f18 crew weight?

Hi Folks,
I am thinking about getting an f18, but have not yet because of the crew weight. Its very difficult to find crew less than 150 lbs, and I weight 220..Currently I sail a Nacra 6.0na for that very reason.. ok, ok, I could slim down to 200, but still, that puts us at 350+gear (and thats IF I get a "light" 150lb crew). Realistically we would be 370-390lbs. Typical wind conditions here are anywhere from 5-10knots, with a few 10-15 days in the spring/fall.

Would we be at all competitive, or should I just forget it and get a Nacra20?
Dave

Hey Dave -

At 130 pounds, I'm plenty strong enough to deal with the Nacra 20, but don't weigh enough for any of the skippers around here. Guys like me and a lot of girlfriends and wives are glad to see the F18s growing. The F18 has a more manageable spinnaker for the fairer sex, too. Surely there are some women up there that would crew for you - or find some of those guys from up your way that I used to race on 5.5s back in the day. They were all less than 150, I think...

They need to do an advert like -

F18 - putting the women back into regatta parties for spinnaker fleets everywhere.

Hi Dave,

I use to race T's and have now bought a Capricorn F-18.

My crew and I will be racing with 407 lbs crew weight. Winter was unkind to us and are back in training and should get down to 365 lbs.

In the past on the T, we suffered a bit in the light stuff. But in a breeze and particularly on fresh downwinds.... We went like stink.

If you get down to 200, you should be able to find someone capable at 150 to 155 and be very competitive weight. Best to get the 200 on the wire hanging of the back in a downwind blow though.

Cheers

Dave,

I can speak from experience as Chris and I constantly crew my F18 at about 395 lbs. In 5knots or less, we can be competitive. In 5 to 10 knots we get murdered - when other teams start to fly a hull or get one person on the trapeze we really start to go in reverse. We've been working on our downwind technique in the lightish breeze and aren't loosing quite as much downwind in this stuff but upwind continues to be frustrating. That being said, Chris and I have had some great successes. We qualified for the Alter Cup last year on the F18 and we tied for first last weekend (but lost the tie breaker) with a competitive fleet of 6 boats. Unfortunately for us, the majority of the Alter Cup was sailed in 10knots or less and although we had terrific starts and were in the top three at most first A mark roundings, we would constantly slide backwards through each race. If the conditions are right, we can do very well. However, if we are going to continue to try and be competitive, we are going to sail the Nacra 20 more in the future - Chris just bought one David Mosley and I sailed the F18 North Americans together at a crew weight of 345lbs - and we were the 4th heaviest team out of 39 boats! Even then we felt at a little disadvantage in 5 to 10 knots which might actually indicate that there is some room for improvement in my boat setup for this wind strength.

The growth and competition within the F18 class is certainly inticing and I would really like to see you guys in it. However, if I were in your shoes and choosing between a Nacra 20 and F18 and with the likelyhood of constantly crewing the boat in excess of 350lbs (more like 370), I would lean heavily (pun intended) toward the Nacra 20.

I'm in complete agreement with Jake. In light air it's no big deal. In heavy air you can go just as fast but if the wind gets to 5-12 you are hosed. They fly a hull before you. They get single trapped while you sit on the hull. Then they get double trapped while you are single trapped. If you are going to race with a crew weight at or above 350 you need to sail a Nacra 20. 350 is the perfect weight for a Nacra 20. Plus you can sail the Nacra 20 with up to about 400 lbs and not be able to notice a disadvantage.

This is coming from a guy that owns a Hobie Tiger and a Nacra 20.

Mike Hill

Yep, I'm with Mike and Jake on this. I sail consistently between 345 and 355 and Mike and Jake are spot on. I also have a N20 and a F18.

Dave

This is, apparently, the ultimate combination!

H-16, F-18, N-20 Oh yeah & a F31R

seriously the boys Mike, Jake & Dave Are RIGHT ON!!!!

Okay I FINALLY have to call a BS on this quote. To say the front of an F18 is easier than the N20 is just rubbish!

The part that kicks your butt is the set and take down. In my opinion the effort required to do this on the 20 and 18 is the same. Sure you get a slight break trimming but it aint enough to say it's easier!

If you're deciding between these two boats do not think for a second that your crew is going to get a break on the F18 compared to the N20. Now, if you use this as an arguement (it's easier) to get sweetness on the front of the boat then you are on your own!

Dingram

Best strategy to date: Put sweetness on the tiller, and YOU pull the strings. Someone said in an earlier post that you need to put the WEIGHT on the wire. Besides, you could flex like ARNOLD while barking directions to your skipper...

