exists, the Super Taipan 5.7 has been built.. see (MACCA posts)... Ventilo probably has their 20 footer in production, Eagle has a 20 footer available…. The Blade 20 is rumored!

What is essential here is that the rule have buy in from existing builders or potentially interested builders AND most importantly a circuit of high profile buoy or match races which fills the demand for tactical high speed racing... plus the standard high profile distance races (raids as the French call them) be established and have the commitment of 5 to 10 teams to get things going.

What’s the market?. Big teams, (Small teams can play because you always can scale down the power) Teams that want to push the design envelope. Teams that want the BEST Performance, the Top sailors who want to compete against the best on the best and anyone who values performance.

(Perhaps the physics of boat design automatically constrains what 2 humans can manage and you don't need much of a rule beyond 2 people but that is a different thread and I don’t know enough about it to lead a discussion)

In the end... you need high profile events... high profile sailors and great HT 20 footers to get this new Formula class to fly. If it ever does take off.... the venerable Olympic Tornado should be replaced with one of the top HT 20's whose builder agreed to the ISAF rule set... (eg. virtually one design)… It would still be able to play in this new formula class for quite some time.

Personally, I see the practical near term financially sane solution is my ersatz 20 class... Tornado's, I20's and any other 400+ lb 19 to 20 foot boats racing on handicap and formula in fun events that I can get to....

Take Care
Mark

Ok, Here`s my take on things (outsider`s perspective) :
I always wanted to do the Worrell 1000, ever since I heard of it. It`s not likely to happen, but if I lived in the US it would have been on my 'must-do-before-I-die' list.
Without the OBX 500, the Tybee 500 looks like half the challenge, although that is no fault of the organisers, but of a lack of participation in the 2nd leg, probably budget & time constraints due to the fact that most people who earn enough to do the event struggle to get much free time from work, especially if self-employed. Unfortunately, I think that the full 1000mile race would attract more wanna-be participants than actual entries, but would elevate the event back to what it once was, at least in the eyes of the spectators/fans.
That being said, if I lived in the US, I`d drive 4 days across country towing my boat and use up all my annual leave to do so, but don`t think I`d buy a boat just to do the event. Some (like Mike Hill) have done so, but I see that as narrowing down the possible list of would-be-competitors.
I would participate in an event of this nature, not to win it or even try, but just to have taken part and hopefully completed it. If I owned an F18, I`d want to do it on that, If I owned an F16, likewise. If there were enough boats in my class, well then I could try & win first in class, not overall.
I know many will say that an F16/F18 is not up to the task, for sure it won`t be the fastest and you won`t win outright, but if these boats are what you are most comfortable sailing in rough conditions, then you are safer than if you bought an I-20 and are too light to handle it. Even less safe is if you chartered a boat and have never sailed it before the event.
This might open the event up to more aspirant long-distance sailors, if they could sail what they want to and feel safest on. Perhaps have an F20, F18 and F16 class, if I arrived and was the only F16 I`d still participate, just for the challenge. If F20 consists of all I-20`s and one N6.0 or M20, it will all sort itself out.
Perhaps look at some sort of criteria, like a min. & max. projected performance based on ISAF rating, so no boat rated faster than 0.94, or slower than 1.04, could enter. This would create a theoretical performance separation of about 10%, or 48min in 8hours of racing. (reality is, of course, not strongly based on statistics, and you might get a surprise either way.)
You might see a few UK sailors who sail Spitfires or Stealths taking an interest, perhaps a few FX-1 sailors (double-handed) and a couple of Hobie 21`s. Eric might bring his ARC-21 if it rated within the parameters.
Macca might bring a T5.7 on steroids.
If opening up the event to attract more participants would be a bad thing for the event, then I`m missing something.
And for goodness sake, let the Tornado`s come & play if they want to, the top I-20 sailors will still have a good shot at winning, looking at the ratings (0.94 vs 0.95).
Half of what`s wrong in our sport is segregation - "we`ve organised a fantastic event, but only for one class of boat". Look, I get the OD principle, it`s the sailor not the boat etc, but I think that it keeps the fleet small and the interest from outside low.

Just my opinion of course - no I-20 sailors were harmed in the writing of this post .

Steve

I agree whole heartedly with Steves comments, exclusion can never be a good thing, There are few people with the cash to go out and buy a boat for an event. I know it takes a lot of commitment to enter an event like this but don't under estimate what can be done on a limited budget by a committed person.

Take a look at Texel, people travel from all over Europe for this. They have to limit the number of entries of course, but wouldn't it be nice if you were having to limit Tybee to 800 boats as well.

Gareth

Hi Eric
The ARC looks great ,congrates on your distance racing .
Believe it could have been entered in the open class this year ,it was very kind of you to offer it as a charter boat ,--perhaps more of this type of communication is needed earlier to put boats teams potential crew and gr crew together ,-all this helps increase partisipation .
,-and that possibility should be available in 06.

The intent of the post-
an Arc 21 fan also
Carl

Good discussion here, though it's a bit esoteric and unless one of us decides to take over the administration of the race, also just for the sake of talking about our favorite sport.

In the case of open class and inclusion of 18- and 16-foot platforms, keep in mind that race committee would need to be prepared to be spread out. While it is true that smaller boats compete in point-to-point events like Texel, they would likely fall significantly behind the larger boats over a week's time... how do you manage that from an administrative standpoint? Remember, this is not a money-making venture, and additional personnel and associated expenses for a separate committee to follow along behind the 20-footers is prohibitive unless everyone is prepared to foot a significantly higher entry fee. No offense intended, but the daily delta between 20-footers this year was sometimes measured in several HOURS. Imagine a 16-footer beating up the beach in the morning breeze after a sleepless night at the helm, blearily watching the 20-footers blast through the surf on the way to the next checkpoint, and trying to decide if its worth popping into the beach for a quick cup of coffee or just keep slogging... Sure, it has been an iron man event before, but sheesh.

