Blade F16 as Alter Cup Boat 2007 ?

The following is really some interesting bit of news

The minutes from a recent US Sailing Multihull Council annual meeting state that a bid has been received from the Melbourne Yacht Club (Florida, USA) to host the 2007 Alter Cup and that Vectorworks Marine will supply 11 new Blade F16's.



It is a big decision for any big boat builder like Hobie and Nacra to supply 11 new boats free of charge, imagine a relative new company like Vectorworks Marine doing just such a thing as well ! But Vectorworks Marine took the jump and the bid is official now.

The Blade F16 will be rather comparable to the Alter Cup boats of late, with the exception of the Hobie 16. It features an asymmetric spinnaker as did the Tiger, F18, Bim jav 2 and Inter 20 before it. It also has a selftacking jib and a snuffer system for the spinnaker, making the demands placed on the crews a little less strenious. In all other aspect it will be a state-of-the art competition catamaran. With the newest large squaretop mainsails, the newest hullshape and a real wingmast (unlike the commonly encountered teardrop shape mast)

It will differ however in some important other aspects.

The Blade F16 will be lightest Alter Cup of (at least) the preceding 8 years and may even become the lightest Alter Cup boat to have ever been used. (A hobie 14 is 2 kg = 4lbs heavier then the Blade F16). This honour is currently held by the Bimare Javelen 2 of 2003 that was (on average) 135 kg. The Blade F16, by being 107 kg, will nearly take 30 kg (= 65 lbs) of this record.

This is something the crews at the end of the race day WILL notice.

The smaller sized sails (spinnaker) will mean that everybody can continiously work the sheets in all conditions. This is a big plus for mixed (male-female), all-female and even any young crews. The big (all male) teams won't be able to bank on their edge in shear power to pull them though. Also the spinnaker and large hull volume will much limit the big boys weight disadvantage in the light stuff. It can well end up being really fair to all.

It is my personal opinion that this could proof a very interesting event indeed. Knowing that the optimal crew weight for the Blade F16 rather central to the make-up of US catamaran teams. This is not a boat favouring featherweights, it is too powerful for that, nor is it a "big boy" boat as it really doesn't need much muscle orf meat on the wires to make it go. The Blade F16 is really very much in the middle of the spectrum.

Past Alter Cup boat were/are :

2007 Blade F16 (bid)

2006 Nacra F18
2005 Hobie Tiger
2004 Hobie 16
2003 Bimare Javelin 2
2002 Hobie Tiger
2001 Nacra Inter 20
2000 Hobie 20
1999 Nacra 6.0


Wouter

Does the free boat come from the land of Oz full crewed by munchkins or do we have to provide the radio transmitter and servos for it ourselves?

Just curious.

The Crew comes from the Lolipop Guild!!!!

Hey Hey Hey...be nice. I'm your Alter Cup Chairman for 2007 and like the past several Alter Cup Events, it's going to be a terrific! This is a great boat and we're tickled to death to have the support from VWM. There's a mutal sense of opportuntity here as is the case with every Alter Cup. Personally, I think more than a few folks are going to be surprised at how well these F16s do handle weight on board. Regardless, everyone rotates on the identically configured boats - it's the ultimate one-design competition.

John Williams has been responsible for the Alter Cup for the 2005, 2006, and laying the ground work for 2007. I'm stepping in to help with the management of the 2007 event (so I haven't done much yet). Jamie Diamond and John Williams have done an incredible job with the past Alter Cups and I hope to be able to contribute in a similar fashion. So be nice, because I'm one of the ones that will be reviewing the peititions for open slots!

Jake,
I hate to be a stickler for details, but so far the Alter Cup Committee and the Multihull Council have not announced that the bid of Melbourne Yacht Club has been accepted for the 2007 Alter Cup. Nor has it been announced that the offer of Vector Works to supply the boats has been accepted.

If all this has been voted on and approved, you should send out a press release to all relevant media, including Catamaran Sailor, so we can publish the information. So far all we can do is assume the bids will be approved, which is not good enough.

For all I know, you may have a deadline by which all bids must be submitted and you have to wait to see if there are any competing bids.

Mary,

You're right - and I overstepped here a good deal jumping to the defense of the Alter Cup and the Blade F16. As Wouter accurately described above, a bid has been received from VWM and Melbourne. I should not have indicated that it was official (egg on face).

Jake,

Thanks for stepping up and taking over for JW.

And by the way, have I mentioned that you look marvelous lately:)

Wouter,
Can you post a picture or rendering of the Blade F16 mast section? I'm curious to learn more about the differience between what you describe as the teardrop and "true wing mast." I'd alway assumed the tear drop was a wing mast.

Thanks

Bill

Hi Mary -

When have I ever done a "press release?" I only wish I were that officious.

