A cat vs F-16

Wouter:

How 'bout it? Can you explain it in a nut shell?

Boats are boats, the important thing is to find the boat that will keep you active. List the top 8 or 10 characteristics that you are looking for in a boat, find a boat that has most of those qualities and go for it.

An "A' cat will fit better for some, F16 for others, F18 for others, I20 for others, F-35 for others, etc....... See John Alani's post in the F18 vs F16 topic.

I'm probably going with the A, but for the money involved I just want to get it right. The fly in the ointment is that I saw a clip of an A cat with a spin. Looked like a lot of fun! So, if spinnaker is the name of the game and single handing is important why not the 16? See my dilemma?

With the exception of maybe Marstrom, the majority of A cat manufacturers will not support you if you add a spinnaker to the boat (warrantee, etc.)

A major concern to me.

Pete:

Christopher Sundberg christopher.sundberg@gmail.com and I have had a discussion with Pete Melvin and Ben Hall about putting a spin on a A2 with a Marstrom M18 snail. Contact him and get in the mix.

Doug Snell
Hobie 17
Soon to be Nacra A2
www.tcdyc.com

And if you intend to race the A cat with other A cats, well, they don't use spinnakers for triangle racing...yet!

For me much of the fun start when you can go out on trapeeze. Which class will get my 97kgs out there first?

No way I can let go of spinnaker sailing, but I could live without it for class regattas and bring it out for recreational sailing.

Timbo:

That is why I have told Christopher if I put a spin setup on A2 i will not drill holes in boat like Haken did on his Marstrom. Has to be a system that is removable.

Pete:

There are a number of used boats out there. There is 1998 Watercat on the beachcats for $8900 in CA.

Doug Snell
Hobie 17
Soon to be Nacra A2
www.tcdyc.com

For me the economics are wrong on a '98. Time is money, a drive to California is out of the question for me.

Different horses, different courses.



A nut shell is nor very big so what else can I add.

Lets me give this a shot.

A-cat : An "all-or-nothing" horse for exclusively singlehanded minded sailors with a noticeably desire to own highly refined catamaran technology and who are content to accept its sensitiveness to trim which is a direct result of being highly developped.

F16 : A fast baseline horse that does nearly everything surprisingly well without being exceptional in any one particular aspect. It is only exceptional in its versatility. In many respects it is halveway between the F18 designs and the A-cat, trying to combine the best of both worlds.

End of nut shell


Some additional comments :

In the way of performance you will find that the A-cats, F18's and F16's are really close together around a race course. Sure enough the A-cat dominates upwind but will loose equally as much on the downwinds. The really light winds favour the A-cat, while the medium and strong winds favour the F18's and F16's. Pretty much as soon as there is enough wind to properly fill the spinnaker the spi boats will move to the front. This is in about 5 to 6 knots and above.

The A-cats have a very good international class with international events. In the way of local events I'm not too impressed. F16 is a young class which is still building herself up. We are small in local fleets and international events by any standard. Having said this, the F16's do seem to be more at home in open class events then the A-cats. You will see F16's do distance (fun) races but not many A-cats.

The F16's require less care then the A-cats although they are no tanks like the Hobie 16 or Hobie 18.

A-cat = 75 kg overall weight
F16 = 107 kg overall weight
Next singlehander = about 135 kg's (I-17 or FX-one) overall weight
F18 = 180 kg overall weight

When singlehanding you really feel the difference of 75 or 107 kg compared to 135 kg and over.



Personally I think F16's are great fun because of their versatility. For me the A-cat is boring; I'm sorry to say that but that is exactly how I feel. It does a few things very well but is unsuited to any use outside of that framework.

I get a real kick out of sailing with a spinnaker, both singlehanding as doublehanding. I love the fact that I can go out sailing my F16 as an A-cat look-a-like in the evenings (just put the mainsail up and go) and then convert it into a full blood doublehanded racer for the weekends (events, club races) by hoisting the jib and spi as well. Note that an F16 in A-cat-setup (only mainsail) will feel much like a pure A-cat; especially the newer F16's like the Blade F16. So for this reason I personally don't feel that I'm missing much.

I really do love the fact that I can switch from doublehanded sailing to singlehanded sailing within 5 minutes (hoisting or lowering the jib and when desired reraking the mast); even at events when a crew either shows up or cancels unexpectly. I can take anybody along that I want to by just going as a selftacking sloop rig without rigging the spinnaker. Total novice as crew ? No problem, the selftacker takes care of that part. Experienced crew ? Time to do some spinnaker action !

I also really appreciate the fact that both setups, solo and doublehanded are equally competitive against the F18's and A's. I love the fact that the F16's share several important design principles with the A-cats while staying relatively inexpensive. I also love the fact that the F16's are so comparable to the F18's in the performance and feel/appearence; making all my open class and club racing alot more enjoyable. In addition it allows me to do distance races and fun races.

Sure; when rigged the same as an A-cat (only a mainsail) the F16 is close to an A-cat with the A-cat having a definite edge both in pointing and speed. But the F16 is still second best in the setup when including all other designs for singlehanded sailors. Now put a spinnaker on the F16 and things start to change, the A's will now be working hard to stay in front and you have just extended your enjoyment of the F16 boat. Now add the possibility of adding crew and jib and go head to head with F18's or do distance races and you have just passed into a realm where the A-cat simply can not follow. Sure a nacra I-20 will eat the F16 up in a distance race, but the I-20 in its turn can't follow the F16 into the singlehander realm.

Like the way I started; the F16 is not an exceptional design in any particular aspect but it is surprisingly good in nearly all aspects making it an extremely versatile design that will allow you to enjoy cat sailing at a high level in any given setup.

But Pete, the best comment (advice) I can give you is to just get a test ride on one of VectorWorks Marine Blade F16's. Probably Chuck Harnden is close to you now; otherwise Matt from Vectorwork has been willing in the past to do a test ride. Just grasp that chance and see for yourself what the F16 can do. Don't take my word for it.

Mind you with the 2007 Alter Cup boats being Blade F16's you may just get a good deal on one of you are willing to wait a year.

Here is some extra info on an earlier test ride if you are interested.

Blade F16 test sail report


I hope this helps

Wouter

Very helpful, thank you.

Wouter, you must have big nuts.

Sometimes to do justice one needs to go beyond the lines set.

A-cats are an easy sell, just name the things they excell in.

F16's however, as direct result of the way they came about, need some background info.

Wouter

Wouter-
How much skill does one need to make a 16? Do you have a story on the web somewhere with pics of yours when you made it?

Hear, Hear!

I was joking my longwinded friend. I would have been shocked if you had left if at "different horse, different course."

I happen to agree with most of what you said. The only exception is that you refer to the A as "boring." I agree that singlehanding with a spin is the way to go, but I'm probably going to add a spin to my A for free sailing. This is not going to be boring. I single hand my HT now with the spin, and that isnt boring, so I get what you are talking about.

What the A has to offer is really a one design fleet racing boat. Most of the A racing - at least up here (RI,CT, NJ) is done in a one design setting. Everyone has the same uni rigged sail and they all go downwind the same way. And its very simple, clean boat, one sail, quick to rig.

When you get above 8-10knots the A goes into "wild mode" hull up, gybing downwind, different than flying a spin downwind, but still very interesting. Different, but not boring. But you dont have to rig a spin, or get crew, or deal with another sail.

Doug and Pete,
You can absolutely add a spin to your a cat without drilling holes in the bows. I'm thinking about an attachment that fits over the forestay eyes. Add a smaller snail snuffer and you got a nice little package. I started work on a Marstrom knockoff snail snuffer this weekend. We'll see how it comes out.

I am planning on adding a spin to my A, but I might not, "wild mode" might be enough, or I might get the urge to fly the spin when I'm not racing. Who knows.

If I was going to take friends or family with me, I wouldnt take the A cat. I wouldnt take the A on a distance race. But, hey I'm lucky I got an HT, a friend with an i20, an A cat and enough foam and carbon to build a moth.

I dont think we should limit ourselves to one boat. But if I did the F16 would be one of my choices. I would want to see more of them in the US and more one design fleet racing, but that might come some day.

Bill

Yes, ..... and No at the same time !

Have you ever sailed with a spinnaker on a beach catamaran Pete ?

Find a sailor who knows what he is doing with a cat spinnaker and get a test ride. Then you'll know.

I took a few sailors without any spi experience along, mind you I got lucky with the conditions a few times. About 10-12 knots of wind with flat water. I've could have sold them my spinnaker right then and there, every time. In my personal opinion it is definitely THE game in town.

At my club and even at the bigger events overhere you can see a high convergence towards spinnaker boats. In my club races 85 % of the 10 - 20 boats that regulary compete are fitted with a spinnaker. In bigger national events the ratio is often just as high. The F18's and F20's themselfs make up 2/3rd of any big open class event by now. Then start adding the other spinnaker equipped boats like the Tornado's and you are quickly getting up to 85 %.

Like many others who have expressed the same sentiments, I'm not trading in my spinnaker for anything.

Wouter

There was a spread in Catamaran Sailor about how to build your own Blade, and you can buy the plans from the designer. But if you are a subscriber, I'm sure you know all that. After reading the instructions, I think even I would be able to build a boat -- doesn't sound much more difficult than making a dress.

Mary,
Which issue? (I have only gotten 2- I'm a newbie )
I am fairly certain I can't make a dress...

Seriously, Pete. What are your top 8 to 10 characteristics that you want in a beach cat?

No, but I have sailed a H 18 against another 18 with spinnaker, radical difference!

Guys & Wouter:

Anyone know of a Blade in the Houston area?

Bill:

Can we see your setup when you get it (mounting for A)? What type of boat?

Doug Snell
Hobie 17
Sone to be Nacra A2 or maybe Blade now?
www.tcdyc.com

Doug,

I could mock something up. I have DK17, its a homebuilt design, the bows are similiar to the A2 and the XJ, there isnt a point to the bows, so I cant mount the spin to the point in the bows and need to come up with another solution. But it wont be hard.



Bill

Bill:

Christopher and I may also be interested in your snail (3 or 4 of them). He has been talking to Marstrom, but I think they are to HIGH!!!! They wanted $260 euro ( around $300 right?) for there tacktick carbon compass mount.(200 plus 60 for shipping)

Doug

Bill,




I know, I know. But you know me; I just have to get back with a reply.

So no worries mate. I tried really hard to cut down on the text but I still felt like I failed. So ....





I can understand that. I wrote this in the part that contains my personal feelings/opinions. In effect this means that it is not a qualification of the A-cat that has general validity. It does so for me personally, but I'm completely convinced in other situations the sentiment if directly opposite.

Of course I try to stress my personal sailing scene overhere. Despite the fact that there are about a 100 of them around I don't see them much; I move about in different circles, attent different events, sail most often on the sea.





I know about the simplicity of rigging only a mainsail and the cleanness of the trampoline then. I sail my F16 like that (recreationally) when I have only a little spare time. Often in the summer time I go to the beach at about 7 pm and do a little sail till about 9 or 10 pm. Of course as The Netherlands is so far north that we daylight till very late in the evening.

