Boat/racing Insurance

HCANA requires a minimum $100,000 liabilty coverage to race.

Some homeowners policies allow riders for boats. Trailers may be in seperate from boats and/or a rider to an auto policy.

A $300,000 liability only policy would be roughly $45 per year. Of course then insure your boat and gear for your "replacement" value.

US Sailing one design policy info here
http://www.ussailing.org/odcc/boat%5Finsurance.htm

Mary,


I don't understand how that could happen either, but I STRONGLY beleive we all should provide proof of insurance at the registration table.

Okay, here's more of my post from another thread:

At one major event this year we had to show proof of liability insurance. They also sold policies at the event - we bought one as I had forgotten our paperwork. It was a simple form and covered us for just that event.

But who is "they"?

We had to demonstrate (i.e. paperwork) that we had at least $SOMANYDOLLARS policy on our boat at the NAF18 North Americans. The Tybee 500 also requires you to demonstrate an insurance policy.

The insurance company will readily provide you a document showing what your coverage and limitations are...usually a one page sheet. With my company I can print it online. My insurance is a replacement policy (i.e. if I can't find a 2004 Nacra F18, they will cover the expense for the next newest boat I can find or new). It also covers me if I were to charter another boat for an event. They cover it while trailering and cover me if I foul someone resulting in damage or personal harm up to a limit. They also reduce my $500 deductable by 25% (to $0 in four years) each year that I don't have a claim. All for $181 a year.

You are talking about liability insurance, I assume. So you present paperwork on your boat specifically or via your homeowners insurance?

Ya gotta talk to me as though I don't know nothin', because I really DO know nothin' about all this.

And even if you have a homeowners policy, you have to contact your insurance company and put a rider on there for all the sailboats you have?

I have been sailing for 50 years and know nothing about how to do all this.

Which confirms, from a previous discussion somewhere, that the liability portion is relatively small.

Mary, knowing that a liabilty only policy(for when we damage someone elses property or injure another person) is roughly $45/$300K, in Jakes case most of that $181 is covering the replacement or repair cost of his 2004 boat, trailer and gear.

This says nothing about your generic beach cat only those that made the list. The one design list,the Uber list!

Gee your insurance in the US sounds all like "a black art" that only the "initiated into the cult" understand. Here in OZ our marine coverage works exactly the same as our car insurance (some insurance companies marine policies are even on car paperwork) We insure the cat for a "new replacement" value and that covers all/ any damage to our boat, plus damage to any other craft if we are in the wrong, (the age of the boat is not a consideration) as well as having a 5 million dollar third party cover in the case of us causing injury or death to any third party(s). Also by being a financial member of a sailing club we also have an automatic cover by Yachting Australia that covers our personal injury or others injured by us. Without those covers no one can sail/race in any officially "organised“ sailing event. It takes any financial concern away from sailing/racing anywhere in Australia

Progressive knew what a Nacra F18 was a year and a half ago (it had not been around in the U.S. very long). State Farm knew what a Nacra 6.0NA is. Even if it's an off beat boat, they'll be glad to find something similar and use it to set up you a policy. It's inexpensive and very worthwhile.

Darryl,

It's not really any more complicated. What's confusing is that most home insurance policies cover the home owner for being a dumb butt away from the home...i.e. you get a certain amount of liability insurance - some policies even specify a limitation on the boat. My homeowner's policy has a blurb about covering so much liability on a non-powered boat under 21' as an added bonus but it stopped by indicating that it would not cover power boats. If you contact an insurance company to purchase insurance for your boat, it's very much like setting up a policy for a car (and yes, using the same forms!) .

I figured you had the same policy as me, Jake. Progressive is the only one I know with that sliding deductible option.

Homeowner's policies do, on occasion, provide limited liability coverage while you operate a boat, but you (the policy holder) need to check two things:
- does it provide coverage while you are racing?
- does it provide coverage for boats over 16 feet?

Most homeowner's policies don't cover boats over a certain length as a means of "encouraging" you to buy a separate policy designed for boats (power and sail).

