Is there a future for us?

I think this would be a interesting discussion. I am pondering on this thought right now and I would like to read what others think.

Is there a future in beach cat sailing? Apart from H16, F16, F18 and A cats; is there a true market for beach cats?
Are there any sailors that just enjoy sailing and NOT racing?

To me it seems like the formula classes attract those who love racing. What ever happened with Hobie Waves? Do regular folks purchase them? Or are they purchased only at ocean front hotel/resorts? How about the Gateways? I have never seen one other than at hotels.

Prindles, ARC, Supercats are these still in production?
Homebuilders? Is there anyone out there still building home project boats?

How about those boats that are considered "exotics" M20s, did the M18 ever get into production? Or how about the ghostly CFR20? I only saw ONE at 2005 tradewinds. How about the Eagle 20? Is even the I20 going to die out eventually? Or will the Tybee 500 keep this class alive and healthy? What will happen if the Tybee 500 migrates over into F18s?

I guess my post will mostly apply to the US. Seems like we are a dying class of sailors apart from the people who enjoy racing. F16s, F18s and A cats are on the rise, are all the others dieing or just being recycled?

I have also noticed that “open” classes are getting smaller and all others are getting bigger. This is the main reason behind my questions. How do you see it today and how do you think it will be in the future. I have only been sailing beach cats for three years now. I am fairly new and this is how I am seeing our situation.

Robi,
Just a quick plug for us non racers. I single hand a H16 and am currently rigging my Tornado single handed as well. I've been a fanatical cat sailor for 5-6 years now, read all the mags, bought all the books... Feel the need-for-speed each and every day out on the lake. Only take out H16 in 15-25 knt days, small craft warnings, etc. Nothin' better than choosing a slo-mo monohull somewhere on the lake and chasing him down, buzzing across his stern (safe distance) then choose another "prey" on the lake. I try and apply all I have learned and strive to learn as much as possible regarding sailing and going as fast as possible.
I have a few friends here who are in the same situation. Too busy to regualarly attend club or local races but still enjoy the thrill of "doing it right". Of course, I'm never one to pass up an opportunity to go head-to-head wtih the various cats around the Montreal area as well. We have a good mix of Hobies, Mysteres, Prindles, Nacras, Tornados, etc. On a 5 to 15 knt weekend day, you'll see 6 to 12 cats buzzing around Lake St Louis.
Yes I think there's a future for cat sailing for non racers. Those who enjoy water and speed and want soemthing different than boarding or kites. Lots of 40-50 year old boomers out there who enjoy the need for speed.

Cheers

Ron

I did some market surveys a couple of years back and was shocked to find what a distorted view I had about the popularity of Cats. Its very easy to get a distorted view of the beachcat situation from this forum or from sailing in a catamaran dominated club.

I have personally never seen an F16, or an A cat. My club is almost exclusively Hobie 16 with a couple of Tigers. Perhaps they don't really exist and are just the result of some internet hoaxer with photoshop like Bigfoot or Nessie.

But seriously when you compare them to jetski's or dinghy's they are an endangered species. A pretty everage new plastic dinghy will sell 500 a year no problem. I wish we could point to a single cat that could get anywhere near that.

Gareth

I'll add to that list, have never seen a N6.0, I20, or Tornado, we saw one Tiger and two FX-1's last year (in Wichita, Lake Cheney).

We're banding with the mono/centerboard fleet/s to develop a "Sail Powered Only" launching and storage facility, with docks (for them) and beach (for us) and they're damn glad to have us on board. They are just as concerned about the future as you/we are.

Our site will be similar to Lake Cheney, without the big boat docks or the clubhouse, see "lagoon" on the right.

web page

BTW, the federal matching fund program for development of state parks is an awesome tool. We need to make it easy do get in and out, in a common gathering place and not be caught up in what the "other guy" is sailing for all of us to survive.

I have yet to actually see an F16 also (I think it is just an internet hoax).
Have seen plenty of As Hobie 16s and Tigers.

grob..

Where do people PUT these dinghy's... My guess is they are going into clubs where people get the social activities with a sailing venue and mast up storage

Mark

I dont know if dying, but definitively there are fewer members each year. If you also look at the demographics there are few teens (at least where I sail). One reason may be there a lot more choices now and since the advent of the personal watercraft (water rats as I refer to them) the need for speed can be fulfilled with less or about equal amount of $$$ with a much smaller learning curve.

I am a recent convert to catamarans and immensely enjoy my Prindle 19. I sail with a group of friends (P19 & TheMightyHobie18) recreationally single handed or teaming when winds are in the teens. We are in our mid 40s to mid 50s.

Hobie Beach were we sail used to have plenty of catamarans, in the 80's. Now most people there dont know what a Hobie is.

