Australian F18 Nats- Ashby dominating!!!

Oz F18 web site

Question: Why does Ashby, an Aussie legend, sail a Hobie Tiger and not a Capricorn or other Aussie brand boat? Does he have a contract from Hobie or does he believe the Tiger is the best of the pack?

Mike.

Tiger's sweeping the top 5 at the Oz F18 Titles just like they did at the F18 NA's. Are they the best of the pack or is that where the competition is? Competitive sailors gravitate toward the competitive boats. Tiger's rule.

He's under Hobie contract. Hobie has deep pockets for their pro team. Coming out of the Formula 18 Worlds the Capricorn is considered the new hot design.
Ted

With the bonus matrix having been blown up by their winning margin at the F18 NAs, we spent our deep pocket wad on Greg and Jacques this year... just kidding. They sail because they love to. Not for cash. They work their butts off around the calendar here at the factory and then sail regattas on their own time for the most part. They get a little travel support, but nothing you would call deep pocket worthy.

I will have to check with Steve Fields in Australia, but we think (here in the US) that Ashby is sailing for a local dealer down there. There are no deep pockets for team sailors in our company (Our company includes Australia).

Just chatted with Steve...

Ashby got a boat to sail. No contract.

The most experienced F-18 sailors in OZ race the tigers. At the Worlds just gone, if you take out the paid pros... The manufactures list is very open with the Capricorn showing very good speed. Many including Gashby / Bundy believe that the Capricorn, with equal sailors on board are the quickest of the F-18s.

We also have a new home built F-18 in Oz built by Mark Laruffa. He calls it the "Predator"

See attached

pic 2 of the "Predator"

"If" others (F18) are quicker, then why don't they finish better in Aus?

pros or no pros, they just don't cut it do they?

The last I looked Brad Collett, Brad Sumner, Mal Gray are not pro's.

Cheers
Steve

The difference in performance between the F18's I've sailed (extensively both the Nacra and the Tiger) are very very minor. Both the Nacra and the Hobie Tiger trade off weaknesses and strengths as the wind and water conditions change - even those strengths or weaknesses are exceptionally minor. There are more Hobie Tigers out there than any other F18 platform and arguably more highly skilled teams are sailing Tigers (among other things, leading to more development) so it's pretty natural that the Tigers are leading more often.

If there is little difference between the boats, do the sailmakers make any difference?
Is everyone using the same sailmaker? Are last years sails as fast as this years sails?
Have the boats gotten to a point where all the sails look the same shape?
ie. vertical distribution of draft

This year's F18 North Americans saw predominantly manufacturer's sails. From what I know, only in two cases were the sails from a 2nd party. Alex Shafer and Nigel Pitt were using "Performance" sails that come factory on European Nacras. Mike Krantz and David Lennard were using a set of sails produced by Ullman. If you peel away several layers, Zuchulli Ullman (sp?) is heavily involved in the development of the Hobie sails (from what I understand) I believe in Italy.

Of the factory sails present at NA's, there were basically two varieties of Hobie sails and two varieties of Nacra sails. The older variety Nacra and Hobie look similar in shape with a smaller square top as do the newer Nacra and Hobie sharing a similar shape both with a bigger square top. The new Hobie main is refered to as STX.

Results at NA's were mixed. 1st place was using the newer Hobie STX main, 2nd place was using the older Hobie style. Alex and Nigel were doing pretty well with the Performance sails and Mike and David did pretty well with the set from Ullman. Sail types were pretty jumbled up throughout the results...we were using a one year old set of the 'old style' Nacra sails.

Susan was using old main & old small Hobie Jib & spin

I'll stick my nose in where it doesn't belong. It ain't the boat. 5 or 6 of the top 10 at the F18 came from the very competitive H16 fleet. They have all sailed many regatta's with big fleets and done many national events. That's how you learn to be a good racer (hasn't worked for me yet).
They probably could switch boats and do just as well. Time on the water(TOW),as they say.

BINGO

Hobie sailors go racing... I'll bet if you look at the how many events the hard core Hobie 16 sailors do compared to monohull dinghy's or other cat classes you will see that they have 5 or 6 buoys events a year and 15+ years of experience behind them. AND they travel to go racing.

That commitment keeps things going and puts them at the front of the fleet ...

The trick to bringing the number of racers up is to get new people involved but competing at the appropriate level... The B and C fleet's of days gone by were the key to racing's growth... Our inability to keep those numbers going costs us. Beginers or people sticking their toe in the racing game must have some way to feel some success in the racing game. Any thoughts???

Mark

Mark,

I just moved to Annapolis a few months ago. I am interested in getting into racing and would like to crew before I skipper a boat. I have hread of (but haven't gotten down to) WRCRA on the East River. Are there any other cat racing fleets in the area? Anyone you know of looking for crew. I ahve been pleasure sailing cats for about 6 years now plus a couple hundred hours of sea time in some very large mono-hulls.

Hi Nick

Saturday in West River... We have 20 boats racing in the CBYRA Big Boat event the West River Twilight Race.

2 pm start so you want to be there 10 to 12 to talk with folks and check out the scene... Another guy is coming down to look at F18's.

Half the fleet will start from the WRCRA lot on Church street.... the other half will start from the WRSC lot about a block away down and to the right. check out both.

The Crab feast will start at 6PM... you can still get your name on the list and pay at the door.