So, always pick a crew that outweighs you, and determine which boat you need on that presumption!

If I keep eating, I'm going to need a Formula 40 in no time!

You mean like this !




Might be a mighty big step for most men.

Wouter

Why in the HELL would I want to pull the strings... that job SUCKS! I currently do the least amount of work and get the most credit when things go right, and everyone knows if you aren't fast it's the fault of the crew.

Again, why would I want to be crew again?

Becouse every good skipper know that a boat isn't fast unless the crew works as a team? Without a good "string-puller", you are definately going to be slow anyway..

In fact, the longer I sail two up, the more I appreciate the teamwork element of sailing a boat together. As it is, I dont care much wether I helm or run the sails, both are fun, but trimming sails are definately more physical.


When Elvstrøm sailed the olympics on the Tornado with his daughter, he steered from the trapeze while Trine trimmed sails. This was before the T's had a double trapezee, so it made sense for him to put as much weight out there as possible. I guess they did something funky with the sheets, to help Trine sheet in while sitting in there.

I have sailed the Tornado in a regatta with my sister once. She was 68kg's at the time, and super-fit (world class female wrestler). She required some help to sheet the spi, but did the main alone. Loads are not that much lighter on a F-18 (and isn't purchase on sheets regulated?) so I imagine the regular female would make the team faster if put on the helm instead of pushing her trough "the workout from hell" every time you go out in a breeze?

There are some mixed Tornado teams in Europe now. One of the better one's are former dutch Europe class sailor Carolijn Brouwer and Sebastien Godefroid. Guess what the former Europe class sailor does onboard?

HAHAAH - that was a good laugh!

yeah, I know. The post was meant as a joke.

But... I'm still not getting on the front of the boat.

Ding's right

I QUIT!
:P

I'm a whore. I don't care where I am on the boat or who's boat it is - I just wanna sail.

Dave - nothing against you or your wife, bud, but until the F18 came along, every Nacra regatta party I went to was a dick forest. Now we have more than one chick boat racing, and several husband/wife, boyfriend/girlfriend teams. Do the math - agree on the difference in effort or not, there ain't no arguing with the numbers.

ah... to be young dumb and full of ...

A wife named bud? Must live in Lake County. Shirley, you must be kidding.

Not argueing with the numbers. But the fairer side is not there because the F18 is an easy or easier spin boat. If that were the case the F16 would be on fire.

There are many reasons why the F18 is getting numbers and everyone has their own priorities. Nobody is happier to see the class grow and to see more women on the boats than me.

But the statement that the F18 is more female friendly than any other 18-20 foot spin boat is just false.

In my opinion the 20 enjoys a crew weight of 350-360 (pounds) , there are very few mixed teams that hit that weight. The F18 happily supports a crew weight from 276 - 340 (pounds), this point works very well for mixed teams.

And John, you've been on the front of both boats so you know.

I've got a Harken tatto (from the downhaul) on my face from some snap tacks that JC threw on me when I was his string b*ch, so I'll stick to the tiller, thank you...

And as I read the F18 fleet is building in number, but are they sailing distance stuff?

In areas where the F18 is popular, yes the F18's are doing the distance stuff. Weren't there 3 or 4 at the Great Texas? Which by the way a Tiger won on corrected time.

That's why I'm saying what I'm saying to what you're saying. I've been on both. The F18 is like being on vacation. I never get tired on that boat, unless I'm up all night writing a protest. And I'm not even in shape. I can one-hand the spin, and the sets/take downs are a snap by comparison once I get the bugs worked out.

Shorter mast, smaller 'chute... it's just plain less effort.

And the F16 is very likely to take off - look how long it took F18 to start really catching on here.

Thread now completely hijacked.




















and don't call me Shirley.

I've been pondering the idea of getting myself into an F18 for the woman and I before she goes into med school. But the more I think about it, the more I think that it'd turn into a divorce boat even though she's real high on the idea.

So I need a 20' if I want to be fat,
an 18' if I want a lady crew,
and a F16 if I lose all my friends and have to single-hand (NO pun intended)?

Hell, just skip the boat and go straight to the divorce. Save you about $12K. Besides, she'd get half the boat.

Okay, we'll agree to disagree.

As for the F16, it caters to the lighter teams. I just don't see a 330 pound team being competitive with a 275 pound team on an F16. Unless the class can do something to level the field for the bigger teams I don't see it gaining the same kind of acceptance as the F18. There is no doubt that the F16's are great boats, but that alone is not going to grow the class. It has to be competitive for a wide range of team weights.

I agree.
The crew does not have to be super-strong. It is a matter of time on the boat and getting those kinks worked out.

A well rigged boat makes all the difference in the world.

