racing with both monohulls and multihulls

We are trying to work with the monohullers (24-35’) to share a race committee. They are afraid that with our tacking angles and different speeds it will create problems for them. We were planning on doing separate starts.

Does anyone have any experience racing with both monohulls and multihulls?

Any thoughts on how we could stagger the starts to stay out of their way?

Thanks,

Matt

I think the monohull group has to feel the need. Cats weren't really welcome in my group for many years. Then membership started to drop, so they became more accepting to make up lost revenue.

If they want it to happen, it isn't a problem. Until then you're wasting your time.

My advice is to smoke out the real objection, the angle thing sounds bogus to me.

Specifically, they probably haven't considered two "A" marks. That, along with separate starts should cure any problems.

In my experience it is rather the cats that will have problems with the tacking angles of the mono's. Typically they outpoint you on the start line and they can luff you up beyond comparison there. Also at the bottom mark the mono's sail very deep and nearly always achieve a inside overlap at the bottom mark. Most often because a catmaran is coming from behind and hardly has any rights that way. In addition the two groups seperate from each other pretty quickly with the cats going wide and the mono's going high and deep. The only issue I ever saw arise was at the top mark were typcially the monos try a port approach to the A-mark alot more often. In cat sailing this is a big no-no because you hardly ever can stay clear and get in. The mono's feel, for some reason, that they can and always misjudge the speed of a catamaran.

Combined fleets (the few times I did them) were actually alot of fun. It is amazing to see some mono's getting really good vmg and from the other perspective (the mono one) it is unbelievable how the cats pass the other boats.

Best advice for a cat in a mixed fleet is to just sail around a mono is any way you can (windward or leeward, doesn't matter) and get as quickly as possible to the clear air on the other side. If you have to bear down and arc around a mono, then just do it. You loose less time then when trying to maintain your optimal course and speed.

Wouter

We race on mono-hull courses from time to time. Historically, we've had little respect on the course because, as a group, we are believed to be only interested in going fast and know very little about the racing rules of sailing. We've changed a good bit of that belief and having larger fleets intertwined in the local sailing clubs (F18HT, F18, A cats, etc.) and having very refined boats on the line has helped overcome this image.

It's painful but the cat's should probably start first. This way you don't have to go blazing through the monohull fleet before they get to A and the monohulls can go around the course at least once before having to deal with the multis. A second, further away A pin for the cats is also a good idea. If the race committee is committed to supporting the multihull fleet, a split start and finish line would be a great advantage because it would allow them to start you guys in another race before everyone has finished. Otherwise you end up waiting around a LONG time.

Most of any mono vs. multi issues I've had have been at C mark and I think the problems I've experienced (monohulls not willing to give me the room I'm entitled to at a mark) I attribute to their feeling like they shouldn't have to yield to such a low life, speed freak, rule-not-knowing race boat (mine). Lately, they watch us have some very tight F18 racing and I think they've begun to understand how competitive and technical we are. It just takes some time to get past any stigmas.

We have shared most of our race-training with monos. When we started sailing (cats) the club was dying, so another boat in the wednesday night races was welcome even if it was a raft made up of two pontoons.

Having a separate start is a good way to avoid the worst problems. Monos approach the line from further away than cats do and will luff you into irons the last few meters unless you have made a hole to dive into.
On the course, the ugly situations come while going downwind. Monos generally go a lot deeper, and are poor at keeping watch to their leeward. This is generally where a cat under spi or going wild downwind will come zipping in. You can never assume they have seen you, and even if you shout at them they need some time to jibe or slow down. Going up is not an option for them (they can, but are bloody stiff necked about it, and they need time to avoid breaking stuff if you take them too high).
I dont agree with Wouter that they often have rights over you. With the different angles cats and monos sails downwind, it's my experience that the cat most often will have established an overlap a long way out and will have luffing rights when the boats get close (assuming the cats are overtaking the monos of course. Please correct me if my interpretation of the rules are wrong). The funniest part is when some old-timer go hailing "mast abeam". Then we know it's time to jibe away..

Upwind there are seldom conflicts, just take care to not get in a position where you are a good luffing target (the stupid ones sometimes try to luff you, and loose time that way). You will not be around long enough to use tactical measures like backwinding on them. Just get by them no matter how, and if you go close to leeward, ride the lift in front of their bow if you dare to.

Keeping away from them during rundings is a good idea. Those boats are not very manouverable, and sometimes the crew loose control on them. "It doesn't matter where you go, as long as you go there fast" is a good rule, if it's crowded in the roundings (or look for the pinwheel effect and "slow down to win" as Rick likes to say). Remember that they will go high just after rounding the leeward mark, so be fast if they are to leeward of you.

When sharing the course with monohulls, we never assume they have seen us and never assume they will respect our right of way. This has proven to be wise time over time. I dont think they ever will learn how fast cats move in a decent wind.

Having a W/L course for the monos, and a triangle course with W/L for the cats is my preferred layout when sharing the course. Eventually, put the windward mark longer up.

I think Pete has it right. Find the real reason why they dont want to run races for you, and work on that. There is a lot of prejudices about multihulls, not to speak about beachcats among some monohullers. We are accepted in our small club now, after 6 years of attending all social, sailing events, volunteer work on the club house/area and holding office for the club. But they still dont understand why we prefer to zip around on a "childrens boat" like a Tornado instead of getting a proper boat. We just laugh at them and let them know that they dont understand what they are missing out on.

Clear Lake Racing, Houston/Clear Lake, TX does this: they start at same place and are sent on different course.

While I was heavily critized for the courses at the Tradewinds, they certainly worked.
Two weather marks, two reaching marks and two leeward marks. Multis on the outside course, monos on the inside course.
That way they also finish near the same time to get in more races.

When I first started racing there was ONLY mixed fleets. And they always started the cats last. That meant we had to sail through the fleet.
One of our Shark Cat guys was reaching over a Highlander and the guy started to luff him. Our cat guy shouted at him, "If you don't struggle, I will do it fast!" <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

At Sandusky Sailing Club the Thistle Fleet was huge. We only had 12 Sharks there at the time. The head Thistle guy was extremely biased and told me we could never out point a Thistle. In reply I simply said that I didn't want to go that slow.
But, a week or so later at a fun race, they started us all together. This Thistle guy started a boat length ahead of me and right at the RC boat. I was able to outpoint him and drove over him on the way to the A Mark.
I was grinning.., he was frowning.

Mixed company can be fun.., try it.
Rick

Contact Buddy Brown. He has been doing it for over 20 years with the Wed nights.

