Bim XJ vs Nacra A2

Who has sailed both that wieghts around 210

Thinking of moving to a A cat.

We have a real good fleet ant Houston Yacht Club.

Doug Snell
Hobie 17
www.tcdyc.com

I'd like to know the price diff between the two also

Someone else will have to help with the BiM XJ

Here is the Nacra A2

http://nacraa2.com/price.html

Ain't cheap!!!

Doug Snell
Hobie 17
www.tcdyc.com

Hey Doug. I went thru the same thing when I was looking for an A Cat, trying to figure out which boat to buy. I wish that race results included the boat type, that would help. What has impressed me since getting into it though is how close in performance all of the boats really are. I do feel strongly that wave pircing bows are an advantage over the older straight up bows but beyond that I can beat or be beaten by any type of boat, depending on the opposing sailor, not the boat. My 2 cents. Ed

I know a lot is skipper. I just wanted first hand experience that was not from factory are a paid sailor. What kind of boat do you have and how long have you sailed it?

Doug

That brings a really good question: Why are the A boats so expensive? Is this an elite club or just gouging?

I don't think it is gouging or an elite club. The volume of A Class boats sold each year is not large. To produce these boats in production, you need molds for the hulls, rudder blades, daggerboards, rudder heads, and probably more items. This is not counting the molds used for the autoclaved masts, as these items are usually purchased by the factory (for those that buy a complete boat) or the owner (if they want something different from the stock mast). Once you have the mast out of the autoclave, then there is the materials and assembly to get you spreaders (Proctor) and diamond wires (Dyform) and the internal downhaul and the blocks and cleats for the rotator and then pay to have someone do all the assembly of the mast. Then there are the materials used like beams, curved traveler, blocks, line, hiking stick, tiller connector, trampoline and other hardware. Don't forget that you have all the labor and materials to make the carbon hulls, boards, rudders, rudder heads, assemble all the hardware to the boat and then package everything to ship it to a customer. There is the cost of the sail to be added.

Most of this is done on all catamarans, but with different materials, however, all the fixed costs need to be spread over a much lower volume of boats sold. Also, volume of any design drops when the next winning design is unveiled. In the end, someone needs to invest a great deal to get the first boat to a regatta. The time delay from first investing in a design to producing saleable boats is significant.

In the business world, A Class boat building would fall near the bottom of the list of things you would invest your money in. It is surprising we have any choice at all!

That is how I look at it.

Amen!!

Somehow we got sidetracked. I am looking for someone at about my weight that has sailed both boats.

Doug

Talk with Lars Guck.

He just got and won with an A2 and they had several XJ'
s up in Bristol.

I do not know if that is the case in everywhere, but here in EU, boats are expensive mainly because they are hand made. Serial productions are not really present (with possible exceptions, I do not know) and this has a great impact on prices. I can assure you that personnaly as a dealer, I may never get rich due to boats selling. Obviously, I know it and do this business mainly for passion. Hopefully we get some electronical, wetsuits, harness etc.. that help us.

Sorry I do not have experience enough on A-CAt to give a feedback on the Bim XJ vs A2 topic.
Jr

I'm not too sure about the limited production numbers being the reason for the A-cats high cost price. Afterall I can name a few other boat types with lower production numbers and heaps more hardware that are seriously cheaper then the A-cats.

I think we must look more towards the basic design of the A's. Scott Anderson says it in that French cat sailing DVD. You have to tinker and continiously redesign the A-cat if you want to stay near the front. I think this leads to rather short competitive lifespans of each individual A-cat design. Pretty much you have to design a good A-cat, promote the hell out of it ($$$) and then try to recover your costs in about 4 to 5 years before the next improved design comes along. The open A-class rules in turn also force everybody to go to expensive production methodes. Carbon right now is on extremely high demand due to Airbus and Boeing buying huge quantities for their new planes. I hear from different sources that currently carbon cloth of the right specs is nearly impossible to get. The A-cats of course were almost 90% carbon. In addition I feel that A-cat have opted for some expensive design features. I still would love to see an A-cat come out with a redesigned alu beams setup and show that it can be just as good as glued in carbon beams. However I also understand that that will not go anywhere as the A-cat sailor don't want aluminium, not even if it is just as good. It makes the wrong statement, most of them feel. It is just like with watches I can't tell the difference in the measuring of time between a decent electronic Casio and a Rolex, still a certain group of people prefer to pay heaps more for the Rolex. Why ? For some reason I don't think that all that gold and silver makes any impact on the time keeping machine inside the watch. I often feel the same way about use of carbon in some catamarans.

A-cats are relatively speaking enourmously expensive. Their is not much on them. A mast, a mainsail, and some rigging. Compare this to the fittings on say an F18 (who are stiffer in the platforms than the A-cats as well and quite close in round the course performance); Spinnaker packages, jib setups add alot of cost and still the A's are more expensive.

Now, I personally don't think that the A's being expensive is a bad thing. Like the Rolex's there is always a group of buyers that don't want anything else. It needs to be top of line and full of expensive technology. Otherwise they are boring or not interested. The A-cat class suits this nice very well and has done so for many years. And the A-cat class has a well established role in the greated scheme of beach catamarans. Often it experiments with things that later find their way in the other classes as well. That is all very good. The problems only come when recreational sailors want to have an A-cat. These sailors don't belong to the first group and these sailors don't like progress and experimentation very much. Pretty much these sailors want price effective (or attractive) boats that keep their value for many years and they want to feel competitive with their boat for at least as many years. All these things are in full conflict with what the A-cat truly is. Everybody wants to have a Ferrari for the price of a Suzuki alto, but the expensiveness of the Ferrari is also what makes it exclusive and thus what makes people want it. So even if the Ferrari company could make them cheaper they will not do for damaging the reputation of the brand and of the products.

Indeed, the A-cat its price and forced use of difficult and expensive production technologies make the A-cat class what it is and it will never become a price attractive class. Neither in purchase cost or even maintainance costs. Both AHPC and BIM tried to market a more inexpensive and more easily producable A-cat than fully blow A-cats. Both failed at that, I feel people just wanted the real things for about 30 % less of the cost to make one of them.

If you want a high tech wapon with all the carbon wistles and bells, then you will have to pay for that buddy ! If you don't want to pay for it then you'll end up on a F16, FX-one or Inter-17 like the rest of us.


Wouter

Does anyone know what the worldwide market for A boats is?
Aren't all cats hand made?
I would be surprised if a cat like a nacra F17 had much more volume than an A cat from, lets say, BIM..

Sorry Doug to digress from the thread topic...

But I must say I am rather stunned by sticker shock on the new A-cats. I almost wish you could buy a new but older-technology A-class from a reputable builder (like Nacra or Hobie or AHPC, Marstom, etc) for less money for us less-competitive types who just want to sail a light, fast boat. But then it wouldn't be a devleopmental class - that sounds more like one-design. I actually thought of looking for an older wooden A-class with an aluminum mast and cross-bars just for pleasure sailing (Not to imply that racing is unpleasurable...)
Oh well, I guess you can't have your cake and eat it too. That is why I bought an FX-1 ("I guess I fall into the group called "the rest of us" as Wouter said). $19.5K US is too rich for my blood.

Doug, I hope you do buy an A-class and wish you the best of luck. I can say that after owning 4 Nacra's, (all bought new), they are pretty tough boats. I have no experience with Bimare.

Steve Bellavia
Hobie FX-1
Sail # 211

Doug,

As an A2 owner, I'll offer the following insights based upon being a previous owner of a Mk. IV and Mk. V Auscat:

1. I think the A2 is the quickest handling catamaran I have ever sailed. The combination of very high aspect daggerboards and more hull rocker make this boat steer beautifully. With proper weight placement, it comes as close to tacking like a monohull as any catamaran I have ever sailed.
2. The volume distribution reduces the tendency of the transoms to drag in the water in light air upwind and downwind. On my Mk. V (which is the Flyer underbody), we found you had to sit on or just in front of the front beam in light air. You can sit behind the front beam on the A2.
3. The boat is very user friendly to sail. I don't think there is any inherent performance advantage versus a Flyer, Bim XJ, or Marstrom but the easier it is to sail, the more consistent your technique will be and the faster you will sail the boat through the water.
4. I have raced four A-class regattas since getting the boat in September. I am sailing faster and more consistently downwind, no doubt.
5. Upwind initially, I felt off the pace with the boat but at the Midwinters, I put in more spreader rake on the Hall mast which evened out the shape of both my Ullman and Glaser mainsails top to bottom. This made an improvement in my light and moderate air upwind speed.

I don't think the A2 is a design breakthrough. I think Pete took a long look at the Flyer design and asked himself how he could improve it, not make a radical departure from it. I think the boat has made a statement with its regatta successes in the last year.

Regarding the BIM XJ, I have not sailed it but two excellent US A-class sailors, Phil Kinder and Ben Hall, have and like the boat very much. I talked to Phil at the Midwinters and he thought some things on the XJ were outdated like the rudder head system (the carbon rudder heads on the Marstrom, Auscat, and A2 boats are a lot better) and using a dolphin striker on the front beam. The foils on the XJ are nice shapes but are hollow and could tend to leak over time. The foils on the A2 are solid construction.

