Catsailor.com

Inexpensive Fast Flyer

Posted By: Dean

Inexpensive Fast Flyer - 02/07/06 02:24 PM

http://team.abnamro.com/web/show/id=111901

Click on the vid: "A Skipper Becomes..."

There is nothing that can compare to the experience of being on foils.
Posted By: Clayton

Re: Inexpensive Fast Flyer - 02/07/06 02:52 PM

Now thats cool looking! Could you put a couple of those on a cat and make it fly? Gives a whole new meaning to "Wild thing".

Clayton
Posted By: grob

Re: Inexpensive Fast Flyer - 02/07/06 03:37 PM

Quote
Now thats cool looking! Could you put a couple of those on a cat and make it fly? Gives a whole new meaning to "Wild thing".

Clayton


Yes but a trimaran seems to be the best configuration.

The Hobie trifoiler easily beat the foiling moth at the Weymouth speed trials last year.

Its a shame that both the Hobie trifoiler and the Windrider Rave have been discontinued.

Gareth
Posted By: Dean

Re: Inexpensive Fast Flyer - 02/07/06 07:00 PM

A Rave can still be ordered from the new company. Dealers are listed here:
http://www.windrider.com/

A Rave can easily hit 35mph; design limit is 45mph. The Moth can hit speeds which any cat can do but the thrill of flying is like comparing sailing a monohull to flying a hull on a cat. It's a different exhiliration; kind of like a flying carpet. A Rave can easily hit 35mph; design limit is 45mph.

A new company bought the tooling and assets for the Rave and the other Windrider tri's. A Rave can be ordered to be built. The new company was formed by Windrider enthusiasts and is located in Plymouth, Minnesota.
Posted By: bvining

Re: Inexpensive Fast Flyer - 02/07/06 09:49 PM

I want a foiler, I'm tempted by the moth, but the moth seems really hard to sail. Plus you have to tip it over to launch it and carry it on shore so as not to damage the foiling mechanism.

The Rave and Trifoiler seem way too complicated. Plus the Rave is way to heavy at 600lbs.

Have you seen the Rave's main beam up close? Its like something off a oil rig.

Heavy and complicated = not good in my book.

Someone needs to build a simplier,lighter weigh foiler that can be beached like a cat.





Posted By: Dean

Re: Inexpensive Fast Flyer - 02/08/06 01:04 AM

Actually, 600 lbs. would be a Rave-and-a-half. The Rave weighs only 400 lbs. For comparison a Melges17 scow which is a foot longer than the Rave and extremely light for it's size with carbon fiber sticks weighs 300 lbs.

The main beam is 5"o.d. made of T6061 aluminum as is the rest of the structure; the same metal found in your everyday jetliner. The entire structure has to be as light as possible but very strong to withstand the high forces on the frame and rig at foiling speeds.

The Rave's foils are retractable so it can be beached.
Posted By: Jake

Re: Inexpensive Fast Flyer - 02/08/06 03:49 AM

Get him Dean!
Posted By: sbflyer

Re: Inexpensive Fast Flyer - 02/08/06 05:23 PM

There's no doubt foiling is the craziest feeling in sailing, I took a buddy on my Rave, and he was blown away, and he got some good runs in on his first time driving. For sure the tripod arangement is easier, but outlawed in Moth class. I have seen a few cat mods with flip down foils at the bows and an additional center rudder with foil at the back. The Rave is a bit heavy, but while demoing the first time in San Diego I watched my buddy hit a sandbar at full speed, almost flip it over the bows, come back to the beach with one ama crumpled up, and by the next day the plastic had straighted itself out, so it has good real world sturdiness. One time I launched it off the back of one swell into the face of the next one, and went so far under water it was getting dark overhead, and the boat just kept on going! ( man that bilge pump is handy. The Moth with foils has to be the toughest boat in the world to sail as the tiller also twists to control the rudder foil pitch. But as noted the major drawback has got to be no surf lauching. Nothing like charging into the lineup on a big wave day...
Posted By: MauganN20

Re: Inexpensive Fast Flyer - 02/08/06 05:36 PM

Somewhat related to this topic:

I spoke to someone last summer who wanted to take the middle hull of a windrider 17 tri (non foiling version) and make a mold for a fiberglass hull out of it. Modify it by putting on a centerboard, then taking beachcat hulls and putting lifting foils on them like an Orma 60' and stick an inter20 rig on it.