My preference, as if it mattered, is to see it as one-design as possible, with better enforcement of class rules (no carbon foils). There are events that are better suited to smaller platforms - you don't put a barrel horse in the Derby.

Chuck did specifically ask us to let him know what we wanted from the race since the race is, in his words, "for the sailors". I think this is beneficial for us to discuss what we want.

I agree with what John said. This year I think a 16 foot design would have made the trip. However we were blessed with some pretty good weather, nothing to heavy. That said, places like Jacksonville Jetty were still pretty hairy (in sea-state) despite the amicable conditions with the weather. I would not want to be on a 16 foot boat when it gets knarly out there.

If enough F16 were to compete in this event, im in.

Wouldnt it be feasable to score it, like any other event. Five or more have a class? everything else is open?
F20
F18
F16 <-- just throwing this into the pot
Open class, everything else that doesnt fall into the formula classes.

Hey Jake -

Chuck has said that from the beginning, but there is only so much he is willing or able to do. In a few cases, sailors went to him with ideas and were told "no," (e.g., the Eagle). I agree with most of his "no" decisions, again, not that it matters - I think the spirit of "a sailor's race" is great, but once the wall of reality is reached, you have to climb it or change direction - it is frequently easier to walk around walls. All of us, including Chuck, know what happens when the event goes to Fantasy Island...

I would not be opposed to sailing an F18 in this race. Even if it gets hairy, we can definitely 'survive'. It's simply a matter of knowing how hard you can push the boat in the given sea state and weather conditions. The I20 has beneficial capabilities in that it is difficult to press it too hard until the wind gets over 15 and the waves pretty tall.

While I would still be open to sailing an F18 in this event, I would want to be part of a significant F18 fleet doing so. This way I wouldn't feel to bad getting to the beach each night while the bigger boat teams are on shore showered, dressed, sipping champaign, and being hand fed grapes and strawberries by scantily clad women.

What!? You missed all that?

Hi Mark
had to check the definition of the ersatz proposal mentioned-

er·satz [ ér z&#63472;ts ]
adjective =artificial: imitating or presented as a substitute for something of superior quality ( disapproving )
[Late 19th century. From German, literally “replacement.”]

The problems with the ersatz handicap class as applied to a 500 or 1000 mile race are numerous .
How do any explain a handicap rating system to the general public viewing it on OLN tv ,--it sounds something like --well er this boat came in 10 minutes ahead of this boat here and although the boat 10 minutes behind has more sail area and is larger and wider the current buoys racing teams that sail it, sail it slower, so it,s boat rating is slower because it is based on their time ,not this skippers time ,-but other skippers in races during the season of various abilities sailing around buoys ,-not 100 miles at a time on the Atlantic Ocean ,--so this boat actually wins the race according to this handicap rating system ,----the responce is generally ,-that seems very unfair to the sailors that sailed well and finished ahead.
An Ersatz {poor substitute} type of race result,-and negative perceptions to the general public result .

The Texel race was brought up -It uses Texel rating based on design measurements ,but though originally intended currently has no windspeed factor to help regulate design factors that vary in wind speed such as board -non board types -and also as per any rating has inherant mathimatical flaws based on averaging requirements and the need for simplicity.
Accepting averaging flaws in any type of rating system ,-then -A pure simple rating based in design measurement ,but only equating the basic box of L B W and sail area in matimatical coresponding curve is needed ,- .-Texel and ISAF approach this -Texel with its power formula of weight length and sail area
,http://www.sailingproshop.com/texel.htm
-beam is needed ,-add spin number ,-then stop there without the added numerous minor design calcs ,and use actual weight -sail area and length -not rated w sa l -,-pure and simple .
To this basic box design rating curve based on L B W and SA then add your preferance of actual finish times and race results , but qualify this with international results and larger pool of results over longer time frames with some means of rating skippers on them and factoring this average into the basic design base rating .
Continue to use the P-rating scale of equating time to distance traveled ,-and use windspeed ,- only 2 -trap non trap wind speed conditions .
-This type of COMBINATION rating system would be an acceptable means of scoring a seperate open class run independantly only if numbers are not suffecient in classes .
{just my 2 cents }

For a 500 mile or 1000 mile race event ,--for any major chapionship event -for Alter cup ,-for regional and national events --for Olympics ,-or anywhere major racing occurs --classes are used for many good reasons.-

Helping define and promote classes for the 06 Tybee of similar design types and comperable actual speed is the intent.
Formula classes of 16 --18 and 20 in seperate staggered starts off the beach with an open first across the line wins class of up to 22 ft may be one solution.

The 05 Tybee 500 race rules stated the open class limit with Texel number ,-this is another good means of defining an open class again started seperately off the beach at a latter time with seperate scoring on a first across the line wins result .

thanks again Mark -always enjoy your opinions ,though not from a distance racing perspective with no interest partisipation in it , and again mean no disrespect or to any very dedicated people that work so hard to maintain current rating systems ,-the intent is to conserve the best aspects of them and combine them to a potentially more internationally and universally accepted rating system .
Rating has always been a very difficult problem and why class racing is generally preferred per ISAF statement .
CDR

Because if you own a hobie 20, nacra 6.0 and can buy some new sails that you were going to have to buy anyway and compete with the growing (in Texas) I20 fleet, without the expense of a new boat, then lets race.