Regarding some of the comments about the A-class being expensive, I won't deny that it is not but the boats are all carbon construction and the price of carbon is very high at this time and that is not helping. Plus, supply and demand economics dictate that this low volume produced class is going to cost more. But considering what you get in terms of ease of use and just pure fun factor, I think its one of the best values out there. And the boats last a long time if taken care of properly (no, you still cannot sail it on to the beach at full speed). They also maintain excellent resale value. I have switched boats twice since purchasing my Mk. IV in 2001. It has cost me $3K - $4K each time I have done this after selling my old boat to a new A-class sailor.

Hope this helps.

Bob Hodges

Bob:

Thanks for info. I think I am going to get a Glaser sail when I get A2 because he knows the boat and will build a sail based on my weight. How do you like it? Did you gt the foam racing battens? If things go as I hope and money I have coming comes thru, maybe I will see you at HYC of Deep South sometime. Get on our site and go in the forum.

Doug Snell
Hobie 17
www.tcdyc.com

You'll be very happy with the Glaser. Jay will probably make an adjustment to the luff curve based upon your weight and will probably make some recommendations on specific spreader rake and diamond tension.

I'd recommend the RBS carbon battens over the Fiberfoams. They are more expensive but are lighter and will probably last a lot longer.

I'll be in Houston the weekend after next for the HYC midwinters if you want to check the boat out. I've made some changes that Pete is aware of.

Bob

Bob Hodges has made many excellent points about the A2 series.
As a new, imported XJ owner, I need to improve using some sail that I don't presently own. The Zuccoli sail that came with the boat (no choice!) from Italy for lots of euros a year ago was too flat. Woodie Cope who got an identical XJ agreed with me, but then he bought a nice Ullman last summer, then an excellent Glaser sail that got him 4th and 5th place this month. Matt MacDonald (VectorWorks) will have to explain what he is building and selling now, and what sails work.

Again this is development: they ain't no book!

The other older platforms include all-carbon Marstroms- beloved by those who sail them: these folks are now using Landenberg sails with Marstrom masts and don't want to even think about anything else! Tony Ahrens is building nice custom sails here, then there are the Australian sails from Ashby, Goodall etc to match the Fiberform and Composite masts and newer Flyer or older Boyer Mark IV and Auscat platforms ( I don't know much about these rigs). Jay and Pease Glaser like their older Waterats by Pete Melvin.

Bob:

If I have my truck by then (no transportaion now), I will try to hook up with you. What is your sail number? If not, will you be at Deep South?

Doug

My sail number is USA 230. Tentatively I'm planning to go to Gulfport for Gordon Isco's event and it is the same weekend as Deep South. That may change.

Bob

Bob:

If I may ask, at what weight do you sail? I should know by end of month if I can put order in. Don't what the waiting period is for one.

Doug

Doug,

I'm around 158 lbs, somewhat on the light side for an A-Cat.

Bob

Bob:

I hope Glaser sail cut makes up for my extra lbs

Doug

Doug,

A few bits of advice.

1. Time on the water is way more important than whether you have a sail made by Ullman, Glaser, Ashby, Goodall, Arends, etc. The choice of sail at this point is minor compared to getting a boat and getting out on the water.
2. At 210 lbs, yes you'll probably give some performance away in light air against a sailor of equal or better ability. However, I have seen Doug Graf who is closer to 250 lbs sail boat for boat with sailors 50-100 lbs lighter in 10 knots of wind and less. In 12 knots and above, you'll have no excuses. Doug Graf in 12 knots or more upwind is scary fast.
3. The most competitive weight range I think for the boat is 165 lbs to 185 lbs. Anything outside that range tends to compromise towards lighter air or heavier air. If you were looking for an excuse to lose 10-20 lbs, maybe this is it!
4. There may be no class in the US right now that is deeper in talent with several national/North American champions, a couple of world champions, and four Olympic medalists attending regattas around the country. That said, "check your ego in at the door" and be prepared to start a very steep learning curve. A new sailor can have the most fun in the boat because while they may not get the results they would like and their ego might get a bit bruised, they will learn an incredible amount in a short time period. They will find the A-class sailors are extremely open with information on boat setup, tuning, and sailing technique.
5. If you are concerned about the budget for an A2, keep in mind that at your weight, you are an excellent candidate for a Marstrom. I think a couple of the Marstrom sailors in the Houston area may be selling their boats in the next 3-6 months. Call Bob Webbon or Troy King.

Good Luck,

Bob Hodges

Bob:

If I decide to get it, budget won't be a problem. If Doug Graf has no problem with weight then I will just have to learn the boat. I have uni experience, just will have to learn a A cat. I am excited at the way these boats fly!!!! Kevin was RIPPING on Clear Lake. I just like the look of the A2 and from the response I get it is one HELL of a boat. Maybe I can get a ride sometime on one?
Hope to make it to HYC next weekend if I can get a ride.

Doug

It looks like this thread has about ended, so perhaps I can make an hijack attempt..

Are plywood hulls for an A-cat still feasible, or has the minimum weight dropped too low? What if one wants to put a spi on it?
What I am really asking about is: Is it still possible to build a somewhat competitive plywood A-cat at home (I know there are building descriptions out there, and photos, but will they be competitive on a local/national scene).

Rolf,

I know a chap who built a Marmian set of A class (similar to AHPC MK3)back in 89 fitted with an Alspar aluminium mast with an all up sailing weight of 74kg. 1kg under the current min for the class.

The boat is still being sailed.

This chap had built before and knew what he was doing.
Probably not a project for the first timer unless there were very exact contruction instructions including exact quantities and weights for all materials. (BTW:- when selecting cedar I have measured variations in weight of 50% and found the lighter the colour of the cedar the lighter it weighs.)

When you compare the modern shape the Marmian has greater surface area so from that point, in theory, you should be able to build todays shape even lighter. The use of carbon striker straps, (if you choose to have one) carbon beams that can be glued in etc should further help reduce weight. (Beam bolts and striker strap are heavyier than you'd think.)
The only problem is coming up with a modern shaped design that has light enough building techniques.
So I think it would be possible, but there is a big gap between the possible and the actual.
Someone would have to committ themselve to doing and prototyping a design to make it a reality.

If anyone gives it a go I'd be interested to hear how it turns out for them.

Just the way I see it.
Regards,
Phill

Phill,

was this with plywood, cold moulded, or with strip (you mentioned cedar..)?

Rolf,
3mm Gaboon ply with strips of cedar for gunwales and beam landings and stringers and lightweight struss system of cedar inside to stiffen the hull as the Marmian plans don't have anything like the bulkheads specified in the AHPC MK2 and MK3 plans. I think it mentions in the MK2 and 3 plans the hulls should come out at around 20kg per hull while I think you need more like 17.5kg per hull to get down to min weight.
Knowing the weight of ply ,cedar, resin, tapes etc you can get a good idea of where you should end up before you start.
Rather than hijack this thread anymore we can discuss the exact quantities and weights offline.

Regars,
Phill

Track record of the Bim XJ (standard BIMARE platform and mast)in 2005:
first place Italian (BIMARE main), Spanish and Swiss National Championships;
third place German and French Championships (BIMARE mains);
sixth place World Championship (BIMARE main).
In 2006 Phil Kinder (XJ platform) and Woody Coope (XJ platform and BIMARE mast) got respectively the first and fifth place at the Cocunut Invitational and again Woody Coope got the forth place at the NA Midwinters.

Wouter,
Both my Acat beams were $650 from Forte RTS. At that price why would you bother with aluminum beam on an Acat? Plus I can glue the beams on saving more weight, as opposed to build in fittings for bolting the aluminum beams down.

Plus I dont need a dolphin striker.

Lighter, stiffer, simpler, easier with Carbon beams.

My project came in at about $10k, thats including a $2500 Hall mast.

Carbon cloth for the hulls was $800, that was a 2005 price, but its no where near the majority of the cost.

Bill, have you launched yet? If so, how does it handle and perform?

Doug,
You might want to talk to Steve Clark, he has a set of A cat molds made by Dirk Kramers, for the heavier A cat sailor. You are a candidate for this hull at 210lbs.

Steve, Dirk, and a couple of other larger guys have all pulled hulls out of his molds.

Email me at wjvining at yahoo for more info.

Bill

Rolf,
I havent launched yet, as soon as it warms up here it will go in the water. Steve reports that his boat handles very well.

Bill

It all adds up Bill. Either that or the builders are making 18.200 USD - 10.000 USD(as in your costs) = 8200 USD profit on each boat sold.

Besides I will only be impressed when you can offer your A-cat commercially to everybody for 10K. I've heard too many "only ..." quotes in my time that proved to end up squarely on much higher final pricings.

Wouter

When did I say I could offer it commercially for $10k? Come on Wouter, dont be stupid. Its a homebuilt project. Thats $10k without including my labor.

A commercial builder would add in his labor costs as well, but would buy wholesale parts and raw materials, so your response is totally off base and ridiculous, as usual.

You know what, Bill, I've build my own boat as well. I know what costs are involved. And I can assure anyone out there that the notion that someone can homebuild any competitive A-cat for 10K USD or less, without spreading the significant costs for moulds; tooling, test pieces and what not over a larger group of home-builders, is seriously dellusional. I guess you are leaving some more things out as well, apart from time-investment/labour costs.