I have sailed cats in the UK for 20 years now and from time to time get similar frustration with the lack of exposure that cat sailing gets at the expense of mono-thingies.
I have found the cure!
Take a trip to the Northsea coast of Holland. every costal town has a beach club and all of these have over 100 cats of all shapes and sizes that are just there for recreational sailing. They have lots of serious racers too but most of them live on trailers and travel around all the time.
All this with hardly a mono in sight!.
If you ever get the chance, go to the Round Texel race. If these beach club racers only do one away event a year it is this one. Add these guys to the full time racers and you get 800 cats all launching at once. Trully a big shot in the arm for any cat fan
Keep the faith

Paul

Hi Robi

You can count me as one who loves to sail but has little interest in racing.
After dealing with the competitiveness in just about every aspect of life, I want to have fun on the water. I try to do my boating (both sail and power) on the week days whenever possible because it allows me to interact with nature not more people.

I think catamaran sailing, and sailing in general for that matter, is not more popular because of several things. 1) It takes effort to learn, and a lot of people today are living in fast forward…they would rather jump on a PWC, turn the key and get instant gratification.
2) Most of the new cats + trailer+ beach wheels are 15- 20K. That is a lot of money to put into a toy unless pretty much all you do is sail, or you have a large disposable income. A few months ago I Spent 20K on a brand new powerboat instead of a new cat…why? Because it affords me many options, Cruising, Fishing (inshore and offshore, my wife’s favorite past time), it will pull a skier or water toy, etc. With the new 4 stroke technology you can hardly tell if the motor is running it’s so quite, and the 2 cycle stink is gone too.
3) Most new cats are either low tech/low performance roto-mold types or high dollar and race oriented. Why should someone spend 15 to 20K for a new boat when they can pick up a cat in good condition from the dead boat society for 20-30% of the cost of a new one? Some of these boats are fast enough to finish just minuets behind some of the latest and greatest…some of these old dogs still win on occasion against the best of the new (Bill & Eric Roberts on an old beat Supercat 20 for instance). Most of these owners I would suspect love to sail as much as anyone, they just view sailing as one aspect of their lives rather than the driving force in their recreational life. If I am not racing…how much more fun would I have by sailing a F18 for $15,000 + over my 1992 Supercat 17 with an upgraded sail plan? If I spend 5 times as much is that going to give me 5 times the fun when free sailing? Don’t think so…

As far as the F-16’s…I am here to say I have seen the Blade F16 in the flesh and it is one beautiful design (Awesome job Phil) and Vectorworks does it proud with outstanding build quality. It does exist…as well as the Taipan 4.9, I have seen a couple of those too. They are real!...and real nice!

I believe it all comes down to personality types…some are the happiest when they are in the front of a 100 boat fleet…others are the happiest when they are the only boat on the water. Which is better depends on who you ask.

From a business standpoint the Catamaran industry as a whole, is as clueless as it gets. You have a whole industry basically ignoring the general population to focus on what boils down to a select handful of racing enthusiast. Put this in perspective, out of the Hundreds of Millions of people on the planet how many thousands actually race catamarans on a regular basis?…It’s like if Ford and Chevy concentrated all their energy on NASCAR and ignored the millions of people who drive cars everyday for general transportation. And they wonder why they barely stay in business. Duh!

Regards,
Bob

I'd be happy to take you for a sail any time--PM me if you're interested.

Let me preface this by saying that I sail leadmines but I'm intigued by the simplicity and speed of catamarans.
The question that also should be asked is why are skiffs gaining so much popularity while catamarans numbers are still flat? Both types of boats should appeal to the same type of people and the costs are close. What can we do to pull people away from skiffs?

While I agree with most of your post, this is just plain wrong. HCUSA is in the business of strictly producing pleasure craft now. Other than the H16, they do not produce a single "race" boat anymore.

At the bottom of the hill where I live in West Maui is an area known as Prindle Beach. Apparently is was the place to both keep and sail cats on Maui. When we bought the house almost six years ago there were a few cats still there but most appeared to be abandoned.

The people who owned homes or lots along the beach eventually had the boats removed. I heard one story where a cat owner was going to leave his boat overnight and was confronted by a homeowner who told him he’d have the boat cut up and dragged off. The homey seemed to be unaware of the concept of public beaches.

Currently there are few beach cats on Maui. There’s one guy from the other side (jollyrogers on this board) who sails both sides of the island. A part time neighbor has a Nacra that I’ve never seen leave his driveway. The owner of Shangri-La, a 50-foot charter cat has an I20 for sale as he never has time to use it. There are probably a few more.

My wife saw someone try to launch a Getaway at the local ramp. He tried to step the mast in the water a couple of times and finally gave up. I wish I had been there to help him out and get him involved in expanding cat sailing.