Tracie

See for some scientific foundation the analysis performed on REAL race data (Nationals) if you follow this link :

http://www.geocities.com/f16hpclass/F16HP_optimal_crew_weight_analysis.html

By the way 140 kg is the centre of the optimal weight range running from about 125 kg to 155kg.

For US sailors : centre = 310 lbs. The range runs from 274 to 342 lbs.

Naturally the boats will carry more weight but in a less comptitive sense. This range seems to be pretty unbiased over a range of sailing conditions. Actually we all know that weight only really plays a role in the range from 5 to 12 knots. The F16 is pretty power-up in this windrange. Just as powered-up as the F18's as a matter of fact. The direct result of this is that you don't want to be too light when sailing an F16, despite all the gut feelings you may have in contradiction to the science.

For the guys who fall asleep as soon as they see or hear the word science I have another explanation. I'm racing at 145 kg combined crewweight (320 lbs) and I'm finishing in the upper halve of F18 fleets ON ELAPSED TIME ! And I'm depowering that rig as soon as I hit 10 knots. Just last sunday (between two heats of our club race series) I took a 83 kg guy along on my boat for a short ride (he jumped ship from his own F18) under a mainsail alone in 10-12 knots of wind. I'm 82 kg myself = 165 kg on board = 360 lbs ! And he was fully trapping with me hanging overboard when going upwind at speed. That was just with the mainsail ! Guy was yelling :"gee mate, what a boat, never expected this"

We must also not forget that our advertised competitive weight range is only 30 kg (66 lbs) wide (from 125 kg to 155 kg) compared to the 65 kg weight range (115 kg to 180 kg) advertised for the F18's (= 144 lbs). We don't need a system to level the performance of the boat like the F18's have, our target range is already narrow enough to be fair using the same gear. I would even venture to say that we are more fair then the F18's with the performance equalisation system, but you may classify that as my personal opinion.





This is actually of no concern what so ever. The only thing that is of concern is the ingrained believe that short boats are slow and only suited for very small and light people. Time and time again I find that I need take sceptics along for a ride in order to convince them. No amount of "talk" has ever had the same effect. The gut feeling always seems to win out over the science. It is just how people are. No offense to you Ding !

Mind you, often it only takes 2 minutes of F16 sailing in 10 to 15 knots to have the sceptics do a 180.

Now I'm certainly not saying that F16 is the class for everybody. It certainly is not. But any crew weighting between 125 kg and 155 kg and looking to race hard will do well to consider the F16's. Crews from the larger weight range of 110 kg to 170 kg will have good fun sailing or racing these boat recreationally. You'll be surprised how quick these boat can be with 170 kg on them. Hell, I raced a Stealth F16 at 165 kg (with Bard) during the Spring Cup series 2005 in a fleet of over 30 F18's and finished in the upper halve of the final score on elasped time !

All races were in 5 to 12 knots of wind, the range you guys seem to consider the death zone for 165 kg (= 365 lbs) crews on a F18 ! We were doing it at this weight on an even smaller boat with smaller sails ! And we weren't that good as a crew (Bard and I) as we had never sailed together before.

No Dave, the problem (if any exists) is not the lack of any system that addresses the fears of the "heavier" sailors, but the perception most people still have of the F16's. You know, the kiddies boat syndrome !

Ohh by the way. Over here in Europe 155 kg (= 340 lbs) is considered the ultimate weight for the F18's

Fair winds to you all !

Wouter

I heard the other day that F18 Worlds were won 3 of the last 4 years by teams weighing 360 lbs.

They were very likely rock stars and it was blowin'. Wait...who was that? That doesn't sound right.

Got to agree with John. Raced the T for many years and could not believe the difference in load compared to the F-18. One hand to sheet in the kite on the F-18 compared with 2 on the T. As far as sets and drops go, whilst strength is needed and not out of the capabilities of a fit women, the most important factor in good sets and drops is fitness level.

Actually didn't you US F18 sailors do away with the weight equalisation system of the F18 class. Meaning you allow light weight crew to sail with the bigger jib and spi ?

If so then that could clarify the US experience.

Wouter

No. We're full up International F18 rules with the exception of a couple very minor things (like the onboard compass requirement). There was a request from one sailor through their F18 administration in the U.K. to do away with the light and heavy jib/spinnaker combination but it was not very well received there or elsewhere. We continue to use the combinations here in the US (and one of the top 5 NA teams was using the smaller jib & spinnaker sails for lighter crew weight - don't recall who). All sail size/shape, crew weight, crew weight compensations, and platform requirements are consistant globally within F18.

.

Susan Korz had the small sail plan-3rd overall!!!