With respect to One-design fleets, indeed, you are absolutely correct. I just wrote "boring" in my personal appreciation as we have only 3 OD A-cat races per year where I am. The rest is open class. Even 1 of these OD races is nothing more then an Open class start together with the F18's etc where the results are filtered out later. So in my personal stuation (I underline that again) the A-cat does not offer me much in the way of strict OD sailing. Especially not when you have to duck spi poles of some 40 other boats who share the same start and course.

But certainly; situations differ from place to place.

Wouter

1 light weight

2 durability

3 single handed performance

Wouter's gonna kill me! This isn't the same as it was a couple weeks ago~

4 good class participation * this is particularly important, I'd like to be able to gauge my performance against other sailors without needing a calculator.

5 good economics- reasonable going in cost vs resale

6 rig should not be overpowering- I'm not getting any younger.

7 relative ease in rigging up or down

8 peak performance should be in 8-10 knots.

9 the boat has to speak to me. I have to just be able to look at it and think "I REALLY want to do this". Absent that, it's too much work and way too much money!

10 a good balance of camaraderie and competition. Obviously, I like to just sit around and shoot the breeze, as well as sail.

Actually, the same techniques are applied. The building method isn't called "stitch and glue" for nothing !

Wouter

I haven't been keeping track of the Blade F16 sales lately. I know a few were sold but only in two cases I know to were. One of them is :

Tom Shannon Birmingham (AL) : Blade F16 - Delivery in 3/2006


My list for Texas says :

Taipan 4.9 spi #57 (from 1992). Moved from CA to TX in 2005


Doug, best is to contact Matt McDonald at Vectorworks Marine and know for certain.


Wouter

Doug,
$260 Euro = $315 US for a tacktick mount? wow.

Bill

Bill:

I said no way !!! Getting a JCD to mount on crossbar or may make extra mount to go in front of mast if sight is a problem. It was only $35 plus shipping and reacher sheet won't tear it off. I have a squaretop and reacher on 17 that I use tacktick on also. NICE tactical compass and timer too.

Doug

Why would you have to drill holes in your hulls to mount a spinnaker on an A class cat? We were looking at putting a spinnaker on and older A a while back and to mount the spinnaker pole bridle we would have run it from the forestay bridle mounts on the hulls. This works just fine and it means that the spinnaker and all its fittings can be removed without leaving any trace of it ever being there.

Darryl:

That is what I thought. I don't know why Haken did it to his Marstrom. He used ski poles. I would not do that to a beautiful boat like the A2. Really like your Omega!! You guys did a great job. Have any in the US yet?

Doug

Pete:

Check out the new A in the other thread.

http://www.catsailor.com/forums/sho...ed&sb=5&o=&fpart=1#Post67565

Added volume in hulls for us heavy weights and looks a lot like a A2.

Doug

A vs F-16:

Lotus Exige vs Porsche Carrera

Both will get you 'round the track quickly.

Lots of interesting engineering in both.

Neither are as common as Chevys and Fords.

That is the same way that we have the kite set up on the Alpha F14. We knew that it would work just fine as we had previously used the same system on three other cats that we made in the late seventy's and eighties with spinnakers (standard on the 18' and optional on the 5m and the 4,4m).
Regrettably no Alpha F14’s in the states, as yet, we either have to find some one there to build them or hope that the Australian dollar takes a nosedive against the US dollar.

If the A class was to adopt a spinnaker, then no problem to build the boats with holes in the bows like the Marstrom.

I am not a big fan of the snail snuffer..... Tears apart the kite and slower to set / drop.

Why not build a carbon bridle like a NACRA and run a sigle forestay. The bridle will spread the load more on the bows and you can attach the spin pole to it. Run the support lines from the tip of the pole to the outer ends of the bridle and the bridle takes the load. Then include a sock on the pole like other spin cats run.

I too don't see why you'd need additional holes/mounts for the pole bridle. On my Stealth (unlike the other Stealths)the wires for the spin pole simply attach to the existing forestay bridle tangs.

The only holes you'd have to drill would be in the front of the mainbeam to take the pole end fitting and, of course, any holes for the spin fittings themselves. These could be kept to a minimum by sheeting the spin either from the trampoline track or base of the shrouds. The mast fitting could be a dyneema line looped over the top of the mast but you'd still have to drill the track near the top to take the rotation loop.

Stephen,

I seem to remember that Hakan said the snail worked quite well when mounted just in front of the mainbeam. Bad things happened if it was mounted in front of the jib on Tornados..
It makes sense, as the edges/opening/radius of the snail is very similar to the Marstrøm Tornado snuffer.


Wouter or others: what platform will allow my 97kgs to get out on trapeze first?

Reason : The A-cat has a double forestay and so keeping the pole up is an issue. There is no bridle strop to tie a line off to that holds the pole up and because he wanted to use the snail snuffer system he could not have a third forestay that holds up the spi pole, it would interfere with the snuffing operation. Therefor Hakan (and marstrom) uses poles rather then lines. An additional issue with double (triple) forestays is that it can be more difficult to gybe the spinnaker around the stays. And in some cases the twin forestays can prevent the spinnaker from being sheeting in properly. This happens when the forestays are far forward on the boat or when the spi pole is relatively short.

In my experience a single forestay and a mid pole alu ring snuffer system is the best system available. You take a small hit in pointing ability with the midpole snuffer, that is true, but in the way of handling it is more dependable and smoother in operation. It also allows a greater range of sheeting.

Personally I don't ever expect to see double forestays in the F16 class, not even with dedicated singlehander F16 versions. The advantages of improved platform stiffness simply don't outweight the drawbacks in handling. The fact that F16's were always intend to fly a jib helped us out in this respect. Our bows are more then strong enough to take the bridle strop and allows the sailors to keep the single forestay. I don't think this modification can be done on modern A-cats.

Wouter

The 18HT of course
I single hand my 18HT up to 4 Bft.

But I'm sure that you can trapeze earlier on the A-Cat than on the F16 (plattform is wider and has a shorter mast)




copyright pictures: http://www.ehlers-media.com/

I'm not really sure actually. That is when limiting the comparison to F16 and A-cats.

I know for certain that on the downwind legs the F16 will have you trapezing first under spinnaker; as a matter of fact you hardly ever do the wildthing on the F16's, there is always enough power to keep you on the luff hull. Of course when the winds are too light to fill the spi properly then no catamaran will pull 97 kg on the trapeze on downwind legs.

On the upwind however I'm not too sure which of the two will put a man on the wire first (when singlehanding). The A-cat has a taller mast 9 mtr compared to 8.5 mtr but then again the F16 has more sailarea 15 sq. mtr. to 13.7 sq. mtr. These two aspect seem to balance one another quite well. Of course the A-cat is both lighter and narrower as well so maybe the A-cat goes to the trapeze sooner on the upwind legs. Having said this, the F16 comes standard with a double hander mainsail that can be trimmed for singlehanding by making it flatter. So in effect the standard F16 mainsails are cut to pull 120-150 kg on the wire in about 10 knots of wind. This means that a singlehander will be pulled to the trapeze alot sooner, even when the guy is 97 kg's. On the other hand both classes allow the owner to order a mainsail to suit his weight and style of sailing so in effect each boat can be made to pull a 97 kg sailor to the wire at exactly the same moment. So can do this even at quite low windspeeds even, when you are willing to accept that in the stronger winds you'll get hit more.

So I guess it all dependents on what kind of hardware you fly on either boat.

I personally use my doublehander mainsail, cut for 150 kg combined crew weight, both for singlehanded sailing and racing. I notice that I need to depower it pretty soon; I'm 85 kg. Up till now I haven't been able to see on the water when the A-cat could fly and I couldn't. Most often there was too much wind and we were both out; in addition the sailor on the A-cat in my club races is not really of the same sailing skills and he is considerably behind me in the races. Not his fault however. I'm 33 and he is 76 years of age. I have alot of respect that he is still sailing cats at that age. In other races where I shared the same course with A's of skill I was double handing.

Wouter

Rolf,

The only time I've come up against an A in marginal trapezing conditions, it was a 5-6 yr old Unicorn. Wind was about 5 - 8 knots and with the F16 I was out on the trapeze much more than the guy on the A. I'm just over 10 stone and I would guess that the A sailor was over 11 stone but about my height (5' 10").

Don't know if this really helps though..........

OK, I'll ask, for the rest of us who don't throw stones...what does a "Stone" weigh?? (10 Stone = how many Kg or lbs.?)

If I remember correctly, a stone is like 14 lbs.

....... but a rolling stone will give you a hell of a bruise.

14 lbs. = 1 Stone

Sorry guys, showing my age.... I only work in proper measures, can't be bothered with all this new-fangled decimal stuff

Just my 2 groats worth....

A unicorn is quite a bit underpowered compared to a modern A-cat. I think they only have 12 sq.mtr of sailarea and a 8 mtr tall mast. Not too sure wether they are a good approximation.

Wouter

I was indeed wondering about what boat would allow my heavy butt out on the trapeze first, between an A and a F16.
Thank you for the answers. I understand that the question is undecided but pretty similar?

I was pretty certain that it would be the A, as it is lighter and have a longer mast, but what do I know..

In my view the 18HT is a two person boat. If the wind increases, you would be seriously overpowered on it. I 'do' the Tornado solo from time to time, and it's just insane in any kind of wind. Not something I want to risk on a regular basis.

The M-18 Marstrøm used to sell, was that the same boat as his A with longer beams?

Pete:

Maybe I can simplify this for you.

1. If you want the highest quality class racing, no question the A-class is the choice. Other than the Tornado class, you will not see as much depth in any other class. At our 42 boat US Midwinter race week, there were four Olympians (three were medalists), 3 world champions, at least 8 sailors who had won national or North American titles, and then a bunch who have consistently finished in the top echelon of various class championships. The racing is not boring at all!
2. The F-16 is a great package. As a two man sloop, I believe it has the potential with the right sailors to be faster than the F18 except in light air (the F18 pays a big penalty with its weight if the crew is not on the wire). Once the F-16 is powered up, it rolls. The A-cat is always faster upwind but is not as fast downwind in over 6-7 knots. Even though it is lighter, it cannot keep back over twice the sail area the F-18's and F-16's have at hand. If you want a boat that you can race with 1 or 2 persons and really want a spinnaker, the F-16 is probably the better choice for you.
3. An A-cat is as durable as an F-18 or F-16. The boat does not have to built as heavy because the loads are lighter due to the rig and it is designed for singlehanding. I've owned three boats and they were all excellent. You should get easily a minimum 5-7 year competitive life from your investment.
4. The A-class does not want spinnakers for class racing. The racing itself is very tactical without them and the class loves the simplicity. Jennifer Lindsey (an excellent F-16 sailor) got an A-cat because of that simplicity. Yes, spinnaker boats are great (I've sailed many) but I've never found the A-cat boring at all. You really have to put the time in the A-cat to be fast downwind and I love the challenge of refining my downwind technique in the boat. I've toyed with the idea of a spinnaker for my A-cat but am quite happy leaving the boat the way it is. I'd rather have the quick setup and rigging time and focus on refining my boatspeed for class racing which I enjoy the most.