The local dealer is, primarily, a powerboat joint that has a few Waves that the hotels buy for rentals. I contacted them first about buying an H20 and was told they wanted $20,000 plus $4,000 for shipping. And that was IF they decided that they would allow me to buy a boat from them. I worked with my mainland dealer who has a much more realistic concept of pricing and how to work with customers.

On top of all the dying beach cat news, the Lahaina marine and fishing store closed down last month. West Marine via the Internet is my primary source for stuff now.

Bottom line, it appears that beach cat sailing has effectively died on Maui. It’s really too bad as there’s a huge channel out there with nearly year ‘round consistent trade winds of 10 to 25 mph and 80 degree water.

Where I sail most, Aurora Reservoir near Denver, the dry storage lot is predominately catamarans. There may be three to four dozen. Most look badly neglected. The most I have seen out on a nice weekend day is about six. According to the local Hobie Fleet Commodore, I have the first Tiger in Colorado. I bought it used and plan to continue to sail recreationally. Racing in this region generally involves long drives and camping, neither of which I find appealing. I'll try to make it to a few fleet events and share the fun a bit.

On most of the reservoirs in the area, which tend to be rather small, it's a constant battle with powerboaters and jet skiers who create a formidable chop. Aurora Res does not allow powerboats, which makes sailing there a pleasure. From what I've been reading on this forum over the last couple of years, the availability of decent venues for beach cats is part of the problem. It's not just about the boat, it's about the overall experience, and convenient access to a pleasant body of water seems to be becoming more difficult.

To add to Seeker's comments;
1. sailing in general will always be a small water sport compared to motorboating (of all types). It has too high a learning curve for most people here in the US.
2. Dinghys will always outsell cats. Simpler to rig, can take more people out. Seats instead of "lounging" on a tramp. PLaces to store gear, food and drink. It all adds up to a more relaxed, easier to enjoy time on the water, even though they are slow.
3. Mast up storage is key. Lord knows, I'm getting tired of trailering to a launch, rigging, sailing for half a day, then unrigging and trailering back home. We joke about the rig to sail time ratio, but it wears on you when its out of balance. Beach cats also require more room to store. There is a local dinghy sailing club that accepted A cats, but wouldn't consider other cats. The A cats are narrow enough to fit into their alloted dinghy spaces, where the 8' wide cats are just a little too wide. This issue may be fairly prevalent.
4. In the end, fast can be more intimidating than exhilarating for many people. Cats take up more room, can be harder to rig and generally don't have convenient homes where they can be kept, ready to sail.
5. Working with dinghy groups is an obvious measure to help maintain beach cat's viability, especially around the access issues. Even putting us all together, we still don't come any where near motorboat numbers.

DavidN
H20 781

I agree with Mike. We have been coming to Maui since 1970, and the beach cat sailing is nearly dead here. Just two Waves and a Getaway available in south west Maui, at the Grand Wailea, and you have to stay there to rent them. Some of the most beautiful sailing conditions we have ever seen, going unused. There are a few cats on the beach, but in the last five weeks here, none have ventured out.

As to sailing back in the Northwest, it is growing strong. See www.sailsandpoint.org Our Hobie Waves continue to be the most popular boats in Open Sailing.

Hobie, like most successfull companys contiunues to built products the consumer want to buy. (US Car Builders could learn by following this example). They still build the Hobie 16, Hobie 17 and Hobie 20 for the people that want the fiberglass boat, some, but not all are for racers. The Wave, Bravo, Getaway and future rotomold boats are built for the rest of the growing market.

We now see the beaches lined with the newer Hobie products in the Northwest. Part of the reason for this growth is the support our local Hobie Cat Dealer, Hobie Cats Northwest gives to our Hobie Cat Fleets, and local sailing groups in addition to Sail Sand Point.

Caleb

I truly feel sorry for those sailors on all the coasts and all the stories I've read of venue after venue taken away. Take advantage and explore all posibilties of entrenching yourselves in a State Park...somewhere. Once you're there how can they take it away. You can say, "It would be nice if" or "We'd sail more often if", get involved and do something about it. Ask for help. You'd be amazed at who knows who, or who knows what about this or that. Take steps ask questions and you'll find progress. I believe the key is (as said before) mast up storage. Hell we've got mast up already (and cheap) and we're now going for it right at the waters edge, to be able to hand dolly boats to the water. Have to make it as close to turning the key on a powered craft as possible.

Agreed the Wave/Getaway are good entry boats. I really like the rental/standard/F16 G-Cat...very intriging.

If it wasn't so cold and wet I might be tempted to move back.

Here on Big Marine Lake, the cat sailing has been limited, but steady for decades. For the residents, it ALL about recreational sailing. Mostly Hobies, with the rare Taft, Prindle, Super Cat and Nacra thrown in.