Other things to check on:
- replacement cost vs. actual cash value (ACV values are depreciated)
- navigation areas (those that sail in Canada and enter the Tybee may want to make sure they're covered in US east coastal waters)

And yes, Progressive knows what an F-18 is, but my agent (4 years ago) wanted to know where the "galley" was on my N20. So, be prepared to provide a clear description of your boat and what you intend to do with it.

Not to seem like I'm playing favorites, but State Farm, Boat US, US Sail, Atlas, Geiko, and other companies offer boat coverage. I just ended up with Progressive.

Some homeowners policies cover boats, some auto policies cover trailers or boat and trailer while in tow. Both having loopholes or exceptions. A policy specific to a boat obviously best. Ours (US) being such a litegious society, when you mention racing it can, in some cases (carriers/agents) open up even more "black holes".
We are only discussing boat coverage. Want to get some different views of "what is required", start talking about insurance for clubs/fleets and hosting regattas, and who is covered and not!

(old work mode on)

It will break down into a collection of seperate covers (coverages as per US speak)

1, My boat is covered on my motor policy while being towed by the car.
2, It's covered by household (and marine policy) while on the trailer at home or the sailing club.
3, It's covered by the standard risks on my marine while tied to the ground at the sailing club.
4, It's covered by standard marine while not racing.
5, It's covered by additional cover for racing.
6, It also carries a 2m GBP 3rd party cover.
7, It's covered for 30 days racing risks in mainland EU as a standard extra on the racing risks cover.
8, Racing risks cover is for up to 10 miles off shore - well worth checking how far


You just have to make sure you have all the bits in place that you want or need.

points 2-8 build a risk profile, value of boat (plus other bits) go into a calc and out pops a premium.

(work mode off)

(I worked for an Insurance package Software house a while ago )

This thread is very important and good. I think everyone should use this as an opportunity to double check on their coverage (I know I will after x-mas- I would hate to take out an ARC 22 or a brand new f-18 only to discover the ins company is going to play ignorant). I am somewhat jaded when it comes to situations like this because when they want to try to get out of paying- they WILL find a way! In the end it is a "big company screws stupid consumer" situation.

Mary: As Jake said, we have been required to have insurance for the Major events. They don't always ask to see the Policy, but at NAF 18's they took our Policy #, checked the coverage limits. We were told in advance we would not be allowed to race without it. They meant it.

We write it into the Race Registration for our local events, like they do at Spring Fever, and signing the registration form is also acknowledging that you have insurance and agree to be financially liable for damage caused. We do not check policies, however. One would wonder if the Sail Club could be held liable for damages by a competitor for that should someone turn out to have lied on the registration form. It is a litigious world. If it came down to the good graces of a sailing club or $15000 damages to my racing cat, I know which choice I'd make.

I posted this from the other Thread, too, seemed to belong here better.

NO, Mike: [color:"red"] Was State Farm that wouldn't pay. And you are Right, THEY ARE OBVIOUSLY CHEAP!![/color] [color:"brown"] Think they are expecially cheap beacause they refused when I asked for my premiums back since they did not provide the coverage I had contracted for. I had discussed my needs specifically with my agent at length when I purchased coverage [/color]
I had never filed a boating claim through them before, I actually did my I-20 insurance through them because so many sailors had good reports from them. Changed to Boat US afterwards. Hopefully they would respond differently if I were to file a claim. The people at Boat US were knowledgable about sailboat racing, and cooperative, unlike Jake's experience.
(Of Course, State Farm was pretty nice too, until I asked them to pay off on my policy)

Damage, Insurance and the NOR … or .. “what the hell you just signed when you registered”!

When you register for a regatta, you agree to abide by the ISAF Sailing rules AND the prescriptions of your National Authority as well as the NOR and any amendments. Usually you agree to this and the more or less useless waiver/warning of your right to sue the RC, club, volunteers etc etc as part of registration. ( Bottom line…your club had best be incorporated and have regatta liability insurance for the water and the beach… read KEG!).

So, You agree to abide by the ISAF racing rules and, in the USA , you agree to the US Sailing rules called Prescriptions.

For example... the NOR for the 2006 OCR waive ALL US Sailing prescriptions for the ISAF grade 3 International event except for a few... one of them pertains to damage and its in the NOR that you agree to follow when you register for the event.