Hope this viewpoint helps.

Bob Hodges
A2 USA 230

Rolf,
I sail the HT singlehanded and its awesome under 10knts - flat water, flying the spin. Every other boat in the harbor is standing still and the HT is cranking along. Very cool.

My only worry is righting it, I cant right it by using a righting line alone. And worrying about doing it with a bag or a pole takes some of the enjoyment out of it, I dont feel like I can press it as hard.

Thats one of the reasons I got the A cat, I wanted to be able to sail it alone, and be able to right it without any worries.


Bill

Wouter
The quite a few of the HT's went with the double forestays and didnt have a problem gybing the kite. Generally the pole is out in front of the bows and the forestays are attached a ways back on the bows, so I dont see how it will be an issue on an 18ft boat - A cat, HT, etc.

It might be an issue on an F16 because you have less bow, perhaps, but on an 18ft boat you wont have a problem. Keep the pole long and the luff long and you wont have to worry about the forestays interfering with the sheeting angle.

As far as keeping the pole supported, I think you could use sticks and mount them over the forestay eyes and make it removeable. This would support the pole and keep it in place without drilling holes in your bows. The other issue is on a modern A cat, the bows dont come to a point (XJ, A2, etc), so there is no perfect mounting spot, so I would move it back to the forestay eyes.

Bill

How 'bout surf? I like to sail at Daytona and would also like to do the JPOR again? Will either of these boats handle open water?

Ok, Tom. Why did you choose the Blade?

2005 version of JPOR: fleet of F16s and at least one A in the fleet (according to the pictures)

http://www.floridamultihullsailor.com/jpor2005_web/JPOR2005_p1.htm

I went F16 for the versatility. My situation was/is: inland lake sailing most of the time (light air/flat water), buoy racing most of the time, no consistent crew on N5.5SL and young kids getting to the age where they'd enjoy sailing (ages 6 and 8). I was looking for these characteristics in a boat (in no particular order):

1. Lightweight, I need to be able to handle the boat by myself (8 year olds aren't that much help) in the water and out of the water (I weigh 155 lbs dripping wet)
2. Able to single-hand easily (even if racing in an F16 fleet). I'd give up 18 inches in mast height to N5.5 Unis from my N5.5 SL-to-Uni set up.
3. Good light air boat, see local conditions above (no class min weight either).
4. Fast out of the box, I don't have a ton of time to tinker (I'd like to but....)
5. Integrated class legal spinnaker
6. Ability to be "Competitive" at coastal regattas/distance racing from time to time. "Competitive" meaning the boat is potentially quick. Crew ultimately decides "competitive".
7. Production built, my wife wouldn't let me take "her" children on any boat I built.
8. Racing centric atmosphere. I enjoy the post race breakdown/bragging sessions as much as the racing. Being with like minded people is fun.

I had a tough time deciding between the Blade F16 and the Stealth F16. Both seem to be awesome boats, but the Blade has a "local" manufacturing presence lending to an assumption that it will proliferate quicker in the US (can you say Alter Cup boat in '07). Theoretically, parts will be easier to get, etc. I still may try the Stealth rudder system on the Blade .

That about sums it up. Thoughts?

Good thread

Pete, if you are ever in South FL area, let me know. I might be able to setup a test sail on the Blade.

Tom:

I've decided on the Blade, just waiting to hear back from Vectorworks.

The versatitility was the biggest factor.
The absolute final point in the decision process was the video, on the F-16 site, of the Blade being sailed solo! The slightly lower cost was also a factor. That difference will go a long way in experimenting with sails! I will still, almost certainly, buy an A cat. Just, not this time around.

Robi:

Thanks for the offer. Hopefully, by the time we set it up, you can give me some rigging tips!

Anyone know how long it takes to get delivery?

Way to go, Pete!!

Pete,

I know you were down at Gulfport Yacht Club last weekend.
I didn't have my Taipan set up, but if you are wanting to sail F16 single handed let me know and come back to the club and you are welcome to take my boat out.
A cat vs. f16 is one thing. Spinnaker vs. non-spinnaker.
No reason to junk up an A Cat with a spinnaker. An A cat is what it is, a perfect single handed boat with no spinnaker. An F16 has pure versatility with a spinnaker.
Let me know and come on down.

Seth

I all dependents on the specific makes of the catamaran. I know of an 18 sq. (also an 18 foot boat) that had trouble sheeting in the spi and I know the I-17 guys overhere changed back to a single forestay. My bridle wires are much further back then those on a FX-one, so I could be fine while the FX-one won't be. There is no general rule that predicts who will have trouble and who won't, dependents on specific implementation.

Also getting a longer pole is not always a solution especially not on an A-cat whose daggerboards were never positioned with a spinnaker in mind. You can upset the balance of the boat.

I'm sure some designs could be in the clear. Nevertheless this problem can arise and has arisen on several boats.

It is definately a thing to keep in mind.

Wouter

That darn F16 will !

Got more then enough hours clocked in the open water by now. Actually only 3 times a year I sail on a lake. All other times (20 to 30 per year) I sail on the north sea and have to go out through the surf. And I do really mean ; A surf.

The jib does help sailing through the surf as you can steer with your sail better. (sheet in with the jib and sheet out with the main to bear away, the opposite to luff up. With a selftacker you just set the jib relatively tight and just sheet the mainsail in and out to head up and down.

I'm riding my hulls onto the beach when the surf is up. I get off as soon as I can after the hulls touch bottom, but I'm not especially careful. By then again, I have timber-epoxy hulls; no worries about making dents.

Wouter

I'm another F16 wannabe that placed his order right after Tradewinds in January. The European Blades are being finalized and I've been told that my boat should be built by the end of March.

I like that decision. I am going to have to move to FL.

Matt is going to be very busy this year between Blade and XJ production. Seems like when I first talked to him last Nov, he was working on a 4 to 6 week delivery - that may have changed, though. I don't want to speak for him.

alright... the next boat I get will be a Blade.. anyone wanna buy a 6.0?

I think it would be a blast to take the blade out solo... taking the 6.0 out solo would be badness (just let the thing sink when it goes over

Pete:

Just got some info from Matt I will email it to you. I may just get the A2 AND a Blade if the money come in OK. They have made some nice changes to the A2 from what I hear. You can now raise the daggerboards with a line. Send me the video in email attachment. You have my email. Are you getting the Kevlar hulls and carbon beams and rudders? Guys are the Pentex sails class legal? I have them on my Hobie 17 (squaretop and reacher) and love them.

Doug Snell
Hobie 17
Soon to be Nacra A2 and maybe Blade too.
www.tcdyc.com

I think the a guys are using carbon sails aren't they? I don't think there are any real limitations on sail cloth in A cats.

I was talking about the Blade. It has an option for Kevlar hulls and carbon beams and rudders. Also a option for Pentex sails.

Doug

Are you the Powerball winner that has yet to come forward?

F16 sail cloth is not restricted. My understanding is that the VM Blade carbon upgrade refers to the foils (daggers/rudders) and tiller assembly/crossbar, not the beams. The boat weighs in a few kgs (2 or 3) above minimum, so the buyer can adjust what he/she sees fit to change. I guess carbon beams could be an aftermarket option.

An un-advertised option for the Blade are the turrets for a 50 caliber found on this VM model: http://www.vectorworksmarine.com/military-article.asp

No Powerball, just some big money coming from other things.

Here is what I got from Matt. It says carbon beams and there is a Pentax sail option. What are stocks? Does that mean carbon mast?

Doug

Vectorworks Marine Inc.

Blade F16 price list Model Year 2006

BLADE F16

Complete Blade F16 Includes, full F16 compliant ready to race boat with: White NPG Iso gel coat
exterior finish, Light weight stiff foam core sandwich construction with fiberglass reinforced
vinyl ester laminate, Large diameter aluminum beams, Fiberglass foils, Composite and alloy stocks
Wing section mast, Colored radial cut main and jib in Race Dacron, Single color spinnaker, Mid-
pole snuffer system with single line control. Full battened jib, Self tacking jib system
Top of the line bearing blocks on all control lines and Premium cordage.

USD $12,900.00

Available Options

Kevlar hulls $700.00
Carbon upgrade (Rudders, boards, stocks and cross bar) $390.00 (When available)
Pentax sail material (Main and Jib) $325.00
Colored Hulls $300 In Stock

Contact factory. Some colors in stock, special order would be $500
Optional 12:1 internal downhaul system $100
Sta-Master shroud adjustment system $35
Trailer (Galvanized steel w/ 12" tires, forward cradles and rear double rollers ) $1,075.00
Composite cradles with IO carpet surface molded for Blade hulls $200.00 Set of 4

$110.00 Pair (Fore or aft)

New for 2006 we have redesigned our lamination system to provide a proprietary contour molded core system for the b
providing core around virtually the entire hull surface. We have fabricated fixturing that creates, in the molding process
hull halves that is more robust and lighter in weight than the traditional taped hull halves. This weight savings has
then been used to drastically increase the density of the core being used to manufacture the boats, significantly improve resistance to denting. The end result of this development is that we have created a hull that weighs the same as before stiff, and damage tolerant.

I think any of you who have looked at new cats realize what an incredible performance VALUE that is.

other than weight, is there a significant difference between the carbon and glass boards etc?

the carbon board should have better stiffness. Flex is bad.

what about durability and the ability to fix dings on your own?
I want one, darn it, but then again, I also want a http://corsairmarine.com/1CorsairSprint750.htm

and in my dream life a corsair 36

They came forward today, 8 meatpackers from Lincoln Nebraska.

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=10000082&sid=ayV.JsBw8dwo

The funny thing is that most lottery big money winners end up worse off than they started.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2005-11-27-lottery-win_x.htm

Doug,

You are really expecting a money ship to come in ! 2 new boats at the same time, WOW ! Personally I would just settle on one, but then I have to safe up for years when buying new toys like this.




The Blade is able to have this system as well. The hull moulds have specialized sections in de daggerboard wells to allow such a system to be fitted. I don't remember whether it is fitted as standard or not. The first Blade to the Netherlands had this system fitted. It is copied from the Taipans (4.9 and A's) which have this system as well.





For the F16's; all sail cloths are legal and therefor also Pentex. F16 class decided not to follow the Tornado and F18 class in limiting the use of sail cloths. In this respect we follow the A-cat class and we will continue to allow all sail cloths; as the A-cat class is expected to do.

I hear alot of good comments on the Kevlar hulls. It gives the lightweight hulls like those of the Blade extra impact resistance and pretty much makes them comparable to hulls of much heavier boats.

Carbon rudders ; nice upgrade. I've seen the rudders that are supposed to go onto the new Blades, I've held the prototypes in my hands and I liked the answers to the indepth questions I asked. I'm not allowed to tell to much about these new developments, so I won't. Matt, vectorworks and the European agent are the official contact points for this. However I'm going to tell that these rudders have quite alot of A-cat class development incorporated in them. As a matter of fact you will be hard pressed to tell them apart.