Here's the deal for real. First, no manufacturer ever supplies anything for free (sorry Wout). We court the boat makers, and we pay a charter fee. Thanks to the efforts of past Chairmen and volunteers, and the financial support of one major donor, the charter fee is not passed along to the competitors, making the Alter Cup the least expensive of the adult championships per sailor per day by a very wide margin. So next time you see him, thank Mr. Bill Jolley for making the Alter Cup what it is today.

To be fair, while we pay a charter fee to the manufacturer (or sometimes a specific dealer), the fee is very, very reasonable and that constitutes a financial contribution on their part. It also reflects their commitment to supporting multihull sailing. It takes a lot to woo those factory guys and dealers who subsequently have to commit to selling 11 slightly-used boats in a specific region - not always an easy task in today's market. I've been a real PITA working to make sure each "next" event would happen - ask anybody at the US factories, and see if they don't roll their eyes when you mention my name. That's another reason I'm stepping down - they're all tired of hearing from me.

Secondly, Mary, there was only one other club that was considering bidding for 2007 and they were not able to work out something with a boat maker, so they did not bid this year - I hope they do for 2008. It is the clubs that do the real work once the boat issue is sorted - I know that anyone who has hosted an Alter Cup will agree that is it NOT easier to run an event that "only" has ten boats on the water. Running any championship is difficult - the Alter Cup comes with unique challenges in format and race management.

So, while there hasn't been a press release, you can expect the Spring meeting minutes to reflect an official announcement with dates and venue-specific information. The intent is to let everyone competing in the annual ladder events (the Area Eliminations) know before their event is sailed what the Championship boat will be - this might influence what they will sail in their qualifier, and allows them to select appropriate crew and alternate crew so that their Area entry form is complete.

I suppose we have been fortunate in a weird way - bids to host the Championship are almost always solicited by the committee in charge of organizing the event. We've never had more than one bid at a time that I know of. That means we've never had to tell a club "no." I would feel pretty bad, knowing how much of a commitment it is to host one of these events, telling someone "thanks, but no thanks." That would suck. Sure, it would be nice to have clubs and manufacturers clamoring to get involved, but considering the reality of the market and sailing in general here in the US, this event has been remarkably fortunate to have found such willing and able hosts, as well as cooperative manufacturers.

Still reading? Thanks for hanging in there.

Take a look at these pictures :










In the second picture the section looks more quashed then it is in real life. This probably dependent on my screen resolution. Also I did use a very cheap (mobile phone) digital camera.

When you hold the Superwing section in your hand it feels alot thinner and more pointy in the front.

Sadly I don't have a cut off piece of a teardrop shape mast. But the following spec will give you an idea.

Both the Tiger and AHPC superwing mast are about 150 mm "long"; the superwing is 63 mm at its thickest point across the crossection while the Tiger section is just over 90 mm (= 43 % thicker). This makes quite a difference. So for a given longitudal length the wing mast is significantly thinner. The superwing ration length/thickness = 150/63 = 2.38 while the tiger = 1.67 In some way you can compare this ratio to the aspect ratio of the sails.

In addition to this difference The shape of the crossection is different. The teardrop shape masts has a front halve that closely resembles a circle. The rear part is faired into a curved triangle part leading up to the sail groove.

A wingmast has a front part that is elliptical in shape and this part is nearly 2/3rd of the whole section. The far rear end to faired towards the sail groove.

In he drawings I had difficulty to get it right but with wingmasts the point of maximum thickness is further back then with the teardrop shaped masts. I have held cut-offs of both sections in my hand and then the differences in shape and size is quite dramatic. The teardrop sections look and feel alot more bulky and crude in comparison.

In order to give the mast its minimal required stiffness in the sideways plane, ribs are added to the inside of the mast. These serve two functions, -1- the increase the sideways resistance to bending (which would be significantly less than the teardrop shape mast without the ribs). -2- to support the thin walls and prevent the mast failing under buckling.
a direct result is that the ratio between bending in the two planes can be fully engineered, and the mast section as a whole can have a smaller wallthickness leading to a significant weight reduction on the mast. A fully fitted Aluminium superwing mast weights between 3 to 4 kg (7 to 9 lbs) less then an aluminium Hobie FX-one mast of equal length.

Well known boats that use wingmast sections are : A-cats, Taipan 5.7, Taipan and Blade F16's, Capricorn F18 and the Ventilo or Bim F18HT's. The use of a true wingmast is said to be part of the succes of these designs and their rigs.

