First photo of new M&M Nacra Formula 18

Enjoy:

http://forum.myphorum.de/read.php?f=12763&i=4346&t=4346

this would have been easier


Sexy

More pictures...





[img]http://www.catclubzeeland.nl/e107_images/newspost_images/nacra_f18_infusion_1.jpg[/img]

So this is now the third iteration of a Formula 18 from Performance? The Inter 18, the "old" Nacra Formula 18 and now this boat? Looks state of the art with snuffer, self-tacker-

Kirt

wow those hulls look very ... bouyant.

Well...the I18 was never built to be a formula 18 boat - it was designed before F18 came about. Nacra has gone through a few iterations with the F18 though but the Nacra F18, until now, has had the same hulls.

I liked the old design better, but I guess life would be boring without change.

Jake,

The Inter 18 was designed by Morelli and Melvin to compete as a Formula 18 from the beginning. In the U.S., most opted for the optional carbon mast, and later, larger sails. The carbon masts never went to Europe, not being legal in Formula 18. Those in North America who bought the Inter 18 were racing single manufacturer one-design, as the North American Formula 18 Class Association had not been formed until the Nacra F18 hit the market. The carbon mast (with F18 legal sail plan) was grandfathered into the NAF18 for a year or two, but is outlawed now.

Looks like the resale value of the F18's just went in the toilet. What is this, the 3rd F18 version from Nacra if you do not count the 3 or 4 versions of mast they have tried. You can get a full blown I18 set up for about the same as an old Hobie 18 if you look around. I guess our friends in Europe are driving these descisions but it seems to make it a tougher sell to get things off the ground in the states, where we were just starting to be able to sell the formula concept. ???

Formula = Development = cost = speed

That is the way it is with a development / box rule. But it works - you cannot fault 130 (IIRC) boats at regatta's over here and most of the top bods there.....

People make to much of the lastest F18 models.

Just sail your Inter-18, if you are not regulary sailing in the top 20 % of a competitive fleet then there is absolutely no reason to sell your Inter-18.

There are still enough Inter-18's racing overhere. And all older F18 boats get a new lease on life when they are bought and owned by new sailors or sailing looking to get into the F18 class for an affordable price.

Sadly the US inter-18 have some modifications that puts them out of the F18 fleet, this maybe be hurting resale value, but not the fact that newer model F18 came out.

Wouter

Echoing Wouter's comments and as an existing Nacra F18 owner, I'm not all that worried. Yes, I realize that my resale value drops a bit but I don't plan on selling it anytime soon. I'm really happy with my boat and the speed I get with it. All the F18s (I18s asside) are so close in speed that if I loose to someone on the course, it's because I'm not sailing at 100% potential - not the boat's fault.

Nacra isn't alone in this - all of the F-18 boats currently in production have made substantial enough changes that an owner of a two-year-old boat might feel a twinge. I've seen it happen to all of my friends, but I'll be an owner come March anyway.

Has Hobie changed the Tiger hulls/boards? I thought they only changed the snuffer and tramp.

The hull laminates have been "re engineered" since their first hulls. The original hulls would "dent" on the outer skin (which was very "light") almost if you only looked at it, they are now much more "dent" resistant, and there have been a few sail cut changes as well as "hardware", and spi' chute, and the trampolines are now set up completely different from previous.

Hobie also added lightweight carbon daggerboards and rudders recently too. However, I would agree that the Tiger has probably had fewer changes than most other F18s and this is because they have been at the front of the pack at all major F18 events. They also have considerably more resources contributing to development of the rig. If the Tiger begins to slide out of the front of these regattas, you can certainly expect a new Tiger shortly thereafter.


This is just what you need to expect from any formula class like the Formula 18, A class, and F16. The most active classes are going to see the most design iterations as the manufacturers fight for dominance. But again, like I said before, while the changes are exciting and revolutionary in appearance, the effort on part of the manufacturer and designers is fighting for a 1-2% (or less) advantage on the water. I would estimate that my skill at sailing these boats is extracting anywhere between 80% and 95% (when in our sweet spot of wind strength) out of the boat. Will 1% help me? Maybe...but not as much as going out to practice practice practice with the boat that I have.

OI! TonyFX1 - Not sure that the person that gave you those pics wanted them posted as they are not of the finished article. They were good enough for me and I have ordered my boat for FEB. Started my diet already.

I want one - hmmmm how can I convince the wife that this is in our best interest to have one - any ideas?

Convincing your wife about buying a F18 ?
Wake up please ;-)

Convicing our wifes to purchase ANY beachcat for that matter!!!

wont be hard for me...

You have to always present the sunnier side of the situation....

