What is faster, a windsurfer or a multihull?

Today the windsurfers have the outright sailing speed record. But the Australians may change this soon.

(source: ISAF website) Direct link

WSSRC Record Attempt
Kylie Wilson (As Amended By ISAF). Image, Macquarie Innovation:© Robert Keeley, Sandy Point, Victoria, Australia, 18 October 2005

A Star Wars-like craft and Aussie determination are being combined for a crack at sailing’s Outright Speed Record and the elusive 50 knot mark. Victorian sailors Tim DADDO and Simon MCKEON, along with designer Lindsay CUNNINGHAM, will be hoping for favourable conditions at Sandy Point, near Wilsons Promontory, in Victoria, to break the record before their December 16 deadline.

Melbourne based Ronstan is providing the research and development, as well as equipment, to ensure the attempt reaches its fullest potential.



DADDO says it is difficult to describe the look of the hi-tech Macquarie Innovation that will be used in the bid to beat the world record of 48.70 knots achieved by nominee for the ISAF Rolex World Sailor of the Year Award Finian MAYNARD (IVB) back in April.

'Loosely speaking, Macquarie Innovation looks like a camera tripod that has been squashed down and little floats put on the arms with an airplane wing plonked on top,' DADDO said. 'We sit out on a pod to sail it. It’s certainly nothing like your standard yacht. The hardest part is getting it up to speed and stopping it.'

Technically speaking, Macquarie Innovation is an asymmetric trimaran that is powered by a solid aerofoil rig measuring about 7.5m high and 3.4m wide. A previous craft used by DADDO and MCKEON, Yellow Pages Endeavour, broke the speed record with 46.52 knots in 1993. That record was the benchmark for more than eleven years. They hope to get the record back from MAYNARD, who set his speed at the man-made 'French Trench' at Saintes Maries de la Mer in France.

Macquarie Innovation’s design team is confident the 50 knot mark can be broken after extensive testing using computer simulations at the Australian Maritime College in Launceston, Tasmania. All up, a team of 14 will be on hand at the Sandy Point base for the world record attempt.

'Full scale testing has been performed at Sandy Point with some stunning results with peak speeds recorded in excess of 47 knots. The team believes strongly that it is just a matter of time before the world record is returned to Australian shores and that they will have the very significant honour of being the first sailing craft in the world to surpass 50 knots,' the team says on its website.

While it is only a matter of time before an asymetrical "multihull" such as the one in the article above claims the outright sailing speed record from the windsurfer and most likely breaks 50kts, there is no comparison between the speeds of off the shelf windsurfers (the windsurfer rig used to set the speed record utilized a custom asymetrical sail) and production multi-hulls. The production speed record for windsurfers is in the 40 knt range (if I had my issue of Windsurfing Magazine with me I could state exactly what it is), and I doubt if there is a multi-hull out there, other than some wild multi-million dollar one off custom, that could even come close.

You do realize that this is a catamaran forum - right? Prepare to be boarded.

Which one is coolest, a windsurfer or the above 'sailing machine'? Not much of a contest there..

Hope Macquarie break 50 knots soon, as payback for the crash they had earlier.. (but I am nurturing some hope for Sailrocket as well)

Will they take the record? I think so, given the right conditions.

I hope that a boarding is not necessary. I am an avid windsurfer as well as a cat sailer, and the rush of speed is equally intense on both whether it is on my windsurfer or on my cat. Having been lucky enough to spend my entire life around sailboats, i have sailed on everything from beachcats to I-14's to offshore sleds, and nothing I have sailed on can compare to the excitement of cats.

I dont buy the windsurfer is faster arguement.

First - are we talking straight line speed or a race?

In a race - assuming upwind and down - a spin powered cat will stomp anything else available. The bridge to bridge is won by a kite surfer. If they made everyone race back upwind the Tornado's would win. 99% of sailing races have more than one leg, or require a combination of upwind and downwind.

Straight line in a trench in France a windsurfer wins.

Its like asking whats the fastest car? On a track or a drag strip, Dragsters dont go around a track very well,but they go fast in a straight line.

Second - lets talk about how often you go 40knts. Probably never or rarely.

The windsurfers I see are sitting on the beach waiting for the most narrow wind range of any sailing craft. Wow, that's exciting. No thanks. No wonder iWindsurf.com charges so much. You have to subscribe just to be able to sail.

Give me a boat I can sail 90% of the time - and go fast 90% of the time. That would be a cat with a spin.

99% of the windsurfers I see are not going anywhere near 40knts. They are going 20knots back and forth - thats about the same as a cat. The differience is a Cat goes fast in a way wider wind range, and can actually go someplace and come back fairly reliably. A cats wind range is from 5 to 25knts. Whats it got to be blowing to go windsurfing? Over 25? How often does that happen? One day in 30?