Well, that is for the others to decide. And I have warm feelings for you too.

Wouter

Wouter:

If you can't home-build a competitive A cat, how close can you come?

I think the prices mentioned in this thread (for manufactured boats)are very reasonable for what you get, but have neither the sailing skill or motivation to warrant the expense. Still, I'd like a light agile boat and have the skill to build it in wood, given a decent set of plans.

So! What say you! How much would such a boat weigh, how high would it point, and how much would it cost?

Wouter,

I havent left anything out of my number, every tool purchased for the project, every part, every bolt, every piece of raw material is in that $10k number.

I paid a mold fee to Steve Clark for the use of his molds and he is spreading the cost for the molds between 10 boats.

So, yes, you can build a competitive A cat for $10k.

Dellusional - no

So, how many man hours? Wharram estimates 400 man hours for the construction of a 21 foot cat. At the risk of comparing apples and oranges, a used A cat is looking pretty good. The prices I've found over the last 4 days run from $6- $10K. If you buy the $6k boat and replace everything that needs replacing, you save a lot of time and have a proven hull form.

I have about 120 hours in the boat, and I still need to paint it and finish a few misc parts.

My hat is off to you! That is a truly phenomenal skill level! I've worked around wood for over thirty years and don't believe I could have finished the Wharrram project in appreciably less than 400 hours (so I bought one already built!)

Still, since I know nothing about carbon fiber, I'll probably upgrade an existing boat.

So why do you insist on breaking my balls?

Bill

C'mon Bill, why don't you just invite Wouter over to this country and you can adopt him? He'd make a great son for you!

Get Steve to send some pictures of his boat to the USACA website. We'd all love to see it.

Bob

I am sorry Wouter but I have to agree, If you just take the material costs then you can have a full carbon A cat (fully competitive or not depending on all those other variables between hull shape, foil shapes, sails, etc) for $10K US, BUT, material costs are only one element for a "commercial" builder, don't forget, labour, profit, overheads and that big ugly one TAX. When they are all added together you can approximately treble the material costs to reach an equitable retail price.

Yep I used to think that way as well. If only looking at material cost I would have ...


It looked promising for a while when I was building my own boat, then I had to fit it out: cleats, blocks, boards, stainless steel hardware etc. All small costs in themselfs but overall quite a big portion. Not to forget that you can't build yourself the required moulds (hulls and boards) in addition to the boat and stay under 10K USD. Bill is lucky that he can pay only a small portion of the mould costs as the he has access to moulds that are used buy many other builders. In addition you need vacuum pumps, tubes and disposable items like bleeding cloth etc. All adding themselfs to the cost of a single A-cat unless you already have all those items or are sharing them with other homebuilders. Either way the costs are added to the building of the boat or you are rewriting those costs to other projects.

Mast fittings ! WOW ! Either you have to make them out of stainless steel yourself (requires professional grade tooling) or you can expect to pay alot for literally a handful of parts.

I can honestly say that I could not build a fully fitted F16 (with alu components) for less then 11.500 Euro's (14000 US$). And my mast was only 880 Euro's including taxes and shipping. My beams fully fitted were about 150 Euro's, my boom and spi pole were only 74 Euro's combined. Try to get these components in carbon or better still try to make these components out of carbon yourself. Each will require their own moulds or mandrils which will cost as well. Then you'll need to teach yourself proper technique (test pieces). I've ran the numbers back then and I could not build a F16 a la A-cat (= no other sails then mainsail and carbon mast beams) for less then 11.000 Euro's. So I opted to ditch the carbon stuff for the aluminium and spend the cost savings for F16 specific parts like the spinnaker setup and jib.

In addition; the hulls of my boat were build using the deck jig of a friend so the quoted final price doesn't include the full cost of that.

Naturally you can make things in a really inexpensive way if you have all the required facilities and tooling already (due to other projects or work). Hell, I'm sure Phill Brander can build himself a Blade F16 for the smallest amount of investment (material costs) but that is because he has made all the other costs in earlier projects already.

But this is a long way from be able to say that "One can build an Blade F16 for the same minimal investment"

Now, I'm not saying that Bill DIDN'T build his for 10K or less, just that there is more to that achievement then he is giving away. He sure as hell was able to cut down on costs by sharing moulds and other stuff. It is impossible to do it without these cost savings.

Wouter

Wouter:




Hey, I didn't say you couldn't home-build a competitive A-cat, I only said that you couldn't homebuild it for less then 10K USD. Of course I will have to add here that this assumes that you can not get access to all the required tooling and moulds (of a competitive A-cat class design) for some incredibally low cost.






Well that is another thing. As far as I know the group around Steve Clark is the only A-cat group of homebuilders that seem to have access to a modern A-cat hull shape. All the plans that are available for A-cats are seriously outdated and will not result in a competitive A-cat or are very rudimentary. The last means that you pretty much have to find your own way with respect to building steps and methodes. Of course this requires alot of time and even some prior building experiences. The Taipan building plans (Not an A-cat) are more elaborate in these respect and they also cover the design and building method of the beams, mast and boards (among other things). But still these plans are pretty dated and do require alot of time investment to sort out the errors and such.

If you want a modern (competitive) shaped hull then you need to do what Bill has done and get into contact with the builders around the moulds owned by Steve Clark or get the Blade F16 plans. Both of these designs are modern hullshapes and both allow you to build the parts yourself.


Picture below shows a Marine-ply/epoxy Blade F16 (orange) and a Marine-ply/epoxy Taipan F16 (grey)




One benefit of the Blade F16 is that it is designed to be build out of tortured marine ply and will probably fit in very well with your wood working skills. Only the seams are glassed (with epoxy resin and glass tape); the main surfaces are not. If the used batch of marine ply is of a good quality then the hulls will be very stirdy as well despite their low weight. You don't need moulds for the hulls, nor extensive vacuum bagging techniques. The building plans cost 250 Aus$ = 190 US$ and rought 200 hours are required to complete the ply boats. For an impression Go to this page (showing the building of a Taipan by tortured play method) : http://www.geocities.com/phillbrander/taipan/taipan_construction.htm


If you are interested then e-mail me at wouterhijink(at)hotmail.com and I will show you pictures of the Blade F16 building proces in tortured play or the pics of my Taipan 4.9 homebuild when it was under construction. And I can put you into contact with the design of the boat itself so you can purchase the plans or ask questions to him.

With respect to cost. You must not expect to save much money when homebuilding. You can save some but in my experience not more than about 15 %; that is unless you can really cut costs due to work relationships or something. You can buy a commercially build Blade F16 for 13.000 USD; I don't expect a normal average homebuilder to go below 11.000 USD.

The true attraction of homebuilding is the satisfaction of sailing a fruit of your own labour and the fact that you can do everything (have everything) exactly the way you want. The last thing really adds to the enjoyment of sailing.






The A-cats require some close control on the building techniques in order to not come out to heavy. Typically the A-cats hulls at 18 feet length come in at 13-15 kgs a piece. Same applies to most other parts as the overall A-cat platform minimum weight is 75 kgs.

The Blade F16 hulls are 25 kg's a piece. F16's have a minium weight of 107 kg's and a relatively good homebuilder can achieve that minimum weight.

In performace there are not many boats at all who can outpoint or outrun an A-cat upwind. With the introduction of the spinnakers (F20, F18, F16's) quite a few boats can now outrun and outpoint A-cats on the downwind legs. On reaching legs all boats seem to be pretty even. Don't expect to outpoint a monohull skiff on any catamaran, but you completely expect to outrun them when going upwinds. The VMG of the A-cats are just much higher.

Cost ?

In general you should be able to homebuild an F16 for about 25 % less money then an A-cat. Especially now as the carbon cloth is pretty hard to get these days as Boeing and Airbus have bought up nearly all the production capacity of desired carbon cloth for the next two years. The only alternative is to go for full Kevlar construction of the hulls (in the way of Blade F16 you can also choose to use marine grade ply) ; however Kevlar is a pretty rotten material to work with. It produces great hulls, maybe even better then carbon cloth, but it is really not much fun to work with.

Well, if you are interested in the Timber/epoxy construction method (either F16 or A-cats) or just the F16 path then I'm open to all your questions. With respect to carbon and kevlar A-cats I can best refer you to Bill and the group around Steve Clark.

I hope this helps,

Wouter

Wouter has it right in my experience. The hulls are not that expensive, especially not if you build them yourself in ply/epoxy. But when you begin to buy all the small fittings and blocks, you will be astonished at the bottom line (I was).

Best option if on a tight budget and you want to homebuild, is to find an old beachcat, preferably with one or both hulls wrecked and buy it for the fittings, rig and beams. I have all the equipment from our first Tornado (hulls are history) in storage, and I am not selling..
Carbon cloth can be bought at a discount at manufacturers. They often have leftowers from the looms, if you can get in a position to buy it. Carbon tubes, "I" beams and other profiles can be bought from 'pulltrusion' firms who manufacture them for the industry. The challenge again is to find them and convince them to sell you the parts you need (if they make them).

Kevin Cooke built an all carbon Tornado (that I wanted to buy) for much less than $10k. I know this because he was selling it, fully rigged with carbon spars, beams, and sails for $9k.

Yes he has an autoclave in his backyard.