"If enough F16 were to compete in this event, im in. "
Robi, if they allowed F16, I`d be willing to crew, especially if it`s the whole 1000.

Suggest F16 start 20min. ahead of F18, F18 start 20 min. ahead of F20, would bring the fleet closer together at finish, just a thought.

The F20 fleet could still be the glory boys, and would most likely finish first anyway.
Overall winner could still be the first F20, just to keep scoring simple, no handicaps, just score each fleet separately on first-in-wins basis. If there`s a class of anything (ie I-20 / Tornado / Blade), have class winners too. I know it might water down the OD concept a bit, and having multiple winners might confuse the spectators, but not if you explain the concept to them that similar performance boats are grouped in classes - even I understand it.
It makes more sense than golf, and people watch that on TV!

I don`t see the need for any additional support crew other than additional rescue facilities / spotters on the beach, which you`d need anyway if the I-20 fleet miraculously doubled next year anyway (unless the organiser`s intention is to keep it small so it`s easier to manage, which I`d fully understand.)

It depends on the desirable outcome - a 10 boat fleet that attracts a few spectators, or an 40-50 boat fleet that should have a greater chance of getting higher media attention and a higher chance of future growth.
Even as a keen catsailor, I never checked in on the event web-site once this year as the event lacked variation in teams (all from US I think ?), only 2 open-class boats. Not the organiser`s fault at all, in fact they allowed other classes but these never pitched, so perhaps I`m wrong altogether. Perhaps opening up the event to many classes will still only attract 10-12 I-20`s, but then maybe it`s worth a try.
Any decision by the organisers on which class/ classes would have to be made public straight after the end of this years event to give wanna-be`s a year to plan their attempt, even more so for the international teams.

Steve

Its only a matter of showing them someone on a F16 is willing to do it.
For the race organizers this can be a hint hint.

Offer taken lets see what happens next.

Always excellent comments ,-thanks -
Many recall the very good sailing team from S A in the 2001 1000 mile race ,-they won the last leg in severe conditions with 50 mph winds that leg --whew ,--all to windward ,--this after a severe downwind leg around Hatteras with numerous teams flipping repeatedly and one being dismasted ,---hope your able to race it in the near future ,-that is one main reason for the post ,-in hopes that those with the desire may connect with others that have the boat and desire ,-in the hopes of increasing the number of teams entered for the 06 event .
Jake and I put a last minute team together this year with available boat from Mike and TEAM SAILMAX .---though highly recommend interested teams begin planning now .
I hope that we hear from several committed teams that state their preferance for a particular boat ,-Mentioned previously were past winners of the event who had sponsor problems that planned to race a Tornado this year ,---that early commitment and entered teams leads to more competition and more teams . Mentioned also was the return of one or more Aussie teams in 06 ,-this is great news for the 06 event .

hope to see you on the start line in the near future -
CDR

Hi Carl,
Must be referring to Alan Lawrence & crew Johnny van der Vyfer. Alan sails Hobie Tigers with Gordon McGillivray, who was their ground crew that year, the last W1000. They do like good breeze(though 50mph is a bit better than "good" ), and win most Tiger events in SA.

Also had Duncan Ross in the last Atlantic 1000, think he came 2nd overall in both events combined ? Have never met him though, born South African but spends most of his time sailing in Europe I think.

If they opened it up to F16, my chance of attending would be at about 30-50%, better than the 0% it currently stands at.
Perhaps the organisers should hold a poll : If the following classes were allowed , would you attend ? (those who vote "yes" can deposit a non-refundable entry fee / deposit into their account, would make organising the event easier. )

Steve

Hello Grob

It seems keeping an open class is a good concept , the concern is support , commitment from teams ,and getting numbers of open category boats on the starting line .

I,m all for an open class scored seperately on a first across the line wins basis ,started seperately at a latter time off the beach .

As inventor you may appreciate the earlier 1000 mile event boat entrants in 87 when rules were only limited to a 20 ft length .--We had boats with 10 ft racks on each side which were very fast , quick math reveals that a 200 LB crew an additional 10 ft out on a rack provides 2,000 ft Lbs of added righting leverage .-Recall another entry ,-a SC 20 with 40 ft wing mast .-A 12 ft beam Hurricane showed with adjustable side stays that allowed the mast to be adjusted and canted .-I built a planning hull 12 ft beam cat with canting rig ,-though unsuccessfull -great fun ,and fasinating learning experience, though very humbling .

I,m not sure if this type of wide open class should be run again , it may be a sub topic for discussion as well , though think the preferance is towards existing available open category cats like the Tornado -Marstom 20 CFR -AND other larger beam lighter weight cats up to a specified L and or T-rating number as per 05 rules.

Take care -

Carl

Carl:
Do you think a F16 sloop can be considered for this event? or is this way out of the question?

Hey Carl

I believe I said for the Tybee use

F20 Class. Set at the max dimensions of the I20.
expect few boats other then I20's.

HT20 Class using an HT rule that builders have yet to agree upon or one created by the Tybee organizors. This class would suck up the M20, Eagle 20 etc etc and run boat for boat as well.

FYI... Texel now uses 2 ratings... essentially a low wind and a high wind rating.

just my 2 cents -yes ,-though have not sailed a true F-16 currently with kite.
I,ve sailed various 16s and do own a SC 15 which is a joy to sail ,-I love taking it out when there are high winds and storm warnings on the lake ,--and yes have pitchpoled it numerous times ,--great fun ,-it is very capable ,but slower .
Rules require 2 as crew -so crew weight becomes much more a proportional factor , The Atlantic Ocean can be an awfully unforgiving environment to boats and crews unfamiliar with it and unprepared to race 100 mile legs on it . Most veteran racers choose the 20 ft Length category for good reason .