The two sections do seem to require a different approach to tuning. The wingmasts are often more flexible in the sideways plane and as such the mast rotation control together with the leech tension set on the mainsail are important. The elliptical shape of the crossection leads to these boat sailing with less mast rotation then a normal teardrop shape masts. The improved aerodynamic behaviour of the wingmast section allows a crew to forget about the proper transition from mast to sail. Sometimes the mast is strongly underrotated with respect to the draft of the mainsail and still the creation of seperation zones on the lee side of the sail (and close the mast) are very limited. It looks really funny but such a trim can actually be quite fast in strong winds. With such an underrotated mast the top section of the mast pumps with each gust, taking the head of the sail with it thus inducing temporary twist. This depowers the rig in the top like nobodies business while maintaining alot of drive low in the sail. When you are looking for power again, just let the rotation out a little more and the top powers up fully.

Sailing with the Superwing mast section is very lively. It feels like the mast section is talking to you. It responds to each trim and tuning adjustment in a clear and predictable way. You also quickly feel the range of depowering and powering-up, and this is quite a large range.

The first sailing with this mast in a heavy blow with strong gusts is something to experience. The top is bending away quite significantly during the gusts when the rotation is set to allow this. If the rotation is not set for it then the tops stayes where it is, you can tweak the bending off wind velocity like that. However the mast section itself is very resistance to abuse. Under a fully powered up spinnaker you initially fear for the mast but soon you learn that the mast can handle huge amounts of bending and abuse. Having said this I'm sure that there is a point where the mast had enough and folds; but I haven't it yet.

I truly think this superwing mast section is a joy to sail and I do my stints on Tigers and sort each year.

Does this answer your question ?

Wouter

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Wouter,

I would be interested as well about a true wing mast cross section. I too always assumed the tear drop shape was a symmetrical airfoil. I have seen them on competition aerobatic airplanes. The Pitts S2B and the Christian Eagle were the last ones I saw up close (I know I am a few years behind with the planes, but I haven't seen an Extra up close yet).

Thanks for clearing that up John - I'll take my lashings later.

Jake

How can I be nice when I can't squeeze under the boom of those things? When I say big, I'm talking y-plane dimensions, not x/z

NP, Jake - you missed that conference call so you couldn't have known. As for lashes, you get a whole year for that! Just kidding. Not really.

Hey mate,

Maybe you should take out some time and get your facts (statements) right.

You call yourself MauganH17 as in H17 = Hobie 17 and you think that you can't fit under the boom of an F16 ? I nearly fell on the floor when I read that one as I've never sailed with a boom setup as low as on the good old H17 ! I had to slither underneath the H17 boom and still have my bouyancy aid hang up on the boom. In the end I just went from one side of the boat to the other by passing in front of the mast.





I really wonder wether you have ever sampled the height under the F16 boom seriously.

There is 500 mm there = close to 2 feet clearing. F18 booms are lower; H16 booms are way lower.

I knew this little bit of Alter Cup news would leave a certain portion of the sailors REALLY sour but you are truly surpassing the wildest of my expectation.




Ohh, and I just thought you were describing the magnitude of your prejudice !

Wouter

Theres a couple good reasons why I don't sail the H17 anymore, and this was one of them Vouter.



Been on a taipan 4.9 Very uncomfortable for me. Sorry its just the god's honest troof. I don't sail F18's and have never ever in my whole life stepped foot on a H16.



My femur bone alone is more than 2 feet. Let me say that I have a hard time getting under the boom of the I20, Trey can attest to that, so can anyone thats been on the water and heard me cursing from miles away when I hit my head or get snagged on something. The whole reason I moved to catamarans in the first place (well aside from the adrenalin rush of the speed) was because of the total lack of any kind of space on dinghies. You ever tried racing a 420? I did, and my shins hated me. I like big boats (relatively speaking) and big wide open trampolines with plenty of room to organize the spaghetti and to stretch out when stuck on a windless day in the middle of the summer.



No, its just the size of my disdain for your continued efforts to promote the F16 as the panacea of all catamarans for all sailors. If you truly realized how annoying it is to read every single "What boat should I get?" thread only to find its been perverted into another F16 group orgy, you'd cease and desist yesterday.

Are we talking about the Taipan 4.9 ? Was I writing about the Taipan 4.9 ?

No, we are talking about F16's and the Blade F16 in specific. Indeed, the Taipan 4.9 boom is low, is was one of the first things that got modified in the F16 setups. Take a look at the picture of the Blade again, how low is that boom ?






Inter-20 boom is about the same height as the F18 booms. If you have trouble on the I-20 as well then what boat type is good for you ? Stilleto 26 ? maybe Orange 2 ?

Don't make this is pissing fest on the Blade F16. We didn't hear you moan and groan when the Nacra F18 (or Inter-20) was selected for the 2006 (2001) Alter Cup.





Yep. However the last dinghy I sailed was the 49-er. Lots of boom clearence there.