I dont think there is any more than I am giving away.

I worked with Steve last winter in his shop to lay up the hulls. I took the 4 halves home one winter day and stuck them in my basement. Once I had the foam cut and fitted to the mold it takes about a half day to lay up hulls, if you use Nomex you can do 2 halves in one day. Cutting the carbon according to the pattern takes about a half day. The hulls prior to mine were done in a weekend.

http://www.intcanoe.us/mygallery/index.asp - see A cat construction Feb 05

I built the bulkheads, and sterns in my basement with corecell foam, carbon cloth and epoxy, without vacuum pressure, tabbed them into the hulls. Made anchor points for the rigging out of fiberglass and epoxy, and tapped in Wichard anchor bolts.

I glued the hulls together with Proset and beamed up the boat (Proset again) with the help of a carpenter friend. Lots of measuring, laid the lines out on a concrete floor. Glued it all together, which I think was easier than building anchor points for beam bolts.

I purchased new Flyer Rudders and rudderheads, and purchased used daggers. I got the boom and beams from Forte I got a used curved travelor from a friend, used an old travelor car, modified with carbon plate, and added components from my spare parts box.

Midboom sheeting was custom made, no mold, just built up carbon and epoxy, using an Ronstan rachet block on a cutoff section of boom.

Mast from Hall with gibb tangs and carbon gooseneck.

Phil Kinder made me a tramp.

The only mold was the hull mold.

I collected chop sticks for stirrers, and used plastic butter containers for epoxy mixing pots.

If anyone wants to try it, I would be happy to introduce them to Steve, and share any of the things I learned along the way. I will also lend you the Proset gun and a handful of chopsticks.

No secrets Wouter.

Hey! now that's a great tip!

Look this is what I was talking about :












I'm assuming here Phil Kinder is a private person and not a sailmaker and he was only charging you material costs.




Which was build and is owned by another guy. This guy made the expenses and allows the others to seriously cut down on production costs. This is not something most of us have access too.








Great please send that tool to me in the Netherlands I promise I will send it back to you.






Indeed, you are not making any secrets of it, but I think we have established now that there was more too it then what the first impression was suggesting. You did have access to a mould of what looks like a competitive A-cat and in the group there was ample experience in building good quality hulls (boats). Some other guys helped you with second hand parts, stitching your trampoline and what not (all rather significant cost savings) and you already had some stuff yourself you could use.

Did you order a new mainsail ? Or did you pick up a second hand one ?

Indeed no secrets, but some other guy must be able to reproduce all these things in order to come out below or at 10K himself. Try getting a secondhand curved rear traveller everyone ?


Actually I think Rolf made an excellent comment here. Best is to buy an old cat cheaply for all the parts like blocks, mainsheet system etc and save a bundle not having to buy these things new. Because indeed these parts new are alot of cost.

Fair winds to you and your new boat Bill,

Wouter

Wouter,
Cut the crap.

I PAID Phil Kinder to build me a tramp. Your assumption is WRONG, he builds tramps for a BUSINESS. And he charged me regular retail price. http://www.kinder-industries.com/

I PAID Steve Clark for the use of the mold. We did it in his shop because they are big and heavy, and I didnt want to move them to my shop. I could have easily done it in my garage it I had chosen too.

I PAID for the used parts - travelor, etc.

I PAID for the new parts too.

My crime is that I got a used travelor? Well, I bought a $2500 Hall mast too, so that is the other end of the scale. Oh heavens, I used some spare bolts I had lying around! If anyone is going to attempt to build a boat, you would expect that they might use some of the stuff they have laying around if it works?

Cut it out.

My budget is realistic, and could have even been less if I had sourced a less expensive mast.

You are not proving anything except that you are a pain in the butt.

Yeah, right. Carbon is impossible to get unless you happen to go to Jamestown Distributors or have access to the internet.

http://www.jamestowndistributors.com/find;a;1;ID;,Fiberglass,Carbon.Fiber,Carbon.Fiber.Cloth


Get real Wouter.

Actually Wouter, I bet Steve would help anyone on this forum make a set of hulls if you asked him nicely.

I know of another set of molds that you could borrow.

And I could name 3 people who would help with info, questions, etc.

Oh,and if you happen to check out the Acat website, they have lots of used and new stuff for sale all the time.

So, no I didnt have any special access.

No special secrets.

Sorry

any useful parts here?
[img]http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotor...PageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem[/img]

I guess that two independent professional catamaran builders (with hunderds of sport catamarans sold) plus a well known carbon mast builder with tens of masts in the competitive A-cat fleet are all mistaken then. As it was they who told me of the carbon shortages.

You know what, I really don't care what you think. Any person that you convince to home build a competitive A-cat due to the 10K claim will soon enough learn what the real situation is.

I can tell everybody out there that I couldn't build my timber/epoxy Taipan F16 (fully rigged with alu beams and mast) for less than 11.500 Euro's and yes I used some secondhand parts as well just like Bill. Hell my mainbeam was part of a broken mast that I could buy really cheap. Back then I could get an Ashby mainsail (competitive) for 1400 Aus$ and now he is charging 1850 Aus$. An increase of 30 % in 3 years. And it will all add up.

Now everybody else make up their own minds.

Wouter

Just for the record.

The Poo-Bah is siding with Bill on this one :P


... carry on ...

Has anybody tried the new basalt fibre that is available? Its supposed to be much cheaper than carbon..

http://www.sudaglass.com/

It does look to be a little stronger than fiberglass but it's density is higher so it's heavier than fiberglass.

Thanks for the support Poohbah.

Again Wouter is mixing his arguements because he has argued himself into a corner over the macro economics of carbon fiber.

What he's really arguing against is anything thats not in support of his class, f16. So, he argues against Acats, carbon, availability of molds, and me.

So lets break this down.

You are quoting COMMERCIAL boatbuilders as your sources. You claim that carbon is "Impossible" to get. This is not true. Go to Jamestown distributors and buy some. Or I'll send you some as proof. Dont worry it wont hurt you. Its not scary.

What is true is that the COMMERCIAL boat builders are finding it hard to get the specific weaves, in the specific WIEGHTS that they want at the prices they are used to, in BULK rolls. Just because I'm a nice guy I'll cut you some slack on this point, they probably said, "Geez, carbon is impossible to find these days." But it was just an expression, dont take these things literally Wouter.

But again our discussion centered around my HOMEBUILT project. Oops, hey I only need 6 sq meters per hull. Not a 100yrds roll for my next 12 boats. Do I really need to go find 3 sources for 12 sq meters to prove my point?

Hey, I'm not lying - go to Jamestown distributors and buy some carbon, its available from a local distributor. What no local distributor next to the tulip farm? Try around the corner from the wooden shoe guy, or next to the windmill.

In the longer term, the supply shortage of carbon fiber and the airline industry adoption is a good thing for us. Dupont, Dow, BASF, and a bunch of other BILLION dollar companies are ramping up production to meet the demand. So in the short term carbon will be more expensive and small COMMERCIAL boat builders will find it hard to get, but in the long run, production will increase to meet demand, supply will increase, and prices will come down. This is what we do in the US, its called capitalism and it works.

Dont worry be happy Wouter, the future is carbon, not plywood.

By the way the Acat fleet in the US is growing like a weed.

40 boats at the winter regatta, with some unbelievalble talent.

Whats the F16 class doing? How many boats in the US? Any Olympic silver medalist showing up at your F16 regatta's?

No?, keep trying, maybe someday.

Sorry Bitch

quality post Bill. Way to stoke the embers

When I was talking to Kevin about buying that carbon tornado, I asked him why he built it, and to paraphrase, this was his response:

"Because it would be fast, and I wanted to prove to Marstrom [a commercial builder] that you could build something using higher tech materials for less than what they say it costs them to build their middle-tech T."

His selling price is evidence of his success in proving that statement.

Gøran Marstrøms T isn't what I would call middle tech. It's pre-preg S glass+nomex+foam baked in an autoclave. The only difference from what I assume you mean by a high-tech building process is the fibers used.

Put the top Tornado sailors on a well buildt plywood Tornado with the same equipment/beams as the rest, and I would be surprised if they did worse than usual. That would be a _very_ interesting test btw!

Often it's not really the technology and money available, but the persons behind it. Just look at Burt Rutan.

I bet Kevin wanted a carbon T because CARBON IS COOL!!!!

Take that Wouter!

Marstrom's stuff is awesome, I havent gotten over my intense desire for a $3k Marstrom T snuffer,,,, because ITS CARBON!!!

HEHEHEHEHEHEHEHEHEHEHHEHHEHEHEHHEHEHEHE!!!

YEAH BABY!!!!

HEY WOUTER, WHY DOESNT MARSTROM USE PLYWOOD TO MAKE THEIR SNUFFERS?


BECAUSE THAT WOULD SUCK!

Wow - wouldn't that be cool??? A snuffer that actually SUCKED!!!!

JW - I think thats a discussion best left for other forums. It could quickly get out of hand.

Waaaay heavier. Basalt is a mafic - composed primarily of pyroxene and calc-feldspar with olivine and amphibole. Cheap and abundant, sure... but heavy, man... totally heavy.

I'm patient.

I recall you were just as passionate, if not defensive, about the 18HT class some time ago.