Good thoughts as always John ,
I did miss the countdown this year and did recall events of years past some mornings before the starts which you and team T B were a large part of ,-Nice to see Alex entered in the Texas race and also team Tybee again ,-think the Texas race has had the Arc 21 in years past sail well and be comperable to the I-20 .

There is no interest in quote" the fantisy Island scenario"
and as noted think 16s would have a difficult time in the extreme conditions the Atlantic Ocean can bring.
Think the I-20 and perhaps comperable 20s would make a good class for the event ,-along with a seperate class in an open category for the lighter weight larger beam CATS.
The intent here is per Tybee organizer-s communica to go ahead and have a constructive diologue on the subject .
My hope is to hear from several committed TYBEE teams ON THEIR BOAT INTENTIONS AND PREFERENCES with the hopes of getting as many as possible on the starting line as well as making a boat choise myself for the 06 event which as you know includes boat tuning -training -budgetary concerns -potential sponsors etc .

With LEEs passing Neil is the main race official that faithfully waits until all boats are finished and has been since the 98 race I believe, often late into the early morning hours with our eternal gratitude .

Your concern for the race organizational aspects is as always admirable ,-and believe we should all do what we can to help improve the event and sport ,-constructive diologue is part of that equation .

take care
Carl

F16 sloop is a two person crew.

IT is also very good to know, that it can be considered.

Robi, I'm not sure if your question was concerning eligibility under the rules or just the practical feasibility. As I think someone else mentioned, the current rules are actually quite open: 2-person, production catamarans up to 20 feet, spinnaker rigged by the factory, Texel rating 102 or below.

Currently, I believe Texel has F16 2-up at 103, but I posted a query to Wouter about this over on the F16 forum, as he had previously indicated that F16 was at 102.

In general I think distance racing in an F16 is a pretty interesting prospect, though I suspect folks might want to test that concept with something a little gentler than the Tybee.

Mark.

I like to do sail aways on my boats and have done a few of them; combined with some distance racing. My experience on the F16 (despite still being somewhat limited) is that the speed of the boat is not a problem. As someone else already said, the best I-20 crew and worst I-20 are seperated by several hours. We must all realize that a very good I-20 crew and a very good F16 (or F18) crew WILL NOT be seperated by more than 30 minutes after 10 hours of sailing. The issue is far more between good and bad crews that between 20 and 16 foot boats. It is not like teh worst I-20 crew is hours behind the best I-20 and that the best 16 foot crew is yet again hours behind the worst I-20 crew.

Having said this I still don't think that the F16 is a particulary good platform for a Tybee 500. The significant difference between a 20 ft boat and small boat like the F16 is not the ability to perform OR surviving but rather the demand made on the concentration of the 16 foot crew. It is undeniable that a shorter hulled boat takes more concentration to make it perform optimally. It is more sensitive to steerage and control than a bigger and longer boat. I'm sure an F16 can handle the Tybee 500 legs and the atlantic ocean. These boats over a very wide range of control and are easily depowered. HOWEVER, I'm not that certain that its crews can sustain the required concentration for so many long legs after one another. The first days will be alright but then fatique and possibly lack of sleep will deteriorate the level of concentration that these short boats require. A 20 ft is just easier to sail in this respect.

Last year I did a distance comparable to Texel. One that went 11 miles out to sea as well. We had big wind and big swell with nasty short chop on top of it. The boat handled all without a complaint; we (the crew) however were beat by the end of the race (3 hours). The feel of agility and quick responsiveness is great on any bouy race course, but it becomes tiring in any serious long distance race.

My advice to any short hulled sailor is to become one with the boat before attempting a long distance with rough conditions on these short hulled boats. You must know the boat so well that it doesn't require much effort from you to sail/race it. On these boats you must beware that fatique will grid down your concentrations and that a vicious cicle is lurking. Loss of concentration due to fatigue => makign mistakes requiring excessive energy to correct => more fatigue => more loss of concentration => etc.

Now I really don't believe doing a distance race on a 16 foot (or F16) is dangerous or impossible, but one does need to really prepare himself for it and understand the drawbacks of a short hulled design. Compare it to doing the canonball run in a Covette or a boosted mini-cooper. Both are equally fast and in principle equally safe but the mini-cooper with its short wheel base is more demanding (nervous) to drive at full potential for long periods of time.

Wouter

Interesting comments, Wout... I could agree in principle with the concentration aspect. That's what distance races boil down to: how well a crew can stay focused.

Even on shorter distance events, the wind pattern varies (sometimes significantly) which can dramatically affect performance. From what I've seen, a well sailed 16 could keep up with a 20 in certain conditions. The variety of conditions found in a long distance (greater than 50 miles) usually widen the performance gap, alluding to John's comments regarding more work by the RC to keep track of everyone.

Not to dissuade anyone from participating in distance events like Tybee 500, but look at the *uncorrected* results from smaller distance races (like those I mention below). Most, if not all, of those races are sailed by experienced people. Even so, extrapolating the time differences over a period of 5 days shows some significant time discrepancies.

A staggered start is an interesting thought. However, using the Mug Race as an example, these starts have some challenges of their own. Conditions change throughout the day, and a "set" starting time would expose each sailor to different conditions (eg, morning starters would have to bob for a while waiting on the breeze, only to be run over by the bigger boats that start after the breeze fills in)

To go off on a tangent .... Robi - if you're really interested in distance stuff, how about Steeplechase, Hogsbreath 100, Macho Man, or even Hiram's Haul? Those would be excellent primers for something like Tybee 500 or A-1000. All require 2-up crews, and are either 1 or 2 day races. This would give you a good idea of what could feasably happen at Tybee.