First thing to do though is get on the yahoogroup www.sailcrac.com list serve. This will get you all of the fleet emails... people looking for crew etc etc. Then check out www.sailcrac.com and the CRAC web site. linked on that page for all of the info you need.

Take Care
Mark


WE are doing the misnamed

Hi Steve,

If you read my post again you will see that I was refering to the worlds with regards to the paid pros. Not the Oz champs.

With regards to the Oz F-18 fleet. The Tiger sailors just happened to be the more experienced, better prepared, more seasond racers at this point in time. They have come from other Hobie classes where racing was very competitive.

As you see good sailors from other classes move into the F-18 class, you will see the other manufactures lift thier results. Gashby came from the top of the A's to join the hobie camp. Bundy came from T's to do likewise. Cookie and Fabio have come from a very experienced local Taipan 4.9 fleet and with only limited regattas in the Capricorn copared to others in the top and have done extremely well.

The Capricorn is a very quick boat and as we are seeing, top sailors are slowly looking at this class and Capricorn results are improving rapidly. We are already starting to see this in Europe and will start to see it in Oz very soon. It is only very early days for the Capricorn. Hobie have offered the likes of Bundy, Gashby, Booth ect(3 off the worlds best cat sailors) boats to compete in so as to stay on top of the leader board. AHPC are yet to offer one of their boats to a world class pro to get results for them.

See you on the water in the new season.

Hi Steve,

It's good to see that you, the more experienced, better prepared, more seasond racer from the "T-class" will see the boat get results in Australia and finish in the top three.

Steve

Why is it you guys are so cheap anyway?

Ouch , cheap shot

See ya in the new season. Do you plan to make any trips up to KCC. Look forward to getting the Yarra, KCC and other NSW F-18s together on a regular basis. May be once a month co-ordinate traveling to another F-18 club.

Becuase they are running a business, not a charity for good sailors. Loaning a boat gives them a lot of promotional value for very little expense - in other words, a very businesslike decision.

They're not exactly unmodified factor boats either.

this said, I found out that Greg Thomas and Jacques Bernier represented very well the Hobie brand. Fantastic sailors, very friendly and giving a lot of tips (in other words, no rock stars). On the top of that, good sportmanship after the OCS, run ALL the races (even if they did not need to) which shows some respect to the other competitors and the organization. Wether they are paid or not does matter too much for me.

You talking about the Aussie Tigers or Greg and Jacques' boat? Just what is it that you think is modified from stock?

I did not intend to refer to Greg and Jacques' boat - I haven't had to conversation with them but I would guess that they are sailing a full up factory boat. I was, rather, referring to the boats sailed by the likes of Ashby and Bundock. According to some that have been to the recent F18 Worlds the leading boats have custom foils, sails, and in some cases, masts.

Jake,

I can't really say for the F18 Worlds, that was a Hobie Cat France venue. Like each of the recent F18 events, they are... F18 events, not Tiger events, so there can be many changes that fit the F18 rules. We have not heard that there were any big new things they tried on those boats.

As far as this threads topic, the Aussie F18 event... according to Steve Fields when I spoke with him last week, the boats at the Aussie F18 event were stock. He can better confirm that if he gets a chance to post here.

At the North American Event. Only the top spot was a "factory" team and they were sailing a completely stock boat. We really cannot refer to Greg and Jacques as "pro" sailors either. They are office workers and hadn't even raced since the Alter Cup in the beginning of May. Hardly what you would think the description would be of a "pro" team.

Not to steal any thunder or contradict, but my understanding from talking to them is that they're on a stock 2006 boat... which is only just now becoming available for purchase. New jib and the blue 'chute, along with the STX main that just started shipping a few months ago. My opinion is that they'd do pretty well with the original mustard pinhead, but that's, of course, not what they choose to race on.

So, stock Matt? Yep. For 2006.

Steve just filled me in some more on the Aussie F18 winners boats...

Ashby and Collett were on stock (used, from the Tiger Worlds) boats and STX sails. Stock boards, masts... Sumner was on a two year old boat.



National Champions Glenn Ashby and Andrew Williams on the way to taking the title

Yeah... that is a stock Hobie Tiger. Standard white boards and rudders, sails and mast.

Steve thinks the last F18 Worlds (Italy) leaders there were basically stock Tigers. Some may have had the carbon daggers and or blades that are available to anyone and have been for some time.

John, You mean Greg and Jacques Boat? No their boat is a 2005 that they sailed at the Tiger Worlds. Their spinnaker is the older cut. They had the STX sails that we have been selling with 2005 boats. At the Hobie Tiger Worlds they had to use the older cut. The STX will not be Tiger Class approved till January 2006.

hmmm - I must have misunderstood them about the jib and spin being stock sails for 2006. Jacques sounded pretty definite, but we were in a bar, so...

Matt, there's nothing wrong with the 'factory' team sailing with the best and latest gear. I don't think anyone would expect anything different. I was surprised when Greg was explaining to me that they only get time off to do a certain number of regattas each year. If you have any pull, you should help them to not have to choose only two events among the Tiger Continentals, F18NAs, ISAF World Games and Tiger Worlds. They would represent the US and Hobie USA well in ALL of them. Mango should cough up some budget for the poster boys - after all, they're making his job much easier on the fiberglass side of the house. Now if we could just get some Bravo regattas going, or maybe *gasp* get behind a Wave event, we could make his job easier on the plastic side, too.

Incidentally - I built two 2005 Tigers this year. Second one had the STX and first one didn't.