Doug

http://www.clearlakeracing.com/

All good thoughts, thanks

The problem with our situation is that we have permanently set racing marks out a couple of miles and just set the start to the wind. This means that making a separate course would not be that easy.

The other thing is that we (the catamarans) are not racing with spinnakers, so that will make a difference downwind.

It seems like if we started 10 min early it should not be a problem.

Matt

I have been invited several times to enter a sled race but have declined after seeing how slow these particular sailors respond to the speed of my boats. In 1979 I entered an "all come" event which turned out to be nothing but frustration. After 2 sleds almost pinched me at the line [intentionally]; we completed the course and went sailing the rest of the day. When we came into the beach we were told we were disqualifyed due to improper handicap. I did't bother to ask why but was informed that the handicap was reworked three times to be more "fair" to everyone...

thom

On the Chesapeake Bay, We race with CBYRA and handle starts both ways.

The races are usually 3 miles or longer around fixed govt marks. The course is the same for all boats.

For the PSA overnight Race of 40 miles, Beach Cats start last and finish well ahead of the mono's.

For the West River Twilight Race, We are the first start (assuming we get the fleet out to the start line in time)

For the 165 boat NASS 35 mile Race to Oxford, we are the fastest boats on the course and start last behind the PHRF A0 and Crusing Multihulls.

For the Race Back, We start in the middle of the fleet off of Tred Avon Yacht club for a 20 mile back in forth in the Choptank river and out o the Bay to Poplar Island.

In light air... you just need to clear your air... Not easy with lots of boats out there. Stay on the weather hip of the fleet. In breeze... you pass the mono's so quickly that it's not that much of an issue upwind. If you are double trapped.. you can play the puff's to climb above any monohull out there (Nevertheless, they stil believe that cat's don't go to weather)

Downwind... you will have to zig and zag through the parade of mono's running dead down wind. You are windward and overtaking so you have to thread the needle through several boats knowing that you don't have a lot of options for bearing off and the mono chutes throw up a big wind shadow. This is much easier to do without a chute up. Usually you just have to cross the fleet once... because for the next cross you will be far ahead.


By all means, make an effort to make sure your guys know the CURRENT rules, discuss the likely crossing situations a head of time, AND exercise some common sense and graciousness.

It goes along way, when you try to do the race the next year.

Mark

One final point.

Racing the monohulls will never work out. A single number rating system such as PHRF cannot handle the dramatic performance changes of a Cat fairly.

The PHRF boats complain about the Melges amd Henderson 30 ratings for similar reasons... They are able to race the rest of the mono's but the old adage of horses for courses still holds. All handicap ratings work well when you are racing similar boats together and simply need to tip the balance a little to favor the slightly slower boats.

I don't think ANYONE wants to start the mono's and beachcats together.. boat mass and mast height are working against any cat on that starting line. If they insist... Please demand a LONG line so you can minimize the mismatch on the start line.

Mark

If you look at the USSailing web site they have a Portsmouth/PHRF converson table. My Hobie 16 converts to PHRF 127.

I unofficially raced my local sailing club's pursuit race and based on that rating I started between a J100 and Soverel 39.

I would reckon that the spin boats would go heads up with some of the Farrier Tri's.

Just about all our club racing is done with a mix of yachts, dinghies and cats. We have separate starts - fast yacht (everything from Mumm 36 to Bendytoy 28), Hunter 707 sports boats, slow yachts (and some are very slow yachts..), dinghies (mainly Lasers and Blazes these days) and then the proper boats (Hurricanes, Stealths, Darts). We use fixed marks and the yacht courses will tend to be much longer than the dinghy/cat ones but we will often share the same water with them. It isn't usually a problem but you do have to be wary of yotties who underestimate our speed sometimes. On the whole they're used to us and most know what to expect.

The only time I've been worried about racing on the same water as monowobbles was a regatta where a big wind shift meant that the cats could bear away at the hitch mark and point straight at the bottom mark. Unfortunately there were about 80 dinghies trying to sail triangles in the way. And it was blowing F5...

Has anyone done a Bermuda start system? They tack on the handicap at the front (or best they can). I once waited 1 hour and 45 minutes for a three hour race (counting my starting time). I was quite toasted before we left the dock.

Needless to say, I crossed the first leaner about a half mile to finish.
t

Tom-
They used to have a distance race in North Carolina where they did this- Started all the cats after all the monos had left. The first time I did the race on my 18 square meter I beat the Committee boat (a huge Hatteras motoryacht) to the finish marker and just sort of sat there waiting for them. They didn't believe that I was actually in the race at first, but since I had passed every other boat in the race I had plenty of witnesses!
Having sailed in many "mixed" fleets I agree with almost everything said here- I always try to be gracious and stay out of their way- it helps to have sailed/skippered/crewed on some monos so you can relate to what they are going through and they're thinking. To me the biggest issue is the huge speed difference, especially in a puff- most mono guys are used to scanning slowly for approaching boats and they judge passing/crossing encounters based on their experience (which is usually other monos) and so can be extremely surprised when you just suddenly "show up" on their hip/quarter/whatever. I definitely "drive defensively" when sailing with monos- Never plan to get too close to them as they may suddenly tack just as you are about to pass to windward or gybe just are you are planning to go by.
I personally enjoy starting dead last, sailing through the entire fleet of monos (to weather upwind!) and finishing before any of them. The only downside is then waiting to start again. Agree with Mark about "horses for courses"- there is a "come all" race in Shreveport I have attended a number of times- in the typically light air the Thistles and MC scows have a clear advantage but one year the wind blew well and the top 5 boats were all cats - even on handicap!!

Kirt

Our Friday night series on Lake Washington in Seattle has both. We have five starts, with the multihulls starting last. It is a six mile triangle, usually run in light 5 to 10 mph winds. But, when it gets to 15 and over, it is fun to fly by the leaders, even after a giving a 20 minutes head start. They do have PHRF ratings for all, including the multihulls, but do not score us in the overall. The fleet includes a wide range from Cal 21's to 50ft and over Maxis.

Lots of fun for all. Including the video of the event at the bar in Anthony's, the sponsor, after the race.

Caleb Tarleton

All of the posts on this thread have great info. I've convinenced the two YCs on Maui to have multihull starts. I won't find out until the first race on where we'll start. They're lucky if the get four leaners. I'm expecting at least two F-27s plus my H 20.

I'm not sure I'd keep using the term "learner", they might think it's pejorative!

I'm not afraid of anything I can out run.

