Carbon fiber a comptip?

Interested to find out if anybody has looked into or actually done this.

I have Hobie 17 with the usual bendy tapered comptip. A square top sail puts more power at the top of the mast but also introduces an element of overbend.

Anyway, interested to hear what others have experienced.

Sail fast, Tom G

I thought about this once so I will take a stab

It would be tough

If you just added a stiff uniform carbon skin, the skin would be stiffer and would take all the load until it cracked/broke.

If you add enough carbon, to take the load, the old comptip is useless weight

A nonuniform reinforcement, basically a flexible mast that would take part of the load, would be tough to design.

If I were doing it, I would either

vacuum bag thin (2-4 oz?)glass to the outside

add an existing mast (windsurfer tip) to the inside as a sleeve. Attaching it at the metal mast joint, top of the comptip, and any hounds. This transfers bending as compression to the metal mast.

I guess what I am saying, you can do it but it will not be easy.

Hi Guys
Yes -John Lindal here in Mich did this some 15 years ago on his winning 18 sq LCD .
a C F top section mast on alum lower --epoxied in -
John brought it out of storage and raced a few years back --the CF comptip still like new .
Ian L his son is in San Diego and you might reach John through CRAM -Contacts -
http://www.websitemagic.com/cram/
hope that helps
Carl R

If you replaced your Hobie 17 composite fiberglass tip with a carbon comptip, it would negate the purpose of the comptip, which is to keep people from getting electrocuted if their mast contacts an overhead powerline. Carbon, as I understand it, is an excellent conductor of electricity.

If you put a carbon tip on your mast, it would not be class legal. So if you are not going to race in class and are going to race in open class or not going to race at all, why not just get a whole new mast, designed properly for the boat?

Seems silly to have a two-part mast if you don't have to.

I think he's talking about simply applying carbon to his existing comptip to make it stiffer.

Most of the Hobie sails are shaped with the comp-tip in mind. Stiffening this will probably change the way the sail depowers.

Doesn't matter, Jake. If he puts carbon on his comptip, he is basically eliminating the entire purpose of the comptip as far as the company, the class and the insurance company are concerned.

....which no other sailboat manufacturer has to adhere to.

That's irrelevant. It's just the way it is.

If someone is not going to race their Hobie one-design, I cannot understand why they would want to keep a mast with a comptip if they have an alternative.

And the comptip is already heavier than an equivalent section of aluminum mast, so why would you want to add even more weight to it just to stiffen it? More power but more weight at the top, so then you will soon be wishing the mast was bendier again to bleed off that power. The boat will capsize faster, and turtle faster, and be harder to right.

Just get a whole new mast and be done with it. Or at least put a bob on the top.

Jake hit the nail on the head. Only interested in hearing others point of view when a comptip (or any mast) is too bendy for a square top sail. I already race open with an H17 so modifying an existing mast could be done.

As Maughn17 mentioned Hobie is the only manufacturer that uses a comptip. As I recall that was a result of litigation. That addressed a symptom. The problem was with power lines too low at launching areas. I do not believe that problem has yet been resolved nationwide

Anyone hear of a mast coming in contact with a power line recently?

Sail on, Tom G

I heard of two last year - one in New England (no major injury except to the boat) and another in Key Largo ... I think the Key Largo incident was a construction worker who was moving a boat around at a resort and ended up loosing a hand. Or was that one more than a year ago? Mary?

It does happen and bitch and complain as we might about the comptip...there's no way to tell how many electrocutions have been avoided since nobody records 'near misses'.

With regard to modifying your existing mast, I would locate a similar profile from another boat (older/smaller Nacras come to mind) and modify the base casting and boom mount to work with the existing setup. Adhering carbon to the plastic comptip would have an unpredictable outcome. You could sleeve another piece of mast in place of the comptip but you will end up with a stiffer area at the point of the sleeve which might be worse with regard to performance.

It happened to one of the JY's in the club two years back. Luckily the boat was being moved around a campsite on a trailer with the mast up. It hit the lines and bang snap.

And Mary, my point about mentioning the fact that Hobie is the only one that makes "comp tips" is the fact that if electrical insulation was such a big issue that he would need to bear in mind to preserve that property whilst making his modifications.... numerous other manufacturers would be producting non-conductive masts. However, they aren't, because they realize (as does hobie I'm sure) that the increased performance is more important to the customer base than protection from powerlines.

I mean who goes into the showroom to hear the salesman say: "yes we incorporated this comptip on the top of the mast so we can save you from your own stupidity when raising the mast around powerlines. That'll be $11,000 Please."