Ok, well... thread officially hijacked! I'll pipe down.

I'll second that! Greg and Jacques need to travel more and participate in global events. They are certainly hot on the race course and they need to do some representin' for the USA (and Canada)!!!!

Thanks for the clarification.

Don't we just love these word games with Hobie sailors ?


Wouter

And don't we all like Wouter with his one design, one off being an expert on everything. Get a life Wouter.

I know it is extremely hard for Hobie sailors to say the word "formula". They rather call the different boats : Stock 2000, stock 2001, stock 2002 , ... stock 2006. Even though the year 2006 isn't even here yet. Before we know it you can buy a stock 2010 boat in the year 2007.

Anything to not have to say "FORMULA", right ?

Even when refering to my boat you rather call it "a one-design one-off" than what it truly is a FORMULA boat. Forgive me when I have trouble understanding what a "One-design one-off" exactly is. Seems to me that these two describtions are mutually exclusive.

I know, I know. Formula is such a clear expression of "NOT ONE-DESIGN" !

The names "stock 200X" are alot less ... ehhh ... clear and hurtful to One-design junkies.

Just pathetic guys. it's just pathetic.

Wouter

Wouter,

In my context... "stock" has nothing to do with "One Design". It has everything to do with "available to the masses" and not some kind of secret weapon created for some event.

Humm, so who else had access to the "stock 2006" gear except Bernier and crew at the last F18 event ? Certainly not "the masses" or else it would have been named "stock 2005" or older.

Besides I never said it was a secret wapon. Those are your words. Interesting that you choose to deny something that wasn't even stated in the orginal post.

"Available to the masses" can only be done when the Tiger class rules reflect the F18 rules. Otherwise will always see the Hobie factory teams show up with next year stock items. By opening up the Tiger rules "normal sailors" can optimize their own sails and not have to wait till Hobie releases their new stock.

Although this is not a big issue in reality. Any serious Tiger crew already does his own thing without any regard for momentary the Tiger class rules.

Wouter

The way I understood what has been said is that the STX sails are being sold stock for the 2005 Hobie Tigers but will not be "class legal" for the Tigers until 2006. In other words, they are available to the masses and can be used for Formula 18 events, but cannot be used in Hobie-sanctioned events until 2006.

Am I correct in that, Matt?

Yes, Mary has it right.

Everything that Greg and Jacques sailed with was available with 2005 boats. But... they used an even older spinnaker (cut was available several years ago). Many of the Tigers were using STX sails. Remember that this is the cut that came out at the F18 Worlds a year ago.

Ohh I understand it now ...

Tiger class rules are exactly the same as whatever is introduced at the F18 event a year earlier !

Why not have it the same year ? If you guys are going to change the Tiger class rules on this aspect every year anyway, why not just do away with this useless class rule and just copy the F18 rules ?

Are you guys taking yourselfs seriously ? Because I certainly don't. What is the use of any "approved Hobie tiger class" mainsail shape when the rule on it has been rewritten and will be rewritten with every new development in teh F18 class anyway ?

Mind you, the newer Hobie sails (over the last two years) are indeed alot better than before. I can fully appreciate that Hobie allows the Tiger to go with the times where some other classes fanatically hang on to outdated sailshapes.

Wouter

The Hobie Class and manufacturers are walking a tightrope between maintaining one-design Hobie Class racing and a competitive Formula 18 class boat. So far it is working with a few grumbles here and there.
The Tiger class adopts gradual class rule changes, thereby slowing development to an acceptable pace for Tiger Class sailors. This means that Tiger class sailors get more than one season out of their sails etc. The Tigers which compete at F18 events are usually stock standard class-legal Tigers but sometimes they carry the latest prototype gear from the Hobie R and D team. At this year's F18 worlds, USA Nats and Aussie F18 Nats, the top Tigers were Hobie class legal boats equipped with stock standard equipment available to everyone at the time.
Sometimes the HCat Europe team uses the F18 Worlds as a test for new ideas. The Hobie Class does not always adopt these latest developments.
Anyway Wouter, we don't really care what you think!

Mal Gray
Vice President Aust F18
Member IHCA Rules Committee

I can't argue with your observation that the class seems to lag F18 by about a year - but I don't think it is a big deal. The Tiger one design class is an elegant compromise between the F18 class (rapid development, higher cost to be at the top end) and a very static class that then results in boats which are no longer competitive at the top level of F18 racing. The class continues to evolve and adopt some of the best ideas of the F18 class while keeping the cost a little lower on average for class members.

The STX main is a very welcome development - it certainly seems to be an improvement over the old main when we have done testing. Delaying it's adoption in the Hobie Tiger class in North America until Jan 1 '06 kept the 2005 Tiger Worlds fair. I'm not sure why this was delayed until '06 though - right after the worlds would have worked fine unless the idea was to save class members the cost of an immediate upgrade after a bunch of new boats had just hit the racing scene over here.

Life may be simple if there was just F18 class, but the Hobie Class Association and Hobie are both acting in their own interests by keeping a Hobie Tiger class - what have they got to gain by ditching the current class rules and joining the F18 class?

Personally I would be happy with just an F18 class - but realistically I don't see that happening any time soon.

Chris.

But if the new mains are not legal till 2006 than why why are they delivered with the new Tigers in 2005 ?