Carbon beams; I have not heard of this development at all. Are you sure that carbon beams are an option ? I'm sure everything can be done to your boat when you lay extra money on the line but carbon beams is not really something the F16 builders and buyers showed much interest in. In the way of F16 sailing there is not much advantage in having carbon beams neither in platform stiffness nor in weight. Performance difference between alu beams and carbon beams are expected to be completely negligiable when looking at the Blade F16. You can't glue the carbon beams to the hull per F16 rules and this makes carbon beams a whole lot less advantagious. This rule was included in the F16 class rules as otherwise we would have serious troubles selling and shipping the boats internationally. At 2.5 mtr width the F16's will not fit into a container when assembled (glued together); at 2.3 mtr the A-cat can only just be transported assembled this way but only at increased international shipping costs.

Carbon mast, that is allowed in the F16 class and I'm sure on can be had when so desired and when you are willing to pay for the upgrade difference. Nearly all A-cat mast building development is directly applicable to F16 masts as the two classes use the same general mast design and mast/sail behaviour. The crosssection are both of ellipical rather then teardrop shaped form. Both use the flexibility of the top part as an important trimming feature. The two rigs are actually quite related.

Wouter

Doug,

The spec doesn't say carbon beams - the beams are ali.

The carbon option gives you "Rudders, boards, stocks and cross bar" ,

Stocks are the bit that the rudder head pivots in and the 'crossbar' means the tiller bar.

It's still a helluva lot of boat for the money - a really good package at a really good price.

I'd definately go for the Pentex sails (the jib will be fine as it's fully battened) and the Carbon upgrade.

You are getting pretty specific with the rules if this is in the rules, Wouter. What if want to glue my F16 up after I take delivery? Lots of guys "seat" their aluminum beams with epoxy and then bolt them down so the platform is stiffer. How are you going to police this? Make every arrive your regatta's un-assembled? Any extra goop in the beam socket and you're Dq'd?

Are the rest of the rules that picky?

I think vectorworks marine by now has quite some order list they need to work down. The European boats batch should be nearing completion by now if they want to make the delivery date. My info had the European boats production batch scheduled at late januari.

There are still a few US orders ahead of you now, but on the other hand building in batches is very attractive economically. I expect Vectorworks marine to save up all US orders over the last months and the next few weeks and then build them all in one go. As far as I can tell all US buyers heard the same delivery date (late march) and this seems to support the assumed batch job production schedule of above.

Wouter

100% correct. The tiller cross bar is carbon, not the main/rear beams. The tiller extension is a regular Ariba stick, I think.

I wonder who the dope was that wrote this "the new Corsair Sprint 750 takes performance and fun to the next level: it offers all the performance and flexibility of a beach catamaran with none of the annoyances. It won't go into irons, it will tack and go to weather as well as or better than any monohull (and certainly better than any beach cat),"

At least they put a hot chick in the photos.

Bill,

There seems to be a misunderstanding here.

The seating of the beams with epoxy or whatever is NOT considered "glueing" by the F16 class.

Actually all F16 builders use the technique of seating the beams to make the beam/hull joint as stiff as possible. This is actually a good procedure to get the best performance out of the Alu beam setup. We consider this a critical point in the F16 designs. Of course when the beams are seated, the bolts are still needed to secure the beams to the hulls.

Glueing is the technique where the only joint between the beam and hull is the glue and once cured this joint is permanent. In effect this means that the boat can not be dissassembled without taking out a hacksaw or chainsaw and seperating the two parts by destructive means.

The F16 rules state that the beams, hulls and trampoline must be able to be disassembled by non-destructive means. It doesn't state that it must be easy to do so. Effectively this means that seating is therefor allowed, glueing is not. A good knock will release a seated beam when the bolts are undone and right afterwards it can be fitted again in order to make the boat ready to sail. Of course a permanently glued beam can't be dissassembled.

I don't expect any policing issues. Glued in beams are not too difficult to spot, there are tell tale differences in beam landing design, and besides these boats can't be shipped to larger international events anyway as the boat simply won't fit into a shipping container when permanently assembled.

This is also the reason why the builders won't design or supply boats with glued beams; shipping them to the customer is just pain in the neck if not ridiculously expensive.

If think this class rule is actually one of the better F16 rules; it really keeps the cost of an F16 down to a level that is really competitive, without holding back the design in performance in any significant way.


Wouter

Stocks = rudder castings, the things that take the rudder boards themselfs and secure them to the sterns and link them up to the tiller bar. Of course you can't cast carbon so the name had to be changed into something else. The Aussies called these things stocks and so we started calling them that way too.

See below a picture of the AHPC carbon rudder and carbon stock as used on the Taipans. The Blade design uses a similar design. I believe it has been redesigned for the 2006 Blade, so it is different from the early carbon stock option that were delivered with the Blade (2005 and prototypes), Same applies to the rudderboard itself.




Wouter

AFAIK Wouter, these things have been called rudder stocks for many, many years by all english speaking nautical nations.....

My ideal order would look like this :

standard boat (US$ 12,900) with the following upgrades :

Kevlar hulls (US$700)
Pentex sails (US$325)
1:12 Internal downhaul system (US$100)
Sta-Master shroud adjustment system (US$35 ) Because this upgrade is just so darn cheap.

Total; US$ 14,000

They other options are cool, but not really necessary.

I've seen the new alu stocks up close and I would be more then happy to have those on my boat. Carbon dagger- and rudderboards; the difference in performance to plain glass will be really small if any. You really have to be a very skilled sailor to notice the difference at all.


Wouter

There is not much weight difference at all between the two setups. The gelcoat and foamcore make up a large part of the overall weight anyway and these are exactly the same in both version.

An F16 daggerboard will come in at about 1.2 kg = just shy of 3 lbs. As comparison, F18 daggerboards are typically 3 to 4.5 kg (= 7 to 10 lbs)

An F16 rudderboard will come in at about 1.0 kg = just over 2 lbs.

An F16 ruddersetup (alu stock) will typically come in at 5 kg (11 lbs) including 2 stocks, 2 rudderboards, tiller bar and tiller extension. In order to compare, an F18 rudder setup is about 10 - 12 kgs (22-26 lbs).


The real difference between carbon boards and glass boards is the lateral stiffness of the board. This translates into a more crispy feel when steering. It is hard to quantify this difference, but it is certainly not huge. If you have the budget for it then this upgrade won't hurt you, but when pressed this is the first upgrade that I advice anybody to drop.

I personally have the carbon rudder boards and the glass daggerboard. If I would buy anew then I'm not sure whether I would buy the carbon upgrades again.

I hope this helps

Wouter

Should be about the same. Most is just gelcoat repairs and that is the same for both versions. Real laminate repair is beyond most amateurs anyway and even that is not much different between both versions.

Wouter

I've felt the difference between the two foam cores myself. Some development that went into the 2006 Blade F16 model were done here in the Netherlands. I can tell you that the difference is significant. Even the bare foam can't be dented without using a tool like a hammer. After adding the Kevlar (or glass) layer it should be more resistant still.

Vectorworks Marine made a good call here. They could have used the weight savings to produce a boat that would be under minimum class weight, but then you would just have to carry lead under the dolphinstriker to compensate. It is much better to use these weight savings to maximize abuse and dent resistance.

Wouter

Is Vectorworks using the same foam in the XJ and the Blade?

I believe they are using Corecell in the XJ.

Its good stuff.

http://www.spsystems.com/solutions/...cell_A_Foam.pdf#search='corecell%20foam'

Welcome to the club. Make sure you remain in contact with the A-cat as well as the F16 guys, you can learn heaps of trim tips from the A-catters. Alot of tuning for the A will work on the F16 as well as the two rig are closely related.





Actually the orginal designer of the Blade F16 sails his Blade solo ALOT. He really wanted it to be a good singlehander in addition to being a competitive doublehander for this very reason. He really took the double use of it into account when designing, from the ground up.

Wouter

Why can't you accomplish glued in stability with a removable beam along these lines. The beam would slide into a permanently fastened receptor on the hull, it would be supported from all sides but could be bolted in so that the beam could be removed if needed.

If it was a composite beam the end might even have a very slight taper which would further enhance the fit.

Seems like a relatively simple solution of accomplishing both goals...that is the stiffest possible mounting while still allowing the beams to be removed.

Regards,
Seeker

Indeed,

We sought to allow such solutions in the F16 class, that is why we require "the ability to be disassembled without destructive means" and why we didn't outlaw glueing directly.

Wouter

I need to buy an F16 and then glue it together and argue with the Woutmiester on the definition of "destructive means."

I still think thats a silly rule.

Most catamarans are build so they can be disassembled. So why legislate something thats a minority and wont really impact the class?

By the way, I'm in favor of less rules, not more in any class (or government)

What's to be gained from these upgrades, for the average sailor?

OK, our situation, 1,000 of miles from oceans, all inland lakes, predominately medium to heavy air, big wide open lakes where the white caps roll and powerboats too! Short distance between and steep waves prevail.

Are these conditions tolerable for an A cat or F-16? The H16 really hobby horses under these conditions, obviously the TheMightyHobie18 is better, the H20 is best, but all have much more displacement. Does the bouyancy of these new hull designs affect/help performance in the described conditions?

Hell, why not! Everybody else has!

I'm willing to take the chance!

Kevlar adds a very lightweight but strong layer of protection to the hulls, mostly for impact resistance.
Pentex is one of the better laminates in modern sails. Two times the stretch resistance of Dacron and slightly better UV resistance.
The bigger downhaul system makes it easier to use than a lower purchase system and may allow you to apply more downhaul because of that. One of the most important things in modern catamarans is the need and ability to depower your boat when the wind comes up so as to keep it controllable and keeping as much forward momentum as possible. Pulling the downhaul flattens the sail and spills the excess wind off of the top of the fathead sail. More downhaul = more control and faster speeds in bigger winds.
The shroud adjusters allow you to tighten or loosen your stays without having to take the pins out. This makes it much easier to adjust your rig for wind conditions, sail plan, and crew weight.
If you are going to be racing at all and you can swing it all of those options will make your boat a better investment and a better sailing craft.
Good luck,

Bill,

You making a rather silly assesment here.




Both A-cats and F16's are nothing like most catamarans, you after all you should know that.

A large portion of the A-cats are glued together, if not all new A-cats sold. Doing so with F16's would have seriously impeded, if not totally halted, the establishment of the F16 class.

It is one of the best rules we ever included. The builders were quite happy with it.

Wouter

That exactly the right describtion for it. Average sailor (or rather average racer). For the all out obsessed race all upgrades are attractive, but for the more average joe truly only a smaller selection is.


-1- Kevlar hulls (US$700)

I have it from various sources that kevlar hulls are the best lightweight hulls in the way of abuse resistance. One such source has been working professionally on A-cats fro many many years; a second source was actually the first builder to have included kevlar in their boats; also a guys with heaps of experience in boat building, boat repair and development.

From personal experience with working with Kevlar I know that the stuff is insanely resistant to rupture and damage. You can't break or tear pieces off; something you can do with plain glass and carbon. Carbon as a matter of fact can even act quite brittle, glass will bend and flex a little, Kevlar beats both at this game.