I got lucky - me and a very well-known and savvy skipper were sooooo focused on getting our boat back on the trailer and getting on the road a few years ago after Tradewinds, that we actually MOVED THE ORANGE CONES AND TAPE that were placed to indicate an overhead line (who put this %#@&! here??), and then we tracked right into it.

It was a phone line, and we agreed to never speak to each other about it again. Its not just idiots... or maybe it is and there are more of us than you think.

ps - Good luck with your project. Take pictures.

I've had a few close run-ins myself where a comp-tip may almost have been useful. Fortunately, I realized what was getting ready to happen but only within inches. It can really happen to anyone in un-familiar territory.

Sound Effect

It can happen to anyone. I know I've become so use to sailing at sailing clubs that I don't look up for powerlines anymore. The problem comes when I go somewhere that is not a sailing club. You really have to remind yourself to look up. I remember last year at Gilberts being very careful around some powerlines.

It really is easy to forget because we are such creatures of habit. I never look up at my sailing club because I know there are no powerlines. This is a habit that is hard to break when you get away from the club.

Mike Hill
www.stlouiscats.com

A friend dropped his Stiletto mast when the forestay came in contact with a power line. For the uninitiated, a Stiletto mast is 36' (Standard) and weighs as much as some of the lighter cats out there. When that comes down you don't want to be in the way. Luckily no one got hurt but I think that mistake cost about 3 to 4K to correct. Always look up, especially in an area you're not used to.

Clayton
S-27

Dr. Ewen Thompson, formerly of the University of Florida Lightning Center has opinions about carbon masts. In his experience seeing them after lightning strikes is that they are NOT good conductors. He indicates that there is poor conductivity, particularly for the high voltage and huge ampere load, causing them to heat locally and basically explode. The result is not pretty.
However the question is open in my mind- 1. You have an poorly conducting mast and or mast tip up in the air. 2. A possible alternative is a well conducting aluminum mast + heavy copper conductor + big copper plate grounded to salt water (the safest- Thompson would probably bet on that). 3. But if you have an aluminum mast with NO grounding to salt water- Where does a strike go then?

"Other types of conductors need to be considered: Per the ABYC, a carbon fiber reinforced wood mast or a carbon fiber reinforced composite mast will not be treated as though it is a conductor."

From "Lightning and Boats" website maintained by U. Florida as a public service since 1991. Dr. Thompson is now at ece@marinelightning.com

He told me that one experiment- "a copper wire carried by rocket into a charged cloud experiment to generate a strike" would only cost $200,000. Any takers?

OSYC, July 2004 - we saw a Hobie 20 that had been struck by lightning on the comp tip. The only cat with a comp tip on the beach (amongst over 20 other cats). The comptip was peeled open like a banana. You could see where the arc jumped from the mast down to the front cross bar, back through the port hull before emerging through the side of the hull to the trailer side roller. Completly burnt through the hull - not pretty.

Maybe the comptip wasn't introduced to save us from our selves. Ever wonder why no other Co. used anything like it. Certianly people with prindles and nacras hit power lines. Could be Hobie benefited some other way by going to the comptip. Does the term U.S. grant money mean anything?

As far as the construction of it concerned, after drilling into it to install spin tang, seeing one busted in half and one blown up by lighting....It seems to be the same material the EPO's were made of. Not plastic. I'm of course talking about mast section not the track.

Sorry Mike ,but your "Big Brother" paranoia is not warranted.
The fact that the Hobie comp-tip was the result of a negotiated settlement of a lawsuit is well established.
Of course Hobie Corp, in their infinite marketing wisdom, describes the damn thing as a performance enhancement.

There was a similar (operator error) lawsuit against Nacra.
They chose to fight it and won.


About the original question.

You might be able to take a piece of a broken carbon mast, that matched the section, and make a comp-tip out of it.

I have to concur. Of course carbon will conduct if the electrical pressure (voltage) is high enough. Most auto spark plug wires use fiberglass cords dipped in carbon dust for the conductor. As long as there are multi tens of thousands of volts, you get current flow. OTOH lightning has lots of voltage and current so instantly heats up carbon/epoxy to destruction.
I work in aerospace and have repaired/refinished quite a few carbon fiber aircraft parts. I noticed that they always have so-called 'diverter' strips built in, just like fiberglass parts on airplanes. In this pic, the diverter strips can be seen as radial lines on the fiberglass nose radome:

http://www.airliners.net/open.file/843505/M/

These are thin strips of copper bonded at or just below the surface at intervals along the surface. They are there to conduct lightning strikes back to metal structure. With airplanes, lightning strikes are not a remote possibility but inevitable. Sometimes an aircraft can be struck seveal times during one flight.
If carbon conducted OK, they would not bother to use the diverters on carbon fiber parts. So it's not a conductor like a metal. Certainly not near as good a conductor as aluminum.