US SAILING PRESCRIPTIONS THAT APPLY:
23.1. Rule 68 DAMAGES – US Sailing prescribes that:
a. A boat that retires from a race of accepts a penalty does not, by that action alone, admit
liability for damages.
b. A protest committee shall find facts and make decisions only in compliance with the rules.
No protest committee shall adjudicate any claim for damages. Such a claim is subject to
the jurisdiction of the courts.
c. A basic purpose of the rules is to prevent contact between boats. By participating in an
event governed by the rules a boat agrees that responsibility for damages arising from any
breach of the rules shall be based on fault as determined by application of the rules , and
that she shall not be governed by the legal doctrine

So what does this mean?... In my opinion, If you loose the protest ... you have already agreed to pay for the other guy's damage as well as your own! That’s what part c. above means!

So.. you ALSO agreed to the following rule in the NOR.

21. INSURANCE: Each participating boat shall be insured with valid third-party liability insurance with a minimum cover of US$300,000 per occurrence or the equivalent.

Now you have agreed to be responsible ... how you come up with the cash is another matter entirely. You must… no options here… have 300K liability insurance. Your insurance provider will follow the international rules of the road and make their judgment on liability and what they will pay on this basis. They use the protest committee much like a police report (that's why your car insurance carrier TELLS you to NOT ADMIT ANYTHING... just get names of witness's that support your story AND if you are in the right… get a police report to support your story otherwise… decline to answer). Failure to keep a proper lookout and avoid a collision is a big rule and your starboard tacker or leeward boat usually has some responsibility to avoid the collision. So... they won't pay in full for both your damage and the other guy's damage.

What you really are buying with your insurance coverage is liability for a huge medical expense due to injury…. The boat is cheap! I don’t know of ANY coverage that honors the racing rules of sailing and the protest committee judgment.

Sounds like they claimed that your tiller broke and contributed or caused the collision since you could not avoid the collision. So, this was an act of god and you were not liable so the other guy has to pay for his own damage. (you have insurance on your boat so they will pay that off minus your deductible) Because you agreed to sail under the rules and the US Sailing prescriptions.... you have to pay up for the other guy out of pocket.

Now, if you don't pay up... then the guy you hit can file with US Sailing and have you banned from competition for breach of the sportsmanship rules because you violated your agreement to pay for damages when you registered for the race.

So, If you choose to NOT have the 300K in liability insurance and you sign the registration form and go racing and nothing bad happens… THEN WHAT… . You can and SHOULD BE tossed from the event for this WILLFUL misconduct and unsportsmanlike behavior… a clear violation of the rules. The outcome will be that you are banned from participating in all racing governed by US Sailing. Oh… and US Sailing can sanction a club for ALLOWING you to continue to race once you are banned and the club is notified that you are on the $%^*&% list.

Same kind of thing would occur on the beach. If your neighbor fails to secure his boat with sufficient ground anchors and the windstorm blows it over and damages your boat... Your insurance company will charge your own insurance to fix your boat… after you pay for the deductable... its an act of god and you paid for that coverage. Now, You can make a claim against his insurance company and they will disclaim it. . its an act of god that his boat blew over and damaged your boat. You, of course will hold the idiot next to you completely responsible for what you believes was his screw up in not anchoring his boat. So... you can claim negligence on his part... but now you have to prove that he was negligent in not anchoring the boat down. This is a matter of opinion whether he was negligent or not.. Obviously he believes he is NOT negligent ... So, now it comes down to what the contract reads for the property on which the boats were stored. If you can't get it resolved nicely then this will send you to small claims court ... I guess you can sue him and his insurance company but, I don't know if his insurance company will have to defend him or be financially responsible for his negligence which you are trying to prove. I think you are only able to sue him for negligence that caused your loss and he can sue his insurance company for failing to defend him. Best you can do is win a judgment against him and hope to collect. If he won't pay... you have to get a sheriff to enforce the judgment. (you probably quit sailing altogether after all of this BS!)

Another example, marina's are rewriting their policies in the contract you sign to make it explicit and hold you, the slip renter, liable for damage caused by your boat in a storm to their property. Same principle. (hey... you were supposed to take all precautions to secure your boat by removing it from the marina! … How… well that’s your problem… not theirs … best make sure that you are covered for this when you purchase your boat insurance)

(If Katrina taught us anything… it should be … read the damn policy)

Bottom line: … Sail at an event that requires insurance without it and after you signed the form… then you SHOULD BE BANNED by US Sailiing, Your Regional sailing authority and your club for willful unsportsmanlike behavior!