All this trouble for what ? Ones it has been decided that a new main will be adopted you will see a point in time where a split between old and new will be encountered. There is simply never a way around that, what is the use of putting it off a year or two ? I mean a guy ripping his sail 2 months before the introduction of the new main still has to buy an OLD main to be class compliant right ?

I'm not a hobie sailor so indeed my opinion accounts for zilch I guess. But what Hobie should do is make the platform OD and the mast and just open up the sail rules, make these equal to the F18 rules. THEN you have the best of both worlds.

In addition I would like to comment on another conflict in claims :

It always seems that the argument for having such restrictive rules are to keep costs down and slow down development. But almost in the same posts it is always claimed that the best Tigers at big events are stock boats ! Suggesting that "old" gear stays competitive in the F18 class as well !

So what is it guys ? Either the lead tiger have the lastest go-fast stuff that simply isn;t TIGER OD or they don't and the whole foundation under the restrictive rules falls away.

You can't have it both ways.

Wouter

Yes, Wouter, apparently they can (and do) have it both ways. Doesn't make any sense to me, either. But as long as it is okay with the Hobie Class Association, it is really none of our business.

I guess that would be the case if these discussion stayed wholely inside the Hobie class. I wouldn't post things like this in any Hobie specific forums. But everytime we get into that "Have a hobie day !" glorification threads on the OPEN forum I think I'm allowed my say. No I will say that Hobie class does several things right (providing boats for ex.) and these are best copied by other classes but the "Tiger = OD class and therefor better than F18" rubbish certainly isn't one of of these things. I'm truly sorry but I have a really hard time not seeing a clear theme of misinformation.

But on the other hand, what am I working myself up about.

I will look my up that shady place under my rock again.

Wouter

I saw Mitch Booth and his son build a stock Tiger right out of the box at the Tiger Worlds - and they did very well on it. If I remember correctly what my friend who went to the 2005 F18 worlds told me, Darren Bundock's Tiger had the stock Hobie Tiger spin - not the new flatter F18 spin. I think he also had the stock "one-line" spinnaker tack/halyard system - instead of some of the latest greatest separate internal tack line with spin halyard cleat on the mast.

My point is I think what makes the top boys win is not the boat - its their sailing ability. That is why they do good on stock boats. My conclusion is a lot of the latest tweaks make a marginal difference in speed. Occasionally something like the new style "Super square top" mains comes along that really seems to have an edge.

One advantage the top guys have is they are often working with brand new sails and brand new hulls, boards, rudders. Assuming the sails are cut consistently then I think there is a real advantage in a crispy new spin for every regatta.

Locking in on a class sail design may give a more level playing field - and I think a side benefit is that folk would spend more time focusing on their sailing (with higher performance returns) than worrying about some perceived edge from the latest hot main or spinnaker.

Chris.

Exactly! That is, I believe, the original Hobie premise and the class still strives for that with the Tiger.

By the way Wouter... I don't think anyone claimed that the Tiger Class system was better than F18.

So OD means more money needs to be spent on the brand new hulls sails and foils. Is this because the quality can be lower than non-smod classes?



As long as the crew is willing to spend the money for new rigs hulls and foils.. Nice level playing field..

Thanks I needed the giggle on how "single manufacturers one design" system saves money.. Especially as it requires more outlay than a formulae or box rule to keep competative..

S.

You completely missed the point there. The OD idea is LESS cost because an OD class doesn't have to buy the latest greatest stuff every other regatta.

Interesting theory you have on quality as well. Generally in a production setting you get more consistant quality, not less. You learn how to make things right.

Let's not start a rumour about how expensive it is to stay up-to-date in box rule classes either. David and I placed 13th (our best showing by far) with a factory boat and sails that have one full year of sailing and something close to 600 miles of distance covered with it (and a good deal of it in heavy air). To our chagrin, even the spinnaker is the same.

Sorry Jake.

I certainly did not mean to imply that the box rule IS more expensive.

I was replying to an assumption that somehow OD IS more expensive. The open rules have the potential to be more expensive. That is not to say that a OD guy could not spend a ton on new sails, masts and stuff every regatta, they would just be buying the same stuff, cut every time, but what would be the point of that?

The factories are free to do whatever they want in the way of modifications, whether it is in the name of development or cost savings or safety.

Over the years we have all seen product innovation (PI) at what cost?
Can vestal one design be maintained forever? (Even the Laser has change it's rigging, oh my deity)

However PI seens to keep selling new boats, or new sails. Again, no one complains (with results) when sails change, and chalk it up to maintenance.

If the perfect boat or sails could be built to a level where they are maintence free, NO fibreglass fatigue, no rigging revisions, no one would need to rotate boats, and the manufacturers would SINK?

The price of keeping the manufactures afloat is paid by the sailors sacrificing virginal one design. Product innovation is what keeps the manufacturer at sea. If there is no incentive to buy a new boat/sail/innovation how are the manufactures going to stay afloat?

So perhaps there is a fourth class of boat.
1. Formula one design (F18)
2. International one design (Tornado)
3. Manufacturer's one design (Laser)
4. Manufacturer's one design with mucho product innovation (Tiger)

Not to mention fibreglass fatigue problem, which only the Tornado class has resolved (ARC?).

Vestal one design throughout the lifespan of my boats has appeared to be a myth. Somehow one design boats (& sails) seem to get a little better every year, and after a couple of years I want to buy a new boat. Just the cost of new set of sails on some boats can justify the cost of buying a new boat and supporting the manufacturer. What good does has it ever done to whine at the factory for wanting to make some dineros by building a better, stiffer, longer lasting boat or sails? Sometimes I don't like it and the price is to high to play, but I am not against anyone trying to make a buck$.