"well honey, at least its not a motorcycle and its something that we can do together! I was thinking of all the time we could spend together on the beach when I bought it."

Just dont tell her that "spending time on the beach" means you rigging, and her drinking mojitos.

Word!

Well, if she's on the front of the boat it's a lot easier. If she aint on the the front of your boat, then you are on your own.

Ding

Tell her it gets great gas mileage and never needs tires or oil changes, just an occasional tune up and new clothes.

Yea It's That Easy!!

Okay, put the shoe on the other foot, guys. How do I convince my husband that I need a new trampoline, sail, mainsheet and blocks? (And I'm talking about my boat, not my body.)

In a two-boat household, whose boat do you think gets priority? I guess this is why guys don't REALLY want their wives getting so interested in sailing that they want their own boats -- doubles all the costs.

Hey Mary,

Make him swap boats all the time. At a regatta he sails boat 1 and you sail boat 2. At the next regatta he has to sail boat 2 and you sail boat 1. Each regatta you switch. That would force him to keep both boats pretty similar and current.

Or maybe like the old cake slicing thing. With two kids the one slices the cake and the other gets to pick the slice he wants. It encourages the kid doing the slicing to make equal size slices. So if Rick is the one maintaining the boats then you are the one who gets to pick which boat you sail each time.

Good idea, Jamie.

Just pirate Rick's boat on the water. I'm sure you can take him

Trey
N20 873
www.velocitysailing.com

Boomer,Oranje Natuurlijke. I've got a T-Cat of that era on the rack now ready for Aviation Orange, graphics coming later.

Mary are you trying to say you want a sewing machine for christmas

Yeah, actually I do. How perceptive of you.

A sewing machine with triple-stage zig-zag, 12inch arm and walking foot would be a very welcome sight under the tree for others also..

Hey david,

Hoeveel ken jij van de Nederlandse taal ? Heb je een Nederlandse familie achtergrond ?

Wouter

Wouter
Jy moet presies se met watter David Jy wil praat. Daar is heelwat Davids in die wereld wat graag n soort Nederlands praat.

David Tilley,
Van waar af kom jy dat jy so mooi die taal ken ? Ek dog jy was `n Amerikaner. Daar is nou `n hele groep manse wat irriteerd gaan word omdat hul glad nie verstaan waaroor ons praat !

"David Tilley,
Of where bowl jy that do jy so nicely know that language? Ek of dog jy was ` n Amerikaner. There nou ` n complete group of man are what goes irritated become
because wrap in nie understand waaroor our praat!"

See ! we know what you are saying
"I Think"

Ooh, Dermot, that sounds gaelic to me (but my ribs are sore from laughing !! it`s even funnier if you translate directly to english (and no, it`s not Dutch either.)
I guess it`s safer to stick to English on this forum, bad enough we often mis-understand eachother due to perception differences caused by our varying understanding of the same thing.
oh and on the original topic, I`ll agree with whoever said it looks very ... bouyant (I think Maughan ?)
Looks like they used a new building process where you inflate the hull before it cures, and they forgot to stop at the correct pressure.
Does look like it can handle more weight and be pushed quite hard before the bow goes under though. Does seem a bit worrying that they are launching a new hull shape though, will that not make the last Nacra F18`s a bit obsolete ? And how does that work out when a "Nacra F18 Nationals" is held, all boats are meant to sail off the same rating but there will be performance differences between hull shapes. In my opinion this is vastly different from the Hobie strategy, which seems to be working.

We've already been over the obsolete thing...show me the obvious speed advantage before you start calling my boat "obsolete"! I still believe the differences will be pretty minor to most sailors.

How they are going to handle the Nacra Nats and Worlds is a good question...but to me, I think they have clearly committed to be an international Formula 18 boat without regard for the manufacturer class at this point...however, just because the hull has a different shape, doesn't mean that the older boats are worthless and uncompetitive (see previous posts).



Heh? Working? While they may have more active "Hobie Tiger Class" boats they're platform has remained the same because it has a good track record at major F18 events. If they slip in the results to some of the new development do you think we'll see a new F18 from Hobie? I feel pretty certain that we would...boy, wouldn't that mess up the "strategy"? Exactly which strategy are you referring too? HCA's fence straddling to maintain a Hobie one design class and a competitive F18 platform? This has worked thus far because there have not been major changes in the Tiger platform to date but they have had to make uncharacteristic class modifications to keep the Tiger class in phase with the Tiger F18 development.

In my opinion, I don't see why I would go to great lengths to participate in a one manufacturer class with my F18 when I have six times as many and four times as large F18 events around the country. Part of the reason that I chose the boat I sail on currently, however, is because the manufacturer class rules mirror those of F18.