With lightweight hulls to balancing act is always between strength, stiffness and abuse resistance of the hulls. I PERSONALLY feel that kevlar has the right balance here resulting in a lightweight hull that is sufficiently stiff and more then sufficient abuse resistant, if there is such a thing as sufficient abuse resistance ! Of course more resistance is always welcome.


-2- Pentex sails (US$325)

The other post by Lance covers this pretty well. In addition is looks good as well, modern. Having said this I believe that a high quality dacron is not to be discarded too quickly either. HQ dacron will produce very long lasting sails with ample speed. For recreational sailing dacron could well be the better choice. For racing Pentex is just a little more promising although I have gotten my butt kicked by HQ dacron sails plenty of times. We are talking final bits of a few % performance here. Important if you are a top of the line racer, not nearly as important if you are a sub topper or a joined recreational sailor/club racer.

In addition, I feel pentex has the right amount of sensitivity to trim without being overly sensitive, something I feel other modern sailcloths have, like monofilm. You want the sail to stretch a little. No stretch will again make optimal tuning and trimming very difficult.


-3- 1:12 Internal downhaul system (US$100)

The best downhaul system I ever used especially when solo sailing. It is fitted internally in the mast so your mast looks really clean and the blocks/lines are well protected from the weathering. The last will maintain optimal operation through hard use and long times. Doing repairs on it (much less often then other downhaul systems) is actually not a difficult or time consuming task. You can take the whole system out, do your thing and put it back in inside 60 to 90 minutes, that is when working at a normal relaxed pace. But I can assure you that this system will only need very very little maintenance or repairs. One in every few years at the most.


-4- Stay masters.

I have got a better system on my own boat, but the next best thing are the stay-masters. In principle the staymasters allow you to quickly adjust shroud tension and mast rake with the sails up and the boat fully rigged. This way it is very easy to adjust these settings between races or when switching from racing solo to doublehanded or in reverse. For recreational sailing you can leave mast rake as it is, but for some highly competitive racing the adjustment of the mast rake can just get that extra bit of balance into the boat and win you several boatlengths. And of course this upgrade is darn cheap, you can't buy staymasters for such low cost as aftermarket items.

Wouter

Thanks Lance and Wouter!

Now I just have to shake my piggy bank and she how much falls out!

Ok guys, I'm gettin' ready to call Matt and place an order. Anything else I should know before I smash my piggy bank?

remember the midget discount!!

What midget?

btw- I'm going to take your earlier advice and visit a few "private" sailing locations just to see if there is any public access.

I may take you up on that!

Just tell him Robi sent you. LOL

welcome to the group

Would this be a good time for a plug for the Gulfport (Fla) F-16 and A Class Invitational? April 1 & 2.

http://www.gulfportyachtclub.com/id31.html

Ed

I would say that that is definately the case :


It was just posted on the F16 forum that :"... looks like we are going to have somewhere between 6 to 8 F16's ... I have just got confirmation that Hollis Caffe is attending with his Taipan. That is 6 that I know are coming. "

The F16's will race in a mixed singlehanded/doublehanded fleet without any handicap calculations, so the order on the finish line is also the final order for the points. Just as the F16 class is intended to be raced when not part of a larger open class fleet.


I'm sure the A's will have 10 or more boats as in the previous years. Right now 6 A-cats are listed as registered. More will certainly register in the weeks to come.

It is looking to be a very enjoyable event again. Just like the former 2 times it was held.

Wouter

I thought that when most sailers "shake the piggy bank" all they got was cobwebs?

If anyone has better ideas...I'm listening.

There's plenty of room for cobwebs now!

Does anyone have rigging tips for the F-16 solo? On the H-17 I kept my rig noticably looser than other 17's. That resulted in very good performance to weather, but dismal downwind performance.

What are the tactics when sailing in a mixed fleet of A's and 16's?

Is there an established etiquette when sailing near A's?

In the past, I mostly just ignored boats other than my class, and kept clear air.

How much for 2 extra feet of hull?

There's one in every crowd!

> Is there an established etiquette
> when sailing near A's?

As it happens there is: stay behind them.

Pete, Be nice and wave as they blow by up wind.

Theres more than one in this crowd, after all I didnt even mention midgets.

What is this thing with midgets!!

Tad just seems to have got it into his head that you can only sail F16 if you're small.
He is of the 'bigger is better' view. But we all know that it's not size that matters - it's how you use what you have!

Yeah right - keep drinking the Wouter cool-aid.

Size only matters when you are talking about the direct correlation between water line length and speed, or the fact that catamarans suffer more due to added weight (crew weight) and a longer water line would support added weight better. Or that longer is better in waves, especially short steep waves we most likely sail in close to shore. And lets also remember that all cats could use more bow upwind and down.

So yes size does matter. But so does weight. And right now the F16 wins because it is light. But watch out for the lightweight 20 footer than can be single and double handed, has a spin and is way faster than a F16, and can carry weight better and is better in waves than a f16 could ever hope to be.

Sorry to rain on the F16 love fest, but it's not the be all, end all and size does indeed matter.

Etiquette: As in: Protocol or Manners

Since I sail with crew, Protocol dictates that I have the crew go into distraction mode with the A sailor, especially if it is Lucky Duck. Like: Oh look an Eagle, or how was your day honey, or hey your chutes dragging in the water. As for the manners side of this, well perhaps our manners would apply if we were ever a lap ahead, however this has not been my experience to date. Maybe this season we'll get the chance to be a lap ahead and will show some restraint. FEAR the Duck!

Hmmm, I thinking that throwing a beer to the A sailor might help.


Pic is of Lucky Duck Showing his form, Nice!

This would certainly but a damper on the love fest that is F16, but it would also kill the entire F18 fleets and I20 Fleets. That adds up to a ton of boats out of service/not competitve. Do you think PC and H would let that happen? Probably not. It is too easy to build heavy boats.

Duck:

Things didn't change much while I was away!

Bill:

How many fingers is considered nice?

> Protocol dictates that I have the
> crew go into distraction mode with
> the A sailor

I was talking to a couple of Dart 18 sailors (I think) a few years ago and they told me one of their tricks was: when behind another boat on a really light wind day, throw a clevis pin or something up into their sail, then enjoy the fun and sail past them while they are worrying about whether or not their mast is about to fall down...

Colin; That's Not nice! In the old Hobie days, a lot of guys would "clink" the dog bones together. It's impossible to ignore that sound!

1 finger means "I think you are #1" (I get this a lot)

2 fingers mean "peace, groovy and I smoked too much pot in my life"

3 fingers means "I'm a redneck and I live in Texas"

4 fingers means "Ive lost my thumb in a horrible accident and its really nice to see you."

Its also getting easier to build light boats as you are proving with the F16. And people want lighter boats.

Humm, there seem to be a few really sour people around since the A-cat discussion has dwindled somewhat in favour of the F16 thread. "Wouter Cool-aid", "boat for midgets", "you can't see the servo's", "F16 love fest", "watch out for the ultimate 20 footer", etc, etc.

The level of fear or resent seems to be enormous; F16 must be doing something right !

Wouter

Wouter:

My body weight, mentioned in another thread, was the biggest reason I didn't get an A cat this time around. But, I personally love the concept and execution of the A cat. I'm gonna have one some day!

Someone once said of fly fishing, "It isn't the most efficient way to catch fish, but it is the most elegant." That's the way I feel about the A cat.

-1- Don't try to point with the A's. F16's like to be footed off and achieve high vmg by boatspeed rather then pointing.

-2- On the start line luff them up. The new A-cats with their flat keel lines and narrow daggerboards tend to have a high rate of drifting downwind. The F16's suffer less from this. So the A-cat has to luff but can't, when he fails to stay clear then protest them out of the race. Ignore the frantic shouting of the A-cats sailor; if he (or his boat) can't handle the heat on the start line then he should start on the second row.

-3- When passing an A-cat do it through its lee, through its windshadow. For one thing they don't have much windshadow at all and they often very unwilling to bear away and defend their position. A-catters are pointing addicts. Best manouvre is to threaten to pass them on the luff side, they think "What, passing ME on the luff ? I'll show him some pointing" then when they luff even more bear off rapidly and blast through their lee and luff up again giving them bad air. Don't forget to keep footing and go for speed. A-cat sailors often won't follow and return to his first instict which is pointing giving you clean air again.

-4- Sail deep and fast downwind under spinnaker. Heat up till you lift your windward hull and then mildly steer down and keep the hull flying while making a deep pointing angle. Ignore the A-cats totally on this course UNLESS you can cover them with your spinnaker windshadow briefly. As a result they will fall of the wildthing groove and have to start all over again. This is a major setback; they have to point up high again and gain speed before they can get into the groove again.

-5- Let the A-cats go on the first upwind leg and try really hard to overtake them on the first downwing leg. If you round C-mark first then they have to work through your dirty air and overtake you. Don't point above your optimal VMG angle, which is lower then the A's. If they are close enough then they will eventually overtake you no matter how high you try to point. The trick is NOT to defend your position; it is to make them loose as much speed as you can by giving them dirty air. The A-cats need to win the race on the upwind legs; if you can have them sail a less then perfect upwind leg then you hit them where it hurts most. By the next downwind leg you will pass them sooner and extend your lead.

-6- Learn to ALWAYS, ALWAYS, ALWAYS pull a spinnaker on the downwind legs. Especially learn to do so in big wind. You won't believe it but this is major winner. The spinnaker stabilizes the F16 when overtaking ways in a huge way. The A-cats will try to ride the waves but will have to be careful not to trip on them. Their large squaretop heads can easily push them over when they drive into the next wave to hard. In contrast the F16 under spinnaker can be driven quite hard through the waves. Hull length has nothing to do with it, it is all due to the F16 driving deeper courses and the way the spi affects the saildrive and aerodynamics of the rig. In big wind you can sail really deep under spi when singlehanding and really fast when double handing, both make really good VMG.

-7- Protest any proposal to have a single lap race with an upwind finish. Sometimes the A-cat sailors really campaign for a triangular course in addition to this. Their reasoning is simple; they want to make the time spend on upwind legs as big as possible while not giving any spi legs away to the Formula boats. You want plain windward-leeward courses, with a downwind finish or a finish that is on a (broad) reach from the C-mark. You also want more then 1 lap, but nor more then 3 laps.

-8- If you are confronted with a triangle course then don't sail straight for the B-mark as the A's will be doing. Find a course that will make you go fastest and that is not too far above the rumbline. Then well before you get to the mark you'll arive at a point where you can bear down significantly and pull a spinnaker while later still clearing the B-mark. Do that. You'll be doing alot of speed under spinnaker and pulling a huge windshadow. Everybody below you will get dirty air and passing you will be as good as impossible. In addition to this you'll cover the A-mark to B-mark distance quicker then you would by sailing a straight line to the B-mark and only pull a spi afterwards. It will take a little training to get the course right but after that this approach is a winner. Especially when doublehanding.