Jimbo

Sam,grant money has nothing to do with paranoia,big brother???

What I'm saying if a Co. that was in trouble and needed money (and would you agrue they weren't at the time?) could get it by way of a grant for coming up with something like a comptip would they do it?

Well documented lawsuit.....whatever. Are you sure you know everything that went on with this issue? Of all the sailboat builders in the world, Hobie was the only one to cave on this issue?

This is not something I made up, rather heard about.

Do I have this right? Hobie can sell boats made in Europe here with soild masts but they can't build them here with solid masts......Food for thought.

And yeah, at the time I was ticked that I had to cut up a perfectly good mast to race.

I can image that carbon masts are bad conductors. While carbon fibre will conduct very well the epoxy "matrix" (or whatever you guys call it) does not. So in basis the carbon fibres are inbedded in isolator material The current will first have to jump these obstructions to get to the fibre and then cross those layers once again to get to your hands. At very high voltages this can be done, but only with alot of heat creation. This probably explains why it burns up before really conducting alot of current.

It all makes sense to me.

Wouter

Ok, so who's running their carbon fiber mast under a power line for a test?

You heard it from someone else that heard it from someone else... it must be true right? Not. There was no "grant" involved.

The CompTip was a response to people dieing from mast-contact electrecutions. Hobie Cat made this decision to solve the problem... not just defend the result in court as other companies chose to do.

Hobie Cat had an obligation to protect its customer base. To do that, Hobie Cat also gave away tens of thousands of retro fit kits at a huge expense.

The unfortunate side effect was changes to the class equipment, but less than 10% of the boats are or were involved in racing. Class racing could not be a determining factor.

Remember... we are talking about US courts and sue happy Americans. It has not been an easily reached agreement to allow the Tiger and FX to be sold here with their standard masts. The fact that they are Built by a different company... Hobie Cat France makes a huge difference.

A good source,and a paulsible story. I really don't think the person would make up something like this.

Just something I heard and thought would be interesting to discuss here and find out if it was true. I guess Matt cleared it up.

He is, afterall, pretty much an authority!

By the way, only a dry clean comptip is a good insulator.

An old comptip that has absorbed moisture and salt is probably about like a carbon mast.

Matt,
That is total corporate B.S.
I am sure your bosses will be proud.
We will never know the details of the lawsuit because it is locked up in a non-disclosure agreement, but some facts are public knowledge.
That Hobie has never advertised the comptip as a safety feature. On the contrary they advertise it as a "performance" feature.
That Hobie was owned by Coleman Inc., a public company, at the time of the introduction of the comptip.
That all public companies are required by federal law to uphold their fiduciary responsibilities to their stockholders.
Which means that ALL of their design, production, marketing, etc, etc, actions must be for improving the value or profitability of the company.
History has shown that anytime the officers of a publically held company do anything or even say anything which hurts the bottom line, they can be sued and will usually loose.
Any retrofit of a "safety feature" has always been brought about because the bean-counters figured that it was cheaper for the company to fix problems than to fight, not necessarily loose, lawsuits.
Giving away comptips hurt the bottom line.


A perfect example is the exploding Ford Pintos.
Documents stolen from Ford Corp. showed that they had figured out that it would cost many millions of dollars to reteofit a less than ten dollar safety feature on the existng Pinto but it would cost half as much to pay off the burn victims and their families.
The documents were disallowed at trial, so Ford won and didn't have to fix the old Pintos.
THAT IS THE COPORATE WORLD.