No it is Afrikaan, nie ?

I can read and understand it pretty well, but if I use that grammar and spelling in any report overhere I'll be looking for a new job for sure.

Afrikaans and Dutch have drifted some ways apart over the last 200 years.

Wouter

Stay tuned, I'm designing a new 18 from the ground up, will be the fastest boat yet!

Regarding the new Nacra Formula 18:
1. Some will not like its looks. There will be people that prefer the "sleeker" look of the older boat. New boat has wide hulls.
2. There is not a tremendous difference in speed mostly pointing. I do not know why but the newer boat crabs up on puffs a bit better.
3. Older design will be better in the lighter winds due to the thinner hull shape.


Newer design offers:
1. More bouyancy
2. Seems to sail with a bit less rocking in waves.
3. Skipper and crew sail a bit further back on boat, as that is where the fatest part of the boat is.
4. Trampoline sits a little higher out of the water so fewer waves will hit the back crossbar.

Old boat will not be obsolete, as the Capricorn has not yet displaced all other boats on the market, and this boat uses similar concepts. It will take a couple of years to prove any added performance, I think.

All that said, I liked sailing on it. I would like to try racing it.

Later,
Dan

Dan, when I sailed the old boat style, I could easily push the bows under while going downwind when on the wire. That was a major reason I did not buy one. Maybe that is why they fattened them up? Have you noticed a big difference in bow-stuffing resistance with the new boat? I think it looks cool, alot like the Yeves Loday designs.

Hi Jake,
didn`t mean to hit a nerve with the "obsolete" boat comment. All I meant was, as you agree, holding a class regatta outside of F18 will be tricky. Perhaps they should have just called it the M&M F18, and dropped the Nacra label, would start a new class that fits in F18, positive outcome is that a new OD class could then also grow out of that if numbers allow. In some areas / countries, F18 does NOT exist but Hobie Tiger OD class does, even though you believe they are not OD because of all the changes, they are closer to OD than SMOD, (except that you STILL have to buy most bits from Hobie ) If they (Hobie) decided to change the hull shape it would adversely affect sailors in these areas / countries. You would then have Old Tigers and New Tigers, a situation that is undesirable, even if on paper they all have equal performance. As it is with Hobie, you can buy an older boat, do a few upgrades and be at the sharp end of F18 sailing (skill permitting, of course !) That`s what I meant by their strategy - keep the boat the same as long as possible. I`m sure if another make starts winning F18 convincingly they will launch a new boat, but would be remiss to call it a Tiger (in my opinion.) I think Nacra might be hurting their own sales potential by launching a new boat so soon after their latest model (ie yours), it gives sailors the impression that they are not stable as a supplier, like the new car market you wonder how long you`re going to find spares these days because they change models every year.
Just an opinion, like everything I`ve ever written it could be wrong.

Steve,

You're right about one thing - I do seem to have a sensitive nerve about this!

I guess this could be a glass half full / glass half empty kind of thing. The way I look at the fact that Nacra makes a lot of changes is that here is a manufacturer that has embraced F18 and is trying to find a competitive edge. While, on the surface, it does make older equipment first appear to be quickly obsolete, I do have a manufacturer that is doing a lot of development to keep me fast (and this includes the old platform too) and is not worried about making compromises to keep a SMOD class happy.

With regard to SMOD classes - I didn't buy my boat for SMOD. I bought it to race F18 (OD) as did most F18 sailors worldwide. As you indicated in a different thread, I can buy any fitting or rig just about any way using any line I want - or have a sail made the way I want...this is what I like...I can even make the whole boat in my back yard if I felt up to the task.

One point that hasn't been brought up yet is how is NACRA going to handle the Nationals next year in Racine? Are they going to seperate the F18's into two classes? Will they run them together as an F18 class but not allow other manufacturer's boats? Or will they open it up to all F18's?

I don't know what the right answer is to this question. The event is in August with the NAF18's in September. I think if they open it up attendance would suffer at the NAF18's being that they are so close to each other.

Putting the two models together or seperate is going to piss people off either way. It's kind of a no win situation.

Mike Hill
www.stlouiscats.com

One of the first Nacra F18 nationals was an open event to the Tigers...subsequent events were closed. I can sorta see why it might be closed event (since it's the "Nacra" nationals and all)...but then again, if the manufacturer is fully embracing F18, perhaps an open event makes sense. Regardless, if it comes to decide one over the other, there's no way I'm missing the North American F18 Championships in Lake Carlyle. I think the affect on events might be that the F18 North American's will draw attendence from Nacra NA's...not the other way around.