I race in a mix of monohulls and multihulls more often than not. It doesn't really seem to be much of a problem. Sailors (especially thistles and isotopes) have simply learned that it doesn't pay to get caught up dueling with a boat in a different fleet. Generally speaking, you're much better off sailing away from a confrontation, even if you have right-of-way.

Most of my racing is around drop-marks, and race committee often starts multihulls first (so they get out and away from the monohulls) and frequently send the multi's an extra lap (trying to even out the racing time). Yes, the different boats do interact on the course, but that's just life. I have occasionally heard members of one fleet griping about having to avoid other fleet boats, but that's just sour grapes. Every boat (no matter what type) is entitled to be there and everybody has to abide by the same rules. If I don't like sailing with other boats, that's my problem, not theirs.

Most inter-fleet enounters seem to take place at the leeward mark -- you just have to take care not to get pinned under a boat that doesn't round up as fast as you want. One of the clubs I sail with used to have a separate leeward mark for catamarans. We did away with that, though, so that we could report finish data to US Sailing for the Portsmouth Handicap. We've been racing that way for two years now without any real problem.

Regards,
Eric

Last year, the Long Beach Yacht Club http://LBYC.org started the R33 catamarans with the PHRF A fleet. It was great racing with a handful of the fastest racing monohulls in Southern California. Typically, an upwind-downwind course would favor the monohulls, but throw in a reach and the R33 catamarans could do much better. All in all, it was very fun.

John Papa
http://SailFast.us

We have integrated with the monohull fleets fairly well, but my advice would be having at the very least, a different A mark. A different course would be preferable, and certainly never race DPN/PRHF conversion. If you are easing your club into cats, do it slowly, they are just plain different from us in logic and philosophy.
Another thought is to have an "Adopt a monhull skipper day" and let them race with you. Swap boats occasionally in your local races. Crew for them. Have them crew for you. All these thngs will keep the cats in a good light with the monohullers, and unfortunately with all the beaches going private, we need them. But conversley, they need the numbers, and that would be us.

One more reason why I thank God I'm in a socialist country; all beaches are state property overhere and open to the general public. I can walk from north to south without trespassing.

Wouter

I also have the impression that mast-up storage at yacht/sailing clubs are way easier to find in Europe?

Her in Norway, there is a general building prohibition within 200 meters from the sea, just to keep it accessible. Not strictly enforced, but still very easy to get to the sea. If you are lucky enough to own a private beach, you can still not deny public access to it, unless it is a major infringement on your privacy (house needs to be withing 200meters of the beach) and you are willing to go trough a civil court.
But, generally the launching ramp at the clubs are much better and have safer storage/parking than a public beach.

This must be better for most than having beaches 'developed' and access restriced.


Btw: Wouter, you do know that our american friends have the impression that socialism is the same as communism? Which it is not, and that we have right wing politicians just as badass as their GOP's over here..

Wouter/Rolf:

You guys are gonna' love this! The beach here is public property too, up to the "mean" high tide line! That means there is only a "public" beach when the tide is out! Also, there is very little access; places to park your car, use the restroom, etc. To make matters worse, there are no building set-backs of any consequence to the public, except in theory! In practice, if you have the money, you can build all the way to the mean high tide line.

I expect all sorts of raging, screaming remonstrations that this just isn't so! In reality, it is exactly so! I invite you to come see for yourselves, you can bunk in at my place!

I have been sailing with monohulls In the Wed Nights on Clear Lake for 9 years now and periodically at Houston Yacht Club for about 10-11 years. In general it has been fun and worth the effort to get to know the "main stream" sailors.

In general the problems have been boats that don't see you, the Mark roundings and when the winds demand you go thriough the middle of the course or through spinnaker boat "line" downwind. For boats that don't see you, you just have to watch. For the marks, just stay clear and stay out of wind shadows. It's just not worth the effort to fight it out. Also in heavy air, give spinnaker boats plenty of room at the leeward mark. You do not want to be anywhere near them if they can't get the spinnaker down. Downwind through the middle of the course, be very careful. Wild Thinging a Tornado or an A-Class through the spinnaker boat line is a cool and scary experience.

If you have the chance, start with the Lasers. Sharing a start line with a bunch of Olympic Wannabes gives you some good experience. Also their tacking upwind in light air can teach you some things.

You will learn some new techniques.

"scrape" - use the line of monohulls to scrape your opponents off.

Shadow - Sucker your opponent into a big boat's wind shadow

Slam Dunk - use your wind shadow to induce a "death roll" in the Laser that headed you up at the start.


Carl

[/quote]


One more reason why I thank God I'm in a socialist country; all beaches are state property overhere and open to the general public. I can walk from north to south without trespassing.

Wouter [/quote]

Same deal in Hawaii, a third world country with ammenities. The hotels that have walled off the beaches have to provide access to the beaches and, in some cases, also have to provide free parking. Now if we could get them to build in a path wide enough to move a cat in on beach wheels...

what is absolutely effing remarkable Wouter is that not only do I know the difference between socialism and communism, but its not actually private ownership of the land that restricts beach access. Its the local city and county ordinances that are in place that don't allow boats OF ANY TYPE to be launched from the beach. This is to prevent the stanard domestic variety southern redneck from driving his big rig loaded down with jetskis on the beach and starting his own little game of "hit the innocent swimmer".

In fact, everytime I've either
A) Asked permission from a private landowner to use his/her property or
B) Rented a room (aka a hotel or resort) from the landowner

I've had absolutely zero problems launching from the beach. We may be a litigous society, but as long as you're careful, respectful of the land owners, and leave things the way they were before you got there, stuff is just fine around here.

So you see, in the grand scheme of things, at least ancedotally, its not private ownership of land that has restricted beach access, its actually been the babysitting government that has made our lives inconvenient because of the actions of the few inconsiderate and stupid amongst us.

I'm glad you live in a socialist utopia over there. Keep it over there and we wont have any problems ok?

It gets a little expensive to rent a motel room each time I want to go sailing, which is why I'm sailing less. And, many motels won't accept a trailer because it takes too much room.

Also, we are much more crowded here in Florida, than N.C. I would imagine.

Unfortunately, with so many people moving from Florida to the Carolinas, you may come around to my point of view sooner than you think.

To make matters worse, we have a very nice causeway here, much like Dunedin, but it is illegal to launch there because of the jet-ski problem.

My experience with beach access is that we have lots of access in the Northeast. Ramps are plentiful and mostly free,

Places like Sail Newport for mast up storage. At $300 a season for an 18ft cat its a bargain.

http://www.sailnewport.org/npt/m/_general/default.asp

On Cape Cod they recently outlawed jet ski's at all of the national seashore waters, so now we have zero competition at all the ramps the jet skiers used to use.

http://www.wilderness.org/WhereWeWork/Massachusetts/capecod.cfm

It was I who made the socialism==communism remark, as a jest.