I was a bitch, a luny, a moron and what not else according to you back then. I had a "thing" for the 18HT class and didn't know diddly. You guys would show me wrong in no unmistakeable terms.

Heard the same arguments back then as you are using now, including the various "I'm/we're doing great and much better then you timber boat sailors" accusations. Ohh, you were on "THE boat of the future" and it would blow all others away and to top it off it was full of bleeding egde technology for only a nickle and dime.

It was bleeding alright. To death. As I predicted.

Either that or "The Future" lasted alot shorter then we all expected.

I'm as patient now as I was back then.

Now shall we take this off-line, so we don't ruin other peoples day with this pissing contest ?

Wouter

{silence} {cricket noise}

Please don't

its very entertaining.

I agree, that's what we're all here to read....

Wouter,
Bringing up the HT. Is that all you got? Classic Wouter, deflect, distract, twist the arguement until it suits your needs.

Bimare sold 45 boats in the US. They are still here and still being sailed. And they are still fast. I love mine. Its getting a new main and a new spin this year. I've made my peace with the hollow daggers and the bad rudder system.

You are being patient for what exactly? Please spell it out for me?

Are you being patient for that worldwide shortage of carbon and the subsequent demise of the Aclass? Or that every 2 up spin sailer will suddenly trash their f18 and get a f16? Or that all the single handed sailors will shun the Acat in favor of a spin boat? Or that cold molding will come back in vogue? Or that tortured ply will become the hottest thing on the planet?

None of those seem likely.

Please fill us in.

And no, I dont want to take it offline.

I will, however drop this arguement if you will, but I am certain you wont let me have the last word.

Bill

Well I don't have a dog in the fight... but FYI,

Kevin Cook, one of our local boat bulders just told the T class web site that indeed "there is a world wide shortage of carbon cloth and it sucks for boat builders"

I also know that George Saunders who has bult many an Int Canoe is completing his A boat using the Steve Clark molds but I don't know what his costs are... He has all of the tooling and years of experieince needed to make the boat and it's supposedly under weight and just lovely.

Lars Guck told me that he wouldn't build one AND he is a boat builder and that I should not even consider building unless I was prepared to build two or three so that I would get it right in the end.

So... these are just honest opinions and observations...

Wouter:

I'm very interested in ply/epoxy construction, but I need to digest this information in order to formulate rational questions. Frankly, my concerns are more philosophical than technical at this point. Thanks for your time, I'll be in touch.

Checked the photos on the IC site--nice looking project, Bill! I wish I had the guts to dive in like that.

I have this theory about building your own boat. The chemical fumes are mind altering leading to personality changes - including a compulsive desire to argue on the inter-web.

I suspect that carbon and ply produce similiar effects after long term exposure...or perhaps the epoxy resin is the common denominator.

For evidence I present Bill, Wouter and Darryl.

Bill,
Do you have a photo of your A.
I'd be interesyed to see it/ you can send it via private message if you would prefer. Appreciate a pic either way.

Thanks,
Phill

Building pics can be viewed here:

http://www.intcanoe.us/mygallery/index.asp?CatID=32&Submit=Show&UserID=&offset=0

Bill,

Steve Clark talked about doing moulds for a 'hamburger-lovers' A-cat. I.e. adding some bouancy so the platform could carry a heavier sailor. Do you know more about this, or was it a rumour?

Rolf,
Thanks.
Have you seen any pics of it all put together.
Regards,
Phill
PS:-I just like looking at other peoples boat pics.

Phill,

havent seen any photos of it assembled, yet.
I hope Bill will shoot some when done and post an in-depth report or write an article for "Catamaran Sailor".

Rolf,

You are correct, the DK17 was designed for the larger A cat sailor. DK for Dirk Kramers, 17th revision of the design.

Quote from (email) Steve Clark "Dirk Kramers and I have been talking this for some time.... Both of us weigh more than 200 and felt that there was something that would work better for super sized individuals. ....it is Flyer or A2 in general appearance, but, most significantly, it has more volume high in the stern. This should help the boat from squatting too much as we go wild. On my Flyer, it is rare that I can sit far enough forward in moderate air..."

George Sanders is a larger guy, I'm probably the smallest of the bunch at 190lb.

The reason I jumped into this thread was that Dave Snell said he was 210lbs.

Bill

photo 1

photo 2

photo 3

Photo 4 - this is another shot of my high tech wet sanding area.

Wouter et al;

I just sent this as part of a private message:

" My biggest problem has always been working with epoxy. I'm not good at it! I get the stuff every where, use too much on the wood and end up with a lot of wa$te! My clean-up time is MUCH greater than it should be. If you know of a good book that might help me with these problems, that would be VERY MUCH APPRECIATED!"

Also, it occurs to me that I'm not looking for a boat with the greatest performance. For me the criteria are:

1. Single handed

2. Light weight, for ease of movement on the beach

3. Relatively durable and inexpensive with good performance.

In my memory, the H 16 is my favorite boat, probably because it was my first cat! I still find that level of performance fully acceptable! For me, the boat was a hoot!

There is something to be said for the H16, easy, simple, durable. My Dart 16 was like that.

As far as working with epoxy goes, I find that the more preparation you do, the better off you are. So, make sure you have plastic or some other means to catch drips, areas that you dont want to get epoxy on, you tape, or cover with plastic, wax, mclube, packing tape, etc.


Another good idea is to cover your the area you are working on with peel ply, its a nylon fabric that helps control the surface and soaks up any excess epoxy. Plus when the epoxy cures, you merely rip off the peel ply and you take the blush with it, and it leaves a nice textured surface, so no sanding.

On the first hull I pulled off the peel ply before I glued the hulls together and the drips ran down the sides of the hulls, which needed to be sanded off. On the second hull, I left the peel ply on, and then the drips came off when I pulled off the peel ply.

so if you use this peel ply stuff, you don't have to do as much sanding between layers?

" peel ply" Fantastic! Where can I get some!?
Also, you are dead right about the prep., the lack of which is my worst sin!

yes, no sanding between layers.

Peel ply allows the epoxy to soak thru, so the blush rises to the surface, the peel ply rips it off leaving a surface free of blush rough enough for a second coat.

check
www.fibreglast.com
www.jamestowndistributors.com
http://www.jamestowndistributors.com/product;part;37897;process;search;ID;,Fiberglass,Vacuum.Bagging.Supplies
http://www.nfgsales.com/peel.htm

Thanks for the updated photos Bill, looks awesome! Looking forward to see it again when painted and rigged.

I haven't used peelply while working with ply/wood, but for vacuum bagging it is a 'must have'. Good fiberglass shops will have it, most who carry WEST system epoxy can also get it.

I have heard about people using regular lightweight nylon as peel, but I dont know how advisabl that would be.

Bill;

Thanks for the info!

Bill,

Here is a silly question for you. Why didn't you spray the molds with gelcoat so that you could pull the hulls from the molds and have a finished product? Were the molds somewhat imperfect where you have to do sanding anyway on the outside?

Just wondering?

Mike Hill

Bill,
The boat looks great. I can't help but notice that the hull shape resembles my Dart 18...upsidedown.

Mike,
The molds were perfect, polished smooth as glass, but I had no experience spraying gelcoat so I didnt do it.

At the time, I was looking to pull hulls out as quickly as possible and decided I would worry about it later.

For a brief moment I toyed with wood veneer, http://www.rockler.com/rockler/images/Walnut-1.jpg
and also toyed with leaving it clear coated carbon, but was talked out of both ideas because epoxy softens when it gets too hot and both finishes would have gotten hot in the summer sun.

My thought was that the wood veneer would actually add strenght to the hull as well as provide a finished surface. But then the wood veneer would have to be clear coated, and that would add weight, so I discarded that idea.

Carbon spreaders - so light that they dont even register on my scale.

The alternative was Proctor spreaders at 1.3lbs

So are you going to awlgrip it now? If so what color? I congratulate you on doing something like this. I also loved your caption's sense of humor. I wish I had access to this kind of knowledge. I've often thought about doing a project boat.

Mike Hill

carbon mid boom sheeting setup with a modified ronstan rachet block.

modified Flyer mast base - I found the round stock in the parking lot at Sail Newport, it had been run over on one end and left for trash. I kept it, cut off the broken end and gave it a new life as a rotator arm.

For those of us who have never sailed an A cat, can someone try to compare an A's performance to a Hobie 17 or other similar boat? And, how much better is a modern boat in performance of an older wooden A cat?

Bill are your spreaders at a fixed "spreader rake"? It doesn't look adjustable to me??

Mike

Mike,
Interlux Perfection for the top coat. The color I got was called snow white - its available at West Marine.
http://www.yachtpaint.com/usa/

System Three WRU-LPU for the clear parts, beams, boom, tiller connector.
http://www.systemthree.com/p_wr_lpu.asp

Other sources I used:
Mas Epoxy for the hulls http://www.masepoxies.com/
Forte Beams http://www.forterts.com/
Kinder tramp http://www.kinder-industries.com/index.asp
Hall Spar http://www.hallspars.com/AboutHall/index.htm
Flyer Rudders and mast base - Goodall
1/4" Corecell foam for hulls and bulkheads http://www.noahsmarine.com/
Proset to glue the hulls together and glue the beams down http://www.prosetepoxy.com/adhesive.html
Delrin for mast compression fitting and spreader ends www.mcmastercarr.com
Vacuum bag film and peel ply http://www.decomp.com/prodlist.htm

Dont congratulate me until I'm sure it doesnt sink.