Just FYI, the Tiger is an International One-Design Class, along with the H14, H16, H17 and TheMightyHobie18. The manufacturers cannot make changes in these classes willy-nilly (although Hobie Europe tries with the Tiger and most recently with the addition of a spinnaker to the H16). Changes must be submitted by the Class Association and approved by ISAF - not a rubber stamp, BTW. The manufacturers have a say in the class rules of these classes, but they do not control them.

FYI pt 2.

The Tornado is not a one design; it is a formula class with tight controls on hull shapes; Marstrom Hulls (Currently the weapon of choice) are not the same as White Formula Hulls or the same as Alwoplast or most of the others on the builders list etc etc.

Look at any picuture of a fleet of Tornado's and you will see the sail shapes are different.

We are in a very similar situation with our Spin - one year old, similar mileage and wind conditions, and it shows. In light air the shape looks bad now and we can't carry it as high on a reach anymore without it collapsing way earlier than other Tigers with younger chutes. Still we are doing OK in the local races, and I'm not going to buy a new one until next year (no point in wearing out a new kite in winter practice).

So if you go F18 or Tiger OD I think you can race and be relatively competitive without brand new sails etc at every event - i.e. the cost is reasonable. Chutes are unfortunately are a consumable if you sail a lot.

To paraphrase the gospel according to Rick White (Cat Sailing for the 90's): Getting a good start, keeping clean air, picking the right side of the course and making good mark roundings and tacks is worth multiple boat lengths around the course....the latest go-faster goodies - a few feet.

Chris.

What is the big problem any way with Hobie (Tiger) just adopting/incorporating the F18 "Box rule" as the Hobie Tiger measurement rules??
They are so close anyway that it would just seem to be the logical solution to any "misunderstandings". There seems to be no problem with the Hobie Tiger sailing against the other F18's now as "fully optimised" F18's, so what is the big deal? The only argument that I can see by having a "one design" class Hobie Tiger and a fully optimised F18 Tiger is that Hobie can sail their OD Tiger at their OD Tiger events? What would change if the Tiger was fully F18? They could still be sailed at OD Tiger events as OD Tigers without the inclusion of other F18's? Where/what is Hobies reasoning for this anomaly? (Tell me it is NOT just a “profit” thing)

The Tornado is one design.

The design allows for home builders manufacturing error when building the hulls and platform.. But the tolerances are small..

Yes the rig at th moment is openish..

No you have to just buy a new set of foils, a new platform and sails. A huge saving!



Is that why Aussie home built hulls are still winning titles, in open and home built classes, 15 years after building and consistant "quality" "built right" production hulls are land fill at the same age?

Again thanks for the chuckle..

100% correct.... The T is what you call a Multi Manufacture One Design Class (MMOD) as apposes to the Tiger which is a Single Manufacture One design Class SMOD)

Darryl, Its not about profit, its about drawing a line somewhere so that the equipment is equal, not just similar. Sure, gear upgrades are approved from time to time but the best you can have is what is easily available to all. At a Hobie class event, no one can gain a speed advantage through advanced equipment. Believe it or not, that is what many racers around the world want and that is why Hobie Tiger will not go full F18 class rules. We have a very reliable communication channel with members and use it to gauge opinion before making major changes.
You will do what works for you, we'll continue to do what works for our members.

Single-manufacturer one-designs (SMOD) are very much in the minority as far as one-design classes. What is there besides the Vanguard classes and the Hobie classes? (I don't know what the deal is with the sailboard classes.)

The Optimist Dinghy Class is the largest in the world right now, and they have a huge list of builders and sailmakers --and plans available for building the boat yourself.

When we got our Lightning in 1948 it was the largest one-design class in the world. It had a number of builders, and you could get your sails anywhere you wished (as long as they measured in).

The Tornado also can have many builders and sailmakers, and you can also build it yourself, but all have to comply with the measurements and tolerances.

Those are examples of TRUE one-design. SMOD's are not true one-design, because they force the crew to be one-design, too.

Are you saying that the Formula approach allows performance improvement at a faster rate than Hobie is willing to allow for their OD class? I'm not disagreeing with this, but surely if it's true it would sooner or later doom the Tiger to falling out of contention as a competitive F18 boat. I don't doubt that OD and Formula both have legitimate appeal to different sets of people, but is it possible to satisfy both sets of desires at the same time?

Mark.

Sorry to go back to original subject. Last year Capricorn (Greg Goodall) was winning 04'Aus. title, until the last race when F18Tiger (Glenn Ashby) snared it (with at that time non Tiger legal sails, Capricorn beat first legal Tiger). Greg did not compete this year, Aus. F18Tiger sailors had obviously lifted standard, as first Capricorn at 05' Aus titles did well at Worlds.

My point? That the Capricorn is capable of beating Tigers. Tigers don't dominate on Australian scene. When Ashby and Bundock are not there, Capricorns win their share of events. I am afraid haven't seen many Nacras win though.

It certainly sounds like USA Tiger sailors should be let out more though, I am a "weekend warrior" and do at least 12 regattas a year and aprox. 20 weekends. Maybe that is why top Aussies are so good, "weekend warriors" pushing them. You Yanks had better get sailing or you will get your butts kicked when worlds are Down Under.