Regarding typical redneck behaviour, I was under the impression that the other rednecks on the beach would quickly pull out their assorted military grade assault weapons and blast the offender to smithereens..

On public beaches, no motorized vessels are allowed close to the beach with engines running. Usually the no-motor zone is marked with yellow buyos, which are great to "slalom" for tack/jibe exercises (not many swimmers out there when the sailing is good).
If there are no markers, vessels approaching are required to slow down to 5 knots and stay clear of people in the water. That goes for cats as well. Most public beaches are closed off or fenced off to stop vehicles from driving on the beach. But getting a cat in is no problem. As are dinghys, windsurfers, kiteboards etc. But as most clubs have room for mast-up storage, there is usually no need to do much trailer sailing.

It is not heaven over here, but I like it (except for the lack of proper daylight during winter here at 63degrees north).

Bill,

Count your blessings! That ain't happenin' down here!

I called a lady who has a large RV park right on the Gulf (Red Coconut, Ft. Myers Beach)and asked how much it would be to rent a site for my Hobie, she said she wasn't interested in that type of business and hung up!

Rolf;

We just passed a "no retreat" law here in Florida. For decades the law required you to retreat before using deadly force, now you can just blast away (if you feel your life is in danger)! Hell, as a "domestic variety Southern red neck" I'm all for it, 'course I'll have to buy a gun first!

Good to hear it's that way in your neck of the woods. Elsewhere around the country it's at least a mixture of both. There are beaches in California where private ownership has cut off the once free access to the beaches - it's been an ongoing fight from what I'ver read. Few people who own such property want to let others onto what they have paid to own. In my neighborhood in MD we have beaches, launch ramps, boat slips, racks for kayaks - but you have to own property in the community to use any of them - and the community guards it pretty closely. The waterfront properties don't actually own the waterfront, but you'd need to go through their yard to get there, and then you still need to be from the community (community retains riparian rights). There are a lot of such neighborhoods either guaranteeing access if you live there or cutting it off if you don't. In Galesville where my club races, there are no public launch ramps or beaches. The land around the water is privately owned (including the land we use) or controlled by marinas (with no launch ramps). In actuality, the only true public water access around the Annapolis area other than the marinas (private, not all with launch ramps) are the county and state parks that just happen to be kept operating by the "babysitting governments". In fact, our "babysitting governments" are studying ways to guarantee more access, which will probably involve some socialistic practices like buying land for public use.

Pete:
I know, and I tought it insane that you should need this. Of course you can use deadly force if your own or others life are in danger, it's the same here. But guns are not as widespread, so people tend to end up at the wrong end of them very seldom.
If at least everybody who owned a gun knew how to use it..
I think Norway, Sweden and Finland have one of the highest guns per citizen ratios in the world, but they are mostly hunting rifles and we have very few yearly firearm murders (mostly family tragedies).

Rolf; Seriously, I do support the "no retreat" law, but this is not the place to explain as it would take too long.

Happily, gun deaths in the U.S. are comming down.

Keith:

It just gets better and better. Here in Florida the "baby sitting" government permitted an increase on homeowners insurance policies to help rebuild all those waterfront mansions that were destroyed by hurricanes.

My policy will increase about $600, $100 of which will go to the uber wealthy.

A few years back, one of the tiny, ultra wealthy towns on the Atlantic coast outlawed eating or drinking on the beach. I'm told it was very effective in keeping beach traffic down, especially for families with young children.

I would explain the rationale, but the reasoning is much too arcane for a "domestic variety Southern redneck" to comtemplate.

Just enjoy your water while you still have it!

Keith:

Marylands a bitch. I'll admit it.

In Talbot county, there are so "few" places to put in, that the ONE county-owned "free use" ramp just started charging non-county residents a $50 per launch fee to cut down on the traffic from out-of-towners launching their boats.

When it boiled down to it, what we found out is that the local fisherman were upset that others outside the county were able to trailer their fishing boats, and compete at a lower cost than the locals that have to pay county taxes and slip fees and so forth. I can't remember if they passed that rubbish, but its not like I care.... you know why?

Because I can launch at TAYC anytime I want. I not only have friends that are members, but its where I learned to sail. The first time I brought ole squalus up north, I looked for a place to launch, and even though its a "closed club" and I'm not a "member" I walked in the gates and asked to speak to a club manager. Took less than 5 minutes of simply asking if I could use the otherwise un-used beach, and I was good to go. He said that I had to be out of there by 6pm because of a party that night, to which I agreed.

Similarly, I've launched from the Ferry dock in Bellvue (simply because its closer to my house) after I asked the Ferry-skipper if he had a problem with me being there. Of course he said he didn't mind.

In Myrtle Beach SC, we rented a room at a hotel on the beach however there was a seawall between the parking lot and the beach. We went a block down the street to one of the "resorts" that had their road end in the sand and went to the front desk to ask if it was ok to put the boat in there. Of course they said no problem. As we were putting up the stick, a police officer came by and asked if we had permission to use the private property, which we had just obtained.

Four years ago, Bahia-Honda State Park. A friend (RTodd) wanted to launch his 18SX on the beach side of the state park. There was a kayak ramp from the road which would suit a beachwheeled cat just fine. He was told no, no way, impossible, and he had to buy a launch permit for the marina side and at least one nights "anchorage fee" for his SX. He was forced into ramp launching, and sailing out through a VERY narrow marina entrance/exit channel, once resulting in him hitting rocks with his bow to avoid a cigarette boat kareening through the channel.

You see, while we might not just had free reign to go about tromping where-ever we want, people are reasonable enough to discuss possibilities for fair use. Governments lack higher brain functions, and are therefore unable to adapt to different situations in a reasonable manner.

What I can't effing stand is people moping around saying that "life's not fair, I can't put my boat in within 30 minutes of my house, damnit what is the government doing to help me?" You sound like a bunch of Katrina victims that spent the night before partying it up on Bourbon street. Don't rely on the government to do jack-diddly for your cause. Unless you can demonstrate that your wishes will either get votes, or get tax dollars, then you're wasting time complaining about some pie-in-the-sky dream that will never happen.

In short, be wary of any man (or woman) that says "Let the government take it over! We'll all be happier!"



The wealthy vote and pay proportionately much more in taxes. Sucks don't it? I wonder how many floridian carpenters, electricians, masons, plumbers, building suppliers, inspectors, and land developers are going to be able to feed their families because these "uber weathy" mansions are going to be rebuilt. You might have a leg to stand on if you claimed that they were going to be rebuild regardless of the tax benefit.