A Hobie 17 weighs about 320 lbs. An A-Cat should weigh about 165 lbs. When I sailed the A-Cat what I immediately understood, because I could feel it, was that the boat weighs less than I do. You really feel everything on the boat. Every movement you make goes through the boat.

Image riding a beach cruiser bicycle of about 40 lbs. Then get on a racing bicycle at just under 20 lbs. The reaction and acceleration are the first things that you will notice. That is a pretty good comparison.

I have not seen too many Hobie 17s doing the wild thing downwind. On an A-Cat that is your first concern going around the weather mark. "Can it fly?" and if so "Do I lose too much real estate to make up in speed?"

The Hobie 17 is a nice one-design racer. I do not know the areas that are really big on racing them right now. They had a good number at the Nationals so I am sure there are places. Here, on the West Coast, there are not many of them showing up to regattas.

Price wise a used 17 is really cheap. A used A-Cat is $6,000 to $12,000 maybe more (ie. not cheap), and that depends on competitiveness.

A Cat is a very easy boat to set up alone. That includes pushing it around soft sand. Hobie 17 at the weight of a Hobie 16 may take some help getting around the beach and on the trialer.

Later,
Dan

Is it just an optical illusion or do these float in mid-air too?

Mike,
Ben Hall has fixed sweep carbon spreaders, and he is/was the north american champ, so I'm sure it will work for me. Ben advised me to use 60mm of sweep, and the current thinking is 450mm long, the A2 spreaders are 500mm long, but then you risk hitting the shrouds with our spreaders.

I made a simple jig so that these spreaders were at 60mm of sweep at 450mm long. See the photo. I also added a very unscientific upward angle (dihedral angle) of a 1.5" over the 450mm, so that they would be more level once the mast was racked back.

The trade off in weight was worth giving up the adjustability. Plus, if I really need to adjust them I can always just "adjust" them with my dremel tool. I can pop out the delrin end and modify them pretty easily.

From what I understand the only guy that adjusts his spreaders frequently is Lars Guck, I'm probably not going to be adjusting them anyway, so I'm not worried about it. I'm going with fixed diamond wires, as opposed to adjustable diamonds, so I think it will be ok.

Plus the proctor spreaders are $225 once you include shipping, without the mast brackets, and these worked out to be much less cost and much less weight.

Dan,

You're not kidding! This, along with loss of beach access, is what got me away from beach cats!

Any guess as to the differences in speed?

Actually, most 17's are heavier than what Dan's talking about. Class minimum is 340#; most weigh above 350#.

They are good sized fleets of 17's on the upper Atlantic Coast, the middle of the country and in the Pacific Northwest.

An A-cat will smoke a H-17 around the buoys with the exception of upwind in blow. Trapezing from the wings on a 17 allow the rig to carry a lot more power than trapezing from the hulls on an A.

The H-17 is a pig off the wind. Just not enough sail area. Then again, it's durable as hell and the only boat I'd want to be on when it's blowing a steady 25. They're realatively cheap, too. A brand new one is only $10K. Used ones go for $2K-$4K, depending on condition.

Pete,
Now you've gone and opened up a can of worms asking about speed. Hopefully I wont get flamed for this.

I'll try to be as fair as I can here so I dont start something.

What I've seen is that an Acat is untouchable upwind, up to the point that you start breaking stuff, like 18knts-20knts wind speed. Downwind the acat goes "wild" and sails off the wind fast but not very deep. Wild is a downwind reach flying a hull. Most modern spin boats, F18, I20, F16, HT, etc can go deeper and will beat an acat dead downwind. But in terms of straight line speed, an acat is about even with a F18 or F18HT but the angles are differient. I have been out on my HT and an acat has kept pace with me on a reach and I had my spin up. I was sailing higher with a spin than you would in a race, and so was the acat, but we were about even, it was an interesting comparison. The acat has 14sq m main and I had up 40sq (main and spin), so that should give you an idea of the efficiency of the A.

Now in a race, the acat is still fast. Peter Johnstone came in second two years ago on an XJ, in one of the round Jamestown races. Charlie Barmonde and Ben Burley won the race on an i20 and I came in third on the HT.

Peter spanked everyone to the weather mark and then Charlie passed him down wind on his first or second jibe, because Charlie was going to much deeper, I passed Peter on about my third jibe and then I crashed, so Peter was able to pass us and we never saw him back upwind.

What Peter J/Landy/ and others were advocating is adding a spin to the acat, but that hasnt gained momentum. The class has been pretty vocal about the simplicity of the A and the easy of set up, etc. Adding a spin would take something away from the simplicity. Plus most A's are sailed in one design fleets, so it doesnt really matter the your vmg isnt as good as a spin boat, all of the other A's are sailing similiar downwind angles.

The other thing about the A is that it has a huge amount of development in the class focused on sails, rigs, and tuning. The only other boat with that much attention paid to it in rig/sail development and tuning is the Tornado. So you get very efficient sails, and very efficient rigs, and lots of used/spare sails. Good news/bad news here, you will be sailing against very talented guys with the latest technology and new sails, but I think thats a great way to become a better sailor.

Plus I like the fact that I can sail it alone, without crew, rig it in 15mins, move it around easily by myself, use beachwheels and not have to fool with dunking a trailer.

Thanks Bill, Matt et al:



Amen to that!

Pete:

I have a 17. I started this thread (Doug not Dave Snell), because I am thinking of getting an A2. We have a VERY good A cat fleet out of Houston Yacht Club in Texas. The 17 is a GREAT boat. Look at a lot of the regattas in High Portsmouth class, the rating is great and the boat often finishes at the top. As for moving it single handed, with beach wheels it is not a problem. Little tricky getting on the wheels as they want to roll the cradles under. Just put the rudders on BEFORE you take it off the trailer. Only problem is getting mast raised. You need a second person. I an going to try putting boat on backwards with stern on the rollers. Use the front mast support on trailer to hold mast. I think once the mast is raised the angle leaning forward will hold it up while I attach the bridle. It is a fun boat. And as Mat said, above 20 the ONLY good single handed boat.

Doug Snell
Hobie 17
Hope to be A2
www.tcdyc.com

Doug,
Sorry for hijacking your thread and then calling you the wrong name.

If you are ever in CT look me up, I'll let you take the DK17 for a spin. Or bring your new A2 with you and we can do some training.

Bill

Doug:

I sold my 17 a couple years back and bought the Tiki http://www.wharram.com/ . The 17 was a great boat, but getting to the beach here is all but impossible! My intention with the A cat is travel; down to the Keys, up the Gulf, maybe even New England and Texas.

Also, sailing anything above 20 is just too much work!

The Area D Alter Cup Eliminations last year were interesting as we had a couple of competitive A-class sailors lined up against some good folks sailing spinnaker boats (Bob Curry on an I-17R, Brian Lambert on the CFR-20, Kirk Newkirk on the Tiger, Harry Newkirk on an I-20).

Upwind, the A-boats typically were the fastest, faster than even the CFR-20. Conditions for the event were 10-12 on the first day and 5-7 on the second day. Downwind, the A-cats were never as deep as any of the spinnaker boats whether in wild or mild mode. We were going very close to the same speed forward as the I-20's but not as deep when we were flying a hull downwind. The CFR-20 was faster forward and deeper all the time. We were probably even with the F-18's speed wise also again when flying a hull. I don't think the F-18's sailed quite as deep as the I-20 but they still had a faster downwind VMG than the A-cat. I thought we would be about even downwind VMG with the I-17R but Curry was catching me downwind. The corrected times between Curry, myself, and the top I-20's were very close in most of the races. The CFR was killing everyone on corrected in most of the races. The top A-cat was consistently correcting out on the F-18's.

It'll be interesting to see if the data from this event contributes to any adjustments to current ratings in the future.

Regarding the H-17, I've never sailed one but I can see where the relatively lower aspect rig combined with the wings can make this boat a giant killer in big breeze. First think about the righting moment upwind and then think about how being on the aft corner of the wing downwind can really lift the leeward bow up in a big blow. When it's approaching our wind limit in the A-cats (22 knots), you'll see most of the sailors max position aft on the windward hull to get maximum leverage on the leeward bow.

A-cats are surprisingly fast upwind in a blow. With the new twisty big head sail designs, they depower extremely well. In a fleet of 20' and under beach cats, I think only the Tornado and M-20 would be faster upwind. At the 2004 Slip To Ship distance race, we had a 7 mile beat in 12-14 knots of breeze. I was going higher and slightly faster upwind than both well sailed I-20's and a well sailed Nacra 6.0 NA. Only Dennis Palin on his carbon 200 lb 18 square meter beat me to Ship Island and it was only by about 1 minute. I think the sail/rig on the A-cat is continuing to evolve in terms of performance while the rigs and sails on the other boats have not progressed much (pin head sail on the Nacra, same sail cut on the I-20 for the last few years).

All of the above is based upon my own race observations.

Bob Hodges
A-Class USA 230

Pete:

Check out our website and register. www.tcdyc.com I am Hobie17 there. If you ever get to Texas, give me a shout. There is a REAL good group of A cats at HYC that Bob sails with.