It often cuts the other way, that is, unfairly against a large corporation or industry. General aviation is an industry that has been hurt unfairly, for instance, by product liability lawsuits.
Piper aircraft went out of business a few years back *precisely and exclusively* because of their policy of fighting each and every product libility lawsuit that came along.
Low sales were not the problem; Piper had over one BILLION dollars in backlogged firm orders when they went under! (And remeber they only made little airplanes!)
The 'last straw' lawsuit involved a single engine Piper that crashed shortly after T/O when the engine failed. Piper did not make the engine, of course, but Piper was ajudged liable since they "failed to provide a second engine to permit a safe return to the airport in case of engine failure". How freaking ridiculous is that?!
If we followed that logic, soon there would be NO beach cats (except homebuilt) beacause legal precedents would inevitably arise attacking each and every shortcoming of the class when compared to a 'state of the art' transport category vessel. That's where GA was headed; thankfully the congress intervened. Otherwise the cheapest airplane you could buy right now would be the cheapest transport category aircraft which meets all gov't safety stds. and cost about $4 million.
That would be like suing the maker of a beach cat because it does not have a motor to ensure saftey in case of becalming, or life boats in case of sinking or WHATEVER! If you operate one of these boats, then you know and hopefully assess and manage these risks properly within the context of your life, rather than relying on blamesmanship after the fact.

Just One Man's Opinion

Jimbo

Interesting perspectives and info from all of you.

Now wondering, with tongue in cheek, as one may conclude:

1. Comptips are of questionable value as a safety feature.
2. Comptips detract from optimal sail performance.
3. Lawyers love to make money, pursue public/private corporations, have little to no interest in public safety and will gleefully pursue a lawsuit to a worthless (to the public) outcome.
4. Legally, rectifying the problem with the utility company's is far too big a challenge for any lawfirm.
5. And, you cannot litigate common sense.

OK...Jake, let's get a bunch of attorneys to test out your carbon fiber mast with a high voltage line theory. Solves one problem.

Sail on, Tom G

Sounds like a job for them boys on Mythbusters

Jimbo

Oooooooooo....that would be cool...Poor 'ol Buster would get it again!

Sam, your ingorance on the introduction / marketing of the Comptip is appalling.



Oh, really? And your source of this information is . . . ?
Another case of "I read it on the Internet, so it must be true." Why don't you ask Doug Campbell, the president of Hobie Cat at the time (1984-85), who is still very much involved with the class? (He was on the jury at the Tiger Worlds just a few weeks ago)

Better yet, I'll talk to Doug face-to-face when I see him at the 16 NA's next month. He'd probably think you're some sort of tin-foil hat wacko.

Or why don't you track down Walt Millar, who was Hobie Cat's corporate attorney at the time, specializing in product liability defense, particularly electrocution cases?



"Never" is a very absolute term. A quick Google search for "Comptip" blows that "fact" away. Right now, I'm looking at the article in the Hobie Hotline (Jan/Feb '86) that introduces the Comptip and the retrofit program. The title? "This Tip Could Save Your Life" In the article, Doug Campbell admits that there is a slight performance loss in moderate air.

I will agree that they currently market it for both "safety and high-wind performance," which strangely enough, is true. (Nobody ever said marketing = truth)

You know what? Comptips have been around for twenty years. They're not going away. Get over it already.

And stop slagging Matt Miller, who's done more to improve the quality of the boats coming out of Oceanside than anybody before or since. You don't know him or his bosses. I do - and what you imply is tin-foil hat rediculous.

Flame on, Sam the Troll.

I think you are being a little too harsh on the fellow. He just loves a good conspiracy. If there's none to be found, then just create one!

Here's great page where he can get his fill:

http://www.alternet.org/story/14873

(I think I saw the comptip thing WAY down toward to bottom of the list)

Just stirrin the pot,

Jimbo

Ok Matt,
If I am wrong have Matt Miller et al step up and state unequivocally that Hobie, in any of it's company names, was not sued by someone, or there family, who was electrocuted.
And that there was no agreement which caused them to put on the comp-tip and or the "non-conducting" tller extension..
No half-truths, no vague comments, no marketing B.S., just simple straightforward facts.
Just the truth.

What "quality of boats"?
If what they produce now is an improvement, I am surprised any of the previous boats floated.
The only quality is being produced in europe.
I bought a new sail for my Hobie 17 last year, CRAP, CRAP, CRAP
It is cheap, flimsy, one-sided mylar which will only last for a few years.
I pay the same square-foot price as the Tigers, but we are stuck with CRAP

You childish name-calling has zero effect on me.
You should know that by now.
If any company representatives don't want to be challenged when they post B.S., they shouldn't not post.

Keep sucking up to Hobie Corp., maybe they will let you be president of IHCA next.

Sam, I love you , man. Slow down when you read, though.

1) I never (there's that absolute word again) said that Hobie Cat hasn't been sued for electrocution accidents - on the contrary, they have been many times. I question the existence of a non-disclosure agreement, and requested proof.