Also, I'll pre-declare my hipocrasy - the two inland lakes that I sail at are both parks. One is a city park and the other is a state park. However, you can't drink alcohol at either, and at both you're subject to very stiff regulations. (For instance at the city park lake, you are not permitted to enter the water beyond your knees due to "wildlife and water quality restrictions")

Matt,
You might want to talk to Sail Newport.
http://www.sailnewport.org/npt/m/_general/default.asp
We raced F18HT's for 2 years in the Newport Regatta in a division with j22, Fireballs, Sheilds and the Star class. We had our own start and never had any issues. In fact the race committee for our division was able to get the multihulls on a few more races because we were back and ready and they weaved us into the start sequence while the leaners were out on the course.

North Barrington YC (RI) was the race committee for our division. I'm sure that if you call Sail Newport they could put you in touch with someone from North Barrington YC and you could ask your particular questions.

My memory of the races was that the course was spread out enough that we never had any issues.

Another race I did with big monohulls was a round Jamestown race and they started everyone together. Being on the line with those giants was scary (40-66ft) It was windy and they were all leaned over hard, sailing back and forth across the line during the starting sequence. Being down at water level gives you a very unique perspective on a big monohull, especially when they are bow down, leaned over. They look very fat from that angle, and you cant really see anyone, the only thing you see is the bow, the keel and the side of the hull. The people are very far away and the boats seem really big and threatening. I remember Peter Johnstone sailing up to me and saying "you might want to stay out of the way, getting run over by one of those would be a bad day to die.

I was right with you up until:



I'm not a tax guy, but in my conversations with a few "uber wealthy" folk here in my town (where you can't throw a rock an not hit one - who will then sue the pants off you and the next seven generations of your kin), it would appear that there are plenty of loopholes that can be taken advantage of.

To be fair, most of these people are EXTREMELY generous by nature, but to declare that they are getting "stiffed" by higher OVERALL taxation (not tax rates) would be a stretch...

We've lost convenient beach access because:
1 too many people want the same thing as us
2 we sat around thinking things wouldn't change
3 we expected "someone else" to take our interests to heart
4 a few bad apples spoiled it for the rest of us (and then #3)

This is a very conservative Republican area, the "leg I have to stand on" is the apparent ground swell of voter resentment. My guess is that this increase will be rolled back.

Florida is growning at a phenomenal rate. We do not need to subsidizes anyone, let alone the uber-wealthy. We have a 2.5% unemployment rate, considered full employment. The problem here is a surplus of jobs and it is increasingly serious. A "starter home" in this area is around $200,000. Waterbug is maybe 35 miles South and I would be afraid to guess what s "starter home" is in Collier County which depends on us for blue collar labor.

Locally, the aggregate demand for housing far outways the economic benefit derived from the wealthiest few. Simply put, we just don't need to cater to them, Sucks don't it!

I feel bad for the poor schlepps in Iowa, who are paying more for insurance due to losses from wildfire (CA), earthquake (CA), tornados (KA), Floods (LA, TX) and hurricanes (FL, LA, MS, TX).

If they weren't coughing up dough, our insurance would easily be 10x higher down here.

And consider yourself lucky. Median home price in my town is now $500,000 for a 2 bdr, 2 bth (no garage). Interest rate hikes will change this for the better, though...

I understand your point, it is valid. Nevertheless, if through applied political pressure I can reduce my premium and, more importantly, slow its certain rise I will do so. Not saying it's fair, only probable!

btw The last I heard Naples was pretty generous in allowing cats on the beach.

At least with the floods it's only those who pay flood insurance. Regular homeowner's insurance doesn't cover that, and if you live in a flood zone generally your only option is to use the Federal backed polices from NFIP. Ooops, there's the pesky gov't helping out again. But anyways, only the people with that kind of insurance will take an increase for the flood losses - I'll be one of them. Boat U.S. did sent me a note about my boat insurance going up due to those losses however, but they some point in that Isabel whacked the Chesapeake. One trick for homeowner's insurance if you're in a reduced act of God area is pick a company that does not insure in the augmented act of God areas. Eerie is one such company, losses in those areas don't translate into higher premiums.

On the point that this thread was about - I find it fun to mix it up with the keel boats, and really enjoyed being on the line for the Annapolis to Oxford race this past year. Pretty exciting to see the big fast PHRF boats, even more exciting to run down guys who spend more on one sail than I did for my whole boat. Avoid the wind shadows, and don't for a second think they will alter their lines even if you have the right of way. Mixing the small and big boats together is something I'm interested in seeing work even from the multi perspective - CRAC now has a "maxi-cat" class for the big boats, and so far they run the same course as the rest of us. Issues such as draft and room for a 19' wide boat in the midst of smaller ones is interesting.

Tad - going to TAYC any time you want to sail is nice for you and the folks with contacts, but doesn't help anybody who wants to join the sport and doesn't have those contacts or the scratch to join such a club in the first place. Doesn't help grow the base of sailors, and contributes to the sailing as a rich person's game notion.

Keith, the whole point of that tirade was to point out that even though some areas may seem "closed for public use", a simple act of making personal contact with the person(s) responsible for the property can get you a long way.

I didn't name-drop any of my friends' names, and I'm almost positive that they didn't remember me from 15 years ago

Matt:

You might also try volunteering as crew, locally they always need warm bodies. Of course, building personal relationships isn't gonna hurt. It's hard to say no to a friend!

This is why I cant wait to move back to Puerto Rico. Miles and MILES of virgin beach access.

Insurance rates are much much lower.

Property tax are stuck in the early 40's

I would think so with hundreds of millions of US taxpayers dollars supporting the Commonwealth. Of course there are no taxes coming back to the US from Puerto Rico. No offense, but I think PR either should become a state and contribute or not receive the benefits that it does.
That being said, I'm sure the sailing is awesome there

Yep you are right, but with all due respect, what does your post have anything to do with the thread? Other than your last sentence? You just needed to throw that out?

What does any of this taxation and beach access have to do with this thread?

Yep, that is exactly why it is always so easy to sting them with such remarks. And of course the Right Wing politicians of the US kind that we do have overhere are not in power, except in Denmark and Italy. They are just as much on the fringe as the pure communists, the exception here being Italy again.

Wouter

I don't need to come out there, I believe you !