The local Hobie Fleet from Bald Eagle Lake, used to have their summer regatta on Big Marine, but they lost their beach spot when the County Park bought the residences that let the Fleet use their beach. Hopefully, when the County develops the park, the regatta will be allowed back.

Just last year, another H-16 started sailing the lake. So, to sum it up, the popularity of cats here is "steady as she goes."

MauganH17 I will agree on the fact that HCUSA is producing mainly (or strictly as you say) recreational pleasure craft…But here’s the problem as I see it. The original Hobie 14 and 16 had a mystique about them…in their day they were perceived as radical…cutting edge…back in the 70’s you might say Hobie Cat Sailing was considered an Extreme Sport. It was marketed brilliantly by Hobie Alter and “Have a Hobie Day” was not just a catchy slogan, it defined a lifestyle. He was already deeply embedded in the Surf Culture long before he came out with a boat…and the Hobie Cat was a natural extension of that life style because the original boat was basically another surf toy. Quickly the emphasis moved from surf play to racing. When you free sail you are always a winner, even a big wipe out and equipment damage can carry bragging rights on the beach. Racing has a whole different vibe; it’s about winning…overcoming your opponent…

Back to the boats…I don’t want to offend anyone but lets be honest the Recreational boats coming out of HCUSA are not going to get the person that envisions himself as Extreme sports guy off a Kite Board/Sailboard or PWC and onto one of their plastic creations. The original Hobie’s had the mystique of being radical while being pretty basic. No one seems to be able to catch that magic again.

There is more competition for the same recreational dollars. For About $11,000 you can get a Seadoo PWC that goes an Honest to God 70 MPH. For the cost of a Hobie Wave you can buy a Windsurfer that an experienced rider can take down to the beach and do 40 MPH right out of the box (with an hour of Sail/Fin/Foot strap tweaking) in the right wind conditions. A Kite boarder can put all his gear in the trunk of a compact car and can buy a new board and a small quiver of kites for near that amount too. Getting jumps as high as the HC Wave's mast.

Regards,
Bob

There is a major problem, as I see it, in “looking to the past” when it comes to this sort of a comparison between the recreational sporting scene world wide, as it stands today, and that of the 1970/80’s. Sure Hobie “led the world” in that time period in market penetration by bringing into the sailing of cats, a whole generation of people who had never sailed before, but that in itself was mainly due to circumstances that were far different from those of today. There were not the “electronic “ games for the kids. Hell there wasn’t even “home computers”. More “kids’ were involved with “outdoor activities”, as were their parents, the whole family, as a “family”, went to the “pictures” once a week instead of staying home in front of the “box”. There wasn’t the proliferation of all the many and varied “manufactured toys”, such as RV’s, trail bikes (there were limited numbers of relatively expensive ones though, that parents looked upon as some what dangerous for both them and their kids as well as carrying the unwanted label (at that time) of “bikie”), “jet ski’s”, kite sailing, sail boarding, and a plethora of diversions that are readily available today at an “affordable” cost to the average family. It was just a far different time, but it was the right time for catamarans. During the 70’s, in Australia, there were literally hundreds of different catamaran manufacturers (not just Hobie) building and selling every type of cat ranging from 10’ to 18’ (both good and often bad) that you could imagine. By the mid 80’s there were only about 20 of those “commercial” businesses left, (today there are even less). One of the biggest influences in the early 80’s on the downturn of available catamarans was the prolific acceptance of “windsurfer”. This innovation decimated the sales of catamarans (and still has a big effect today on potential cat sales). To my way of thinking, it is completely irrelevant to look at “cat” sailing of that period and even try to make any objective comparison to what is happening today. Now, it is “one of many” instead of the “stand out” that it was. The “feeling” of and for the sport hasn’t changed; it’s the choices that people have for their “recreation” activities that have become far greater.
I personally feel that the future in cat sailing is to “expect” that the potential market will probably become smaller (comparatively) to the overall “leisure” market, and as such it shouldn’t be trying to compete with all the other available “gimmicks, gadgets, popular for the moment” items that are thrown at us through endless advertising “propaganda”, but it should be, instead, taking this opportunity to innovate in design, construction, and performance, and reduce the numbers of variant sizes of cats, and instead have cats that can sail/race against each other on equal terms (across the line) at the pinnacle of design and performance excellence (the “formula” springs to mind). Catamaran sailing, as an activity and a sport doesn’t have to “prove” itself (anymore), it is now fully legitimate, and as such it should be striving for excellence and not for some “new gimmick” to put up against any RV, computer game, etc, as an alternative leisure activity, it should be producing cats for the cat sailor, and when the general public see how thoroughly complete the activity is, well perhaps even a few of them may even decide to become involved as well.
Just my personal thoughts on the subject.