Fail to pay for damage that you cause from a rule violation … and you SHOULD BE BANNED for unsportsmanlike behavior by the same groups. Sailing ain’t NASCAR… If you take out somebody on the racecourse in the act of racing …. You are not required to pay for their car… Now… take somebody out because you want to screw them over and NASCAR will throw you out. It’s a different game.

What your insurance company says about the matter does not matter with respect to your participation in the GAME OF SAILBOAT RACING! Again, does anyone know of an insurance company that follows the Racing Rules of Sailing… not the coast guard regs?

Hopefully its clear.
Why does this matter… see my thread on Competition and Resentment!
IMO… people who choose to be ignorant of the rules CAUSE RESENTMENT on the Race course and hurt the sport by driving people away. Everyone wants to have a fun event… but when %^%& hits the fan… they want to know the rules are being followed (no surprises allowed) and that the playing field is fair.

Warning: I am neither a lawyer or insurance agent so these opinions are just that.... opinions based on my reading of the rules and policies. Anybody else have a different take?

Take Care
Mark

Mark,

I disagree with this bit.

All it means is that you have lost the protest as you are deemed to have broken a rule. You have not admitted liability. In the broken tiller bar example, you could argue that yes, you broke the rules (and so loose the protest) but the casue of the damage was the brokjen tiller, so you are not liable, the manufacturer of the tiller bar is liable as the tiller bar was not fit-for-purpose.

The problem is proving it, and if you do we will all made to use solid stainless tiller bars as thet won't break!

Hi Scooby... I think you still are wearing your insurance hat.



This is the US Sailing prescription for the USA so maybe you don't have this rule in GB.

I still read this as I restated...

Now maybe that means that you don't have to pay up... but I don't know what responsiblity means then.

Do your insurance policies in Great Britan cover you UNDER the Racing Rules of Sailing explicitly?

I know that I ask about coverage for racing and I am TOLD that Sure ... you are... but I don't believe I have ever seen it in writing and I know they don't refer to the racing rules of sailing.

Take Care
Mark

The part was not defective, it just broke. Standard I-20 Tiller Crossbar, I had assembled it the day before it was fine and serviceable. We put all kinds of stresses on our equipment, and even with inspection, sometimes the stressors of the day's sailing will break even a new part. Boats are getting lighter and lighter, At some point we sacrifice longevity.
I still disagree with my Insurance company, will always do so, Nothing will change my mind. Had I just hit Mark Broadside, they would have paid off the claim. Sudden gust ovepowered my boat, could be an act of God but if that's the case then every windshift is, and they'll never pay up. They should not take money for coverage they are not going to provide. If it's not criminal it ought to be, taking money with no intent to provide service seems fraudulent to me.
[color:"red"] BOO HISS!, STATE FARM!! [/color]
When I've chased enough busness away to a provider that might provide coverage, I'll still be out $300 and they will will have defaulted on their committment.

The purpose of the rules is to provide a method of identifying a winner when a rule is broken (and this may result in a collision). The International rules for the prevention of collisions at sea are there to prevent colissions.

This is why the insurance company may take into consideration what the PC say. The PC find out what they believe happened, what the results were and which rule(s) we broken, thus they provide a ruling on how the sailing rules apply.

Interesting one re this:



So what if the owner is not present(or the owner of the insurance policy), can he or she be held responsible for actions they have little control over (except by appointing the skipper).


As for how the cover is written, I would think that it would be written under the racing rules and administered under the IRPCAS.

I have also never known an insurance company in the UK not pay based on a gear failure causing the accident.

Basically a company not paying (based on true statements from the policy holder) would be such a No-no in our insurance market. Afterall Lloyds have been underwriting for a few years now!

I have only seen loosers after collisions..

No doubt.