And so you are taking it out on the Alter Cup guys/volunteers and the factory who is willing to take the economic risk and provide the boats for the 2007 Alter Cup. Not to mention the fact that you are pissing on the chips of the smaller crews who in the last 8 years graciously contented with 7 AC events being sailed on boats favouring big crews.

But despite this lack of taste you are not in the least bit ashamed to dispense with all kinds of sour comments.

At least there are some positive cat sailors around who actually make things like the Alter Cup happen every year, who build new classes and who advance the sport of beach catamaran sailing. There wouldn't even be a Inter-20 or F18 class if it wasn't for annoying little persons like myself. We'd all still be sailing Hobie and Prindle 16 and I'm sure you would have loved that.

So do yourself a favour and stop acting like a disrespecting grumpy old fool.

Wouter

Oh boy, this is going to be fun. Trolling you is so incredible easy Wouter.



The gooseneck looks pretty damn low to me. Let out enough mainsheet on any boom and you can get under it even if you were the Jolly Green Giant. Not only that, but the tramp space is so small, there's no way in hell we could both go under the boom at once without either my head getting shoved into the mast, or me pushing the skipper off the back of the boat. Since Trey's a bit heavier than myself, I'm going to go ahead and say he'd win that, and I'd get a black eye.



I "wasn't around" when the boat was chosen for those years. I wouldn't have put up resistance to those boats however. Why? Because they don't have an annoying bastard of a representative that infects every single corner of cyberspace with his crap about the next coming of the catamaran messiah in fiberglass form.



You know where I can find a trailer for Orange 2? Way to be practical.

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And so you are taking it out on the Alter Cup guys/volunteers and the factory who is willing to take the economic risk and provide the boats for the 2007 Alter Cup.

I'd like to know where exactly I said, "what morons these people are!?!?" I poked fun in jest at a boat design that I don't like. I said nothing about the people involved, or the event. I realize that English isn't your first language, but please.

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Not to mention the fact that you are pissing on the chips of the smaller crews who in the last 8 years graciously contented with 7 AC events being sailed on boats favouring big crews.

Since when has F18 favored the heavier crews?

I'm sure you'll pull some numbers straight out of your nether-regions to prove that the combined crew weight of 323.348813lbs in average winds ~12.66667 knots is a favorable situation for an F18. Excuse me if my significant digits are off. I'm not an engineer, I'm only a ...

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disrespecting grumpy old fool

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At least there are some positive cat sailors around who actually make things like the Alter Cup happen every year, who build new classes and who advance the sport of beach catamaran sailing. There wouldn't even be a Inter-20 or F18 class if it wasn't for annoying little persons like myself. We'd all still be sailing Hobie and Prindle 16 and I'm sure you would have loved that.

Well at least we can find common ground in something, although you really take

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annoying little persons like myself

to whole new levels.

To sum up my feelings on the whole thing,

1) My comment about the munchkins was in jest, and I've been informed that it was pretty funny to more than just one person.

2) I have no issues with anyone on the Alter Cup. In fact, I respect all the named members of the organization as people and sailors. I only respectfully disagree with the selection of the boat used. However as someone who is (obviously) probably not going to participate, they should take my comments about as seriously as I take yours Wouter.

3) My only issues with the boat are its size, and its overbearing, overzealous, shameless self-promotion at the hands of a particular representative.

Now, now boys!

I don't suppose there's ANY chance at all that you two could just kiss and make up?

I'll take that as a racing certainty and suggest that you simply agree to disagree (entertaining though it most certainly has been thus far) Neither of you are likely to back down and all this airing of dirty linen is doing multihull sailing in general no service at all.

Just my two pence worth....

Whow, you guys really can type fast on your keyboards. Here I was leaving the forum to fix some lamb chops for dinner, and you have a slug feast in the meantime..

Maughan, what has the length of your femur to do with getting under the boom. If you are down on your knees, you are too slow. You pass under the boom on your hands and feet, just like you do the barbed wire obstacle in the infantry training course.. My 195cm regular crew manages on the Tornado, and he is not especially agile.

Rolf:

Please, do me a favor and whenever I address wouter, take my comments as tongue-in-cheek

Just trying to be objective and get some useful info out of this

Anchorman: "I DON'T KNOW WHAT WE'RE YELLING ABOUT!......"LOUD NOISES!"
If you haven't seen Anchorman, quit work and go rent it. Now.

Personally, I think they should sail the Alter Cup on Hobie Bravos one year -- and not let anybody know what boat it is until a month before the event (just let people know ahead of time whether it is a singlehander or a doublehander). And they could do it another year on the Windrider trimaran.

The purpose of the US Sailing Multihull Championship is to determine who is the best sailor -- the boat used is irrelevant -- and the less the participants know about sailing and racing a particular boat, the better.