In a trench a French guy went really fast. That was genuinely impressive, but I'm not buying that thats the norm.

So, if you are dont anything other than straight line, or if you want to talk about 90% of the conditions, a multi-hull is faster.

If I really want to go over 40, I'll get out the iceboat.

Very intersting I wonder what makes it so. There are obviously faster craft,so then it must come down to intensity . What's your idea on this addiction.

Weymouth Speedweek took place here in the UK last week.

A Hobie trifoiler won the boats section with an impressive average speed over a 500m course of 27.93 knots.

The fastest windsrurfer was only 1.1knots ahead at 29.07knots. However the windsrfer was a professional, the fastest novice was 24knots. I don't think the Trifoiler sailor was a pro but I could be wrong.

To my mind that puts them neck and neck in a 500m drag race.

see http://www.speedsailing.com/Weymouth_2005.htm
and http://www.speedsailing.com/Weymouth_2005_entrants.htm

I think you are right mainly because a windsurfer is righting moment limited and a multihull is not.
It is only a matter of time and money until we see a multihull sailing faster.
Luiz

From the naish site:
"On Dec 3rd, 2003 the Naish Stealth, piloted by Finian Maynard, convincingly set a new 10m2 class WSSC world record. For a limited time, the Naish technology that made history will be available to the public."

ref.: http://www.naishsails.com/wind.html
Custom asymetrical sail
Some speed sailers said that they were using much stiffer batten and mast but the sails are pretty much stock. Top level racers used to have their sails made in company lost to insure better quality control.

I know that Eric Beale broke the 40 knots barrier with an asymetrical wishbone and a custom sail but since the sailmaker got almost no prestige out of that record, everybody reverted back to production sails.

The boards are all custom and there is a speed difference between a fast production board and a custom board but it is not really the speed that changes, it is the control of the board. However, it is possible that going with an asymetrical wishbone might wige then an extra 2%

I don't dont think there is much doubt that a course racing windsurfer is faster around a course than most if not all beach cats at least here on maui. i sail a hobie 18 with some modifications that is prolly about the same speed as a regular TheMightyHobie18. we have been passed like we are going about 1/2 their speed on all points of sail.
maybe there are race results in a good breeze that can verify my observations.
i'd also like to point out that the course racing board uses no daggerboard. just a big butt fin, yet they point like crazy.
i like the less is more approach and hope the boards hold the speed record.

Gareth,

the Trifoiler at Speedweek was 'piloted' by David Tugwell who's on this forum and usually sails a Stealth F16 at Datchet...

Unfortunately just as it looked as tho' they could go even faster (in previous years the same Tri has recorded 30+) they broke a beam and and foil.

He's looking for spares or an incomplete Trifoiler here:
Trifoiler wanted

Windsurfer achieves his top speed in a hurricane like blow doing maybe 100 % or 140 % of the windspeed.

The cats are achieving their record speeds at wind somewhere around 10-15 knots doing over 3 times the windspeed.

That is efficiency mate ! From a technological point of view the cats are a shitload more interesting.

I always wondered why somebody just doesn't take our a large chute in a Katrina and claim the all out speed record body surfing in 80 knots winds.

Wouter

Probably becouse there are nobody around to verify the claim and the small problem of staying on the water, instead of airborne..

Interesting discussion, but no contest really. Bill, your perception is based on seeing only one type of windsurfer, that is like the general public perceptions that all catamarans are Hobies. Wave boards are made for wave sailing and don`t have a good rocker profile for speed yet can reach speeds of 30knots, slalom boards are for flat-out blasting and beam reaching only, speed boards are for breaking records and are optimised to sail on a broad reach, ideally 120deg off the wind, course boards are for course racing, and in anything over 7knots these will be doing their 2nd race before a Tornado has completed it`s first spinnaker hoist, and they will still be going faster up to 30knots of wind, so if you live in California and seldom see over 7knots I`d have to agree with you. If you disagree, invite them to your next club race, windward-leeward. We shared a racing area with formula boards at a major event and when we were one-out on the wire doing maybe 8 knots upwind, they were pointing higher and doing over 20knots upwind, 30 downwind, in about 15knot winds using 11sq mainsails.
Wouter, agree that in order to break records the windsurfers are going out in nuclear conditions, but they are just like cats, more efficient at lower windspeeds, unfortunately they (and any normal cat) can`t match the efficiency of Macquarie or boats like them, who set their original record in less than 20 knots, but normally explode in anything over 20, which is why they don`t have the record now. This is why to break the record the windsurfers are sailing in over 45 knots, in fact Finian`s new record was set in less wind than his last record which he set in winds gusting to 65knots. The higher the windstrength the lower their efficiency ratio, as it is for all sailing craft.
Grob, the Weymouth stats don`t tell the whole story, looking at the speeds I`d bet that the wind was lighter than 25knots, if the windsurfers only got to 27. In these conditions the trifoiler is going flat-out while the windsurfers are waiting for wind. In over 40knots I`d wager the Hobie trifoiler sailor would be looking for more than a few spares for his craft, no disrespect intended, but certain designs are optimised for certain conditions.
Don`t get me wrong, I love cat-sailing and the ability to share it with my fianc`e, and the speed is great compared to a mono, tactically I love the racing aspect, but if it`s honking at over 25knots you`ll find me on my board, going fast.
Anyone who has seen the video clip of Finian doing "only" 42knots will know that there really is no comparison. The only way a Tornado or Hobie Tiger is going that fast is on it`s trailer.