Hey Mark
Thanks for the Texel update ,knew that the author had originally intended 2 windspeeds ,-great to hear they have been implimented
http://www.brandingsport.nl/index.html

It is conjecture to state {few will show} ,We do not know how many may show given an interesting larger similar Formula class oportunity to race within -and challenging events like the TYBEE 500 to race in --few I-20s did show this year , In MI locally it seems most are going to F-18 racing on Nacras F-18S and Hobie Tigers.

If any look to the great links here on catsailor ,then purely cat pages and scroll down they will see some 72 web sites and organizational events,- regional organizations,- and fleet links to Hobie class racing .

This is still the largest contingent of catsailors ,mainly dedicated to class racing ,-now experiencing Formula class racing .

It would seem to survive the current existing 20 sailors would encourage and promote a similar working Formula class based on similar I-20 specs as proposed or else inevitabley let go and allow them to go the way of so many other dead boat classes .
This has been the intent of F-20 to help promote good racing and events to race within on current existing 20s either in existing form or modified to a max class specification of matching L B W and sail area.


If not then it is time for this sailor to purchase a new 20 and seek others that wish to race similar larger beam lightweight 20s in the hopes of getting a large class on the start line for the 06 Tybee 500 and numerous other events in and work on a future lightweight larger beam F-20 class .

Carl

Carl maybe an immediate solution can be found to condense another race alltogether within this race.There a lot of wannabee racers/adventurists myself included that probably do not have a boat that could hold up for a complete week of pounding but maybe a few legs. Or cannot afford a week off for whatever reason.(I propose but do not have all the details, a race that will put more money in the pot,pull more boats and therefore maybe creating more activety and interest as the race proceeds up the coast). If there was another start with the existing I20/super-boat group of 410lb+ f20 and even the f16/f18 even H16 could do it boats for 2 or 3 legs.Maybe part of the Endurance series open fleet.Which will also accomodate some of the I20 sailors that miss some of the other parts of this series.(This is only an example).The highlight will still be focused on the Tybee, the other particepants would enhance it.Also another set of legs could be done in the OBX in the same manner. Just a thought,of course the easiest thing is to just say screw all that and just get a I20 .But The appeal of being there right in the action for many of us that have boats for a couple of legs is very tasty.

I think what is important is where we want to go with this race. Do we want an event to promote our sport to the masses or do we want a semi-extreme event that is more accessable for the average sailor to participate in. If we want to make waves with the general public then the race needs to be 1000 miles with one design or a single formula class boat with the entries being sailed by the "rock stars". This will generate the most publicity and allow for big sponsorship and TV coverage. Otherwise, To keep this as an obtainable event for the above average sailor to participate in different classes could be allowed to allow a larger fleet. Whether it's this race or another I think we need that extreme, rock star, big money sponsored, tv covered race so our sport has a reason to be covered by the media. You would think the manufacturers could eat the depreciation on a few boats they supply and that some of the big suppliers of parts could pony up some $ for a prize package and other expenses. Harken, Ronstan, Murrays, Hobie, Nacra, etc... have made a mint on catsailors over the years, they should be able to see the benefits of sponsoring a race like this. With all of the new sports channels out there TV coverage should be fairly easy to obtain if they feel it is exciting enough.
I also think that the minimum size should be 20ft. This is a race in the Atlantic and the weather can turn very extreme very quickly and the sailors are often several miles out. When the waves get big the F16's and F18's are out of their element and sailor safety should be the number one consideration. I think the 20 footers provide the best ocean sailing ability and safety to the sailors.
But whatever the final results are I have always been and will remain a big fan of these distance races. I will make sure I get over to see at least 1 or 2 legs next year.

Lance I respect your opinion and your view is the accepted one.This idea, the one about the rock stars and a few new teams has been going on for a while there has not even been consistant local coverage in this area and this is the start, there are cat and sailboat dealers that do not realize the event is even on the way. Sailing is right up there with Polo,everybody knows someone is doing it but who cares.Thats what you get when you do the same thing year after year,"The same thing".People watch and support sports for a number of reasons.It is something we can not do but respect.It is handed down maybe through the family. It is cool and gains acceptance with peers. It is what the latest fad is.It pays money.There is a nice tidy turnout at most regattas and expenses are generally covered and most everyone has a good experience.If we want the mega turnouts though like Texel which is a one leg event (I think)than its the "Mad mad mad mad world" style,early Worrell type any thing goes type excitement (not boats) that could make it happen.Chuck is a great guy to keep this going for the sailors and that is what the is for the sailors.

Think you speak for numerous sailors that would really enjoy being part of this event .

The race and weather this year was very kind and it was a very easy 5 days of racing . The best way to race is connect and team up with others that have similar interest and of course practise this season in buoys and entering the numerous shorter distance race events available .

Teams take a small time penalty when changing crews but this type of team stratetgy would allow 4 or 5 team crew to race 2 or 3 days each to finish the event .

Suggest that others interested contact one another on the private e-mail available here on catsailor ,--or post the intent or wish to race on the Tybee distance race heading section during the season .
Jake and I entered in the last few weeks only with an available boat generously offered by Mike and the SAILMAX TEAM .---So the example of how the site helps diologue and communication to connect boats crews and new teams together , that and attending local events and connecting with other race enthusiasts there .