-9- Under spinnaker then keep your individual legs shorts, stay in the middle of the course and gybe more then once. It is extremely easy to overstand the bottom mark under spinnaker'. Don't try to make the leg from A-mark to C-mark with only 1 gybe. Chances are you will overstand the mark and even have to douce the spi before you reach the C-mark. This is all very bad. Non-spi baots like the A-cat will typically go to outside of the course more. Make it their risk, by dominating the middle with your windshadow and speed.

-10- When finishing on a course with a (Broad) reach after the C-mark then try to keep you spi up all the way to the finish, this is one of the most spectacular legs on a spinnaker boat. For this reason it requires some skill in spinnaker sailing when the wind is above 14 knots but it can be done very well below 14 knots and after some training. You won't loose any time doucing the spi sail and when done right you'll blast across the finishline. Áim to just clear to leeward finish bouy. When you are too low then in the final meters let the spi flap and head up to finish on a beam reach. This is an emergency trick but will work quite well when you have too. You correct quite some distance to the line that way if you were to low to clear the bouy.

-11- When doublehanding, work that spi and go for speed. When singlehanding find a good spi setting and steer to keep it well filled and your luff hull just above water. Go for single trapeze only when doublehanding unless you are looking at 20 + winds and you really have to stay high to clear a mark or whatever. When singlehanding then going to the trapeze under spinnaker is a huge speed boost, but in a good breeze this will be the stuff for more experienced singlehanded spi sailors. No problemo though, as pinning yourself on the luff hull and sailing deep will work quite well. Build your experience up by sitting in even in 20 knots and when more comfortable with the spi in all conditions then move to the trapeze.

-12- When you overstand the mark then don't try to head up beyond the optimal spi course to make the gate. Gybe towards to mark and keep going for optimal downwind VMG, as long as you are going in the general direction of the gate (bottom mark) then you'll be alright. Then when the mark is just below a beam reach, douce the spi and cover the final distance by reaching at full speed. You'll cover more distance but you'll be faster then pointing high under the spinnaker. It is better to end up perfectly at the bottom makr under spi but the hit is not too big if you correct your earlier overstanding mistake this way. Basically this also means that you can opt to go wide at the bottom mark when it is crowded, this is especially handy when singlehanding.

-13- Practice on the spinnaker hoists and douces, you can win many boatlengths with this.

Next post :

the answer too

The Duck got busted.

http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/0224061monroe1.html

I've heard that story in one form or another many times, and my usual response is to refer the teller to rules 2 (Fair Sailing) and 69 (Gross Misconduct).

Regards,
Eric

Here is the Duck I was referring to. Please don't let his docile posture fool you; he is a hull flyer to be feared!

Flatlander,

I used to own a Prindle 16 catamaran for many years, it was my first boat. I sailed it alot on the North Sea here in Europe which is typically between 6 and 12 mtrs deep with strong tidal currents and some good sized chop is worked up when the tide is against the wind. It was often a big challenge keeping the Prindle 16 calm and ride the waves well; there were many times that we cursed the waves and they would very often bring the boat to almost a full stop. I know the feeling of hobbiehorsing very well. I don't know how this compares to your conditions but I can tell you that my switch to the F16 (I had other boats in between) was a huge step up. Riding the waves well is still a skill that is needed by the modern hull shapes just cut through the water so much better and they loose so much less speed while doing so. In this way there is not much difference between any modern boat you compare to the oldies like the Prindle 16 and Hobie 16. F18, A-cat, F16, I-20 you name it they sail just significantly better.




In my opinion : yes.

The newer hull designs are noticeably better in such conditions.

Wouter

How about 19', 280 lbs, with an optimal crew weight of 340lbs?

Ultimate 20/19/18 footers killing off the F18 and or F16 classes ?

I seem to remember that we saw the M20 (faster and 120 kg), CFR20 (faster and about 120 kg as well), Taipan 5.7 (faster and 135 kg), F18HT (faster in some conditions and 130 kg), Ventilo 20 (faster and 150 kg), 20HT (still in prototype stages), M18 (faster and 80 kg), 18 sq.mtr. (faster and 80 kg), eagle 20 carbon (faster and 120 kg) and probable one or two more.

None of these design were able to compete in any meaningful way and none show any current potential to do so in the future.

Seriously, we've seen many tries and all failed.

Neither the F18 class or F16 class is losing any sleep over it. People think that designing the ultimate lightweight 20 footer and establishing it as a popular class is something else then extremely challenging. Remember that even Marstrom had to raise the minimum weight of the M20 from 108 kg to 120 kg because of breakages.

The only two new classes to have emerged in the last 10 years and show GLOBAL growth (meaning beyond the "prototype + some locally sold") stages are the spitfire and the F16 class (almost one and the same class). Both I-17 and FX-one have a small and very localized fleets in respectively US Great lake states and Northern Europe but nothing outside of it. Before this decade we saw the F18 class and F20 classes established in the early 90's. All other classes are before that time and only the H16, tornado and A-cat seem to be surviving after the introduction of the F18/F20 classes.

Of course in these 15 years many more new classes were formed and promoted but none of them make it to global growth. This is how difficult it is to make a new design and class a succes.

And the established classes know this, that is why none are worrying about any "ultimate" this or that.

Wouter

Most likely due to the $$$$$..... After all it is hard to justify the $$$$$$ for one of these for most people...... After all, for most it is only a hobby and many have the financial pressures of a mortgage, marriage and kids

Yes, I believe for most of us it is more about money than "Ultimate Performance". And as we saw with the Inter 20 class here in the States, too many boy-girl crews think a 20 footer is just "too much boat", thus they are moving to the f18, even though it is rated slower than the 20, and just as heavy, and nearly as expensive, actually more expensive really, if you are comparing a new F18 ($15,000) to a used I20 ($10,000).

Here's how we do it in America: http://www.break.com/index/snlnarnia.html

Like he says, "It's all about the Hamiltons!" (Hamilton's picture is on our $10. bill)

You are probably correct, but what ever the real reasons is (are) there is no serious danger that such a design will start a revolution in the beach cat sailing scene or affect the growths of the current formula classes.

Wouter

I think when ever some new person enters an activity, there are two basic questions they ask: Can I do this? (do I have the strength and ability) and Can I afford this?

That is why the H16 class thrives. More people can afford it and do it.

The further you move away from the H16 class, up the pyramid of cost and complexity, the fewer sailors are able to both afford it and "do" it. When you get to the top of the pyramid, (the Tornado class for example) there are very few sailors who have both the money and ability to be sucessful racing it. The rapid growth of the F18 is due to it being somewhere in the middle, between the H16 and Tornado. And more numbers attract more sailors to the class. To a man, each one of the Florida Inter 20 sailors who are now racing F18's say the same thing: "I like the Inter 20 better as a boat but the F18 has more boats at the regattas." They would rather sail in a larger fleet than on a faster boat. Therefore I do not see any hope for an "Ultimate 20 footer" (costing what, $20-30K?) making any signifigant dent in the F18 market. I won't have an F18 for one reason, I sail alone alot more than with crew.

I still love the spinnaker and the A cats are just too much money for me. Therefore, in my case, the F16 makes perfect sense, but that's just me. Thank God we are not all the same! I don't think I could stand bumping into -me- all day!

Of course a new F18 is going to cost more than a used F20. It is a supply demand thing - There is no meaningful class and that will kill any boat's resale value. How do they compare new vs new???

Btw - I would love to go F20 racing but the costs are prohibitive at the moment.

Tiger Mike

Me...."I like the Tornado better as a boat but the F18 has more boats at the regattas." spot on there mate

Heh? You're comparing used boat pricing vs. new boat pricing? A new N20 is in the $19k range while the F18s are floating around the $14.5 to $15.5 mark. Apples to apples. Used N20s can be had for $8k to $11k - same goes for used F18s.

Well, the advice is to stay out of F20 racing for now and first see where the class is going. It is on a delicate balancing act as a direct result of Nacra deciding to pull out of the F20 class. Right now it can go either way; meaning one possible course is dying.

A short while ago Nacra decided to place their Inter-20 out of the F20 ruleset by entlarging the mainsail to US specs. The other factors were the F18 Worlds being held in NL in 2005 and the fact that F18 is a much stronger class with progressingly faster boats while the F20 is somewhat stationary. It is my opinion that the F20 class has reached negative critical mass about 6 to 12 months ago. This means that they are into a selfpropelling decline.

As stated above one of the factors was the Dutch F18 worlds. This saw an important group of F20 sailors move to the F18 class; the newer F18 designs also carry weight better so now that they are there they are not expected to move back to the F20 again. The development in the F18 class was making the gap between F20 and F18 smaller and smaller performancewise. In addition the US sailor prevent consilidation of the F20 class by refusing to play by the F20 rules, in effect the F20 class never made it outside of Europe, or more precise North-West Europe as France never got on the F20 wagon. The nacra builder and importer was then faced with a defacto split situation. They opted for some reason to go onto the offensive (understandable) and force all Inter-20 to a single setup the world over. They gambled on the US I-20 setup and so disgarded the European F20 setup for the non-F20-compliant US I-20 setup. This is pushing another round of Eu I-20 sailors towards the F18 class. At the same time F18 racing is growing in the US, and into a large part out of US I-20 sailors. It is quite possible that the builder/importer decided to gamble on the wrong horse. They rocked the boat with respect to a reasonable well established Eu F20 fleet in favour of a contracting US I-20 fleet.

I personally don't fancy the chances of the new nacra 20 (former US I-20) fleet as a One-design class. I don't think the European sailor is interested in OD classes at this time, in addition the US sailor is leaning more and more towards the (non OD) F18 class. In effect a similar trend.

I'm personally all for allowing classes to develop and upgrade themselfs, however you must time these developments carefully. Now it may have been the case that they saw a serious problem ahead when staying F20 and that breaking out provided better chances, in such a case this move would be smart. Time will tell if it was.

Stay tuned !

Wouter

You both loose guys !

new N20 - $19k range
new F18s $15k range to $15.5 mark.
older second hand N20/F18 - $10k range


New F16s - $13k range (and lower doctor bills by avoiding a hernia !)
older second hand F16's (taipans)- $7k range

Wouter

It amazes me that anybody can afford to buy any of the modern cats, new or used!
It's not hard to understand why the overall number of sailors is not increasing (and is probably declining)

It seems like I would be happy with an older, cheaper, boat if I just didn't read this forum so obsessively!

Exactly my toughts also Mary!

As for the F20 class ("negative critical mass" Wouter, that must be an oxymoron if I ever heard one), I think they never reached critical mass. Should have widened the rules so more boats could be grandfathered, but it's never easy to set the limits..

Jake, a 4 year old Inter 20 could still win a national championship. Can you say the same thing about a 4 yer. old Tiger or Nacra F18? That is the only problem with Formula vs. One Design racing. Formula boats can (and will) change/improve every year, the Inter 20 is still using the same mast, hulls, boards, since 1998.