Here in the Tampa Bay area there are a lot of recreational sailors still out there. On any nice weekend you can see 15-30 cats (or cat trailers) out at the Dunedin Causeway. Many of the causual pleasure sailors do not seem too interested in the online forums for some reason, maybe because of the racing/performance slant of most of the topics.
In the 70's and early 80's when cat sailing was at it's biggest heights, there were a lot less options for family recreation and entertainment. There were no jetskis, four wheelers, kiteboards, video games, cable TV, kayaks, etc... Buying a H14 or H16 for a couple of grand was a semi-affordable way into an active lifestyle and fun entertainment. Much for the same reason people buy way-overpriced Harleys. It bought them a way into a lifestyle and a party. To an outsider, you can't get them to understand the feeling of speed and excitement that is experienced without getting them out on a boat. For you to say you were screaming along on a broad reach doing 15 mph just doesn't click with them when their kid's pocket bike does 40mph. The other answer I always get when tryiing to get people interested in sailing is that it is too much work. They think that sailing alone is too much work, not even including all of the setup and breakdown time and effort involved. I think the only way to get more people involved in the sport is to actually get them out to the beach and on the boat. Once a lot of people actually experience catamaran sailing they will be hooked, just as we were. We also need to try and get some younger people out and get them excited about sailing.

I think a lot is up to how good or bad your local dealers are. Hobie1616's experience is way too common unfortunatly. Around here, we have gone from a hopeless dealer (sold only a couple of boats a year) to a guy who is selling boats almost weekly. The main difference that I can see is the good dealers are active sailors in their class and move heaven and earth to make sure everybody enjoys their boat. Those who have sailing as a sideline to their main business do more damage to this sport than good.

Tiger Mike

I agree that we should not look back to the '70s and '80s and accept the reality that WE are the future. A relatively small group of people that enjoy what we do!

My personal approach will be to participate in the Harken Bouy series with my new Blade. I think that as people come to understand what the boat can do, they will be motivated to upgrade their older boats. That in itself will promote growth, much like the A cat and Wave fleets are doing. If that happens, Florida will have 3 active racing classes plus the distance racers. That, I think, is a good solid sailing population that will perpetuate itself.

When has the beach cat community had such an assortment of high quality boats to choose from? Tornado, Wave, A cat, F18, F16, Hobie 16. There is something for everyone and I just don't think all those builders can be wrong.

I think these are exciting times for beach cats and the future looks very good indeed.

btw- a local club is trying to establish mastup beach access for cats, as a way of funding their Opti program. The site they are looking at is nearly perfect!

Pete:

I think the key to getting back to the old days is for EVERYONE to try to introduce 6 newbies a year to the sport, especially the youth. Ashleigh (grand daughter) will get stick time this year. I started her at 6. We must continue to get the youth involved as they have a lot of other things to interest them nowadays.

Doug Snell
Hobie 17
Soon to be Nacra A2
www.tcdyc.com

My comments in my earlier posts are based on the fact that most of the emphasis around here (in the few years I visited this site) seems to be on getting more people involved in sailing. Growing the fleets…etc.
This might be viewed as heresy, but I am just fine without the growth …the less people that are out on the water the more room for those of us that love to be there…I like to take people sailing with me, but don’t feel any compelling need to convert everyone to sailing. There can be too many people interested in any water related sport, as well as too few.

It was a great to make new windsurfing friends at our beach when there were just a few sailors…it’s always better when you can share the experience with like minded people…to a point. But when parking is non-existent, you can’t find a bare patch of sand to lay down your board or roll out your sail….when the new guys endanger other beach goers and put in jeopardy your government controlled access points…then it’s not so great any more.

Maybe at your favorite sailing site and there is a line of people in the set up area…and launch area…and no place to park your trailer…and no where to beach your cat because the beach is already full…maybe you are already use to it. Where I live we are not quite there yet…But I have had to forgo launching at my preferred place on summer weekends because Jet ski truck/trailers that were parked 5 deep in the rigging/launch area.

I am glade there is so much diversity in our culture in the way of recreation, I am glade not everyone wants to be out on the water…I always joke that God invented Sunday afternoon football games to keep the crowds down at the beach…on Super bowl Sunday it like heaven out on the water…LOL

Catamarans/mono hull sailboats/Windsurfers/powerboats/Kayaks/PWC’s there are all competing for the same space….Maybe those of us that live in areas that are getting more and more congested should be encouraging people to go to the movies, bowling, paintball, dirt bike riding, a rodeo, an art show, flea market, do some work around the house…anything away from the water…LOL

In closing I would like to say I like Darryl’s idea of increasing the quality of what’s out there instead of focusing on quantity.

Regards,
Seeker

No kidding! The dealer I did work with is excited about sailing. He knows a lot of guys I sailed with on the mainland so we can swap sailing lies, he's got his own 20 so he's able to give me real world tips, he donates time and materials to the Boy Scouts to promote sailing and he made it very very easy to buy my 20.