And I do plan to talk with Doug Campbell next month re: the Comptip.

2) The 17's sail is mylar taffeta ("one-sided") as required by the specifications submitted to ISAF when it became an international class back in 1989. The material was state of the art back then, but isn't anymore. I bought a new 17 sail in 2002 and was quite pleased with it's shape and quality of construction (2 top 5 finishes in the North Americans). If you have specific problems with your sail, then I suggest you contact the warranty dept at Hobie Cat - Matt Miller. And don't be such a dick about it. You can catch more flies with honey than with vinegar.

3) Defending people whom I consider my friends is not "sucking up."

4) Hobie Cat doesn't have the political pull within IHCA to get anybody elected president. Besides, I have no desire for that position.

>2. Comptips detract from optimal sail performance.<

This did not happen with the TheMightyHobie18 when the C-tip came out. I raced the TheMightyHobie18 during the transition period, and WHEN I switched to the Comptip it clearly made the boat faster, both upwind and down, forcing others to quickly upgrade.



This was not true of the H16. Perhaps, they could have worked on the sail shape more, but would have obsoleted the current fleet of sails.

In the late 90's the top H20 skippers were radically recutting the luff curve for the comptip as the C-tip would prematurely flatten the top of the sail. Did Hobie finally came around and recut their sail to match what the experts where doing to theirs?

Wasn't there a tread on flexible tips for gust response? From '76-'80+ the Tornado's (D or E section) had quit a bit of tapper for gust response.

Now with spinnakers it is a new ballgame.

Not directly related, but a buddy of mine flew into powerlines with a carbon fibre hangglider, it bridged the wires, heated up, started melting and dropping balls of burning goo, started a brush fire under him, leading to him cutting his hang straps, falling about 30 feet into the fire and rolling to safety, bruised and scorched. Don't know what this proves, but it was pretty amazing to watch!

Never heard that one... We have made no changes to the 20 patterns in recent history. The sails on every boat including and after the Hobie 17 were designed for the CompTip.

Sam, I am never sure where you are coming from. I gave you all the information you needed and honestly. No one here has ever said we did not get sued... of course we did. We had the "deep pockets". You are truly “beating a dead horse” when arguing the decision about CompTips. Like Matt Bounds said… that was 20 years ago.

By the way, Hobie Cat spearheaded a national campaign to get power companies to raise their lines as well. There was a lot of effort put in to this issue. Many of the same people at the top of the company back then are still here. They are truly caring people and I can tell you with complete confidence that protecting people, not just corporate money, was a major force in this change to the CompTip.

It is well recognized that USA boats are of the finest made World Wide. We proved that at the 16 Worlds in Cancun. Each 16 Worlds before that, for several events, had big problems with boats or hardware... our hosted event with USA boats came through with huge acclaim from the international sailors. Virtually ZERO breakdown points had to be awarded for the event. There had also been a lot of concern voiced by those international sailors that CompTips were not up to the demanding use and conditions of international competition. Wrong... they were stellar! The 16 sailed perfectly with them. The difference in performance to the all aluminum mast is negligible and that depends on the conditions. Yes, high-wind sailing has actually shown an advantage using the tip.

Sam, I am still confused as to why you tend to bash our company. I am sorry for whatever has upset you in your past dealing with us.

Interesting what you say about the 20 mains. My 20 (a '94, with significant repairs to the starboard hull for some kind of bulkhead separation and cracking BTW) had a main that had been recut by the original owner. I always liked the shape of that sail and how it set and performed - it seemed to behave differently from other people's sails, as to what it liked for settings and such, and it seemed fast even for its age. I had always assumed the recut was to correct any manufacturing issues, but your comment now leads me to believe he did the mod you're mentioning. I had always heard that there was a difference between the cut of the original 20 sails and the newer ones, with different tuning techniques to get the best of either. I could never tell if that was legend or truth, but I knew my sail was different...

On sails and shape - the original main for my Hobie-18 was horrible. I had to measure out the sail, and each batten required different tensions (some loose, some crammed in hard) to get a near consistent shape. I then bought a brand new main from Hobie that was absolutely beautiful - battens ony tight enough to take out the wrinkles gave a wonderful shape. So if things were bad, they certainly got better.

My 18 had an all metal mast - even though I had the comptip I never installed it, mostly because I knew I was going to add a spinnaker. That boat was raced open class successfully, the only 18s I came up against never seemed to offer much in way of competition, so I don't know if a good comptip boat would have been faster.