Hi Bill

I allways shared this opionion too, but then this summer in around 4-5 Bft. we were overtaken by a formula windsurfer, while we were reaching with the gennnacker. He was sailing deep like us and passed us easy through our windshadow!! I think in windforce 4-5 we will get smoked from the formula windsurfers on up and down courses, no chance!

As soon as there is less wind (3 Bft) the cat (at least my cat ;-)) will be faster.

Check out this video!!
http://www.wetasschronicles.com/LeDefi2005.wmv

Andi

Wow,

Pretty cool.

What kind of crazy start is that?

That video shows a reach on both tacks.

Bill

It's a "rabbit start" or something like that - the power boat runs down the line and the boards have to start behind the boat...could be interesting if someone gets caught in front of it trying to cut it close - huh.

It looks like it's a variation on the classic Gate start that can be used to start large fleets with an (almost) zero chance of the start gewtting binned.

I'll explain how it works if anyone is interested.

Yea, It's like a gate start where a port tack boat crosses a fleet of starboard tack boats. Everyone has to cross behind the port tacker.

D

Just a few days ago there was a competion in germany hamburg
the race was held during the hanse boat show.

the well known Tornado sailor Roland Gäbler and Gunnar Struckmann sailing on the tornado, were competing against the raceboard windsurfer Moritz Martin (german champion) and the kite boarder Anne Pieper (german champion).

the wind was quite a bit unsteady with lulls and puffs.
the surfer was actually very fast in the puffs, but very slow in the lulls, while the tornado had a much more consistant speed.

the race was won by the tornado.

Katsegler zeigen Surfern und Kitern die Hecks

19.10.2005

Trotz strahlender Sonne war es kalt, der Spätherbst ließ grüßen. Da verstanden es die Zuschauer an den Ufern der Hamburger Außenalster gut, dass sich die Spitzenathleten gehörig warmfahren mussten. Am Vormittag kam es zum Showdown zwischen prominenten Vertretern der angesagtesten Fun-Sportarten
Kiter, Surfer und Segler traten direkt gegeneinander an. Die hanseboot hatte zu diesem Vergleich geladen und die Deutschen Meister Anne Pieper, Moritz Martin sowie Roland Gäbler und Vorschoter Gunnar Struckmann aufs Wasser geschickt.
Die Topathleten litten gemeinsam unter den böigen Bedingungen bei Nordwestwind auf der Alster. Dennoch kam der Welt- und Europameister und Olympiadritte im Tornado am besten zurecht und gewann. Der Deutsche Meister der Raceboard-Klasse hatte beim offiziellen zweiten Run Pech: „Ich brauche die Angleitphase“, so Martin später an Land. „Der Tornado braucht die nicht. Wenn der Wind durchgehalten hätte, hätte ich gewonnen.“

Schwäbin Anne Pieper, Deutsche Meisterin im Kitesurfen, litt am meisten unter den Bedingungen. „Konstanter Wind ist ideal zum Kiten. Glattes Wasser auch. Glattes Wasser hatten wir.“ Die quirlige Pieper wurde offiziell Dritte. „Wir hatten heute einen Vorteil wegen des böigen Windes. Ein Surfer beschleunigt extrem schnell, aber stoppt auch ebenso abrupt, der Tornado segelt gleichmäßiger. Im Duell Katamaran-Windsurfer wird der Weltrekord derzeit von einem Windsurfer gehalten, und ich war sehr gespannt auf den Vergleich. Mein Favorit war der Windsurfer. Ein Kiter ist enorm schnell, aber beim Kiten muss alles stimmen: Kurs und Wind. Ich bewundere Anne, die das heute auf diesem schwierigen Alsterrevier ganz hervorragend hinbekommen hat.“

Tornado bei offiziellem Vergleich Schnellster

"What kind of crazy start is that?

That video shows a reach on both tacks."

Hi Bill,
That`s slalom racing, you reach between bouys, normally a lot closer together, and normally do more "laps". Also the course is mostly set with a cross-shore wind so the sailors are jumping waves out through the surf and then surfing them back in - the inside gybe mark is usually set in knee-deep water in the breakers. These boards are designed for a lot of speed, and don`t go upwind at all, the best you can do with them is close reach. But pull one off the wind and go on a broad reach, and expect to be afraid.... Try not to break ankles in a wipeout though.
The start is a gate start, and I`d agree, it looks crazy !