A writer last night did a local Bookstore signing and review of his new topic: How American children don't want to go outside and play in natural surroundings anymore. Apparently this (and obesity) are UNINTENDED CONSEQUENCES of kids sitting exclusively in front of a TV/computer/computer. games. Its a saddening, thought-provoking subject, easily confirmed by demographic study.

"This Tuesday (3/7/06) evening at 8 pm, author Richard Louv will be talking about and signing his book: "Last Child in the Woods: Saving Our Children from Nature-Deficit Disorder" at Goerings Bookstore. His trip is coordinated by Alachua Conservation Trust and includes addresses Thursday evening and Friday morning at the Public Interest Environmental Conference under the theme "In Fairness to Future Generations."

Louv's book has received widespread attention for its thought-provoking observation that the majority of children in America are being raised, for the first time in our history, with little meaningful interaction with the natural world. There are many culprits that contribute to this: the 30 hours per week of "screen time," parental fear of stranger danger and raging traffic, increasingly scheduled activities requiring more car time, etc. The sum total of these effects are obese children who can't pay attention, have poorly tuned senses, and are incurious of novel situations.

Environmentalists are concerned because the conventinal wisdom is that comfort with the outdoors springs from unstructured, explorative play in the woods during childhood. Entrepeneurs worry because the wellspring of our creativity may emanate from youthful striving to comprehend the complexities of the natural world. Despite the mountain of evidence that Louv has compiled that our cities and our society are moving in a dangerous direction, he is essentially an optimist. He provides many suggestions for how individuals, families, and institutions can, in rediscovering the natural world, enjoy a spiritually and physically healthier life.

**The presentation is rather like that of Dr. Ivor Von Heerden, Lousiana State U., who made a formal presentation of the fully calculated future of New Orleans in a Cat 3, 4 and 5 hurricane to the mayor, governor and White House in 2003. He even gave them all CDs! Real, Serious Stuff too!**

SOOOO, are you saying that TV should be banned - sounds like an excellent idea to me. I can think of amazing benefits, fast food outlets turnover would drop dramatically and would only be able sell by word of mouth, they would then have to pass the "taste test" in stead of the TV propaganda test. Politicians would have to actually talk to the people instead of talking “at” them into a camera, the lounge furniture would last “forever” as it would get used so much less, the use of electricity would drop – good for the pocket as well as the environment – kids would have to naturally gravitate more “outside” and would not wear out the carpet between the TV and the refrigerator as much. While we are at it, I think it would be of untold benefit for our youth if it were illegal for kids under the age of 18 to be allowed to have mobile phones, any sort of computer game, and of course definitely no credit cards! None of these things “help” them and are not only damaging to their “pockets” (or more likely their parents pockets) but are downright contributing to their state of obesity, lack of interest in the natural world and destroys their sense of adventure and imagination. You see them every day of the week flopped down in some mall, these obese blobs called our “children” with glassy “dead” eyes flicking away interminably with their thumbs at the latest version of which mega super killing machine monster hero can decapitate and disembowel the greatest number of electronically generated bodies, or two girls frantically SMS’ing each other when they are only standing 10 feet apart because it is easier to SMS than it is to walk the 10 feet to actually “talk” to each other. Sometimes when “progress” is let run wild as it has done in our society, there are a lot of negatives that can only be seen with hindsight

Darryl, You and I agree on a lot of things and while I certainly agree that our kids don't get outside nearly enough, we can only blame parents for getting lazy...putting them in front of a TV sure takes the load off but...

I don't have kids so I'm not going to make anymore accusation comments for which I probably can't really associate with. However, we probably also need to consider that our society is becoming increasingly technical. My generation was the first to see 'computers' before high school (I'm 34) but they are such an important part of our lives today. Technology has changed a lot and kids probably NEED to be gamers in order to be able to work with the technology they will be faced with in the future. So what to do?

Has anyone seen the flick "Super Size Me"? It's a documentary about a guy that goes 30 days eating nothing but food from McDonalds. He went for an top 20% healthy guy at 180lbs to somewhere around 210 and the doctors that were monitoring him (after begging him to stop near the end) explained that his liver function looked like that of a binging alcoholic. Although the taint of the film was toward bad publicity for fast food, it should be pretty clear that if people would buy slightly more expensive, healthy, and not-quite-so-yummy food that it would be sold at fast food restaurants. Instead, in order to make the (large) dime, they sell what people want – can you prosecute them for that?