Hope that is helpfull and we see you on the start line in the near future .

Carl

Good ideas ,-think the event in 1000 mile or 500 mile distance has always had room for the top -rock stars in the lead pack ,-and also the regular sailor who just loves the sport but has limited time and funds and not as much opportunity to race and get good ,I,ve been both --often in the same event -Any sport requires practise to maintain skill level and improve .

Highly recommend if you are planning to attend the race and have a good cat sailing background offering your expertise as gr crew for a team .-they generally provide a place to sleep and meals with the race etc etc .It is the best way to really learn about this type of racing and all it requires .
Interestingly Mike in SAILMAX now one of the {rockstars} teaming with David ,-both excellent sailors ,-was 4 years ago kind enough to be gr crew for David and I in the 1000 mile race ,-from gr crew to a good chance of winning this year .-Mike also provided an extra boat this year that enabled Jake and I to race .--good side human interest story of the event.
http://www.sailmax.biz/

Hi Dave
Hope LK Ontario is warming up ,--recall sailing the Hobie 18 Worlds there in the 80s -Toronto is a great city .

I,m one that owns an I-20 but would prefer a different hull type for distance racing in seas but with similar speed and matching sail plan of the I-20 -
Numerous racing sailors would modify their existing 20 if they could be assured of good class racing and events to enter like the TYBE 500 ,-this event could be the catalyst and motivation for a F-20 class in NA .

The list of existing 20s is here ,-and again the largest untapped continent of sailors is still among H-class ranks ,-that along with existing % in other brand class categories makes for a very large potential pool of racing F-20 TEAMS.
http://www.catsailor.com/forums/sho...;view=collapsed&sb=5&o=&vc=1

Just another regatta.
Why limit it to 1000 miles and 1 team per boat?
How about some municipal rivalry, and 1500 miles.
Team Pensacola vs Team New York vs Team Savannah (Tybee Island) vs Team Sydney vs Team Amsterdam.
One year municipal resdidency is required.
The start could be in Key West, FL and end at Newport, RI (site of old AC).
For 1500 miles say 7 teams per city, where each team sails 215 miles, or 5 teams sailing 300 miles each.
Let's see whose city has bragging rights to the best beachcat sailors in the World.



(With every team racing for the pride of their municipality,
EC 1500 will ignite patriotism attracting support beyond racing’s traditional audience?)

sail7:

That sounds like a nice idea, however logistically that would be a nightmare.

This past year the Tybee 500 invited basically all sailors including the F18's. There are hundreds of F18's around. Not one F18 team decided to enter the event this year. No Hobie 20's, No P19's, No boats that are really slower than an I20. We had one N6.0 which has been proven to be on par with the I20 on most points of sail. We had an M20 that is significantly faster than an I20 in many conditions.

What does this tell you?

It tells me that people enter with boats that have a shot at crossing the line first.

Mike Hill
www.stlouiscats.com

I don't think that's a fair statement given the lack of information that was available about the race this past year. This year's competitors were predominantly made up of sailors that had competed at least once prior and/or knew enough people to know that the race was reliably happening. If I didn't know all you guys and stay as plugged into this scene, whether or not I was sailing F18 or I20, I would have trouble justifying the time, effort, and money on a campaign for something that didn't present a reliable and assured presence.

Okay, Jake. Given your points regarding the lack of information, it looks like it boils down to marketing. How can the average club assist Chuck's efforts in getting the word out? If this is truely going to be a race for sailors, it would have to operate on a shoestring budget to keep costs down. So I'm thinking it's got to be a grass-roots marketing campaign...

Jake....

Do you know that ANY event will reliably happen.... everyone is a volunteer. Should something happen to the lead dog.... if nobody else steps forward... the event is gone. What would you prefer... a great PR job with lots of web activity or the commitment of someone you trust and who has made good in the past that a race will happen.

Mike Hill's point is well made... You don't see many F18's at ANY of the multi day distance races...much less a 500 mile event. For that matter you don't see many Hobie 16's doing one day 30 to 50 mile events either... Mike offers the best explanation.

To make the F18 class happen you will have to find a hard core of teams who just want to compete against those individuals and they happen to all race F18's or Hobie 16's whatever. The boat is a means to an end and never the lead reason ...Competition and the challenge drive participation.

Take Care
Mark

Mike, point taken, doesn`t help opening up the race to folks if they don`t respond. Perhaps advertising or a lack thereof could have something to do with it, I don`t know (NOTE : This is NOT a criticism of the organisers on my part, I don`t know all the facts. What Jake says just made me think down this line.) Just looking to find ways of possibly ensuring better attendance at future events.
It would be great if the event attracted such an interest that entries were limited to the first 20 in each class !
So how do you guys motivate sailors of all the classes to become involved ?
I tripped over a thread on the 2003 Hobie 20 & Tiger Continentals, which had 23 Hobie 20`s and 17 Tigers, I`m sure if the race was actively marketed at these guys you could get better attendance, unless these classes have dried up in the last 2 years ? Hobie 21`s, SC-20`s, ARC-21`s, where are these guys ? Perhaps if the race was marketed and geared more toward the "above average weekend sailor" rather than the "rock-stars", it might get more attention. And the rock-stars would still be there anyway.

I guess you can put the offer out there, but if no-one takes you up on it, nothing good can come out of it.

Steve

Not completly true. This years Great Texas Catamaran Race will have at least three F18 boats, probably 4. The 2003 race was won by out local "Rock Star" John Tomko (with his wife Tiffany) on a Hobie Tiger. A Nacra F18 (Team T squared) was second in 2004.