Going flat out over a 500m course to set records is one thing, but maintaining almost 40knots over 1nm is amazing !

"Speed Sailing - Antoine Albeau Breaks The French Nautical Mile Record"

http://www.neilpryde.com/en/2005/news/news_antoine.php

Humm, say what is the windsurf record for largest distance covered in 24 hours ?

1 nm is peanuts !

Sailboats rule !


Hey does anybody have that video clip of that windsurfer racing one of the ORMA open 60 trimarans. That is a bloody good clip and shows the speed of an ORMA open 60 tri.

Wouter

You can look at it also the other way.

They spend so much money and are still not faster than a windsurfer!
Speed for money: nothing beats a windsurfer!

http://212.147.59.210/ALutz/Medias/Tri%20Racing%20Surfboard.wmv

Hi Wouter,
Say where did you get THAT little piece of info ? Now I`m confused, a sailboard will cover more nautical miles in a 4 hour session of sailing than most other sailing craft can do in 24 hours, so I`m lost as to how you come to the fact that 1nm is a "24hr record" for windsurfers. Check in on
http://www.gps-speedsurfing.com/gps.asp?mnu=user&val=4082&uid=53

Date : Thursday, October 20, 2005
Spot : Strand Horst, Netherlands
Board : T1 RS60
Sail : Naish Stealth 6.5
Fin : Select Lightning Speed 30
Average speed : 34.9 knots (35.4 35.4 34.7 34.7 34.5)
Max. GPS (display) : 37.1 knots
Max. 2 sec. (software) : 37.5 knots
100 m run : 36.2 knots
250 m run : 34.4 knots
500 m run : 34.2 knots
Nautical mile : 26.2 knots
1 hour : 18.1 knots
Distance : 58.0 km
Windspeed : 15.0 knots
Windgusts : 20.0 knots

Interesting that these speeds are set in 15knots gusting to 20, and that he is using equipment that anyone can buy, it is not specialised custom stuff. In fact some fairly high speeds are being recorded on that site by weekend sailors with 5 or 6 year old sails such as the 1999 Neil Pryde Z1 (of which I have 2 sizes !!! )
Yes, maybe ORMA 60`s are faster (on the open sea), but I have 4 boards & 4 sails, and ummm... no ORMA 60 in my yard. (I have made sure there is space for one, though, you never can dream too big !!)

Surfer and Kite surfers overhere have several boards and a multitude of sails and mast. Each for optimal performance in a narrow windrange. The cost of all that is gettting very close to a catamaran. The kite surfers overhere, the serious ones, are spending more on the gear that one spends on a catamaran.

The picture is always more nuanced.

Wouter

Yeah, but I was comparing the cost between the Orma and the Windsurfer...

Also note: that Orma60 has a few reefs in it's mainsail. Wonder what it would be doing if it were using a set of sails and mast specifically designed around the windspeed they were experiencing.

Sure, many windsurfer sailors use a range of gear. But that's partly because they can afford plenty of gear for the cost of a single cat.

And boards are very efficient. Longboards, with one small sail for all conditions, are efficient across the full range of winds. Last time I sailed my Mistral IMCO (just 7.4m2 of sail) against cats I was similar speed around a windward/leeward course to a Nacra 14 square (which is a few points slower than a Hobie 16) that was sailed by an A Class worlds runner-up. That was in about 12-15 knots. In lighter airs the Nacra would have been ahead, around a triangle or in stronger winds the board may have been quicker. The old 12'9" LEchner D2 boards were even faster and I'm sure they'd burn off cats of the same length even upwind in most conditions.

Considering the board is over a foot shorter and carries about half the sail AND the longboards will sail in light winds and in stronger winds than many cats, it's pretty impressive.

Good Formula guys used to sometimes pace our club fleet. Their square-running speed seemed similar to the world A Class champion, upwind they were a little bit lower than the Formula 16s (Taipan 4.9s) with slightly slower VMG.

Compare apples to apples. A 12' board with 7.4m2 of sail would be VERY competitive with a 12' cat with 7.4m2 of sail in just about all conditions, and it would kill it for top-line speed.

Sure we are comparing apples to oranges, but it is too much fun to let the opportunity pass.




How about a 107 kg surfboard with 18.7 sq. mtr sail area ? I bet the cat would knock you so hard that you have to sleep standing up at night.

Two can play this game. We should cats be forced to compare to YOUR specs and not the other way around ?




News flash. catamaran design has advanced a little since the introduction of the Nacra 14 sq. and Hobie 16.

Cat sailors are not asking the surfers to race us on some 80's surf board ? Apples to apples remember. You can to use the lastest and fastest, we get to use the latest and fastest.