I know what you are saying, and I agree, a NEW I 20 is more expensive than an new F18, which I'm sure also has alot to do with many I 20 teams getting into F18's. The fact still remains, a Used Inter 20 is faster and cheaper than a new F18, that is the point I was making. Aples to Oranges I know, but I prefer Oranges (faster, cheaper boats).

One other thing, why is there no F18 class in the Tybee race? See?? They would rather race the I 20 in the ocean. Most of them will be on older boats but still faster and cheaper than a new F18.

Talk about thread creep, this was supposed to be about the A cat vs. the F16!

As F18 has barely been around here for 4 years, it's hard to say if one might win a world championship. But you can probably bet that the sailor "Type A's" with the ability to win a championship will be on a shiny new boat year after year. Therfore you can't really proove it or use results as evidence. You guys (most of whom don't race F18) get SOOOO caught up in the differences of the boats and assume that it leads to a huge difference in performance. If you actually got out there and sailed at a Nationals or regional event, you would find that the equipment is a miniscual part of the equation. Developments will come and might make that 1-2% difference but how many of you are sailing to 99% of your potential?

As one person who sails both platforms (including N20's in the Tybee) I think it's only a matter of time before an F18 fleet assembles for the Tybee500. It's going to take an F18 person to act as a catalyst and some effort on part of the race committee. I would sail my F18 in the Tybee500 but will agree that the I20 is a bit more "off road ready" platform for this race. I sail the I20 in the race because it's the largest (only) class and I've been fortunate enough to have access to a boat.

A new sunfish...$3300.00.

13k? euros, maybe

Actually it makes sense for Nacra to standardize the mainsail size. The F20 class was dead, and so this standardization would creat a stronger worldwide class.

Also, hasn't Nacra petitioned to ISAF to adjust the F20 class to meet this spec?

It would be very easy for other builders to comply with the spec as well... just a new main, which people get every year or two anyway. If the F20 class is dead, its because of the cost of the boats compared to F18, and that you require 2 strong people, vs F18 which doesn't require as much physical strength.

A cat vs F-16?
The A cat has a class with active racing in the US.
The F-16 is still working on it.
It's that simple.

Re. cost: A new "Full Race" Opti will set you back $3,500, no trailer! A new Full Race Laser is about $5,000. I bought a used Hobie 18 for $750, a used Hobie 14 for $500 and a used Pridle Escape for $500, and each of them came with a trailer. None of them would be competitive for racing however, each was cheaper than my used Laser. ($1,000) I think the new prices of the Inter 20 just put that boat out of reach for many of us, just like the new A cats. $20,000 is a lot of dough to sneak past the wife! Maybe after the kids leave...

Yeah, that, too. 50 percent increase in price in the last 10 years. And the price of a Laser has increased at least as much and probably more, percentagewise.

In those two cases it can't be due to improved technology and higher building costs. So do the prices of the boats go up due to decreased demand; or is the demand decreasing because the prices of boats have gone up?

I guess that is an age-old economics question, and I sure don't know enough to answer it.

And Hobie Waves are a best-seller for Hobie Cat, and yet their price also has increased by at least 50 percent since they were introduced. I just don't understand any of this economics and marketing stuff.

For starters $3,300. in 2005 is equal in value to $2652.37 in 1995.

I was wrong. We paid $1,800 for a new Sunfish, and that was in about 1997.

But what I don't understand is how people's incomes can be going up as fast as the prices of boats.

I'm think one may benefit the other.

huh-uh !

fully fitted doublehanded race ready Blade F16 with an Ullman suit of sails = 12.900 US$


A full Blade F16 price list was given earlier this week in this very thread. Follow the link :

http://www.catsailor.com/forums/sho...view=expanded&sb=5&o=14&vc=1

You should have done your homework better.

People's incomes are not going up as fast as boat prices, that is why racing sailboats is on the decline I think. The middle class is being outsourced, so I expect you will see more downward pressure on middle class incomes.

OR, maybe it's that for the $19,000 of an A2 cat you could buy two $8,000 jet ski's, a trailer and have $2,000 gas money left over.

OR, as my son would prefer: two $6,000 Motocross bikes, a trailer and have $6,000 left for gear and spare parts!

OR, four $4,000 four wheelers, a trailer and gear for the whole family to ride.


OR, you could buy an Airplane!
http://www.barnstormers.com/

click on Search, type in "Pietenpol"

Of course all those things are going to cost you more after the purchase, just because they need gas to operate, and more in maintenance, but then you have to buy new sails if you are going to race, right?

There are lots of other things you can do with that kind of money, that the rest of the family could actually participate in, and you can do them even if there is no wind. Except for the airplane, they are quicker to learn, much faster than racing an A cat or Inter 20.

As boat prices continue to climb, I don't think you will see more people sailing, probably less, unless the price of gas goes so high that the motorized sports are just too expensive for the average family of 4, which could happen this summer if we get a couple more hurricanes in the Gulf!

Hey Wouter.... TAKE YOUR F-16s TO YOUR OWN THREAD...........

Uhh... hang on forget what I said

Carry on

T_A:

Not sure if you caught on yet, but F16 is the latest strain of virus that infects every single possible thread on the open forum.

So far no known removal tool has been able to deal with it, as it appears to be rampantly infectious and insidiously annoying.

It does, however, respond poorly to sarcastic humor, to which it responds very defensively.

Carry on.

F16's is the coolest concept on the planet, I'm placing my order with Vectorworks now for 2 of them.

You can get an A cat for much less than $20k

Used min weight - couple years old in great shape $10k - $15k
New XJ $16k -$17k (ok not much less, but less)
An over min weight A was for sale in Newport last year for $3k. That had a Hall mast that was worth $2k at least.
You could have lightened this boat up for the cost of new daggerboards, easy and cheap.

Look around, lots of A cats trading hands for lots less than $20k.

Bill

Eyh, Maughan, you just implied that catsailing is the operating system equivalent to MS Windows becouse viruses pop up everywhere and can't be removed without installing (at least the nasty ones). If compared to operating systems, catsailing at least must be linux or perhaps MacOS. Cool, adaptable, fast and affordable (having just ordered 60 MS Office licences), quite secure and easy to run once you know how to. In that setting, the F-16 class clearly is the "Thunderbird" browser.
Dont know what the Tornado class would be if it was an application in the same setting tough. Word Perfect perhaps?

"Camelot is such a silly place, lets not go there." Clikety-clop clikety-clop clikety-clop etc..

I would tend to agree with that. It's like having four boats in one. Majorly versatile.

Any F16's in northeast US?

Anyone willing to take me for a spin when it warms up? I will reciprocate with my toys, A cat, F18HT, and others.

email me wjvining at yahoo dot com

"We are the Borg .. ehhh .. F16 class."

"F16 will copy your better features into it own design, enhancing its supremacy."

"Resistance is futile; prepare to be assimilated"

Wouter

Woter, Do you ever wonder why people get mad at you?

See : http://www.frappr.com/formula16classgroup

... and growing

btw : the 4 Taipan+spi boats in maryland Virginnia are not on the map as of yet.

Wouter

"Woter, Do you ever wonder why people get mad at you?"

"Joke" as defined by Webster’s New World Dictionary. (1) Anything said or done to arouse laughter. (2) A thing done or said merely in fun.

Personally, I thought it was pretty funny...and drew a good parallel to the sailing community. Status Quo does not really exist…something is either growing (assimilating) or dieing (being assimilated).

Regards,
Seeker

Constantine was second in one of the WRCRA Tuesday night series this year.

I too was quite pleasantly surprised to discover that Wouter has something approaching a sense of humour! - but then, with the amount of abuse he's taken over the last few years, he'd have to have, wouldn't he?

Maybe we should name an award after him, for the most persistent sailor. Call it the "Golden Wouter". As in, gee, did you know that guy has a golden wouter!

Wow...the F-16 sounds great. Single hand option. Double hand option. Fly a chute, race uni-rig. Except for one except: Is there a class here in the States?

I gave up my I-20 (great, GREAT boat) for an A-class (great, Great boat, with no chute) One reason for the change was the ability to race in a fleet. I like the idea of the F-16, BUT I suppose I would race a sabot if there was a fleet of those around.

Are any A-cats thinking of making the switch? Or getting into the F-16 in addition to the A class?

Just wondering?

Michael

I was hoping, that over time, we'd kinda just meld together.

btw- anybody have any tips on down wind sailing, my performance really sucks!

We are have seen several sailors switch. In both directions actually and in equal numbers too.

Often because they wanted to take their kids along or do spinnaker sailing (going for F16), or because they wanted to get into A-cat racing.

Personally I expect to both win sailors from the A-cat class as loose sailors to the A-cat class. It is a natural thing for people to transition from one class to another when their personal circumstances change. It is the same in catamaran sailing and there is nothing bad about it, although some people seem to make alot of fuss about that.

I don't know many people at all that keep both a F16 and an A-cat. I know of 2 persons who do but they are both boat collectors. Mostly; the owners gravitate to one boat over the other. The two boats seem to cater to different wish lists and that seperates them enough to eventually favour the one over the other (either way)

Personally I love to see both classes co-exist. I love the upcoming GYC A-cat/F16 invitation regatta. It will be the 3rd in the series (2004, 2005, now 2006) and shows both classes getting along quite well. (as well as proving that an US F16 class exists !)

Good luck

Wouter

Remember, you must give the boat above the ability to keep clear; you cannot just luff up at will.

There is here in Florida!

See http://www.frappr.com/formula16classgroup

This is all my opinion, not based on any empirical evidence. F16 class membership is growing world wide. US class membership growth is attributed to Taipan sailors converting their rigs to F16 and the addition of a US based F16 builder. The largest concentration of US F16 sailors are located in the Southeast, the home of the US Blade F16 builder (Titusville, FL).

In my opinion, the next two years will be critical for the F16 class in the US. The availability of boats (new and used) will increase dramatically/percentage-wise, but will it happen soon enough to take advantage of the current high level of interest in the F16 concept? I hope so.

17 boats between Florida and Alaska. Its a start but you have not even reached the 18HT level yet. I think all the hype is a little premature.

It is not prerequisite to join frapper prior to the delivery of your boat , but you are correct - there is a lot of work to be done in the US. I think the F16 concept is a solid one, it will take time. IMHO, the biggest problem is the lack of used boats that are available. Hopefully, churn will take place over the next few years and people can get involved without going "new".

wow,

I can be a little critical of the F16's from time to time but this guy is just a douchebag about it.

You're one cool dude....:rolleyes:

Churn on, boys, churn on.

Think what you want about Wouter, but if it were not for him, nobody would have ever heard about the F16 Class.

He believes in the class and has been willing to take the heat for being unrelentingly and unapologetically aggressive in promoting it and has not given up.

Other classes, both one-design and formula, should be so fortunate as to have someone like that as a catalyst.

I have my differences with him and his policies and politics and class rules, but the bottom line is that he has put the F16 on the map. Except for the A-Class and the Formula 18 Class, I don't see anybody else doing that to promote their class.

In fact, I'm kind of embarrassed that we don't use this web site more to promote the Wave Class, which can take the babyboomers into a whole new realm of competition.