We also have the Ruff Riders regatta which is over 50 miles and has attracted plenty of Hobie 16s

Chris.

Yes that's fine.

But would you say that you have a hard core group of distance racers who want to race F18's and that you as a regatta organizer can count on at your event year after year?

If people are given a choice... they want the fastest ride available. (Mike Hill's point) Before Mike Worrel flamed out he believed that the events growth would only happpen on an 18 foot platform for two reasons. 1) Popularity in the EU. 2) More teams could form that fit the weight requirements of the 18 foot boats Ultimately he saw that growth was likely in the 18 foot boats.

Therfore he intended to force the issue by running the race exclusively on an 18ft platform. Many teams strongly disagreed and planned to sit out the W1000 and the Tybee 500 was born for these guys. In the end, Bimare made the best offer of charter boats with the 18HT and the rest is a sad history. The Tybee 500 continues on primarily focused on the 20 footers.

Have things changed?
Is there a ground swell to run the event on 18 footers?
Is there still a key core group insistent on 20 footers and opposed to the 18's?
Is there a groundswell to run the event with just one class to focus on.
Can the marketing work with several classes overlapping at the finish?

Great Texas has had (and probably will) had F18 turnout...Steeplechase had F18 turnout (I was on one of four)...Round the Island will have F18 turnout (I'm planning on it) and while RTI is not necessarily a two-day race, it has been everytime I've done it! ...etc.



Sure I do! I don't mean to critisize - I'm bringing this up only as it pertains to attendance. I don't fault the organizers but if you plan for people far away to attend your event, you need to have up-to-date information available as early as possible.

Plans did fall through for Chuck and gang which unfortunately left them not getting host hotels on the website until 3 or 4 weeks before the event. The actual start and finish line information didn't show up until two days before the race. All I saw for 11 months was a website with last year's information on it (including "Participating Teams") and then hear that half of what was originally planned was cancelled due to lack of attendance. The whole thing felt secretive and made me feel certain that we were going to get to Florida and have 5 boats to race against - or worse, that they were going to pull the plug at the last minute. Fortunately we were committed regardless as was everyone else that did compete (and we were very glad we did - it was a ball!).

All I'm saying is to take this year's lack of open class with the understanding that new people, people not fully in "the loop", and people from overseas would not have been enticed the amount information that was available prior to this year's event.

Sorry - I re-read your post and I mostly agree....I mis-read it. It is noteable, however, that the Worrell was going to have a huge turnout on the 18HT just before it was cancelled.

There's nothing that will get somebody on a new platform faster than racing the piss out of an old one.Dealers wanna' sell more boats? Organizers wanna' larger fleet.Be open to a little more variety.It may not happen right away but the formula is the same right on down to golf clubs.User friendly events.

Hi Jake
Agree -as did several teams and others at the event ,--recall talking to Jamie and Kenny at the new facility at Jupiter Beach ,-More specifically the need for a current updated TYBEE 500 web site during the seasons racing and encouragement for teams to sign in or just verbal commitment of teams that intend on racing in the 06 TYBEE 500 and the boat type they intend to race was discussed ,-and is needed .
Jamie and crew intended to race a Tornado as did another team until the other 500 fell thru and their sponsor Alexaders on the Bay with it ,being located near the northern portion ,--great restaurant with lots of 1000 race memerobilia.
Listing the numerous teams including potentially 2 teams from Austrailia as Hoop mentioned and numerous others noted plus the possible return of 05 teams - Sailmax teams-Key Sailing -Tybee -Tybean teams -Morada -Velocity -Spacecoast -St Luis -Windy Hill -Coconut Grove sails -and several others that already mentioned or intend on racing in 06

This leads to more entries and builds upon itself renewing old race rivalries that are old friends {on the beach}
As you noted the web and also teams intending to race in 06 plus boat type is needed and presents a definative presence for numerous other teams considering the 06 Tybee 500 .

The predominant point of sail has an effect too. The east coast northwards runs are spinn oriented, right? Up the ditch was more of a reach and reflected diverse boats. Spinns are a diversity killer. Light air downwind is a real sleeper for non spin heavier or short boats. On a blowing reach, anyone can win, which therefore gives first timers a boost and makes them come back. The serious bigger boats may get hammered (relatively speaking), but if we are looking for attendance, we must gear for joe average to finish up feeling good. Unfortunately? the serious sailors are also the ones with enough get up and go to organise an event, and own a long light spinn equiped.

I would be interested in doing the Tybee 500 next year in my SC20 but I would need to know if my boat is eligible well before the end of the year to look for sponsorship and prepare for it. I just assumed that my boat was ineligible this year until I heard that tornados were eligible.

I have been sailing over 30 years and the last 15 of it have been in the ocean off of Palm Beach. I just started racing and I have done most of the major Florida distance races the last two years. We are starting to come up to speed and I have done around 300 race miles so far this year.

Major note: The sooner I know of boat eligibility, the better my chances of attending. Two months won't cut it.

Bonnie, Just who were these women? MAn I just got to get down there even if it's only as a spectator!

I made the Jupiter stop. There were a bevy of babes and I suggest you make the trip next year.

Congrates to Steve and PI Sailing team on this growing event -http://www.pisailing.com/PISailing

It looks like there are a variety of entries -
A Hobie 20 -Arc 21- 2 Nacra 6/0s -2 Formula 18s -a Tiger and Nacra F-18 -6 iNTER 20S and 3 TEAMS T B A

Great to see varied entries ,-It would be greater still to see a few more 20s plus a few more F-18S to make 2 classes .

As numerous sailors do ,Wish I could make it for the June 6 start ,--

Congrates again Steve .