Going on this statement alone. Who is FASTER ?

Thanks to the German boat show we have another direct comparison between an olympic Tornado, surfboard and kite surfer. As predicted the cat won, again ! The surfer started immediately to bitch about the weather not stable enough or the water not being flat enough. No guys, the right response would have been :"Congratulation cat sailors, you guys won this match. Be sure to bring that Tornado back next year as you will get a rematch"

I'm loving this, truly

Wouter

Although very humorous, this comparisons between wind surfers and catamarans is about as informative and sensible as comparing windsurfers "speed" to ski boats, or how about comparing a windsurfer to "Geronimo" in an around the world race? How many skiers can a windsurfer pull up in 15 knots of wind?
We have all seen such “gimmicky” competitions as a human sprinter raced against a horse over 100m, and many years ago they used to race planes against cars! I don’t think anyone has really been interested in the outcome as any sort of definitive proof, one way or another, as to the relative “performance” attributes of one over the other?
If “conditions” are applied to any comparison between two very different things, then different results are forth coming. I.E. compare a windsurfer to a cat over, say, a 500-mile coastal race? Or make the comparison through a shore break with 3 metre waves. What about comparing the windsurfer to a “little Americans cup” C class cat around an “Olympic” course in 2 knots of wind? Then compare a windsurfer, sailing in 50-knot winds along a man made channel that is hardly wide enough or deep enough for a cat to actually sail in? It should be obvious to even the dimmest person, that different conditions will achieve far different result and because a cat and a windsurfer are such different craft, there cannot be any really equitable comparisons between their relative speeds, endurance, comfort, or even race, performances. So a windsurfer has been recorded at speeds approaching 50 knots? So what? My car does that in second gear! Is that any sort of a relative comparison?

Wouter, I raised the point because you said boards need a lot of wind and are therefore innefficient. If you want to talk efficiency then surely you should also allow for the fact that boards achieve high speeds with much less rig and much shorter hulls (and lower cost....) AND the boards normally get higher absolute top-end speeds.

I know people like Bethwaite says boards are innefficient because they need wind, but Frank doesn't know modern boards or performance longboards.

"Two can play this game. We should cats be forced to compare to YOUR specs and not the other way around ?"

Sure, it would be almost impossible to REALLY compare specs. But going on and on about the way a boat with 17m2 of sail can beat a boat with 7m2 of sail seems to be like an F16 sailor going on and on about being able to beat a Hobie Wave. Of COURSE the bigger boat is faster, just like the Tornado is faster than an F16. So what? The smaller F16 is still more efficient.

Actually, given that the old "dart specials" and course tandems were damn fast, a big board that costs as much as an F16 could be damn quick!

"News flash. catamaran design has advanced a little since the introduction of the Nacra 14 sq. and Hobie 16. Cat sailors are not asking the surfers to race us on some 80's surf board ? Apples to apples remember. You can to use the lastest and fastest, we get to use the latest and fastest."

Hang on, I was comparing the Nacra 14 (designed about '87??) sailed by an A Class world's runner-up and N14 national champion, to an IMCO designed about '91 and sailed by #5 in the nation but with a best world's place of 25th. Both are ODs of similar age. Sounds pretty comparable to me.

When I compared the FW board to an A Class, I was comparing a 2003 FW board sailed by a guy about mid-way in the national fleet, to a 2003 A Class sailed by the world champion. Sounds pretty comparable to me.

Sure, a 20' cat is normally faster around a course than an 8' FW board. I have made the same point to windsurfer sailors when they get ****. :-)

I'm not saying boards are better than cats, merely saying that both are superb in very different ways and it's a bit rough when you look at merely one criteria (speed around a course in medium winds with no allowance for size) and then use that to say the cat is more efficient.

Darryl, you're right, this is pretty meaningless. But once meaningless comparisons have started it seems reasonable to give another point of view.

By the way, you mentioned a long coastal race. Last weekend in the 110 or 150 mile Coastal Classic in NZ, a board and a Tornado Sport sailed as unnofficial entrants. The boardsailer had a support boat and switched gear at one stage IIRC and beat the Tornado home. Apparently it was mainly an upwind race. Still not comparable (since the board switched rigs) but interesting.

I've never been passed by a wind surfer however I'm not out there sailing in 40 -50k winds.:-) Under 20K not even close.

OK Children, don't you think it's all been said, and frankly becoming incredibly boring by now?

Why not leave the server space available for meaningful posts and discussions?

To that I fully agree.




I remember the Tornado crew reefed their main in the middle of the race, so in effect they changed their rig as well.

But that is the fun of the cat / surfer comparison right. Surfer win some and cat sailors win some and that keeps both of us on our toes.

Wouter

Agreed.

I got bored sailing windsurfers when I was 12 and started sailing cats. Sold my first short board and sails to help finance my first Dart (and cut a lot of grass too around my parents and their friends houses).