You want is more fun overhere as well. The government owns the dunes and flood planes as well, there is hardly any civilian building in those area's. And any town that happened to be right on the coast line for several hundreds of years has a duty to maintain public access to the beaches, FREE OF CHARGE ! That is where we all pay higher taxes for ! Others get excellent football field, I easily accessible beaches. The soccer players pays partly for my ramp and I pay partly for his pitch. On average this works out equally beneficial for all. And THAT is socialism, looking beyond one owns direct interests and understand that "common good" things can only be maintained if individual groups work together. The real great thing about is that you don't need to show party membership or a little red book to proof you are worthy of making use of the common good stuff. Best of both worlds, I call that.

Wouter

I'm happy to keep my socialist utopia out of the USA if the USA will keep their "might makes right" and "cut throat capitalism" out of the rest of the world.

Some hard times coming ahead for you, Your Katrina reconstruction program just hired two of our more prominent socialist water management guru's to analyse what went wrong and what needs to be done right.

I hear there are some interesting lectures on this katrina disaster at the watermanagement faculty that is across the street of the faculty I work for.

I'll bet maugan has either just fainted or is blowing steam from his ears, right now.

Wouter

I have forwarded this thread on to our racing guy as I am not making the final decision. Thank you for all your input it will help him. I will keep you updated with what we decide.

As far as befriending and crewing for monohullers. I do both on Wednesday nights.

Thanks for throwing in the socialism vs capitalism debate. Nice touch.

Matt

They're okay with the boat on the beach, BUT, you can't keep it overnight (unless you're a city resident and pay for a spot), and you can't park your trailer anywhere near the beach. Works great if you know someone near the beach that you can drop the trailer, but it's tough if you don't and have to hoof it a mile or so back to the beach.

Taken my old boat out a couple of times, and had a ball. Flat beaches, low surf, and nice water temps.

Matt - When Art Stevens brought the Fast and Fun program through Galesville a number of years back, his one piece of advice for dealing with the clubs and other sailing groups that may not view us favorably was to "conquer from within" - join up, infiltrate, change minds, percepions and votes. Sage advice, looks like you already have that started with your Wednesday nights and other efforts. Good luck with it all!

Also, sorry for participating in the thread hijacking...

OK OK that's it!

If it were not for the USA'S "might" most europeans wouldn't have the "right" to govern their own county. The Netherlands, along with several ungrateful countries, would be either part of Germany (twice over)or part of the Soviet block. Ask the Poles and the Slavs how well that worked out. Until countries pay for their own defence, in a significant manner, they are no more then childeren living off their parents generosity.

As far as "cut throat captilism" goes. The very standard of living that you cherish is due to US capitalism. Most new drugs are developed and paid for by the citizens of the United States. Why, because there is no fiscal incentive to develop drugs outside of the US (for the most part). Until the citizens of socialist countries start to pay for the R&D required to develop new drugs and other technologies I would keep the critisism of capitalism down.

Oh yes, "cut throat capitalism" goes beyond new product development. Ask the French, who bailed them out in the 1950's when the French Franc collapsed..The USA! When there is a disaster in ANY part of the world who is there first and contributes the most...The USA. Who is the primary supporter of the United Nations, the throne of Socialism..the USA

The funny part is the technology you will use to respond was developed, perfected, and exported to the world from the USA!

John

Er.... No, actually the computer (and the internet) were British inventions.....

Do we really need to remind you about the US innovation and US companies that brought the internet to the point that it's at today? Little US companies like Microsoft, Netscape, AOL, Intel, Cisco, EMC, IBM, and do I really need to go on?

Humm, I seem to remember that the netherlands weren't part of the first world war, so don't know exactly about "twice over"

Come to think of it were would we be without american help during the 80 year (rebellion) war with Spain. The three Dutch-English wars during the 17th century, or even the fight with the murderous HORDES from the east. From The Huns (right after birth of christ) to the Mongols somewhere around the first millenium. Not forgetting the Vandals, the Vicogoths or even the Viking invasions. As well as the various clashes of the 19th century. Come to think of it the Romain empire itself came to a end in the Dutch marshes and the German Forrests. If it were not for the invaluable contributions of the Americans at all of these times we would not be a Dutch people at all. Let alone have won the right to govern ourselfs and this land we call the Netherlands ...

Ehh, wait a minute, the americans of those time were still wearing bear skins and feathers and dancing around a bon-fire.

So listen up now. Foreign powers have invaded, conquered and lost the Netherlands due to local rebellion many times over in the history of our people. Each time the Dutch identity survived and thrived. We have both been weak at times as well as been a world spanning superpower, in addition to that we've been the financier of the American revolution itself and have sheltered the very pilgrim fathers from prosecution before they decided to sail to the new world. Haven't seen much thanks for those contributions lately.

If you think that a more permanent Nazi or Sovjet occupation would have ended our claim to these lands or killed off our identity then you are seriously mistaken. In time, we would have again fought ourselfs free and would have re-established control of our own destiny as we had done 10's of times in the past 2 millenia of Dutch history. All the while being surrounded by big powerhouses to all sides (England, Germany, France and at a time Danes/Vikings).

Thanks goes TO YOUR FATHER OR GRANDFATHER for putting in a contribution that rather soon shedded our yoke in 1945; I write contribution as I seem to remember large formations of Poles; Canadians, Brits, Free Dutch, Free French and what not else in this endeavour. But don't ever make the mistake of thinking that YOU personally can derive any credit from this. You didn't do any fighting. And don't think that your larger American family singlehandedly achieved something that wasn't coming our way in due time anyway. And your weren't defending any European liberties in Korea, Vietnam, Grenada or even Iraq (I refrain from giving you the full listing)

This world, and the nations or peoples in it, are alot older then 1776; during that time many sacrifices have been made in favour of the survival of a nation. In this light it will be wise to remember the modesty of your contributions and the travesty of your own failings.

Wouter

I seem to recall that the code breaker machine that was first used at Bletchly park, and that would soon lead to the electronic computers of the early years, was actually a Polish design. Alan Turing (UK) was the first to use electronic tubes as switches in the design, significantly improving its processing speed. The yanks took the technology with them statewise in the final stages of the war. The first real PC chipset, the 8086 and 8088 series, were actually spin-offs of the NASA moonlanding projects. And we all know how many ex-nazi's and other non-US trained engineers worked on that.

The Internet itself, or rather the hardware network structure that acts as infrastructure orginates with the US Defense ARPA network I beleive. A US build grid that was to be used by the defensive forces or guerilla's during an sovjet occupation. The software part of it, HTML etc, was actually thought up by European engineers at the CERN partical research institute in Zwisterland. The porno that made the net great in the beginning came from all sides.