Churn on, boys & girls, churn on

There actually over 30 F16 boats in the USA now and soon we add the 12 boats for the 2007 Alter Cup to that. I say the future is looking pretty rosy. The fact that F16 boats are "making class" at recent events like Tradewinds and showing up in race results regulary proofs that we have passed the 18HT class by considerable margins. Haven't seen any of those in any listing lately (as in last few years)

F16 class overhyped ? Lets first see when we'll have an Alter Cup event on supplied A-cats, shall we ?

Now call me rude, but would Vectorworks Marine have taken on building affordable Bim A-cats if it hadn't first started on Blade F16's ?

F16 is on its second season as a Florida Harken bouy race class, still waiting on the A-cat equivalent. That 35 boat A-cat regatta sure was impressive, but are you catching my drift here ?

It seems to me that the A-cat class and F16 class are pretty symbiotic. If not similar in many ways.

Hell, our 3rd Gulfport Yacht club A-cat/F16 invitational event is coming up in 4 weeks time. Previous editions were in 2004 and 2005. As always some sailors are switching class for this event because their personal situation is favouring that. We'll see one F16 sailor do this event on an A-cat this time and 2 A-cat sailors do it on a F16. It looks to become another fun event this year; sailors were very positive about the earlier versions.

I do see the humour in a little smack talking between the A-cat and F16 classes, but the humour seems to have left the discussion lately and a feeling of resentment and fear seems to surface. I don't really understand exactly why and I don't want to stimulate it.

So let me be the one to say that I'm thrilled to have the A-cats and to see their excellent growth in the USA. I'm confident that they will give alot of enjoyment to their owners and provide an excellent extention of the cat sailing scene in general. I'm thankful for the existance and succes of this class.

Now, I think it is time to let this F16 thread slide into history. Time for new topics.

Wouter

Personally I'm looking to the 2007 Alter Cup boats to provide such an opportunity in 13 months time. In addition I expect a few more Taipan sailors to upgrade as well, putting some great "value for boat" secondhanders on the market. .

Wouter

Wouter



I didnt catch your drift Wouter, can you be more specific? I dont understand your veiled references.

Also, why does there need to be an "equivalent?"

The Bristol A Fleet runs races every Tuesday night and they get good turnout. And they will probably see at least 2 new boats on the line this year (mine and one other) They probably get 8-12 boats per week, with very talented guys like Ben Hall, Lars Guck, Phil Kinder, etc, etc, etc.

Got any F16 "equivilants" to those guys? The list of extremely good cat sailors (like Charlie Ogletree, Olympic Silver medalist) that call the A cat their boat is long and deep.

Bob Hodges said it earlier, he described the level of experience that sails in the A class, and it includes Olympic medalists, World Champs, national champs... You can't ignore that kind of talent in a class. And you shouldn't brush it off with veiled references.

The F16 is interesting and I'm impressed with the level of response this discussion has gotten from guys that are now F16 converts. Vectorworks predicts 20 boats this year in the US. Thats all good, but dont overstate it.

Bill

Wouter, did you have too much coffee before you wrote this? Or was your blood sugar low?

Alter Cup is a two person race. A cat is a single hander.

Also, you may be surprised with the feedback from the Alter Cup. You cant and shouldnt expect everyone to love the F16 after the Alter Cup. Remember that many of the Alter Cup sailors prefer i20's and F18's. So dont be shocked if you dont get the kind of reaction you are predicting.

I'm speaking from experience here with the HT's at the Alter Cup, I asked one very welll known, i20 and F18 sailor how he liked the HT and he referred to it as a "good little go cart." I thought that was an odd response at the time and didnt understand why he didnt love the HT. But later, it seems perfectly normal for a guy who has tons of hours on a i20. Just some friendly advise here, understand not everyone is going to love it and I actually think an Alter Cup can do more harm than good for a new growing class, because the sailors have not formed a committment to the boat that buying one requires, so they are very free to comment without committment to the boat. That can be unpredictable.

Bill

Bill,

Why don't we let this thread slide into the archieve ?

We are now just repeating ourselfs.



In reference to your questions I say :

I'm not fearful of the Alter Cup 2007 at all. I don't expect the participants to suddenly all love the F16 at all (as you put it). Why would I ? F16 is not for everybody and I always said that. I'm actually expecting both more of the "midget discount" comments as well as positive ones. The biggest advantage of the Alter cup event is that it puts another 12 boats into the US market together with the related promotion. And if the boat is extremely well received by entrenched I-20 and F18 sailors then that is just extra. Our main target are the other sailors anyway. In addition the HT example is flawed as it failed on other factors then its Alter Cup event. Now please no more straw man arguments anymore.

With respect to big names in the various classes I would like to say that I don't feel the need to engage you (or any other A-cat sailor) each time in a name-calling contest; knowing that I can. Example ; Daniel v. Kerckhof is 2 times F16 event winner from Australia who loves his Taipan boat and scored 6th in 2004 F18 worlds and 10th in 2005 F18 worlds.

See here a picture of Micheal Cook sailing his Taipan as F16 at Port Kembla regatta 2005, he was sailing with Daniel when they finished 10th at the 2005 F18 worlds. So both of them Taipan sailors with F16 results





In addition I call Ogleetree a Tornado sailor and not an A-cat sailor. He races internationally as a Tornado sailor NOT as an A-cat sailor. I don't know Phil Kinder at all (international results ?). And I'll raise you a John Pierce or John Alani (former UK olympic tornado campaigners) for every Ben Hall and Lars Guck. And as far as I know Rick White owns a Taipan and not an A-cat.

Are you catching my drift now ?

Now I'm sure you will start limiting the field to only US based sailors, then I will say lets limit it to only Florida sailors, Where will this end ? So lets not get into that spiral. It is pointless.

I'm thrilled to see such great names participate in the A-cat class regulary, I really do, but don't expect the other classes like F16 to drop to their knees and chant ;"we're not worthy" because some A-cat sailors think that they are truly something else as a result. Actually I think this to be a little embarassing too. Neither of us are of the same level as these great names and so too the bulk of sailors in both our classes. So lets stop flaunting other peoples feathers here and rather look for common ground.

You know what, you may have the last word on this one. Make it memorable !

Wouter

I don't think there is anything that requires the Alter Cup to be sailed on a two-person boat.

Bill:

I'm a little slow, I just don't get the "midget discount"!? Culdja 'splain it to me please?

I sailed a H-16, single handed for years and loved it, just couldn't race that way.

Now, with the F-16, I'll be gainining up wind and down wind performance and be able to race. Plus, less weight to lug around on the beach, very important to the single hander.

So, again please, what's all this about midgets?

because it is a small boat- they make fun of it saying that you need midgets to crew on them and that they are so small they use remote-control servos to trim the sails.

Are they class legal!!

Pete,
Don't pay any attention to the midget propaganda.

At 6'1" and well over 200 pounds, Rick is not exactly a midget, and he has no problem sailing the Taipan 4.9.

What I dont get sometimes is why some folks here on the forums hate so much on the f16. Maybe to get back at Wouter? maybe because of jealousy? come on NOW. Regardless of what boat you sail we are all sailing beach cats. Get over it for crying out loud. Who cares who has the best boat out there.

Thanks Mary!

I hope ya'll realize that my midget comments are all made in jest.

I wouldn't want to offend the midgets out there in cyber catsailing world

Wouter,



Actually, Nacra was asked if they would provide A2's for Alter Cup, but the $5000 offered is no where near the cost, considering the market for used A2's (I know, because mine was purchased used). When you look at all the A-Cat manufacturers, I think that the Alter Cup had the best chance with Nacra, but maybe you could ask Vectorwerks, since you seem to be closely tied with them, if they are interested is supplying the Bim XJ. I think Jake would jump at the chance to have the XJ as an Alter Cup boat. What do you think, Jake? Would you be interested in having XJ's for your next Alter Cup?

Or a better question might be, How many of you out there would be willing to pay List price minus $500 for a nearly new A-Class that was only used at Alter Cup? Of course, these boats would not have the rig and sail customized for you, but you would save $500 and be able to pick it up at the Alter Cup site, fully assembled.

I didnt start the midget thing Pete.

Wouter, I agree, lets drop this current thread

12 new boats from the Alter cup is a great addition to the F16 class in the US, getting a boat used for a week, all tuned up and ready to go is a good deal.

If you guys go back and look at some of my comments, you'll notice that I've softened my stance on the F16 and lately even been slightly complimentary.

I do agree that Wouter has been key to getting this class started and he deserves a congratulations for that.

Bill

I was under the impression it was a two man event, am I wrong here?

I like comparing the input from both you guys, so please don't stop now!

You both are reasoned and often passionate in your opinions, which are traits I happen to admire.

I'd join in more, but don't have the knowledge base.

Bill,
As far as I know, there is definitely nothing that says it has to be on a two-person boat. In fact, I have been told that one of these years it could even be done on the Hobie Wave, which I think would be a perfect boat for the Alter Cup.

Mary,
Thanks for clarifing that, I stand corrected.
Bill

Tell us more about the radio-controlled servo's!!!
I like the idea, A bit like sailing on a Volvo 70 right now? Manpower can't keep up with the loadings and speed required, so it has to be "mechanically/hydraulically/electrically/servo operated". You could skipper your boat from a "chase power boat" with your crew strapped to the mast and you operate/sail the boat using radio control to servo's on the cat, from within the power boat, boy could you make your crew really sit up and pay attention to you then?

You'd have to have a pretty fat crew to make minimum weight.

How about servos to right the boat? hmmm. would be difficult to figure that out.

"fat crew"
At last, a sport for the truly large person, an end to "fitness" discrimination in sport

What about the old East German women's bobsled team? They were HUGE!!

Does anyone remember "Beaker" from the "Muppet Show"!

Allas.....We Digress

Die thread Die

No minimum weight requirement on A Class. Maybe RC is the A Class of the future!

I have seen Wouter discuss optimum weight ranges for F16, but never minimum weight. Maybe the whole "minimum weight" discussion should stay with the classes that have them.

Before wingnut gets to you. The A's do have a minimum as of a few years ago.
9. Minimum weight in full sailing trim shall be not less than 75 kilograms.

I think he was talking about crew weight, not boat weight. I believe there is no minimum crew wt. for the A cats (or the F16 class), but I don't race A cats. Any A experts have the correct answer?

Minimum weight on A-class is for the boat and full rig only: 165 pounds = 75 kilos. See the box rule at www.usaca.info
We have tall skinny skippers, some short skinny people, tall large people, short large people.... but overall, a lot of 165-175 pound people seem to do very well. Except for Lars Guck, who is a substantial guy and killer downwind, and Pease Glaser who is rather taller than I, and killer downwind too. (personal observation, Islamorada, Florida, January 2006). So what do they know about boatspeed that I don't know? Welll... a lot to start with!

We have a guy at Houston Yacht Club at 250 who is scary on a Nacar A2. Believe his name is Doug Graf? He just has a LOT of time on the boat from what I hear.

F16 class : No minimum crew weight just minimum boat weight (same as A-cat in this)

Wouter

P.S. Incredibally how difficult it is to have this thread die !