Good Sailing

Doug Snell
Hobie 17
Soon to be Nacra A2
www.tcdyc.com
281-326-2702

Bob: Since you mention heavy air, I'd like to add my two cents about performance. I've sailed the H 17 in some fairly heavy air and never noticed any attempt by the boat to pitch-pole or even submerge. The few times I did stuff the bow, it came right back up, almost of it's own accord. Of course my weight was 210! I'm a little leary of the small volume I'm seeing on the new A cat bows.

I might have to take issue with that claim! (I'm talking about the Square, btw)

I think there are a lot of boats better than the Hobie 17, I just think it is a good cheap single handed boat, and has a GREAT handicap rating !!! On corrected time it does VERY well ! And Andrew is right 18 sq is SWEET boat, Palin is deadly on it. What hurts it is having to take it apart or have a tilt trailer. One reason I want A2 is fleet at HYC and I will soon have the money to spare.

Doug Snell

I'll finish this post later...

WOuter

Wouter;

In a past message I mentioned philosophical concerns. Specifically, I miss the old Hobie days when almost everyone sailed the 16. It was a lot of fun! Here in Florida beach sailing is almost dead because of lack of beach access. That is a socio-political problem, has nothing to do with boats.

Currently, there are 3 A cat regattas scheduled within a short drive from my home, and others, out of state that are still close enough to be considered.

The A cat dynamic that impresses me most has nothing to do with the boat, it's the people. The January regatta down in the Keys had over 40 participants. I would guess that was the first class regatta of that size in over 15 years! I'm talking about Florida of course because that's where I live, that's my world!

A cats are a happenin' thing! It's not the boat, it's the people.

That's true with just about every class or sport.

How can I best reply to this ?

It is not ONLY about the people either.

For example, I know a good number of sailor who went with the F18 beause it was "happening !", Some of them have now downgraded (as it is called) to a smaller and more versatile design.

A given design can be the best thing since sliced bread but if it doesn't fit nicely to ones dominant use then it is NOT the right boat. No matter how good the people around it are. As a matter of fact there is no "best boat" out there, only boats that fit a particular personal usage best.

It is a great one-liner, but not one that holds a knock-out punch.

Many people have forgotten that I was actually at the cradle of the A-cat growth in the USA. Years ago I was the one who pushed the idea of importing A-cat boats from Europe to the USA back then. Chip Zenke finally got the deal and shipped the container of Bim 2000 and since then the A-cat class has been growing. It is sort of pitty that so many people have such short memories and try to make everything I say as some sort of hate speak. I guess this is just the way it goes in life.

But I do know very well, what the A-cats are and what they are not. In the end the only thing that matters is whether a type is the right one for you and will give you plenty of enjoyment. This point was crucial why I didn't got into the A-cat class personally and why I did get involved into the F16 class. Some will claim that illogical arguments or feelings were the cause of this but they are incorrect. The design simply did not furfill my requirements. I think each must think through this choice thoroughly and without being influenced by "40 boat events" and "happening" selling points. Because they are just that selling points. No-one buys a boat for "3 events per year" and a single "40 boat fleet" doesn't carry much weight if the rest of the year you will be the odd one out in your local area. In the 90 % of the year that you are not at a class event, the direct enjoyment of sailing the boat itself (as in "about the boat") will be heaps more important. In addition to this, by far most of the Florida events are distance races or open class events without a big A-cat presence. That 40 boat event is certainly spectacular, no doubt about it, but it is only one event as an event like tradewinds saw none. This is not a jab at the A-cat class or the A-cat boat, but it will have to be factored in, in our decision making.


So I want to focus on your intended use, earlier you wrote :





The three points of -3- are in direct conflict with each other. Including 2 : the requirement for being lightweight makes the criterium even more difficult. But lets put these down as your wish list. Now focus on your "how will I use it list".

Were do you sail most. Is it a soft sandy beach, do you need to go through a surf, do you want to take somebody along now and then, do you have club races locally, what are your buddies sailing, what are your predominate winds, how skilled are you in beach catamaran sailing, will you be parking the boat on the beach or on your law or are you a trailer sailor ? Are you a recreational sailor or are you looking to become a serious racer. How much are you willing to spend ? Things like that.

Why are these important ? For example ; lightweight high performance boats don't really like to be run up the beach when you have just cleared the surf. Lightweight carbon masts/beams don't like beach side (mast-up) storage or high influx of UV radiation. Extremely efficient catamaran designs have a narrow groove of optimal performance, without sufficient sailing skill you will have a hard time making the boat go; especially downwind. Lightweight boats need to be anchored down very well or a large gust will blow them over; even under mast alone. It is no fun sailing a non spinnaker boat when all your buddies have spi boats. Not all boats will allows you to bring somebody along. When the winds are high in your typically area then high performance boats require a certain minimum level of skill to be handled. Excetera

I'm saying all this will several boat types in my mind. I'm sailing a lightweight high performance beach catamaran myself. One with the same rating as the A's and I can tell you that all these things DO matter alot.

Among others I have both owned a Prindle 16 and F16 and I've used them both much in the way you decribed in your list. From my experience so far I can tell you that the Prindle 16 was the best bang for the buck and alot me to solo sail alot; it was stirdy and very inexpensive while maintaining a good performance (especially when singlehanded). I could run it up the beach or sail it into collisions without a worry. The reasons why I'm now more happy with my F16, despite being more fragile, alot more expensive and requiring generally more care, is because it fills my more serious racing requirements better as well as my personal desire for spinnaker sailing. I race alot in local club races that sees nearly only spinnaker boats.

You should look at your own wish and usage list in the same way. It can well turn out that a less sophisticate design will be much more your thing.

Remember nothing is for free.

You can certainly have a high performance and highly efficient cat but your required care will mirror the same "high" level, not to mention the "high expenses".

Compare it to this. Everybody wants to have a most slim, most adventurous and most beautyful woman (wife), but how many of us are really into investing the required time, money and headaches to keep her.

It is never "about the people" as much as it is never about "The boat"

It is always about the combo of these two and the criterium called prospected usage.


Wouter

I'll profess that it's rare that I make to the end of one of your posts - but this portion did catch my eye. So what's next? I'm expecting to hear that you were at the "cradle of the invention of the internet". C'mon Wout - it takes more than a couple of posts on a website to take credit for growing a class in another country.

Wouter:

Let me try and rephrase:

First I didn't mean to imply that A cat people are better than other people. What I meant was; for what ever reason, A cat people are coming to together in numbers reminiscent of the '70s and '80s. These folks are sufficiently motivated to spend lots of money and drive long distances to sail. In my area, that is very uncommon! For instance, my home fleet scheduled a race for tomorrow which has been scrubbed for lack of participation! During absolutely gorgeous weather!

As for my criteria; they are wholly subjective and I don't expect anyone to value them more than any other personal opinion.

To explain further, the Hobie Wave and Sunfish also meet those criteria, but there is not, locally, the number of participants that the A cats have. Numbers of participants is matter of importance to me, subjectively.

I suspect that for most people, the "best" boat is the one the have now, and will only be surpassed by the one they have next!

Allow me to add some comments to those of Bill. I wish to underline "ADD" here




What the A-cat gains upwind it looses downwind with respect to other modern designs. Especially sailing the A-cat well downwind is a technique that requires considerable skill. Being a highly efficient as well cat rigged design its optimal performance groove is narrow, as with most high develloped boats. World champion A-cat Glenn Ashby described it as "you are either going really fast or really slow". In trapezing conditions the A-cat is certainly touchable upwind. In marginal trapeze and sub trapeze conditions it does have a noticeable egde upwind.





On a reach, nearly all boats are equally fast (straight line speed). I've seen Hobie 16's and A-cats runs together with a good mix of F18's, F20's and others along side them.

And indeed, the course angle are making the difference. Better pointing angle helps the A-cat upwind but the worse angles downwind hold it back. On a reach there are no angles.






How about the efficiency of the Hobie 16 ? On most reaches it would have been right beside you. Reaches are bad comparisons.






The spi setups are a trade off. Both in setup/enjoyment and pointing angles/speed. You point upwind lower with a spi setup but win back alot more on the downwinds. It takes more time to set up the spi but spi sailing is a rather easily mastered speed booster downwind. Spinnaker sailing is a whole new dimension to cat sailing. When you think you have seen it all then try singlehanded spinnaker sailing. It is a bloody fine rush.





Sorry guys, I can't agree with that.

Formula 18 sees alot of development and deserves a place in the listing. It may well even see more development in certain parts then the Tornado. Think hulls, spinnaker and boards. All regulated in great detail, and thus heavily limited, in the Tornado class. Wiht respect to the A-cats. Good development in masts and boards, apart from that the A-cat has not shown much development since the introduction of the flyer hull shape 10 years ago. F18's have seen much more development in other area's. Lets not forget that developping a spinnaker is something the A-cats are NOT doing, same for jibs and even beams. Yes I said beams. A-cats solution to everything is carbon and glue. F18 and other classes are currently developping non-carbon and non-glued beams that result in same performance or better. In the way of sails, F18 is doing its own development independent of the A-cats now.