US Sailing carefully walks a line in their race prescriptions when it comes to liability and insurance...rightfully so. If they leave the door open to where they admit to being a party to determining "at fault" then they suddenly become part of the equation and any potential litigation. So their stance that they only determine the outcome of the racing serves them well in this regard. In the one relatively significant instance I had, the insurance company took the findings of the protest committee and consulted a maritime attourney and came to a conclusion.

This is the second instance where I've heard that State Farm pulled the "equipment failure" or "poor design" thing. Why did the tiller bar break? Was it established that there was a high rate of tiller bars breaking therefore they determined that it was a manufacturing problem? No...this is a first line of defense and is intended to get you to turn away. You'll have to go through legal motions to get them to pay up (and for $300 it's certainly not going to be worth it). This is why I didn't choose State Farm even though they offered comparable rates for my boats because I heard of another such instance on a larger scale (daggerboard ripping through hull). When I had my incident and it suddenly looked like there was going to be a fight, I approached my home owner's insurance about filing a claim to repair/replace my boat...They told me that this would be a bad idea because too many claims on my home owner's insurance would result in me being dropped! I've been paying State Farm for 15 years with one minor auto claim that entire time. That response really dissapointed me. Who is paying who here? They act like THEY are the customer and that I should feel privaledged that they will take my money.

Jake:
So who did you end up with for Insurance and WHY?
Still think if we all banded together and used the same company, it would be a no brainer they'd have to pay regardless.
CARY

It's Progressive Insurance...However, I've never made a claim with them so I can't really speak for how they might react. Their customer service has been outstanding with regard to setting up the account and taking my money!

I agree with you about the relationship of the PC with the insurance company with resect to the issue of liablity. The insurance company and the legal system will determine liability. So a court could decide that you are 60% liabile for the accident and will enforce that judgement. If you don't pay (or your insurance company won't pay) they can take further legal action through the civil courts.

The critical part that puts your pocketbook at risk (If you want to continue sailboat racing) is part C in which you agree to be responsibile for the damage solely on the basis of fault as determined by the racing rules and the PC and you expressly agree to NOT be bound by the legal system, insurance company etc.

So you agree to be responsible...and so you pay up.... not because you are legally liable... but rather because you agree to this rule. The civil court does not enforce anything here.. rather you agreed to pay up whatever your insurance company won't pay when you registered for the regatta.

For example, a windward leeward crash in which the racing rules clearly award the leeward boat right of way and that is the PC judgement. The damages for both boat are equal at 5000 for each. However, the insurance companies decide that it's a 60 to 40% split of responsibility eg the 40% of the liability is to the leeward boat who according to the racing rules is not at fault

What happens now?
Does this mean windward will pay the other guys Leeward's deductible of 500 because you windward were at fault under the racing rules and the insurance companies have sorted out how much each company will pay but you windward are 100% responsible since you lost the protest.

Does this mean that you pay the 40% of the damages out of pocket (4000) because you agreed to be responsible and leeward does not want to put the claim in on his insurance since he is 40% liable because "he was not at fault in the protest committee" and you agreed to be responsible for damages irregardless of the court/insurance liability judgment?

Hmmm?

I think that in the UK market (at least) the insurance companies sort it out them selves, there is (as far as I am aware) not a "clause C" in our racing regatta rules (you just sign to say you have 3rd party cover to the value of), but then we have what I believe is a watertight set of insurace clauses and so it is very unlikely that one of the insurance co's won't pay.

Sounds like you guys in the US have been victim of some sharp practices by the companies involved.

Our 3rd Party cover is for the damage to the other boat and also for injuries. In the 2 big shunts I've had (one my fault one not).... (admittedly both over 15 years ago)

When It was my fault the company just paid up as it was a windward leaward.

The other was a Port stbd and the other boat just weaved all over the place and made it impossible for me to avoid them.



There would be such an outcry and chaos at Lloyds if an insurnace company refused to pay that it would just not be worth it for the insurance co concerned.

IMO those involved have been "had".

Find a reputable insurance comany and use them.

Yep, State Arm Excels at that too. Just the getting any of it back that was a pain. Admittedly, when Our house flooded, they were quite good with paying me the $12000 in repairs.
Insurance is due in a couple months, that's why the interest. Switched in a hurry last time. Need to investigate before time's up with my BoatUS coverage.
Anyone had any claims with USSailing?