2005 Great Texas Registered Participants
Below is the list of registered sailors for 2005. Count Team Skipper Crew Boat Home Town Commitment
1 Sailboat Shop Austin Rohrer - Holt Hobie 20 Austin Registered
2 T-Squared Tyrone Nacra F18 Houston Registered
3 Harken Tomko Shafer I20 San Antonio Orlando Registered
4 PI Sailing Piche - McCulley Inter 20 Austin Registered
5 Texas Performance Racing 2 Mimlitch - Billings TBD Dallas Registered
6 TBD Green - McDaniel Tiger Seabrook, TX Registered
7 Yost Auto Yost Ball I20 Austin Registered
8 Site Controls Beuerlein Yoder Nacra 6.0 Austin Registered
9 Cat Alley Banks - James ARC 21 Houston Registered
10 Texas City Dike Yacht Club Bouton Geery Nacra 6.0 Houston Registered
11 Dallas Webster - Foxall TBD Dallas Registered
12 Chums I Wicklund Aquila TBD Santa Barbara, CA Registered
13 Chums II Morris McQuilken Tiger Cottonwood, AZ Registered
14 Horizon Sportswear Kuc Deckard I20 Austin Registered
15 Roy Squared Newberry Shaw I20 Seabrook, TX Registered
16 Tybee Island Casey Pierce I20 Orlando, Miami Registered
17 Key Sailing I K. Newkirk Holmes I20 Pensacola, FL Registered
18 Key Sailing II H. Newkirk Trinque I20 Pensacola, FL Registered

Tad and Trey, You guys did very well the final leg! You should have been back in time to be a part of that action!

My memory isn't so great; but as far as scantily clad women feeding Jake and Carl grapes...all I recall was a shirtless Chris Zander and David Strickland with bags of fruit at the end of the day!

I guess all those hours on the water were taking their toll. Poor Jake must've been halucinating due to dehydration, or some sea induced hypnosis!

The SAILMAX teams were great fun ,though did not see many meirmaids ,except perhaps poolside after the days racing ,--though after a week of long days of racing and 500 miles travel some of the mermaids poolside did mention something about Dave starting to look pretty good ,--photo per Bonnie --http://www.sailmax.biz/gallery/images/640_+DSC05852.jpg

great fun -thanks again team SAILMAX crew.
Carl

Hey gang, back on topic questions
Have the Tybee organizers been reading this thread?
Has there been any discussion to them about including other classes, taking for example the Texas Race, with so many entrants?
How about letting other sailors race in diferent legs, instead of the entire race?
How about the Formula classes F16, F18 and F20? any word on what will be allowed in the following years or even 06?

Hopefully these questions will not get lost into the depths of 11100101001s of the internet.

I have opinions about one design vs. open class just like everyone else here. I pretty much agree with those who feel that an 18 foot boat is the advisable minimum and I prefer a one design event...for lots of varying reasons previously discussed. That being said, I don't care nearly so much about that decision as the point of making the event (in whatever form) the best, most fun, safest, etc., that it can be. I definitely agree that, whatever decision is to be made as regards these particulars, it should be made sooner than later in order to allow teams to adequately prepare for next year; not only in physically training and practicing with their boats but fund raising and setting up an available support team as well. I would love to see more international sailors/teams next year and more time for preparation would be especially beneficial to them.



I do hope that Chuck is tuned into the forum. I owe him a big Thank You for the great job that he and the whole volunteer staff did at this year's event so I will mention this thread to him when I email him just in case a million others haven't done so already! Also, he said that he already knew the dates for next year's race but I don't see them posted on the Tybee 500 site yet. Does anyone remember what they were? I'd like to be able to include that information in my sponsorship seeking materials. To that end, I'm of the opinion that any available updated information posted on the official web site would greatly enhance/improve the image of the event and therefore help teams who are trying to raise sponsorship monies and make decisions as regards potential attendance for 2006. Just my behind-the-scenes two cents.

Great picture Bonnie
thanks again

We each only get our individual perspective on race events ,-some as organizers ,-some from the beach ,-some on the water ,-many from reading web sites and the reports here on catsailor ,-it is only often after when individual race teams see the web sites like SAILMAX ,s and other teams that we begin to recieve information on the event as a whole and realize all the numerous different aspects and people involved in numerous ways that allow an event like this to occur.

As noted and with the momentum and publicity the event recieves it is important to keep an updated TYBEE 500 website -
Suggested by numerous others was the need to list teams with intent to race in the 06 event now ,-along with boat type ,-that encourages others to enter and builds on itself .
Noted was lack of attendance and support by potential open class race teams ,--also the obvious of only 9 I-20 teams --
The solution is more communication lines open --Ways of helping more potential teams get together with crew -gr crew -boats available !! etc ,-and involvement -helping racing teams commitment to race .

I,m sure the race organizers skim through the opinions here on catsailor ,--think they are looking for real commitments from race teams .

Recommend teams contact the Tybee 500 organizers and offer info on intent to race -crew info -boat type info -along with offer of helping with other aspects inc web site --photos --input on classes -rules aspects ,-team web sites -travel locations ,-community support from checkpoint locations --local sailing club and fleet support ,---dinners barbques and social events ,-etc .

There is a topic section here on catsailor for distance racing -Tybee 500 etc ,suggest potential crew and gr crew sign in there also with interest in the event.

CDR

Maybe bringing back the old forum would help .C'mon Rick the old forum was an educational bonanza !

Damn, I don't know who the hell those guys are, but they're both wearing nice shirts, eh!?!?!
JC

What is a one design?