Sounded crazy but I bet it would rocket.
Posted By: sbflyer

Re: Inexpensive Fast Flyer - 02/08/06 06:39 PM

I don't know, the size of the rig would probably be too much with the way the apparent wind builds. Another foiling story, you really realize how small 16' is when you are doing 30 kts and a grey whale surfaces in front of you...
Posted By: Dan_Delave

Foiling - 02/08/06 07:23 PM

The Trifoiler has a couple of things going for it. First is that the boat is a great foiling boat. Second is that Greg Ketterman designed a trailer for it. I used to test drive the boat before production and I was able to set it up alone in about 45 minutes. It is not the quickest boat to set up but with two it could get down to about 20 minutes, as I recall. The trailer had a lot to do with that. There were supports to hold things while rigging, it was a work of art.

I was hoping to see a hydrofoil catamaran by now. I saw the drawings of it and it looked really interesting. The concept was to make a 16 to 18 foot boat that no other could beat around a regular triangle course, in all wind conditions. I will have to look into the status of that.

Later,
Dan
Posted By: sbflyer

Re: Foiling - 02/09/06 02:34 AM

One problem with the Trifoiler is with the forward type sensing wands, it really doesn't like choppy conditions...
Posted By: Jake

Re: Foiling - 02/09/06 03:11 AM

How did we get here again?
Posted By: sail7seas

Re: Foiling - 02/09/06 04:12 AM

I thought the same thing until this day with 2' chop.
Anyway, it appeared to me, even with the chop extremely fast.

Attached picture 66581-a17-017S.JPG
Posted By: sail7seas

Re: Foiling - 02/09/06 04:14 AM

from 2000 H16 Worlds Guadeloupe winds 15.
I was the quickest thing out there on a choppy day off the beach.

Attached picture 66583-a17-018S.JPG
Posted By: sail7seas

Re: Foiling - 02/09/06 04:17 AM

another pic

Attached picture 66584-a17-013S.JPG
Posted By: Dean

Re: Foiling - 02/09/06 03:41 PM

Quote
How did we get here again?


Deja Vu, Jake! I fell off my chair laughing.

FOILER MISCONCEPTIONS:

1. "They only fly once in a while." Reality: They fly more often when you're not carrying freight/passenger. The amount of flying time on the water is directly proportional to the prevalence of 7-10mph available wind when singlehanding.

2. "The Rave is heavy". Reality: It weighs 400lbs. It's heavy if you forget to remove the trailer from the boat before pushing off from the beach. That weight is comparable to a lot of cats.

3. "The Tri-Foiler can't go in a chop." Reality: Look at the pics of the Hobie Tri-Foiler above in this thread. (You're welcome, Matt.) When the Rave is up on the foils, it flys above the chop. Chop don't matter until it's up to a height where only a lead mine boat would bother to tread.

4. "They take forever to setup." Reality: If forever is an hour, my workday typically runs about eight forevers. I am paid each week for forty forevers worth of work. I'm underpaid.

7. "They don't sell well." Reality: They don't sell well. The owners are a reclusive bunch, anyway, and couldn't care less after they have their baby in the garage.

14. "They're fragile." Reality: A foiler has to withstand much, much more load on the foils, rig, and frame than any other boat design. (For all that strength the weight is pretty low.) Consequently, they have to be bullet proof but inherent idiot proofing has been a problem. The foiler multihull designers have been at it since the '70's, so they're about as right as they are going to be. For many owners, the foiler was their first sailboat or first multihull. Extrapolate that scenario to it's inevitable conclusion.

18. "They're slow when not flying." Reality: With three T-foils and three hulls in the water...duh. Live with it, buy that optional A-sail, and/or get another boat to use when the wind ain't blowin'.

21. "They don't make 'em anymore." Reality: The Rave can be made by request. The TriFoiler may be, too. I dunno. Call 'em and ask them if they mind taking your money. It never hurts to ask.