Hey Scooby,
the topic was "which is faster", a no-brainer in a straight line, really. I think a Hollander by the name of Jaap van der Rest sailed a standard Dufour Wing to 23,7knots in about 1979, a speed which tallies up nicely with discussions on this forum as to how fast a Tornado has ever clocked down a 500m course. Anyone who remembers the Dufour Wing will say, "but how ???"
Modern windsurfing gear has moved on a bit too since then and the top speeeeed has almost doubled.
Whether you got bored of windsurfing and cut the grass in your neighborhood to finance your first Dart, or whether you gave up windsurfing to cut grass, or whether you smoked the grass, is irrelevant.
Why not have the best of both worlds, I sail cats when its windy and windsurf when it`s insane, so I only have to sit on the beach when there`s less then 15knots (ie not enough to sail cats .)

or will it continue with the boards?
I bet on the proas because of more righting moment, but maybe someone will invent a windsurfer with a "dressable" sail, to reduce drag....
Luiz

23.7 knots on a Dufour Wing...... So there's hope for my old steed...... easy girl, I know you want to do 24 kts..

She'd have to keep away from smoking the grass if she was to do that speed.

I think it would be fun to have comparison races.

I know that when I sailed/raced my windsurfers, the idea of sailing a sailboat was about as appealing as driving a volkswagen compared to a Ferrari. Windsurfering is more like pure sailing as you can feel very clearly exactly what is happening to the sail and therefore react exactly. Therefore I think that windsurfing is a great primer to cat sailing.

Sailing a cat for me is a bit more practical as I use it to carry building materials to the cabin I am building on an island and also the water temperatures where I live are too cold to be getting into and out of @ my age...

Sailing a sailboat (catamaran) is more of a passive activity sort of like golfing compared to hang gliding.

That's interesting that (one of the posts mentioned that) the sailboard was better upwind. My Dufour could clean everyone upwind due to the hull shape but it was a holy terror going straight downwind. Into the water, out of the water, ad nauseum...

I agree with Darrel that comparing a cat and a windsurfer is ridiculous, however with comparison racing we could find out the truth.

What is the current world speed record for a boardsailer?

I am with Steve on the sailing the windsurfer when it is insane and the cat when it is windy and smoking the grass (just kidding) when it's not windy enough...

Hi Luiz,
It`s an interesting thread, those who are bored don`t read ..
I think the proas have a limitation in that they are super-efficient in under 20knots or thereabouts, at which point the loads on them become too high and they explode. YP, Macquarie etc suffer the same fate - 2 great days of almost-record breaking speeds, and then oops, back to the factory for 2 years to raise the millions to re-build the broken butterfly. The forces on the rig and hulls etc, from what I understand are similar to traditional sailing craft in that the load from the rig are transferred to the hulls in the form of heeling moment and in order to combat this the leeward hull must get further away from the rig as the wind gets stronger, the main beams etc must be reinforced exponentially to cope which adds weight, which adds to the forces. I`m no engineer, but I understand that the forces acting on a trimaran rig and platform are MUCH higher than on a keelboat - all the forces are the same except that a keelboat will absorb the additional force caused by a gust by simply heeling over more before it accelerates into the new windstrength, whereas the tri will have nowhere to heel when the leeward ama is fully depressed into the water and the main hull starts to lift - the forces are way higher, and to compound this the drag is at maximum.
This is why the windsurfer design is far more speed-friendly, it may be less efficient at lower windspeeds although debatable : http://www.fanatic.com/cgi-bin/news/news.cgi?id=1130756729&sprache=e&navi_sprache=e
(Doing 29.7knots in 12-14knots cannot be called inefficient).
The fact that as windspeed increases the rig is used to support the sailor`s weight and causes LESS drag on the hull with no heeling moment due to the flexible mast base means that the board stays flat, the main challenge is keeping it from becoming airborne and maintaining good contact between skeg and waterflow, a spin-out at that speed will most likely end up in a few bruises at least.
Yes the windsurfers are using really high windspeeds to get their records but as can be seen from the link I gave this will start to change, although efficiency will always drop exponentially as the conditions get stronger whichever craft you use. If you use the efficiency ratio of the windsurfer in the link posted above, you would expect the windsurfers to break 50knots in 24,07knots of wind, we know this to be impossible or they would have run at 100knots in 50knot winds.
If the proa`s and other strange craft want to be the first to 50 they will have to either increase their efficiency in light winds (sub-20knots) or increase their maximum wind-range while maintaining their efficiency ratio.
Good luck to all who make the effort. I remember it wasn`t too long ago when the critics said the boards would NEVER break 40knots, and a while before that they would NEVER break Crossbow`s record (36knots).

I wonder how much worth the materials in MI or Yellow Pages are?