Timbo: Stuffing the bows underwater is not such a big deal. The big deal is do they come out? I think that the older design sheds water pretty well. I sail a Tiger and I am always concerned when the water is on the deck. With the deck being so flat it likes to stay underwater longer than the older design of the Nacra F18. I have stuffed it to the crossbar downwind and saved it but that is do mostly to the incredible crew that I have. She sticks to the boat like glue and has never fallen so far forward as to pull the boat over (knock on wood).

The new Nacra is designed to take advantage of the fact that you may sail in swells. If it goes down it will shed water better than even the older F18. As far as it getting there in the first place the bow seems to stay higher out of the water without too much tendency to submarine. The boat steers very easily downwind. It kind of sits up and goes were you point it instantly. I think it may be easy to over control it, steer too much. As a matter of fact, very similar to the way a Hobie Fox steers downwind.

Dan

Timbo,
first I believe you sail an N20, and from my experience it is a difficult transition to the F18, even the NACRA F18. I found that it just seemed underpowered, and when it stuffs, it stuffs quick, unlike the N20 which will power up out of almost anything. Most bow stuffs are recoverable though, and the majority of the pitches are done on tight jib reaches, with little time to recover when its puffy. As I look at this design I dont see alot of meat forward like the N20, s Im not sure if it will help this tendency or not, I think 2 more feet will though!
I love both boats, but they are apples and oranges. Now the Tiger and the NACRA F18, they are so close that I dont think anything but pilot skill will seperate those, not even this shiny new design. And although I worry slightly about resale on my 2004 NACRA F18 with this new design, I dont think it will be a big deal on the course. Looks cool though!

If the last part is true than you have wonder why they need another NF18

The Nacra F18 Rules are just the same as the IF18 Rules with the exception that you have to use Performance components (there are some exceptions like blocks and line) to be able to race in Performance Race Week. The F18 and F18 Infusion will race head to head at Racine.

Performance hosted the first two NAF18 North American Championships as part of their Performance Race Week. First in Traverse City, Michigan and then the next year in Pensacola Beach. I heard that there was a bunch of crap that came from the Hobie-only crowd in Pensacola Beach and Performance said "never again". The good thing is that the NAF18 was on its feet by then and has been able to conduct their Championships without additional help from Performance.

I truly believe that there would be no NAF18 if it weren't for Performance, because Hobie resisted it (I don't hink it fit well with their plan to eliminate all non-Hobies from Hobie fleet-run regattas).

I don't resent Hobie for driving a "Hobie-only" campaign, even though I think it is bad for beach cat racing in general. I congratulate them for it! Good business if it works! If it doesn't, they are no worse for it. I think they believed it was the answer to reviving the glory days of the early 80's, and it may turn out that way. We will see. I would love to see 300 boats at a regional championship like I saw in Traverse City in 1981 or 1982! Rick and Mary, I saw you there, sanding your yellow TheMightyHobie18 hulls with 600 grit wet-or-dry! (Maybe it was only Mary doing the sanding, but I saw Rick someplace!) It was a special event and I will never forget seeing all those boats with their sails up getting ready to leave the beach in the morning. Unfortunately, Division 10 no longer has any races.

How did I get here? Must be old age and hardening of the water (it is freezing up here in Michigan!). Sorry for wandering around so much...just seemed to come out!

I was also NAF Vice Commodore at that time and was at the meeting with "the Crap"

The "crap" that you mentioned was NOT from the Hobie side of the participants. I don't want to stir up old stuff, we are well past all that. Hobie Cat Pres Doug Skidmore even showed up to show support for the event and the class. If things were handled better we would be a lot further ahead with F18 in this region. We made it thru all the BS and thanks to Tracie VH and a solid group of volunteers F18 is the fastest growing class in NA right now.

I will address the alleged crap OFFLINE & personally only

Division 10 has been growing again recently with the hard work of Jeff Rabidoux,Matt Bounds, John Bauldry, Lori Mohney and others. They held two HCA sanctioned regattas last year. I was at "Ragata de Gatos" in Port Burwell. It's a great site on big water and we had a great time. They served Margaritas, Salsa and had a great Chicken Fajita dinner.
Attached: Port Burwell Beach H16, H17,H20, Tiger all there.

See, now THIS is how to derail a thread.

Jake: I can do much better than that. Tom and I formed C.R.A.P a long time ago in his kitchen over many beers. "Catamaran Racing And Partying" has been very successful for some time now. We have thought about T-shirts and a membership.