Posted By: Dan_Delave

Flying Boats - 02/09/06 05:36 PM

[color:"blue"]Jake:

This thread is about flying boats. Where else are we going to go?[/color]



By the way the trifoiler has been on foils in 4 to 6 foot seas. There is a bit of a concern when you see a big swell coming at you and it is over your head. You can slow down and take it anyway you can. With 2 to 3 just keep the pedal down it works pretty nice. Refering to the pictures in Guatelope seems that the foils were not adjusted properly. I think the boat should be sitting higher out of the water. I remember thinking that when I saw it sailing. I was there but did not sail the Trifoiler.

Later,
Dan
Posted By: Jake

Re: Flying Boats - 02/09/06 06:10 PM

Quote
Jake:

This thread is about flying boats. Where else are we going to go?


I wasn't terribly clear but I was referring to the reference that foilers don't handle chop well. We beat that horse to death about 6 months ago and among other similar replies talked about some upgrades that were available for the Rave that made it handle swell and chop better than it already did. I was just trying to give Dean a chuckle.
Posted By: grob

Re: Foiling - 02/09/06 08:23 PM

Quote

21. "They don't make 'em anymore." Reality: The Rave can be made by request. The TriFoiler may be, too. I dunno. Call 'em and ask them if they mind taking your money. It never hurts to ask.



Bill thanks for putting me right on that, i've just emailed the new Rave guys
Interesting quote from a clever guy on the boat design forum
Quote
I think it's a mistake to think of foils as making a boat fast. The best use of foils is to allow a fast boat to still go fast in roughter conditions. This, again, is of more use to the small boat than the large cat.


Seems to back up number 3

Gareth
Posted By: bvining

Re: Foiling - 02/09/06 08:28 PM

Dean,

Are you saying a Rave foils in 7-10mph singlehanded?

or a Trifoiler?

I know of a Rave for sale with trailer in RI for $2500. I was under the impression they foiled in bigger winds. I saw the trailer, its well designed to minimize the setup hassle, but I would want to leave it rigged someplace if I owned it. Anyone done beach wheels for the Rave? Or does leaving it parked in the sand mess up the foiling mechanism? Could you leave it on a protected mooring?

Assuming I weigh 190lbs, when does a standard Rave start foiling? Would you consider it safe for one adult (me) and a small child, say 4 yrs old? Or does it pitchpole/crash such that it wouldnt be safe for a child?

Do you wear a helmet at 30knts? Or in the surf? can you get it airborne in the surf? What happens if you hit a shallow sandbar at speed? Will it survivie that?

What does a Rave need for upgrades? I saw a website once that showed mods done by differient owners. Something about joystick levers for manually controlling the foils. Is that required or a nice to have?

Just what I need, another boat.

Bill


Posted By: Jake

Re: Foiling - 02/09/06 08:57 PM

"nibble nibble"...I can hear the bug...and it's biting.
Posted By: dacarls

Re: Foiling - 02/09/06 09:41 PM

The Rave needs a breeze to get me up at 185 pounds- small whitecaps means 12-13 mph: then you are foiling along comfortably at say 16-17 mph. Fun tho. (til the wind drops or between puffs)
One wants to learn what one is doing properly before taking out small, breakable children. Please.
Do not hit heavy or submerged things: The first 2 demos I went to for a ride on a Rave- they were broken while I was looking at them, and I never got a ride. It took 2 more years to get a ride, so Guess how many of them I bought.

http://doranoster.com/
Look at Doran Oster's website for modifications like joysticks for the front foils. Adjustments (on the fly) of the angle of attack of the front foils are also very helpful. How do I know all this? I see Doran's Rave sitting on the beach every time we take our A-cats out sailing!
Posted By: Dean

Re: Foiling - 02/10/06 03:53 PM

Jake,
Your obviously suffering from terminal Cackalackitis: a slow, debilitating IQ degeneration. I love you anyway.
If the tide is favorable this year through East Pass for the RTI start, I'll see you there. Last year I didn't think I would be able to get my widebutt, surface friction hog through there. That would have been embarrassing.