Hey Tad,

"F16, the other Mac26"
or
"Wouter, the other Mighetto"

The F16 does not deserve that dubious distinction.

And as much hell as I like to give Wouter, nobody can live up to the level of infamy other than that of HWSNBN himself.

I'll have to disagree with Mary though on this one. I think the boat should be named well in advance so we blowhards can talk about stuff on the internet that we are really not all that qualified to talk about

Actually, I think giving the teams the opportunity to practice on the decided platform is a good idea, and would lead to better racing.

Although I'm not sure how many alter cup teams go out and buy the latest platform for practicing, so I could be full of snot anyways.

Actually, if it were not the "Multihull" championship, I think it should be done on Optimist dinghies.

Hmmmmm, i've got some old Hobie 18 crossbeams. Mary, round up 2 optis and we'll have ourselves a cat. We can even put a sunfish rig on it---->"Hobiefishamaran".

Sounds fishy..

Would probably be smelly too...

and ugly

Then maybe it would be a two-person boat.

The Aquacat would be another good one for the Alter Cup. I have a feeling that nobody has ever asked the manufacturer.

Tad, CraigO,

Please guys, can we keep Catsailor Mighetto and Mac26-free?

rumored 2008 bid

DUDE SHHHH.

He Who Shall Not Be Named (HWSNBN) googles his name and then shows up where-ever mentioned. Why do you think we call him HWSNBN?

Do you stand on it or sit on it????

Sorry I broke the Code of HWSNBN. I just think Dike Boy is about 1 degree removed from HWSNBN. If he starts talking about Modes, then we know he's related to HWSNBN!!!!

How about we race bathtubs?

Maugan, like the boat or not you would be doing yourself a dis-service by not wanting to enter the event due to the choice of boat.
If you and Trey are really built to be a cross between basketball players and football players, I`d suggest you split up for the event and both find small crew - advantage is they usually come in female form .
That way you both get to sail anyway, if as a combined crew you feel you might not fit under the boom or be too heavy to be competitive.
We sail smaller boats than F16 (no, really !) Big boats cost big money in SA. Some of our skippers are 90-108kg, and sail with their wives or kids. Have a look at the boom height on our boats, you will think the Blade has HUGE space after that.

I think I liked it better when the Alter Cup boat was kept secret until a month or two before the Championship -- or at least not announced until AFTER the qualifying events were over.

But there are pros and cons both ways.

eh, its not like we have to worry about qualifying for the event

There are sailors in our area much better than me that deserve to go before I do

Hi Mary -

I'd like to hear your "pros" on not announcing the boat until right before the event - just curious.

It should be noted that the boat was never "kept" secret, AFAIK - I think it was frequently the last minute before the committee was able to pin down a deal. I think there was a lot of stress in organizing the event when a boat and venue weren't pinned down. Gordie Isco or Jamie Diamond might be able to speak better to that - I'd say Steve Leo, too, but I don't think he visits here anymore. maybe I'll send him an e-mail.

To my mind, the pros of announcing before the ladder events:

1. Gives the "team" concept a real chance.
2. Allows someone who takes it really seriously to beg, borrow or steal the equipment if they want.
3. Draws out some sailors who might not come otherwise - folks who belong to the class selected, or that have an interest in getting a week-long test drive.

Honestly, if the way its done now isn't "better," then we should look at changing it.

hey if the F16 is too small.. why not ask the committe to look for either a C class or D class boat...
ARC 30 is almost a D.. Still undersized by 5 foot.. However two up would be interesting...
There also must be molds for a C around.. If not pulling a mold from one of the Cs would be easy...

What the crews need to make their own boat before the series!!.. molds supplied and materials.. The crews do the rest!!,... Now that would be a challenge!!

And flippin' expensive.

uhh... isn't there already a regatta that does that?

That is a good looking Mosquito Steve !

On the topic of trampoline space. I once had a Tiger bitching about my kiddies boat. How it would be good for featherweights and that its tramp was far too small for himself and his crew; not to mention that the bows were to short on a 16 foot boat. After a while I had enough and parked my boat next to his Tiger and made him check out the length of the bow and the position of the beams.

He couldn't believe that the bow section of my Taipan F16 was ONLY 50 mm (2 inches) shorter then his Tigers. Then when he checked out the space between the beams he couldn't believe that there was onlu 150 mm = 6 inches difference there. The only part that was noticeably different was the length of the sterns. The Tiger just had alot more of that, but no crew is sitting on the part of hull anyway, tillers are in the way there you see ! I see in the picture of your mosquito that it has much the same setup

With the 5 mtr length of the F16 hull the 2.5 mtr. width makes the boat looks wider than an Tiger even if in reality it isn't. The more slender hulls reinforce this aspect. So in area my F16 trampoline/deck space is 90 % of that of the Tiger; nearly all of that negligable difference is the result of the F16 being 4 inches narrow than the Tiger. The Blade F16 has more space between the beams and therefor closely resembles the deck space as found on the Hobie Tiger.