It was mostly "tongue in cheek" Jake, as we know full well that none of it is ever going to happen, BUTTT, with the advantage of hindsight, perhaps a lot of today’s “technology” could have been introduced with a little more "responsibility" and not just because advertising made people "want/need it". I often sit down and try to separate the types of things that we commonly buy/use and attempt to distinguish between the ones that I would have bought/used if I hadn't been "influenced" unduly by the "hype" advertising that I was relentlessly subjected too about it. Then at times I look at items that I bought a while back that I just "had to have" at that time and think, “what in the world was I ever thinking of”? Am I a victim of "propaganda" style advertising every time I watch TV, read a paper/magazine, or listen to the radio? Hell yes (I just wish it wasn't so)

A few years ago I moved into my own place for the first time since college (I was 24 then). Since I had always had roommates I never had a reason to own my own TV. Since I now had to furnish a much larger apartment I decided to forgo a TV. What a difference that made. I was more well rested since I did not stay up until midnight zoning out in front of the tube. I ate much better since I took the time to cook a good meal and I didn't snack after dinner nearly as much. My apartment was spotless. I had time to take on a second job just for fun (helping build, then crewing on a replica of an 1812 privateer). I also started to read again. And I spent more time than ever (for me) sailing and kayaking (depending on the wind). The only thing I missed was the news, especially around election time.

The point of all of this is it finally sunk in how much time I was wasting doing nothing. I was also able to drag my friends along with me and get them out of the house more. Now I have a TV again, but I am very concious of how much I watch. TV, computers, and technology are not the problem. It's the people who use them and allow them to become a problem that are.

Excellent concept. Weekend sailing with the family is a great choice for prevention of nature-deficit disorder. My kids like to combine it with horseback riding after school. It is totally afordable around here, but I guess prices are a lot higher in the US.

However, we must think twice before bashing video games, TV, etc.

Racing (differently from weekend sailing) may be an extremely stressfull and aggressive activity. The best racers I met are very aggressive, both in and out of the water.

I heard of a military study to determine the best sport for future officers to be exposed to. It seems that long distance ocean racing (sailing) was the sport that better simultated WAR conditions: prolongued tension under adverse conditions while depending on preparation, equipment, weather, team work, strategy, tactics, techniques, comunications and supplies to win against adversaries in similar conditions.

This is correct for young educated adults. Kids need parents guidance and parents have to find activities that atracts kids' atention enough to keep them away from the TV.

I like to tell kids that a sailboat is the biggest, fastest, coolest vehicle that parents may allow them to drive before they are old enough for a car. It is very convincing (for those who do not ride horses).

We are the biggest examples for our children, and damned TV's and computers can be addictive. I remember sitting in front of the TV, on a Saturday morning, and having my Dad come ask if I wanted to go to the hardware store with him. A quick "No, thanks" (hey, these shows were only on once a week) was soon followed by the thought of all the different neat things to look at and his interesting conversations with the propieter would inevitably have me barreling out of the house as he was backing down the driveway. I would also be "torn" from the tube due to curiousity of what he was doing in the garage, driveway, basement or yard.
We can't force any one to do anything, but we can lead by example.
I've been asked many times why I take on such large, long term projects, my response (stole it/LEARNED IT from my Father) "Beats watchin' TV".

I must admit to only skimming these posts. Last year we bought the house of our dreams, and in the long run we could not afford it, and yes we were speculating. We sold it after a year. Yeah, the Tax Man made out big on us last year. How does this tie in? Well the houses were so nice that our neighbors seldom, if ever came outside. They would come out to put the garbage can out and then later take it back. Some would mow their lawn, but then right back inside. On the few occasions I forced them to talk, there wasn’t much they could offer, except were they worked. Apparently they were going to pay for their house. Blasphemy! Oh yeah, they could talk about what sport they were going to watch on TV. I know a few parents that what they do, and they think this is consider doing, is watch someone else be competitive. When I’m around them and they are discussing this game and that game, I’m thinking their kids (***) are going to be the same way, arm chair quarterbacks with no real competitive experience and second guessers. They will think they can control every aspect of an activity (See Luck Post), expect that of others and they will not be able to make any decision under pressure. This neighborhood suffered, as a good buddy of mine described it to me and the description has stuck with me, as houseitoesous.

(***) I have targeted these kids as the kids that must be taken sailing this year.

Perhaps this is the summer of GET OFF THE COUCH!

TV and internet chat is a killer for the kids development. I must say that I recognize what Darryl describe, and if I had it my way the TV and the computers would be hooked up to pedal powered generators in our home.
Our oldest is 12 years old, and not easy to motivate for outdoor activites. When I was a kid (I am of the same age as Jake) we planned our afternoons while at school and we were always 4-6 kids together having fun. Today they come home from school, drop down in front of the computer to chat about what to do after dinner, dont agree with each other and stay home, chatting on MSN and watching TV.. When I succed in motivating our 12 year old to come with me outdoors for some fun activities, she always have a blast whatever it is. But the kids dont manage to come together and create fun activites for themselves.