Personally, I believe both the windsurfers and foiled proas will beat 50 knots, only the proas have more room for improvement, so could do it earlier. All windsurfers can do is reduce the drag from the crew's body. Foiled proas may still explore supercavitaing foils and different sail shapes. Structural issues tend to be minimized by better technology.

I second the Rolf's question about YPE cost of materials. Shouldn't be so much, after all it is a small boat. From what I read, it is the sail that is complicated, difficult to build and expensive. Anyone knows how much they spend on the toy yearly?

Luiz

Hi Luiz,
I agree, in time both camps will go over 50, it`s inevitable, they have been so close many times. Finian has reported speeds of over 50knots on GPS, but to maintain that over 500m is the hard part. There is a lot of excitement as to who will be the first to break 50knots, will it be the boards or the hi-tech proa foiling boats ? It is almost more important to be the first than to hold the record, it seems.
I think the cost of a boat like MI speaks for itself that they broke it last November, and are only ready to try again now, a year later. Added to the material cost is the labour cost of highly skilled engineers and designers like Lindsay Cunningham. I think it is actually much more difficult for them to finance and build these craft since there is no commercial use for them, and very little gain other than personal satisfaction, I am sure that their sponsorships only cover the cost of building and maintaining their boat, maybe it covers more, but does it pay the salaries of these highly skilled people, I don`t think so. I believe they are doing it in their own time at their own cost to a large degree.
In stark contrast to this, the boardsailors are mostly paid professional sailors, and have rig and board manufacturers sponsoring their efforts, and constantly developing new technology to make them go faster, as there is quite a big financial incentive to be the "world`s fastest sailmaker" or "world`s fastest board manufacturer" - It is commercially viable as it converts directly into more customers for these brands ie if you want to go fast, buy an F2 board and a Naish Stealth sail.
I fully admire the efforts of the YP/MI crew and others as I think it is much harder for them - you won`t see MI travelling to many different locations world-wide to try for the record due to the costs, they have to concentrate their efforts in one place, luckily they have Sandy Point !
Have a look here - http://oceanspirit.co.za/speedweek/html/15oct.html
There is just so much depth among the boardsailors trying for the record that it seems inevitable they will get there first.
I have to disagree with you on one point, you say the proa`s have a lot of room to improve, and you think the boards can only reduce drag of the crew - the design of boards, sails, masts and fins have changed radically in the last 5 years and i don`t think they will stop developing, boards are now being designed with air-pipes that funnel air in from holes in the deck and channel it through the board that exit under the tail to make the board ride on a cushion of air, fins are getting faster and more stable (a major limit on speed in the past was cavitation, this is being overcome), sails are just getting better all the time, and mast flex/stiffness is a mixture of art and science.
Interesting that Finian tried a wind-cheating lycra type suit in the canal, but sailed in Namibia in shorts and a harness, and didn`t shave his head to reduce drag ! (or his legs )

Wouldn't it be a big laugh if MI got there first just the same.

Wouldn't that say something ?
Wouter

Wouter,
I don`t for one second believe that they could very well be the first to do it - And would sincerely applaud their acchievement (while secretly hoping the boards steal it back in the dark of night )
It`s great to see the two diverse approaches taken and the outcome.
Interesting to see at recent Weymouth Speed Week a Hobie Trifoiler not too far off the pace of the fastest board, although light conditions prevailed.
If they want BIG WIND they should be in Port Elizabeth this afternoon, pity about the 5m swell, sorry for the Hobie guys, they seem to be struggling to get all the racing in!

Yes, IF it happens it would prove that a much larger, more expensive, more complicated and more fragile boat is sometimes slightly faster than a cheap and simple alternative.

That's not exactly news, though.

Just a question.

How did the old Yellow Pages endeavour record stand ?

Apparently things aren't that easy for the board guys as some would like to make it appear.

Besides I'm still waiting for the guy who takes out a sheet of that strong farmers platic in a Hurrican Katrina like storm and shows us all how to better 50 knots with some 10 dollar hardware.

Wouter

IMO, I found it allways dissapointing that these 'record breaking machines' sail only in one direction.

A real boat can sail in both directions

Yes, but can it do 45knots?

Wouter, combining several of your comments gives...



I remember Katrina posting winds of 175 mph. At 140% that has our farmer windsurfer pushing 245 mph!!

Great ride until you fall.

Actually, I believe I did witness that event last week in hurricane Wilma, although it was blowing close to 70 miles per hour. The guy was securing a silt barrier (heavy cloth material, like a cat trampoline)to keep it from tearing up his pool screen, and got dragged across a small pond about 50 feet before he let go.

Too bad it wasn't set up as a sanctioned speed course.

"How did the old Yellow Pages endeavour record stand ?"