What some people forget is that while the Blade kept all the good stuff of the Taipan design, it also improved on all the less-then-excellent stuff. Boom height, boat width, jib sheeting system and trampoline space were all improved based on the Taipan 4.9 experiences. Actually removing the jib fearleads from the middle of the trampoline to the mainbeam made a huge difference in the sensation of space on the boat. Much more than the increases in width and space between the beams.

Several taller guys (6 foot 2 and over, 80 kg and over = 180 lbs) test sailed the blade F16 together and said that the trampoline space was excellent, they never felt that the space was too small during tacks, gibes, hoists and take-down. All who knew the standard Taipan mentioned the real difference in sensation of space.

Wouter

Trey, don't be giving the crack pots any more silly ideas. There is one in Austin who built something like the craft you describe. 2 hobie 16 hulls strung either side of what looked like a rowing boat, with a sun fish rig on each H16 hull, cross connected at the top by a scaffold pole with ladder access from the row boat.

I would hate for him to knock out another 10 of these and end up as the Alter cup boat supplier...

Steve,
Could you post a close up picture that shows the boom connection/downhaul, and mast rotator?

In your picture it looks like the downhaul is 4 to 1? Is that enough? And does the mast rotator connect to the front beam? I've been working on the whole downhaul/mast rotator placement on my A cat and I'm interested in seeing new ideas.

What do you think about the rotator not having a relationship to the boom? The reason I ask, is that if the rotation is connected to something other than the boom, when you adjust the travelor, you change the rotation.

If the rotation is connected to the boom, the relationship is fixed to the boom and traveling in or out doesnt impact the rotation.

Boom mounted rotation seems to be the most popular, the only other exception I've seen is on a Flyer A cat. Its connected to the tramp. See attached.

Wouter any comments?

And is that a beam in the middle of the tramp running aft? If so that must be a real knee basher.

Bill

John, I thought it was policy to not announce the Alter Cup boat until after the qualifiers were over, but you may be right that it was out of necessity rather than intent.

1. I don’t know what you mean by “team” concept, but as to your other two points, I just look at them from the flip side.

2. If they don’t know far in advance what type of boat the event is going to be on, they don’t have to worry about begging, borrowing, buying or stealing a boat to practice on, because nobody else will know, either.

3. Also keeps people away from the qualifiers who might come otherwise. So that is probably a wash.

HOWEVER, because the number of people sailing in the Alter Cup has been doubled, and because there is a pretty major division between the spinnaker and non-spinnaker folks, I think the way you are doing it now is probably the ONLY practical way – announcing the boat in advance of the qualifiers.

If the Alter Cup boat is going to be a spinnaker boat, you are probably going to get mostly spinnaker people at the qualifiers and in the finals. If it is a non-spinnaker boat, you would get both spinnaker and non-spinnaker people at the qualifiers and finals (and also by petition), which would be more inclusive of our whole beach-cat community.

It is too bad that the boat chosen for the Alter Cup has to influence whether or not people even want to sail in the event. Maybe it would be better to have it always sailed on the same type of boat, something generic enough, main and jib, that everybody can handle it. That would certainly level the playing field and make it more like what is done for the US Sailing monohull championships. You don’t see their championships being sailed one year on a Rebel and the next year on a 49er.

IMHO, the Alter Cup needs a permanent, common-denominator boat.

Meanwhile, this early announcement about the 2007 boat is going to be great publicity for the Blade F16 and for Vector Works Marine.

really? Dont think so..

Not where only the skipper and crew does the building....
The LAC are built by teams...

New boats cost big money not big boats really what is to be gained by lamenting over who should be in the Holier than thou Alter Cup if this is the reaction then ditch the race because the publicity is negative. Mystere 6.0 1993 Alter Cup big yip . This crap is so that each builder gets there 15 minutes of fame..... Weeeee! !Most of these boats look the same anyway.....
We sail smaller boats than F16 (no, really !) Big boats cost big money in SA. Some of our skippers are 90-108kg, and sail with their wives or kids. Have a look at the boom height on our boats, you will think the Blade has HUGE space after that.

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You guys are starting to drown the whole point of the Alter Cup with all this boat talk and are totally missing the point. You're bringing me down. Sure, the boat is part of the pie...but it's not the largest or most important piece. The experience of participating in an Alter Cup is a memorable one - just getting there is a very serious accomplishment.