Regards Gary.

As an avid F18 sailor and and the Aust F18 media guy, I try to minimise reference to manufacturers, preferring to report on the accomplishment of the sailors. The heading above (not mine) was accurate. Ashby did dominate after the first day. Your's truly was ahead after the first three races, but Ashby's string of bullets put paid to my brief taste of free beer at the winner's tent!
The successful promotion of F18 needs unbiased promotion and emphasis on sailor skill not equipment. The designs are all pretty close in performance. The sailors make the difference.

Mark,
To clarify.... the class legal Hobie Tiger will always be F18 compliant. The Tiger class rules will be more restrictive than the F18 class rules to offer limited one-design racing as well as F18 racing to Tiger sailors. It is difficult to have the best of both worlds but it is do-able.

Malgray

Why are you going to the effort to maintain two racing circuits EG... Tiger one design and F18 in Australia? ... Doesn't the dichotomy force people to choose one or the other and cut participation in any event in half. How does this grow participation in F18's?

Even if the Tiger events are a once a year nationals IMO few sailors have the time or resources to compete in two national events (Tiger and F18)

How does this help you grow participation in F18's?

I am very curious in a non USA perspective on this philosophy.

Mark, here in Australia, there is a place for both competitions. The F18 has developed into a pretty high-level contest at local and national level with the best sailors from all classes having a go. There are also plenty of Tiger sailors who want to class race and join in the fun at a Hobie Nationals without the intensity of F18 with its measurement etc,etc. A Tiger class sailor gets a few seasons out of a set of sails.
The keen guys do both, some choose one or the other.
F18 in Australia was originally formed by the major classes to be an additional parrallel competition. Nacra and Capricorn also hold class Nationals.
Maybe we just sail more than the average USA sailor.
A keen racer here can compete in competitive regattas within 10 hrs drive a couple of times per month. Some guys do just that.

Get to race 2 x state, national and World titles....... Can't be unhappy about that. You also get to meet the same great guys an extra time each year.

Also Mal, you are right..... It is the sailors who are up the front...... Not the class they sail. All credit should be given to those sailors up the front of the leader board as it is a very competitive fleet. You don't just get there by being a weekend warrior. Plenty of training and preperation outside of club events.

Hi
Thanks for the insight.

Sounds like the modern version of A and B fleets in the hey day of the Hobie 16. Just not as rigid. Interesting.

Yes... I think you guys go racing much more frequently then we do. Very few teams seem to compete in 5 or more events a season.

Take Care
Mark

This is amazing!!!

I am a newbie to this forum but I can see why I will not spend too much time here in the future.

This thread was started to praise the efforts of a certain team in Australia and has progressed to throwing stones at manufacturers, sailmakers, and anyone who would supposedly have a reason to undermine the fairness of the sport in an effort to win at all costs.

GIVE ME A BREAK.

The reason these people win, as it was pointed out earlier by Pat and seconded by Mark, is that they sail. They spend time on the water. Hobie cat racing is the purest and largest one design racing class in the world. There is none like it. Is it any wonder that the most competitive and most successful competitors come from this class?

I look at Enrique from PR. He is a dear friend, a great competitor and probably one of the, if not the greatest catamaran sailor in the world. I have seen him dominate H16 events, go to a H20 event (having never even sailed the boat) and dominate and now he goes into the Tiger NAs, dominates only to come back to the H16 a short time later to dominate again. I do not even think Randy Smythe (as good as Randy is) can do that. I remember Randy having a bit of a difficult time on the H16 at the 1st Carlton Tucker memorial event in 1999.

Greg and Jacques are two of the finest sailors I know. Greg is an old friend from our "Brat Pack" days of our crewing around the country. Both are humble in their ways and are the first to give you a clue as to what you can do to improve your efforts. A true Carlton spirit exists in these guys. If you don't know what I mean by that you didn't know one of the greatest sportsmen I have ever known in Carlton Tucker.

I just cannot believe the replies and the innuendos over the type of equipment being used, is it a smoking gun, is it legal, maybe we should have more classes, more rules, etc.

I'll tell you what, get off your butts, out from behind the computer screen and start sailing your boats. Put some water under your hulls and begin to see what it takes to become a great sailor.

IT ISN'T ABOUT THE BOAT!

Mark

Mark,

Well said. More times than not these threads degrade into mudslinging by the same core group on this forum. Keep up the great job you've always been doing.

John Bauldry
Commodore, Hobie Fleet 276
Detroit, MI
Hobie Tiger #1704

Hobibrat1, To say that,

"Hobie cat racing is the purest and largest one design racing class in the world. There is none like it. Is it any wonder that the most competitive and most successful competitors come from this class?"

Is taking on a fairly large weight to carry on your shoulders, isn’t it?
I am quite sure that many/most of the best/top, international catamaran sailors over the last forty or so years DIDN’T come from out of the Hobie ranks. Although there are some very prominent examples of good/top international sailors, over that time span who started their careers in Hobies, there are just as many, (more) who never competed once on any Hobie cat.
I am sure that we could all get into a “naming” competition of top INTERNATIONAL sailors who did and those who didn’t, which would become just a slagging match (mine is bigger than yours type thing), and by replying to your post in this way, I am risking exactly the theme of you post, but I found that I have been unable to resist replying to such a statement as that which you have made.