Netscape/mosaic was/is US based. Cheap computers and parts that allow its rapid introduction into households came (and still come) from Asian nations. I'm using a flat screen monitor right now (Japanese patent), before I used a electron tube monitor (european patent, many of which are Philips patents = Dutch). The bloody thing uses electricity (European invention), halve of its used plastics are patented by DOW chemical, the other halve by various European and Asian companies like the Dutch DSM company. The Lithography machines used to make the chips are most likely made by ASML Lithography (Dutch company). I think they have 85 % of the world market in that area.

The English language I use for communication is a European invention. Language as general invention is an African invention. Written language is an Asia minor invention (mesoptemia). Who actually invented the Binairy number system. The general invention of numbers and its aritmatic is actually an Arabian invention. Mathematics, or rather its ald name "Algebra", is derived from the Arabic scholar Al-Jabr (present day Iraq). He was the first to write a text book on Algebraic concepts and started the whole field of present day Algebra (mathematics). Of course he used various sources of older mathematical discoveries. Many of them Greek, Arabic and Sanskrit (india) origin.

Yes, I would say that this was pretty much a global effort. But leave it to the Yanks to claim all the credit for it.

They also think that they invented the Applepie, pizza, TV and automobiel.

Wouter

I have been reading posts anonymously for a month or so. I am trying to learn. And I have learned a lot from the posts of all of you who know so much about things I know so little about. I have been impressed that sailors from all over the world could comment and offer help to each other. All of you have the same passion and interest. Please gentlemen, you are really disappointing me. You are not at all different. Nearly everyone in the states is of European decent. If you ask an American about his heritage they will say my family is Scottish, or Norwegian, or Irish. This is a silly thread that is below any of you. I have been hanging on your words for weeks. I have the utmost respect for you and your knowledge of this sport, no matter what country governs you. Enough of this.

Hi Sunny; Couldn't disagree with you more, this is the most entertaing thing I've done lately, 'couse I don't get out much!

However, this does seem to be upsetting a lot of people, so let's move the fray to more suitable ground. Remeber, poor ol' Matt just wanted to know how to join up with the monohull folks!

How 'bout it Wouter? I challenge you! Let's start a new thread and see who can come up with must satiric name!?

Sunny, don't worry, I don't have any personal nukes and I'm well out of range of Wouters' blunderbuss!

When did SRI move? Was DARPA founded in the UK?

DO NOT READ THIS POST UNTIL AFTER 22:00 hours local time and 6 drinks....it is for entertainment purposes only.



Sounds like the Dutch have relationship issues. Maybe Dr. Phil could help....wait, he is American, is that allowed?



Ouch. This statement will make the cartoon protests seem miniscule.



Thanks for the financing, it came in handy. Has that tab been cleared or did we default on it? By the way, why'd they leave? Sounds perfect to me.



Time would have told, gladly it was avoided. Most occupations you mentioned crumbled from within due to lack of oversight, lack of speedy communication, lack of speedy travel - which while not perfected were coming of age in the 1940's. It is an interesting philosophical question how long an occupation would have lasted in these more current times - assuming the Nazi's would have kept up their extrodinary economic development that they saw in the 1930's.



All TOUGH SOBs, in my book.



This response was a little personal and "is exactly why it is always so easy to sting them with such remarks".



Very elegant. I cannot remember the book I read that in, but I am still looking for the title.

All in all, a very concise look at how differently historical contributions can be viewed - dependent upon ones local surroundings.

We all have Al Gore and his wonderful internet to thank for making it all possible.

While you have your list of inventors out: who invented fiberglass, carbon fiber techniques and all the other cool sailing related inventions?

Guys:

ENOUGH!!!!!

Lets stop the war and remember
why we are all here

This is suppose to be about Catamarans and Sailing not useless babel

Bring on the Summer and the good Wind. Flying a hull and good racing.

Doug Snell
Hobie 17
Soon to be Nacra A2
www.tcdyc.com

Yeah, end it here. No more political BS.

Racing with the mono's is quite fun. I find it very interesting to see how the cat performs compared to other boats, especially ones that are exceptional pointers (thistle/etc). Not only does it give me the chance to a) see some other cool boats with skippers that are just as enthusiastic about their "yacht," but it b) allows them to see the way a cat behaves on the water. It is my chance to distinguish us from other boats, and to disspell any myths that cats may still retain. At any rate, sailing, be it on a mono, dinghy, or cat, is a plus. In these times when sailing seems to be declining, I'll take what I can! Arrrgghhh!

Matt,
I am curious -- at our club on Lake Erie we had permanent marks set out in a big circle so they basically covered all possible wind directions, and then the race committee boat set up in the middle of the circle and chose the course marks and set the starting line based upon the wind direction.

Is that what you have? If not, what exactly do you have in terms of permanent marks?

The modern catamaran was invented by Sir William Petty an englishman

Gareth

Nope. I just know when my comments are not wanted any further.

A skill that unfortunately, you have yet to master my socialist friend.

Maughan17/Wouter:

I'll be happy to joust with both you guys at "political science" (new thread).

Now that was funny

I always thought of him with respect to bigger ships, but I see he did the smaller and funner stuff too. I always thought of Herreshoff with Amaryllis being more in line with modern cats...


Cat Kicking Mono Butt in the 1870's

The modern catamaran was invented 3000 years ago by the Polynesians. Do the research. The hull tech isn't that different, only the materials have changed.

Suggest "We the Navigators" David Lewis

Also, see "Canoes of Oceania", Haddon & Hornell; or just go here: http://www.wharram.com/

Gosh, I had no idea about what the Polynesians did.

I'm always up for a good read, but who doesn't know the Polynesian side. No doubt the inspiration for what we sail these days. Familiar with Wharram and the like (although I have never owned or sailed one like you guys).

I was thinking modern in the sense of appearing in the midst of what everybody else thinks/thought is modern, or the crossover that more resembles what we sail today. For instance the attempt to build a catamaran warship by Sir William Petty or Herreshoff adding the gaff and sprit rig and taking on the yachts of the time in what sounds like modern beach cat fashion. Many years later we consider a sprit/pole to almost be a required part of modern cat design. True that depending on what you sail the difference may be less rather than more. Didn't mean to offend Polynesian sensibilities.

Where would one draw the line between modern and not? Would a 3000 year old Polynesian design be considered modern next to a Reynolds 33 or a maxi cat from the The Race? Or an A-Cat for that matter. Sure the concept and basic design are there, and people tend to learn from them by looking back (using lashings for hull to crossbeam connections as an example - Wharram, CLC MBuli, others). I'll go out on a limb and say there's more difference than simply building a Polynesian design from carbon fiber. Is a Wharram modern next to a Gunboat? Is the difference only materials? Interesting questions.