A combination of factors : It was (and still is) a damn hard speed to beat. Your average joe windsurfer who sails on weekends probably hardly ever goes quicker than 25knots.
Added to that, speedsailing fell from interest for many years, not a lot of effort was being put into that aspect of the sport in the 90`s. If no-one is tring to break records, they don`t get broken !
Now that there is a lot of interest again, we could see the record changing hands more than once a year, and there will be many more challenges from other boat-like craft, who are actually as far removed from sailing craft as windsurfers are from hot-air balloons.
"Apparently things aren't that easy for the board guys as some would like to make it appear."
I couldn`t agree more - makes the acchievement of Finian Maynard all the more remarkable, has broken the world speed record twice in as many years, after it stood for 11 years.

I won`t be at all surprised if a kitesurfer rocks up and gets there first either, a while back windsurfers were laughing at kitesurfers trying to go fast, now they are almost at the same pace.

Speaking of Yellow Pages, come on Wouter - your hulls at least are the right colour - just add hydrofoils and an I-20 rig, and go out in 45-60knots, you should set up a decent speed while cartwheeing down the North Sea ??

Agreed for the outright record. But a record is not the end of the story.
The multihull concept can be scaled up and the windsurfer can't. Boats of other sizes and for other uses benefit from YP/MI improvements, while an even faster windsurfer will remain stuck as a one person daysailing craft.

It'd be interesting to see a 60 ft windsurfer sailing against the ORMA 60 tris :-)

Interesting perspective....so what it really breaks down to is what the control system is capable of. We probably won't see a 60' windsurfer because they're already terribly unstable - especially at those speeds! There is not a mechanical system that can respond quickly enough to keep the craft on it's toes...there's barely a human that can directly control a 10' version (or whatever) in the wind required to get it up to those speeds. The windsurfer is very refined to match the size and power to what a human can control but it's far too twitchy for a mechanical system to handle so it's size and efficiency is pretty limited.

The next problem is finding lower water resistance (smooth water and foils) and adequate wind power. If you can be more wind efficient and go faster with less wind, your chances of finding smooth water are much better - not to mention finding weather windows of opportunity is much easier as well. The foil thing is becoming a pretty solid limitation in that most of the existing foils are having a hard time maintaining proper flow and lift through the water at 50+ knots.

So the next step to go faster than windsurfer is to build a more efficient craft - but it has to be larger - which means it's outside of human strength realm leading to mechanical control - which means it has to be more stable for the mechanics to handle it. This has lead us to the designs we see with MI and Sailrocket and they are still struggling with the foils. Maybe a planing version of these guys with a vertical fin (in the spirit of the windsurfer) might be the ticket? They'll loose some efficiency and have to sail in stronger breeze - but maybe they can maintain control.

Hey sorry I've missed the discussion as I'm a windsurfer who's done a fair bit of slalom and course racing. Steve that's cool to hear that Formula gear is that fast at all points of sail as I've held off getting such gear as after trying one once it was just such hard work sailing with an 11 meter sail!

I remember when the tornado worlds were here in Bermuda, though before the spinikars were allowed we could quite easily beat them on slalom gear on reaches, probably not upwind though.

The problem with windsurfers are that weight and size give a huge advantage, so the speeds Finian Maynard gets are way off what an average sailor gets. Skill and gear also are really important so that a smaller sailor can go fairly fast but, then they need a custom board with a flatter rocker as most smaller slalom boards are built as super high wind boards for bigger sailors! But in the end size is what counts, so you'll never see a world record being set by a 5'6" 140lb guy!

The average speed of general windsurf gear has dropped these days as freeride easy to sail boards and no cam sails become the fashion these days. The race boards from the early to mid nineties were the stuff, but it made learning to gybe so difficult for the average weekend windsufer that many people were put off the sport!

But it's great to see speed is back on the agenda, I'm hoping to dust off my old custom Van en Berg 8.8 and try out a new 6.2 Neil pryde race sail to see what I can get on the GPS. Also for reference in 12-14 knts of wind I'm getting about 23mph on the reaches. I'm on a 7.5 meter sail which is pretty small for that stuff, should be on a 9.0 for the board I was using. But looking at that Fanatic link, those guys were going between 28 and 29kts in 12-14 kts of wind which is amazing and shows the increased efficiency of the newer windsurfing gear. Here is a link to a windsurfing speed website for GPS users.

http://www.gps-speedsurfing.com/gps.asp

Anyway I've yet to get a go on the tornado, I'll have to get around to it, but I'm looking forward to seeing what it is like.

Scott

The main difference is conceptual.

Windsurfers are a minimalistic solution, with the crew providing most of the stability, rig and directional control. This concept is very complicated to scale up without giant human clones...

The proa's stability is provided by both geometry and crew weight, with separate rigging and control systems, so its concept may be scaled up with relative ease and also used in other multihulls.

I'd love to see a mega proa on foils for offshore racing.

maybe less drag

Lets have the giant human clones.
(I'd like to see that)

I'll wait till the movie comes out I reckon.