Pat,

What do you require for people to join your C.R.A.P. organization? Can I be a member if I design your T-shirt? You might amend the name to C.R.A.P.Y. "Catamaran Racing and Partying Year-round."

Membership is typically earned by providing a "Cuba Libre" to the founding fathers. Membership is kept secret(ie Skull & Bones). We don't schedule any meetings and when they are over we usually don't recall having them. You are more than welcome to submit T-shirt designs and attend the next meeting. Could be tonight at Amores. The national meeting will probably be Saturday night of the Madcatter.
Attached: Members at a meeting. Casting a thumbs up for something important.

I nominate Jake for HONORARY membership in CRAP/CRAPY.

I'll take my cuba libre @ Tradewinds!!!

Much more positive thread derailment!!!!

Hey Jake design away!!!

TK - are you working on getting Billy to go to Tradewinds?

I'm working on getting some boats from Detroit down there, but I've got to con some poor sucker (John) to drive a triple stack.

(and, yes, I'd be bringing the "big boys" boat)

I hope they are not so close together, if they are, Im heading for the F18 championships over Nacra championships.

OK, Jake's in with a nod from the MI chapter president.
He will serve as chapter president for SC. We are having a distance race at the Madcatter on Friday that Tom is running. Can anyone compete in that? I don't see why not.
Bring those F boats and join the party for the weekend.

Pat, is that scheduled to start AFTER the Madslapper Hockey session Friday morning?

Hey Ollie, You will have to ask Tom about that. I would think you guys could do 8am hockey and noon sailing. I am reduced to a mere hot dog cooker for the regatta.

Ollie,

Heading to Fri Morn Skate right now. As I am in charge of the distance race you WILL be able to do both!!!!

Call me about Tradewinds -=0=-

In just read this press release from Nacra Europe:

"Performance Cat USA has let us know that the new Nacra F18 infusion will not be shown at Paris boatshow, Salon Nautique. The reason for this is that Nacra international wants to show the final production model of the F18 infusion and there were only some cosmetic details being finished up on the decks. After several months of sailing, Perfomance Cat wants to deliver the best product available and will make sure that when the boat is standing at a International show that the boat shown is the real thing."

Turns out at least 2 crews at my sailing club have ordered the new Nacra F18 called the infusion. In my conversation with one of the new owners I also heard its new nickname : The Nacracorn. (or Nacricorn).

One crew has sold their Inter-20 in order to go F18. Seems like the same thing is happening in the Netherlands as is happening in Florida.

I just read that Nacra is now serious with persuing the Inter-20 One design class globally. The EU F20 sailors are offered an upgrade package at (what they say) a discounted price. This means a larger mainsail, probably the same one as the US Inter-20. After that they are closing the class rules to "all parts mus be bought with Nacra" and the class goed Single Manufacturer One Design class, implicitly leaving the Formula 20 class. It is doubtful that the F20 class setup will survive. But if it does survive than it surely will totally rejuvinate and see an exiting time in the future with new models coming out. Personally I doubt wether it will survive however; F20 was never as broadly accepted around the world as the F18 class.

In short we are looking at some additional grow in the F18 class from I-20 sailors jumping ship to the F18. I must be said however that alot of crews already jumped ship in the last two years because the F18 world championship was held in The Netherlands during 2005.

So the catamaran scene overhere is once again on the move, with the F18 class as the single exception. It is looking to grow as a result.

Wouter

I, for one, and very happy they actually gave this boat the name "Infusion" instead of "F18".

I prefer F18 - 'Infusion' sounds like a hair product.

I guess its better than calling it the Nacra Vacuum Bag.

It is actually a juicer-hair relaxer.the Nacra Infusion MKI,for dry sailors on the wagon,storage bag's for carrot supply include.! MKII for normal sailors comes with Megaphone, flares and years supply of protest flags and MKIII for greaseball sailors with extra none-skid on the platform and an Uzi. All models come with remote mounted full time live F18 video/photomaker Christmas/Festivus card format. Oh and Wouter thanks for single-handedly killing off the F20 division world wide.

Well, I wouldn't worry about the F20 class. Once you guys all get fat, you'll be back!

The N20 offers it all to me.... A boat I can be fast on that still allows me to wolf down that greasy reubin sandwich and beer while I'm "training"...

When my team gets too heavy to be competitive for N20? Hmmm, the ARC 22 has a ring to it... I think I can even mount a grill on that thing....

Class or not, the majority of cats out there today are good, solid boats with a core of loyal followers. Rock-stars, and those wanting to be, will move from fleet to fleet.

Having only been on the multihull scene for about 6 years, I'd be interested to see if the rock stars as a group ever go back to a fleet they left in the past (other than Olympic class boats)...