QUESTIONS ANSWERED BELOW BUT can be continued on www.windriderforum.com

Go here for the Rave forum:
http://www.windriderforum.com/phpBB2/viewforum.php?f=4&sid=5b6bc3389bc1fb7454e31946f781cad9

Those two Raves on Lake Santa Fe belonged to the two owners who were constantly fiddling to find better ways to fly sooner in less wind. And they did albeit with more controls that replaced the automatic leveling of the trim tabs. Those two boats were constant development mules. They weren't broken; just fettled to death. Doran gave up on his boat simply because he wanted to race and the Rave owners couldn't get together often enough to do so. So, he and Hollis went to A-Cats. I also have a Melges17. That doesn't mean I've abandoned the Rave. (It means my wife wanted something to do on a boat besides enjoy the ride so we have another boat on which she can handle the spin and jib. On the Rave, ain't nothing for her do do.)

FROM THE RAVE INSTRUCTIONS MANUAL:
For a stock Rave with no "Screacher" (assym. spinnaker):
Crew Weight: 120-160 lbs.
Boat speed needed: 10-12mph
Windspeed required: 10-11 knots.
If you add the screacher (97sq.ft.), liftoff can be accomplished MUCH sooner.

Crew Weight: 160-220
Boat speed needed: 12-13mph
Windspeed required: 11-12 knots

RAVE MANUAL IN ADOBE FORMAT:
For the complete chart on weight, speed, and windpseed needed for liftoff, go to this site on the Windrider Yacht Club, Rave forum, and click on the "Sticky" near the top of the list- "Rave Manual".
http://www.windriderforum.com/phpBB2/viewforum.php?f=4&sid=5b6bc3389bc1fb7454e31946f781cad9
Click on "Rave Manual" (in Adobe .pdf format) and go to page 19 of 48 for the complete chart for a stock boat with main and jib.

Once again, that chart is for the STOCK boat. The addition of the Screacher makes a huge, and sometimes hairy, difference.

INSTRUCTIONS ON FLYING A RAVE:
See my article here:
http://www.windriderforum.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=407&sid=08f86a7da220c2f250505d4545dc2dde

PITCHPOLE MYTH:
Pitchpoles are so rare in this boat that it's hard to find any owner that has experienced it but, a pitchpole is nothing more than a very slow motion ride up to almost vertical. No matter how fast you're going it's still a slow event.

I would not fly with a small child until you are an experienced pilot. The reason is that the crew seat is just aft of a vertical frame strut. IF you pitchpole, there is a chance that the child would slide out of the seat into the strut. They wouldn't slide quickly but it's not something you want to deal with. Then, again, a child would more than likely hold on to the coaming for dear life and would be safe. I've wire tied a foam noodle around that strut. Don't take anyone flying until you've done a bit yourself. It's intuitive for an experienced sailor. A pitchpole is rare but it is no more disconcerting than a capsize but on the Rave it's not easy to recover by yourself as easily as it is on a catamaran. That's why there haven't been many pitchpoles. Once you see your bows digging, well, you know what to do unless you're new to sailing.

One good thing about the Rave and the TriFoiler is that the crew/passenger is safely ensconced within the hull. No need to worry about chasing errant small bodies that may fall off the edge.

THE BIGGEST SAFETY RISK AROUND A RAVE...
..is those foil edges. They are sharp and they are usually out of sight to feet walking around the boat. They will slice through shoes and into flesh. Almost all the time the flaps are flat on the bottom of the lake/beach but if one is upturned it's like a knife edge waiting to be stepped upon. When people are around the boat, make sure they are aware of the sharp edges on the flaps and the vertical foils.

NOT A SURF PUNCHER:
The Rave is not a surf puncher. Don't launch into a surf more than three feet high. The outer hulls, the amas, are long and slender and a big cross wave can bend one in the forward section. Just use common sense. There is an owner in Hawaii. I suppose he's careful.

I'VE HIT THE BAR AND I CAN'T GET UP:
We've had two owners who have hit a sandbar at 25mph+. (Read the chart before you go out. "What chart?") One boat was unscathed. The other needed a new beam and, I think, new foil. Total cost for the foil complete is about $300US. I don't know what the new beam cost but it's not exorbitant. Try running another boat up on a bar at that speed and see what's left to salvage. I've sailed with one Rave that had a slightly bent main beam and it flew just fine. It was odd that he was getting up just as easily as I was in my new boat. His port beam must have had a seven degree bend aiming toward the rear.