How many of you finish a regatta weekend and think about how you would reconfigure or change something on your boat for the next regatta? Or perhaps you blame a tired old sail for not finishing as well as you would like. Sound familiar? I did it for years. A few times, when I made a monumental leap and purchased a set of sails, I found that I really didn't gain as much performance that I thought I would. That recognition alone set off a chain reaction of investigation and discovery and I would find some really obvious stupid stuff I was doing all the while. I couldn't see it because I had the 'old tired sails' in my mind. Enough of that...clear the chalk board. Take away the "my sail cut is different", "my gear older", "my mast has a funny bend", "my boards really need to be faired", "my hull bottoms are really in bad shape", "my diamond wires were too tight", my....{I think you get the point}.

Now, go out on the water with all of that out of your mind because you are piloting one of ten identical boats. They're brand new, with the same cut on the sails, the same foils, the same hulls, etc. All of the sudden, you find yourself on the starting line with only a few thoughts in your mind; the start sequence, your strategy, the water, the wind, and how you are going to get in front of 9 of the best sailing teams this country has to offer. Forget the boat, forget the boom, forget who promotes what class or what nutty freakin prejudice you have against one assembly of fiberglass, aluminum, and plastic over another - you have the same things to deal with as everyone else on the water. That's what the Alter Cup is about. It's as pure as it gets.

I think this choice between boom-sheeted rotation limiter and trampoline-sheeted rotation limiter comes down fully on wether you mostly sail with a spinnaker sail or not.

Personally I have the trampoline-sheeted system on my own boat (F16). I sail nearly always with a spinnaker, both 2-up and 1-up. I'm finding that mastrotation control on a spi boat is pretty much on or off. Before the racing starts you'll fine tune the optimal upwind rotation and lock it there in place. Several crew use a seperate cleat for this; to lock this setting into place. Then after rounding the upwind mark you fully free the rotation only to fully pull the rotation in to the preset optimal trim for upwind when rounding C-mark. During the spi leg you never touch the rotation control and during the upwind leg you hardly ever adjust it. And you do then nearly always you increase rotation in order to get more power. However my experience is that even a suboptimal trim upwind can be acceptable unless the leg is really long. The reaching legs are often short anyway and mostly you are busy preparing for the hoist anyway. We (I) as good as always keep our upwind rotation on these small legs. In light winds you can get away with keeping your upwind rotation trim when sailing with a spi. Mostly because the spi induced such a big skewing to the flow experienced by the spi. After all on a spi boat you never travel out more than 1 foot from the centre of the rear beam. This means that the angle between the boom and mast stays pretty much the same anyway even when using a rotation limiter that is sheeted relative to the trampoline.

With the above explained usage, it is far cheaper to sheet the rotation of the trampoline and it allows a very simple setup that can be adjusted from the trapeze. An extra advantage is that you don't have a rotation limiter poking your eyes out when you are near the mast hoisting or doucing the spi. I also clears up the boom and generally looks tidier.

On my Taipan I have an extra advantage with respect to the trampoline bases rotation limiter in comparison to the boom-sheeted version. As explained in my other post, the superwing wingmast is more flexible in the sideways plane. This means that at a certain combination of rotation angle and leech tension angle the top of my mast will fall away to lee taking the whole head of my mainsail with it. The effect is that the top of the rig is quickly and fully depowered. I'm partly using this behaviour to control my boats heeling during gusts and while under spinnaker. I can influence the magnitude of this behaviour by adjusting my mast rotation control. It works like this. Under spinnaker in trying conditions, many wind with big wind speed fluctuation, I let out my mast rotation but not all the way as I would in really strong winds. I lock my rotation in place in such a position that when I sheet my maintraveller near to the centre of the rearbeam the rig is fully powered up with exactly the right amount of draft and twist in my mainsail. My mast rake it set up so that in this trim the boat is well balanced, with only a slight leehelm. I then head up to get the boat fully powered up and my crew works continiously to keep the spi always at maximum drive. When a large gusts hits us my crew keeps the spi drive at maximum while I do two actions simultaniously. I mildly steer down and I let out my main traveller. Both proportionally to the magnitude of the gust. The effect is that by letting the traveller out I

-1- reduce the angle of attack of my mainsail
-2- reduce the draft of my mainsail as my mast stays in the same position with boom moving more in line with this mast.
-3- the leech tension is moved relatively to the sideways plane of my mast resulting in the top falling away to lee depowering the top of my mainsail and increasing the twist profile of my leech in addition to the first initial and automatic response of my squaretop.