There were a few changes that come to mind on the H20 main. When we took over from Skip Elliott for one. I am wondering if 20 sailors are still modifying the main or was this just to older sail cuts?

Interesting and provocative discussion guys...seems non-comptip mast sails may, at times, be recut to better match the bend characteristics of the comptip and result in a faster performing platform. OK sounds plausible.

Now, if a newest technology sail material & cut were designed (ie., square top or whatever) to optimize a given boats performance would it be enhanced, or otherwise, on a H17 comptip mast?

That mast does not have diamond wires. I believe, all together different than the TheMightyHobie18 and the H20.

Consider open fleet and with all due respect to class racing rules.

It has been interesting to research the evolution of the Toronado class with masts & sails into higher performing boats.

Again, being that the H17 is near and dear to my heart (a big thank you to Hobie for continuing to build the boat, I am a fan!) would/could the governing association ever be petitioned to allow modifications to a higher level of performance? A stretch, I know, but only wondering.

Sail on, Tom G

PS. Feel free to share any pics available from the carbon fiber hang glider incident...:)?

Just a continuation of Sam's usual style, which doesn't seem to be too popular

He's a good multi-tasker though - he's busy trolling on the yahoo beach cats group at the same time (see thread "Dark Side").

GIS for "Sam Evans":


Nice . . . Comptips.

OK...Ok...That's just wrong. I'm hoping that didn't come from your personal collection!

Life is like Google Image Search.



"ya nevah know what your gonna get"

Perhaps there is a bond with "Triumph the Insult Comic Dog"?

http://www.mavericktimes.com/triumph.html

http://www.geocities.com/bobl1961/

http://publish.uwo.ca/~sjohn7/right_cliplisting.htm

Intresting, authority is questioned and a few people decide to answer buy trashing. Doing the same or worst.

I'll be clear I don't believe I've heard the truth here about the topic I raised.

Some of you think your going to get answers from someone who used to work at H.C..........REALLY?

I think it's clear that some of you miss or need the old forum.

I have talked to some of the principles involved in the lawsuit. As far as I could tell, it was just someone upset over the loss of a friend, going after the power company and the boat builder. They went after the boat builder on the grounds that "the technology existed to eliminate the problem but the boat builder was not including it for profit reasons".

As I understand it, Coleman settled by agreeing to change the mast because they did not want a long court battle with their name on it (they had something else going on) and they did not want any big cash settlements.

I think some of the people involved expected Hobie to adopt a fiberglass mast. They were not engineers and there were some small boats with unstayed fiberglass masts. The dealers were saying these were safe from overhead power lines. For those of you who do not know, a 1980's fiberglass mast for a Hobie would be very heavy.

The comptip was adopted because it was the most practical method of meeting the agreement.

To me it seems the comptip came about because of an agreement between 2 parties, one did not know much about catamaran sailing and one that did not know much about engineering and manufacturing.

Does anybody know how much more a comptip weighs than the equivalent section of aluminum mast that was on a Hobie originally?

And, does anybody know: If you have two Hobie 18's, one with a comptip and one with the original, solid aluminum mast, and if both masts are well sealed and do not contain water, which of the boats is most likely to turtle (or which will turtle the fastest) when they capsize in identical sea and wind conditions? And which is the hardest to right?

It is really a marginal difference, if any. Masts have always varied in weight by several pounds depending on the extrusion. I have owned 5 different 16s in my history and was racing heavily during the transition. I do not recall a big difference in stepping weight or sailing characteristics. I don't recall weighing one though or comparing that carefully.

Take away that big head casting, allow for the tappered thickness in glass as it goes up the tip and I would bet that inertia is very similar. In racing the boat there really is little difference and certainly higher winds have shown to favor the slightly different bend at the top.

Mary,
When I had my 20 with the tapered comptip, the advice I had always heard was to get on the righting line ASAP after a capsize, because the tapered shape of the comptip didn't have as much bouyancy. The few times I did capsize that boat I followed that advice, and it did indeed feel like if we weren't on the line quick it would have turtled. Since I never put the comptip on my 18, I can't compare directly there, but the 18 with the solid aluminum mast (not tapered) felt more stable on its side than the 20 did. My 6.0 (fairly decent sized section, no taper) feels solid as a rock after a capsize, granted I've only done it twice. Out of the three boats, the 18 seemed to take more effort to right, with the 20 next, and the 6.0 the easiest.

With respect to the 20 comments, I think the difference is because of the tapered shape, not the fact that it's a comptip.