"Hobie cat racing is the purest and largest one design racing class in the world. There is none like it. Is it any wonder that the most competitive and most successful competitors come from this class?"

I assume you mean 2 hulled ?

Just for the record... Mine is bigger.

Okay, maybe I was being a bit impirical in my statement. I recant any implication that top sailors do not come from other vessels and that there may be larger classes. However, I still hold to the truth that in order to attain a status of being a top sailor you need to have an over the top organized class that allows for the opportunities to develop skills in all types of conditions. This is where the strength of the Hobie class can be quantified. Many events, professionally managed in many conditions thru numerous generations produce quality talent.

Did not mean to step on any toes. Just trying to make a point that it is not the boat but the quality and talent of the team at the helm.

Once again this forum gets me. Instead of taking the intent of the comments there must be some underlying controversial theme pulled out and stepped on.

With that I leave this forum.

Mark

Hobiebrat1,
I think your original impression that this thread was started to "praise" is off the mark. It started because a guy wondered why an Aussie didn't sail an Austalian made boat; that's all. Just some guy curious about something he didn't have an answer for. Boy, you must have been having a pretty tough day because you come across as being wound-up just a wee bit tight.

In your follow-up post you say you might have been empirical in your comments. You didn't respond to people's opinions as an empiricist, you were just flat out judgemental. Which, it seems to me, tars yourself with the same brush you've applied to others. And now you're all upset and going to take your marbles and go home. That's what little boys do, but this is a forum for big kids; and I think it might be past your bedtime anyway, so it's probably best you toddle off.

If you weren't wound so tight you might have been better able to take your own advice, and read less into the words of others. Forums, are after all, a very difficult medium for communicating, because with tonal quality and body language absent, nothing but words remain. And words alone we're told, are the smallest portion of any communication. About the only thing I could probably say to you without too much risk for misinterpretation is, whiners just piss me off.

Had you chosen to stick around and participate, I should have said that I agree with: 1) your observation that winners put in a lot of time on the water; 2) good sportsmanship is, as you say, as exemplified by Greg Ashby, very admirable; 3) your willingness to concede a point is an asset to skillful communication; 4) I think your absolutely correct that a well managed class advantages sailors.

It's a shame a person of your religious beliefs couldn't find a more collegial way to engage with others. A lot of the "stone throwing" was aimed at the Hobie Co., and if you read over the replies as posted by Matt Miller, you'd have a pretty good idea of civility in response to some strong opinions, through his poised use of calm and well mannered answers. Without, I should add, any sanctimonious judgementalism. Even Wouter Hijink, who seems able to touch a nerve now and then, mainly confined his arguements to forcibly pushing his particular viewpoint, though in the end he too tired and left to 'hide under a rock'. Well I think you get the idea.

Adios

From a German Catamaran Forum

http://translate.google.com/transla...&oe=UTF-8&prev=%2Flanguage_tools


F18 Capricorn
Author: Torsten
Date: 30.08.2005 15:05

F18 Capricorn now also in Germany

The new speed machines from Australia
The new Capricorn F18 conquers Europe as in the storm. And they get going so far the F18-Szene a crucial step dominated of the American "companies" Hobie and Nacra. With more speed. With exzellentem sail characteristics. With outstanding quality in Design, material and processing.
The Capricorn F18 is built by Jim Boyer and Greg gold universe in the Australian family business Australian High performance Catamarans. Those threw possesses recognized a high know-how and is for example with their Auscat Cats as well as the flyer A-Cats for a long time successfully in the High Tech Cat Business at home.
The Capricorn Design originates from the feather/spring of the German Multi Hull specialist Dr. Martin Fischer and DownUnder in a aufwaendigen development phase up to perfection was refined. An innovative F18 came out, in which each quantity is good ideas.

That speaks for Capricorn:
International tests and first successes suggest a genuine speed projection/lead to the past constructions.
The Australians supply a outstanding processing and use first-class materials (e.g. high-quality university-you-acct-alga-weave, expensive Vinylesterharz etc.).
The new Design united exzellente sail characteristics with a very much responding clean optics with beautiful lines and a good finish.

The trunk:
Completely few Rocker, an inverse nose range and the broadest place within the range of the wasserlinie: These factors make a high dynamic stability and an early sliding possible - also at the wind.
Fewer stampfen - than result of high dynamic stability - prevents typical flow separation in the Topbereich with steep, short wave. And is called: more height, more speed!

The Rigg:
With the Rigg Greg gold universe carried whole work out. With a very rigid, accurately mast and outstanding cut Pentex sails co-ordinated with the F18-Vermessungsregeln he achieves outstanding aerodynamic characteristics.

Standard
- carbon swords
- 16:1 Cunningham from the trapezoid adjustably
- mast rotation from the trapezoid adjustably
- Pentex grosssegel and fock
- nylon silicone Spinnaker
- Spinnaker mountain system
- rudders and sword bags
- Groestes mast profile in the F18 class
- all boats at or under the minimum weight
- control linen in the Beam led

From a German Catamaran Forum

http://translate.google.com/transla...&oe=UTF-8&prev=%2Flanguage_tools


F18 Capricorn
Author: Torsten
Date: 30.08.2005 15:05

F18 Capricorn now also in Germany

The new speed machines from Australia
The new Capricorn F18 conquers Europe as in the storm. And they get going so far the F18-Szene a crucial step dominated of the American "companies" Hobie and Nacra. With more speed. With exzellentem sail characteristics. With outstanding quality in Design, material and processing.
The Capricorn F18 is built by Jim Boyer and Greg gold universe in the Australian family business Australian High performance Catamarans. Those threw possesses recognized a high know-how and is for example with their Auscat Cats as well as the flyer A-Cats for a long time successfully in the High Tech Cat Business at home.
The Capricorn Design originates from the feather/spring of the German Multi Hull specialist Dr. Martin Fischer and DownUnder in a aufwaendigen development phase up to perfection was refined. An innovative F18 came out, in which each quantity is good ideas.