Certainly in the past the A-cat was THE development class, but since the introduction of the Formula classes the A-cat has been losing significant amounts of this status. Especially now that A-cat class outlaws full foiling and even angle boards beyond any significant angle. Also developments like T-foil rudders have been done fully outside of the A-cat class.

The A-cat class is still a very interesting development class but since the late 90's it has had to accept other classes leveling with her.




Efficiency is great fun but the name of the game is reaching the finish line first. Drawback of efficient rigs is that their narrow optimal groove demands higher levels of skill to be put into speed and keep it there. Before I get flamed by the A-cat guys, YES, this drawback is noticeable in other efficient rigs as well (incl. F16's)

Spinnakers and jibs are great aids to get maximum performance out of a design without high levels of skill. The stalling of the rig (with these) is more gradual and/or much more predictable.

Regards,

Wouter

Once you have seen a A cat fly across the water some of us just want one BAD !!!!!

No one wants to say one boat is better than the other. That is why they make so many different kinds. You are free to choose the one you want. No one makes you get there boat. Wouter you have done a great job with the F16. I just want to make a point that in this wonder world we live in today. MOST of us have the God given free will to decide WHCH ONE we want. That is the beauty of free will!!

Pete join our site and forum. Yahoo Beachcats too.

Doug Snell
Hobie 17
Soon to be Nacra A2
www.tcdyc.com

Wouter:

I do expect to buy an A cat, and I don't plan to sail at more than 3-6 regattas per year. Certainly I plan to practice but my casual sailing will be on my Tiki.

I've reexamined the decision points you suggest, but didn't find any that had not already been considered in establishing my own, subjective, criteria for owning a boat.

Maybe I should explicetly remind everybody that I've never written anywhere that anybody (or somebody) should NOT get an A-cat !

It is a great looking boat and class. I think I've been pretty clear on that.

Just to prevent any misunderstandings

Wouter

Should have read "... one of the persons at the cradle ..." and there weren't that many back then as you remember. Please remember that I was actually composing a group container deal with sailors like Gordon Isco, Rob Lyman and some others whose names don't come to my mind right now. All of them got A-cats then, through Chip Zenke eventually. I've did a little more then stand on the sidelines back then, Jake. I think I'm allowed to credit myself with being part of that beginning. A modest part indeed, I stand corrected on that, but part nonetheless.

Wouter

I wish you best of luck and enjoyment with your new boat.

Wouter

Ha!!!! Truce guys. Enough!!!!

Lets get back to why we are all in this.

The beauty of sailing a cat in a big blow

The fun of partying with friends.

And just being outside in the sun!!

Doug Snell
Hobie 17
Soon to be Nacra A2
www.tcdyc.com

Doug; So why the Nacra over the Bimare?

1. I like the look of the boat. It flys. Glaser Sails has experience building sail based on the boat and your weight.

2. It is a US company.

3. There are local hotshots here that have them to help me learn the boat.

4. Local hotshot is 250 lbs and flys. If he can i can, just have to learn the boat and PRACTICE PRACTICE PRACTICE.

Doug

Sounds good to me!

Pete:

Send me a email link

Doug
dsnell4@houston.rr.com

you have all got it wrong guys the best boat hasn't been built yet, its still floating around in the mind of a designer who probably won't be born for several centuries yet.

No doubt!

Wouter,
Thanks for your input.



I couldnt agree more.

Bill

no no no no NO NO NO!

We can't agree!

Thats no fun!

The one setup I saw for the Marstrom had holes in the hulls for the poles. I am not to keen on doing this to a $22,000 boat!! How do others feel about this?

Doug

Eh, I have holes in my $2200 Prindle for the spinnaker rig, and did in my $5500 Nacra Uni as well - sailed (and sold) the boat with 'em covered in duct tape, too! The N-20, I think, dispenses with the holes. Ask me in two weeks, when I finally get to see the boat!

Also, Marstrom is the only A-cat to actively promote running spinnakers on their boats. Terry Richardson, in MS, is getting the rig, and I know there are several Marstroms in TX as well.

Sail fast!

PS: New thread? for spins on A's?

Andreew:

Start the thread. I'll join in. Are you going to Deep South? Still owe you far glasses.

Doug

theres already a thread for spins on A cats.

Some crazy dude in Europe took on board video of it.

Andrew:

I think I-20 uses wires. Start the new thread, I 'll join in.
Are you going to Deep South? Still owe you for glasses.

Doug

To recap previous comments:
1. H-17 is a true one design, no changes since it was introduced 20 years ago.
2. Low cost, less than one half of the A, for new, and even more savings for a used one.
3. Very rugged, and easy to repair.
4. Will handle high winds, and comes alive over 20.
5. Easy to set up, and launch.

Do not understand the comments about problems single handling. I step my mast while on the trailer, and launch, reload, by myself all the time. Pulley at front of trailer, with line to trap line to assist mast up and down. Small hand winch on trailer, at cross bar stop to pull boat out, back on trailer. Piece of cake, even in the dark.

Caleb Tarleton

Caleb;

My biggest problem was rolling the boat around in very soft beach sand. Because set-up areas are often far removed from launching areas, this can be very burdensome. The problem is political. In Florida, politicians just don't like beach cats! I have no idea why!! I loved my 17, absent these problems I'd still be sailing it.

Sorry Jake, but ol Wouter is telling a true story on this thread. I hereby corroborate that Wouter and I and a couple of others tried to figure out how get a load of nearly new A-cats together in the Netherlands. Wouter was willing to help, to be shipped here to Florida- 5 years ago. It looked like it might work for some Bimares and oddments, then the euro went up.

Maybe over there, They love us over here.

Mike;

Don't rub it in! I practically have to rent a motel room to get to the beach, which is why I made that remark to Wouter about "...it's the people."

The name of the game here is renting motel rooms and you need a relatively large group to make it worthwhile.

Btw, I haven't been up your way in years, are you guys still active, any room for A cats? How 'bout my Tiki!?

Pete:

If you have trouble with soft sand, build you some of these. They will cost you less than $100 without cradles. $200 with. Just don;t drill the other extra holes in them. Use butter tops for washers and put some silicone around connectors and washer. You could also use some old carpet are water pipe insulation with wire ties.

Doug

http://www.geocities.com/mec_coleman/tip13.htm

Pete,

We have a group of people that are there almost every weekend. The fleet has a race every month. We are very forunate to have the causeway. I haven't seen a Tiki 21, any Pic's

This boat was designed in 1985(?) by James Wharram, ply/epoxy construction, top speed 12 knots in 20+ wind. Great boat for those of us who feel that life is good at 6 knots!
http://www.wharram.com/tiki_photos/show_photo.php?id=5&start=1&images=12

Doug


Dont be such a sissy, take out the dremel tool, and start cutting. I clearly remember Tradeinds 2004, listening to Ben Hall discussing how he cut the bows off his Waterrat and attached some other bows. I thought he was completely nuts. But now, I think that its perfectly normal. Its very liberating once you figure out how to mix the goo and fabric and have it be whole again.

The real question is on the A2, DK17 type bows, where to you attach the spin wires or poles? It doesnt have a obvious point to attach to.

Bill

Unless they come up with some kind of mounting system, I will probably just use my 17 when I want more power or to go racing handicap. I have a 190 sq ft Pentex reacher for it to go with the Pentex squaretop main.

Doug

Doug:

Is an A cat gonna have enough "zip" for you! I had a reacher on my 17 and it was a rocket!

Pete:

Have you ever seen an A fly!!! Think about it. 165 lbs? 30 foot mast? 150 sq ft sail? It has got to fly. We are just trying to figure out a way to add spin to A2 without having to put holes in hulls like Haken did. I WILL nit do that to that beautiful boat. Yea the 17 with reacher is a HOOT!!! Makes Open racing fun!!!

Doug

Doug:

Nope, looking forward to it, if I can just find a boat!!

What's the basic technique? On the 17, I would start out with the mast rotation aimed at the shroud and adjust accordingly. Always kept my weight as far forward as possible even in pretty heavy air. Kept the rig kind of loosey-goosey. Helm was pretty close to neutral.

Pete:

I don't have a clue about the A. Luckily for me there is a great group at HYC here. I will just have to let them help me tweak the boat, take some GOOD notes and just get LOTS of time on the boat. Uni just takes lots of practice, no jib to help you tack. Although at 165 lbs, it should be easier.

Doug

Pete,
I have seen that type boat before. Just didn't know what the heck it was.

Mike, Is there a public ramp near the Causeway, like 5 miles?

Pete,
Semiole boat ramp is about 4-5 miles south of the Dunedin Causeway. Just north of 60 which is Clearwater Memorial causeway. I use it to launch my powerboat. Very nice ramp. Handles 8 boats at a time. The cost last year was 7 bucs a day for non-resident.

Thank ya much, you guys have a web site?

http://www.tampabaycatsailors.com/

Doug,
What about attaching the spin sticks/wires to the forestay eyes? I wonder if Haken can remove that setup and sail his A as a one design A. I dont think he can. I wouldnt want to do something I couldnt remove for A only races.

Check out how Landy rigged his boat. He used line from the bows and a pole to keep the bows in line. You could do the same thing from the forestay eyes, maybe not go all the way to the end of the pole.

Thanks i sent it to Christopher. Hard for me to do much R & D till I get boat.

Doug