Anyway, I think the Amaryllis story is interesting on this thread if for no other reason than the original thread is about multis and monos racing together. I have always regarded that as the beginning of the modern multi/mono "feud", at least in the US.

You say:
who doesn't know the Polynesian side.
---based on remarks like the below, I don't think YOU do. Sorry if this offends your Eurocentric sensibilities...

You said: For instance the attempt to build a catamaran warship by Sir William Petty or Herreshoff adding the gaff and sprit rig and taking on the yachts of the time in what sounds like modern beach cat fashion. Many years later we consider a sprit/pole to almost be a required part of modern cat design.

----go here: http://www.pvs-hawaii.com/canoe/canoe_evolution.htm

---A crabclaw IS a sprit rig. Both the Polynesians AND the Arabs (catsail, JUST like the Sunfish rig-look at a felucca) were sailing upwind for thousands of years before the Europeans happened to stumble upon it.

The basic, long, narrow, V-hull design is pretty old. In fact, neither Amaryllis (flat bottomed) nor Petty's design is as 'modern' as the Polynesian cats. They used the shipbuilding techniques that we now consider 'old' (frame-and-plank) whereat the actually OLD Polynesian techniques are more like what's being done now (stitch-and-glue, tortured ply, bulkheaded). The materials are now different, sure, but the basic hull concepts from the Polynesians are now just pretty much refined. I have this info from reading what the designers (Wharram, Shuttleworth, etc.) have to say. They looked to the Polynesians for first principles.

Here's another tidbit: Battened sails were invented by the Chinese - have a look at junk-type sails sometime. Works the same... the Chinese have a saying about how the sail is 'an ear listening for the wind.'

Again, sorry to offend your Eurocentric sensibilities, but credit is due where it's due, and these designers just refined the concept-they didn't invent it. But then, there's nothing new under the sun.

Hmmm, I'm confused. What do you mean by "eurocentric sensibilities" when you are talking to somebody from Annapolis, Maryland?

Tami:

You go girl. Put them in there place.
Will I see you at deep South?

Doug

I'm not Polynesian, yet you don't ask this question of Mr Keith who initiated the 'sensibilities' remarks.

Nor am I but half European, the other half being Cherokee, straight outta the Quallah tribe. Being that most of the US is of European descent, as certainly was Petty and very likely Herreshoff, the term applies.

Nevertheless, Eurocentric is a term used as opposed to, shall we say, colonial, or dare I say primitive? The concept that a 'developed country' must have invented this 'modern' technology would be termed 'Eurocentric.'

Tami:

Like you said unless you are pure Native American we are ALL foreigners when Columbus stepped off the boat

Doug

Heck, you have lost me, because I'm still trying to figure out what "sensibilities" means.

I watch way too much Discovery channel. Some genetics guru says we're all related to some guy in East Africa from 60,000 years ago.

My father always said I looked strange, now I know why!

Hey Boudicca did someone pee in your wheaties this morning. You seem awfully angry over the remarks about what makes a modern design or not. I don't believe Keith ever said anything about the Polynesian design being primitive, that's something that you read into it.

Why are some of you guys taking this stuff so personally? Aren't there more important things in your lives to get worked up about?

Alec

What's your problem? Gotta have a fight? Want to lay frustration from previous crap in this thread on my head? Whatever.

By sprit I meant bowsprit. Yes, crabclaws, junks, lateens, etc. all came before. The use of sails themselves came before. The idea of something that can float came before from somewhere else. Doesn't mean that there are not modern versions.

My comment about Polynesian sensibilities was only because you seemed to believe that only you had knowledge of their contributions - the "do your research" line ticked me off. It was actually meant tongue in cheek. Sorry. Never said anything or claimed anything about battened sails, and if you knew me (which you don't) you'd realize that the eurocentric remark is pretty stupid. But yes, I must claim european as my ancestral roots. Because of that I must have never known that fully battened sails were not an invention of Hobie Alter - NOT. Chinese junks you say? Never heard of 'em. I'll have to look that up.

Yes, narrow v-bottomed hulls are pretty old. Do we all use them these days? No. Is that simply a refinement? Maybe. I-20s, and others use a flatter section. Your main hull (vaka) on your F-27 although narrow, is flatter on the bottom to promote planing by the main hull (even though the amas or as Farrier calls them floats are v-sectioned), and Ian likes to make that distinction with respect to other designs that follow the narrow v-shaped model, more room and faster he says. Looking to old designs for principles doesn't mean that new designs are merely copies, only influenced (although some are copies). Even Petty and Herreshoff admit to being influenced by the Polynesians. Good for them to draw on that to produce something out of the box from the conventional eurocentric thoughts and designs of their times, and to introduce the concepts to a lot of folks who though themselves to be the pinnacle.

But I still think that that the appearance of the boats from Herreshoff and Petty in the middle of what was considered at the time to be the cream of the crop of boat design as significant. Petty's larger stuff looks more like two conventional ships joined at the hip. But the boats Herreshoff was trying were a little more in line with what we have today. And Amaryllis was not his only one. And the mono/multi debate at that time is certainly a preview of modern times.

Since we're all googling, here's an interesting page. It's in French, and the English link brings up a translator (not an English version of the site). Look at the configuration of Amaryllis. I may be crazy, but it bears similarities to what is sailed today.

More Stuff

Anyway, have a nice day. Relax. Take a deep breath.

What personal remarks were made? What could possibly incite you to anger? There was nothing in my remarks to infer such, and I stand by my assertions. Expression of a contrary point is debate, not aggression. If you express an opinion, expect another - that's how it goes.

Boys, if I get angry, trust me, you'll know it.

I explained myself in the previous post and said sorry, and yes, my "sensibilities" comment was again tongue in cheek. I'll make sure to label all such things as such in the future. I didn't like your assumption on what I (or most people on this forum) don't know and what sounded to me like a very condescending way to reinforce that. And then you proceeded to attack based on more assumptions. Difference of opinions and disagreements are one thing and make things fun and interesting. It didn't sound that way to me. But in retrospect that was all probably tongue in cheek too, sorry I missed it. I'm not a particularly thin-skinned person. But I ain't a newbie either.

This thread, although in the beginning had a very interesting and noble purpose, seems to be possessed by some kind malicious spirit (an ancient Polynesian God? Joking, just joking). Seems to bring out the frothing, spitting worst in people. We need to perform an exorcism. Or just go sailing. The one winter blast is done here and we're back to our winter of 60 degree days.