The net result is that I increase lee helm on my boat which really helps bear the boat down. I need noticeably less rudder angle (= less drag) to quickly turn the boat. It's prevent the boat from heeling, the bows are pressed down less and the boat seems to accellerate rather then heel. Also we have to bear down less, meaning that when the gust falls away we can maintain maximum power by pulling in the main traveller, bring back in the masttop and squaretop and increase draft, while only having the gentle head up a small amount to get back at the new optimal course which was the same as before the gust.

I found this mechanism to be so powerful and the Taipan mast to be rather resistant to failing under a spinnaker that I also use this trick to keep flying the spi on the last leg to the finish line. By letting out the main traveller I can often maintain a slightly higher course then the other spinnaker boats without slowing down or heeling to much. That is in relatively strong winds. In light winds everybody can do it as heeling is not a problem then.

This whole behaviour is not really important on a spinnakerless boat. Here your mainsail trim is alot more sensitive, their is no jib or spinnaker to just force flow over the mainsail even if the trim is slightly off. So in the case of A-cats and sorts I feel that a boom-sheeted rotation control is advantagious. Also because you guys let out a lot more main traveller then the spi boats do. Circular traveller tracks on a spi boat are just a dumb idea. You really don't need it as you never travel out more than 1 foot anyway. That is in a permanent way, you do of course temporarily to depower the rig in a gust but a circular track (maintaining draft and angle of attack) will then do the opposite of what you want.

Actually the addition of the spinnaker has allowed designers to simplify certain aspects on the boats. Mast rotation and traveller tracks are one of those things. The selftacking jib system is also alot more attractive on spi boats as the jib hardly needs to be travelled out when flying a spi. When push comes to shoove, you can even maintain your complete upwind trim of both the mainsail and jib on the downwind legs under spinnaker and not loose much ground at all. In crowded fleets this is a huge benefit. But I'm getting of track.

Main point is that on a spi boat I prefer the simple, out of the way, cheap trampoline-sheeted rotation control. On a spi-less boat the rotation control sheeted of the boom is advanagious.

Wouter

After seeing Jake compete in an Alter Cup, I knew he would be a good stewart for the Championship and an advocate for sportsmanship.

Hi Bill, this pic is the best I could find on the downhaul fixing method that most of us use (we are allowed to do anything with most of our rigging, I think the Mosquito is probably one of the most open one-design boats around - the rule on rudders allow you to build or buy any rudders of any shape or length that you think will work. Generally it isn`t the rudders that win the race. In fact these open-minded class rules disprove many of the popular myths in sailing, our boats are all set up differently to a certain extent, yet the fast guys always win, and the lightest boat isn`t always the fastest (and it`s mine ) Even our hull shapes differ from one another within the building tolerances to a small degree. Of course all the epoxy boats are the same, but the woodies differ a bit.
We attach the bottom triple-block of the downhaul directly to the gooseneck with a shackle, simple and easy. My Gooseneck fitting is a little bent after 5 years of use, and the loads on our boats are quite small as you can see 5:1 or 6:1 downhaul is good enough.
These pics are both of Kevin`s boats, our National champ. the black & white boat is an epoxy, his 2nd boat, and he has streamlined all his systems to the minimum. His first boat had so much string on it the crew took up knitting.
Sorry no pic of mast rotator as he hadn`t fitted it when pics were taken. We connect to boom and seldom adjust unless the wind is very inconsistent, and I seldom let it off downwind with the kite up.

Forgot to mention, I use 8:1 downhaul (not as heavy as Kevin ).

Totally agree with Jake, the boat shouldn`t make a difference, the event is what matters, in fact count yourselves lucky that such an event happens for you guys. I think those who do sail will find out just how well the chosen boat handles both heavy and lightweight crews. If you practice and qualify for the event on ANY spinnaker boat you will probably make the switch to the Blade quite quickly, and the advantage of having chosen this boat is that there will be very few sailors with a true advantage since it is a very new class, if the Hobie 16 or Inter 20 were chosen you`d expect the National champ in those classes to have the edge, there are still only a few Blade owners and they have not mastered their boats in a way that will make them far faster than the others.
Just an unbiased outside opinion - I`d love to sail an I-20, Blade F16, Capricorn, F18HT and an Eagle 20 (maybe a Volvo Extreme 40 too ), and would also happily crew on a Hobie 16 in a Hobie-only event, but only with one skipper.

"And is that a beam in the middle of the tramp running aft? If so that must be a real knee basher.

Bill "

It is a centrepole running from front to rear beam.
If you bash your knees on it you`re taking too long to tack .
Actually the trampoline should be quite tightly stretched across it so you don`t really notice it. It`s there to stabilise the front and rear beams, they are small box-section aluminium. With the addition of the spinnaker pole it helps to support the loads the pole transfers to the front beam as well. Some of the Auzzies have removed them with no ill-effect, but they sail solo and haven`t added kites, I would put the centrepole back if adding the kite if I were them.