HELMETS AND A BIKINI ON BOARD ADD BOATSPEED:
A few guys have worn Gath helmets. Is it needed? Well, would it be a good idea to have a helmet on a cat? Probably so but you weigh the risk. That begs the question of also wearing rib protection of some sort when out in the trap on a cat. Is it needed? Maybe.

IT'S ALL SANDY. DOES IT STILL WORK?
You can pack sand and dirt into the trim tabs/flaps mechanism and they are completely not affected. Hard to believe until you've lived with the boat. I live where sugar sand gets everywhere. The tiny grains, shells, rock bits, never have hindered the hinges or control mechanisms. They are constantly being washed with the water action.

THE ONLY UPGRADE THAT IS NEEDED:
The only upgrade needed for the Rave is the "Doran foil uphaul" which is named after it's inventor, Doran Oster, and is simply a way to retract the heavy foils from the ****. See my site for the most advanced (over designed?) version of the uphauls.
http://home.earthlink.net/~deanrdh/deanhubbardsravetrimaranpage/

ADD A JOYSTICK FOR MORE CONFUSION:
I would not recommend the joystick manual control for each flap on the ama foils. The stock automatic leveling works perfectly. The manual controls experiment by three of the owners proved the manual controls able to point a little higher and to liftoff a little sooner but with an already busy **** it's asking too much for a pilot with only two hands and feet. Write Doran at doranoster.com for complete details. See that website for his experimental projects.

FOR YA'LL LIVING IN THE COLD:
For a boat in Rhode Island that's a good price. Check the transom CLOSELY to see if really cold weather has caused the plastic hull and aluminum frame to cause the crack due to different coefficients of expansion. The HD Poly is easily repaired but boats in the north should not be left in a really cold environment. How cold? We don't know but it was a problem with one owner in Maine, with a lawyer, who effectively helped kill production of the Rave. ("My boat leaks and I'm gettin' all WET! I coulda been killed! I'm gonna sue the bastards!") Just weld the crack back together and don't leave the Rave in the cold when the temp drops into the teens and below.

WHEELING IT AROUND:
Catrax are available for the Rave. On the Windrider yacht club site there are also pics of homemade wheels attached to the foils enabling the boat to be moved around on the asphalt parking lot. I think it's an Aussie or NZ owner that did that.

ENOUGH ALREADY!
I would recommend visiting the Windrider Yacht Club forum because the suffering cat sailors here have read all this before.
www.windriderforum.com
Posted By: bvining

Re: Foiling - 02/10/06 07:23 PM

yeah jake, that damn bug, its always nibbling at my house, especially in the winter.
Posted By: Dean

Re: Foiling - 02/11/06 01:09 AM

Hey, Jake,

I hope you know I was teasing you!
Posted By: Jake

Re: Foiling - 02/11/06 07:44 PM

Quote
Jake,
Your obviously suffering from terminal Cackalackitis: a slow, debilitating IQ degeneration.


This is entirely possible. No offense taken.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Foiling - 09/27/06 04:14 AM

Where can you buy a Moth with the foils?
Posted By: Wouter

Re: Foiling - 09/27/06 07:59 AM



Quote

The concept was to make a 16 to 18 foot boat that no other could beat around a regular triangle course, in all wind conditions.



We'll take that challenge. Make one under the F16 rules set and then you can bring it up against some of the lightest and newest beach catamaran designs available and hopefully proof your concept. The lightweightness of the class rules will make effectively foiling that much easier.

I would love to learn from a demo like that.

Wouter
Posted By: Wet1

Re: Foiling - 09/27/06 12:08 PM

Neat video. Wow, that thing looks like a b!tch to pilot!


Wouter,
Note the date of the original post. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: Wouter

Re: Foiling - 09/27/06 02:29 PM


I'd noted the date earlier, but the invitation still stands nonetheless.
© 2024 Catsailor.com Forums