That speaks for Capricorn:
International tests and first successes suggest a genuine speed projection/lead to the past constructions.
The Australians supply a outstanding processing and use first-class materials (e.g. high-quality university-you-acct-alga-weave, expensive Vinylesterharz etc.).
The new Design united exzellente sail characteristics with a very much responding clean optics with beautiful lines and a good finish.

The trunk:
Completely few Rocker, an inverse nose range and the broadest place within the range of the wasserlinie: These factors make a high dynamic stability and an early sliding possible - also at the wind.
Fewer stampfen - than result of high dynamic stability - prevents typical flow separation in the Topbereich with steep, short wave. And is called: more height, more speed!

The Rigg:
With the Rigg Greg gold universe carried whole work out. With a very rigid, accurately mast and outstanding cut Pentex sails co-ordinated with the F18-Vermessungsregeln he achieves outstanding aerodynamic characteristics.

Standard
- carbon swords
- 16:1 Cunningham from the trapezoid adjustably
- mast rotation from the trapezoid adjustably
- Pentex grosssegel and fock
- nylon silicone Spinnaker
- Spinnaker mountain system
- rudders and sword bags
- Groestes mast profile in the F18 class
- all boats at or under the minimum weight
- control linen in the Beam led

Not so much into "control linen in the Beam led"

but the "Pentex grosssegel and fock"......

SIGN ME UP!!

Who are you????

As for pouting, I really do not like slinging mud and that seems to go on alot in this forum.

I have to beg to differ on the intent of this post. Tom Korz, a friend of mine, posted nothing more that the subject, Australian F18 Nats- Ashby dominating!!! and a picture. There was not a mention of anything about boats or anything, just a subject, a picture and a link to the event site.

Now, there was a reply that started the questioning about all the boat stuff.

At least I don't hide behind a nickname.

Adios para tu amigo!

Mark

"Standard
- carbon swords.."

How do I get some of these? Sometimes I think my sailing style needs a little more swashbuckling ;-)

If you think this is bad...you should have seen the old (non-registration required) forum. There are still mud stains on the proverbial wall! Try the Sailing Anarchy forums too.

Really though, we all mostly intend well here. Sometimes we get our fur in a bunch about somebody making a claim about this or that based on some ludicrous piece of information but for the most part, you'll find that 75% of this site is usefull information and we often help a lot of new people out. On the upshot, we don't jump into personal attacks all that often. Most of the online forums tend to de-personalize a lot of the conversations and folks say things that they probably wouldn't say in a face to face conversation. There's also been some pretty hot topics lately that have drawn some lines in the sand...they'll fade away soon enough. Like most people, I've got soft spots under which people can get under my skin pretty quickly. Some of the overzealous brand loyalty stuff (with regard to ANY brand) gets to me pretty quickly.

Please don't go away just yet...give us a chance - undoubtedly you can contribute a LOT here!

Hi Stephen

Cool, you found the way to our swiss-catamaran forum!
the translations are really funny sometimes.

'Bug' translated to 'nose' should be bow and so on!

Greetings from Switzerland
Andi

Swiss 18HT class
http://www.18ht.ch/index-en.html

Hobiebrat1 but didn't you just leave this discussion?
Anyway it still like “the fastest sailors are winning regardless of the brand they sail”. The Capricorn may be the fastest so far but apparently not fast enough to overcome this basic fundamental observation.
Best regards

What other sort of a translation would you expect from the SWISS Catamaran site?? This is a country that "sails" at altitude so high above sea level that most of us would get a nosebleed if we sailed there. How “spooky” would it be if all the spectators "yodelled” at you as you sail past? This is a country where they have not one, but three "official" languages. This is country renown for both its cheese and its chocolate, but when they have chocolate covered cheese??? And sailing with a squeaky voice in tight “lederhosen”, just what sort of an English translation would you expect??

Or perhaps babelfish doesnt do to well on grammar and linguistic structures, Darryl

(I hope Stephen didnt do the translation himself)

Now, do they use 'lederhosen' in Switzerland? I imagined that was Bavaria and to some lesser extent Austria? After a thorough soaking, doesnt leather become rather.. stiff?

So Sam Evans has a Brother!!!????

Obviously not me mate....... my Swiss is not that good

3 official languages? Last time I was there it was 4. Dude, give me a break with your negative comments. This is a country who is very PRO sailing.
Dave, from Ascona, now in Toronto.

Hi all,

one more correction on Capricorn specs., which I don't think is due to translation. Hulls are not built in Australia by AHPC "family company", but in Asia as F18 weight doesn't require the finnese needed to build A class or Taipans. But it is a cheaper source of labour than Australia.

Regards Gary.

"Greg Goldall" translated to "Greg gold universe"

Ok, we all know Greg is fast, but his name is Greg Goodall.
BTW I don't know the source of the translated Text.

Maybe it was translated from English to German and now backwards again.