I dont think our kids learn a lot from using internet chat and obscure web services that will be useful in their professional lives. IT systems dont demand a lot of knowlegde to use today (not counting CAD or other professional systems), so if they know their profession they will quickly master the software they need.
Both my wife and I are IT professionals and watch her internet activites closely, it's frightening what our kids get in contact with at early age! I think many parents who dont have the knowlegde or systems to log and survey what's really happening would be shocked and terrified if they knew whats going on.


My personal opinion is that there will "always" be a small group of catamaran sailors and racers, but we will never be the dominant group of sailing. Even if the extreme monohulls are growing more like multihulls every day, most are too stuck in tradition to appreciate multis high enough.

For me, part of what motivates me is mastering something that's difficult to do. For many the initial learning curve is too steep and they dont even want to try to understand where all the lines on the boat go. Earlier you was told to do something well and use the time needed, and what you did/buildt lasted a long time. Today you are told to do it "good enough" and fast, as it will just be thrown away shortly anyway. That is the way our community is evolving, and as a consequence sailing will for many be viewed as too time consuming to learn.
I think I'll stop now, before I become political

Both our daughters will have the opportunity to try cat sailing at least, but must decide for themself what they want to do.

The truth may hurt:
At any multihull event the average skipper and crew age and shape is way up there. It's hard to expect a younger demographic to be drawn to what is almost exclusively an aging boomer boat. Fantastic boats can only be appreciated by those compellingly drawn to sailing but the image of high tech beachcat is still generally equated to a Hobie 16 and that's just not cool. It's groovy but not cool.

Template for every single one of these "ooooh woe is we" threads:

1) Whats wrong, there are only 5 people showing up on the weekends to sail

2) Yeah I know, we barely made a class at the last regatta

3) Its always the same people at these regattas!

4) Why don't new people like our sport!?!??!?!?!?

5) We need to get the KIDS involved!!!!

6) But the kids are sailing optis and don't want to keep racing on a floating bathtub.

7) Wouter - F16s! Put them on F16s!

8) Its all those damn PWC's. We can't compete with them.

9) Or Kiteboarders

10) Or skateboarders

11) Or underwater basket weaving!

12) Wouter - F16s are the answer to all our problems!

13) TV is killing our society

14) People don't know how to be parents anymore

15) Catsailing is fun!

16) Wouter - I'm telling you, all the world needs is more F16s!

MauganH17 you makes some very good points…one thing stands out among the things you listed…Wouter and the F16…everything else mentioned has a negative tone to it…things we all “bitch & moan” about…myself included…what does it accomplish?…nothing.

Then you have Wouter…who has had enough of an impact on you to be mentioned 3 times. The difference between everything else on the list and Wouter & the F16 is he is moving in a positive direction. The man is on a mission…and if you come to this board you can be sure you will hear his F16 gospel.

It is unfortunate that every Catamaran class doesn’t have a Wouter….Wow… You would have never heard me say that 5-6 years ago…but…boy it is amazing how a few years of personal growth has changed him. I can’t decide whether Wouters done more good for the F16 class/Catamaran sailing or the F16 Class/Catamaran sailing has done more good for him. You can definitely call it a win/win.

Regards,
Seeker

I forgot

17) Wouter apologists - Yeah he may be annoying but at least he's getting things done!!

Dude, the whole point of my post was in jest.

Wake up and shake yer funny bone!

"Dude, the whole point of my post was in jest.

Wake up and shake yer funny bone!"

LOL...MauganH17...LOL my funny bones is fine...I took your post as intended...LOL...

You just got me thinking of how he "appeared" to be six years ago...and how far he has come...What a positive force he has become to the International sailing community today...I think it's remarkable growth...and should be acknowledge.

Best Regards,
Seeker

no growth or participaction problem up here in the frozen North on a mid-sized lake.

We have youth, womens skippers , racing and non racing acivties.

Not enough weekends to pack the stuff and the sailors in.

Check it out

fleet 204.com

looks like some refugees.. is elian in there somewhere?

I'll say it again....that can't be fast.

Given the wind, it's probably as fast as anything else.

Hey Jake can you photo shop a nice "jaws" size fin in that picture?...LOL

Regards,
Seeker

I didn't have much time...

Hey Ron,

Probably I'm one of the Mystere's your talking about.

We have a 5.5 Xl at PCYC. Anyway, touch base.

I have all 4 kids involved, and this year is going

to be a good for racing.

Regards

Steve

Awesome

Thanks Jake

Back to The Original Thread...While the future may not hold the huge regattas of the past, there is great evidence of a future for cats in our midst right now: Tad and Trey of Team Velocity; Boog and Charlie; Sean McQuilken(?): Todd Riccardi(?); and them yutes from Fleet 204! These guys have the torch and it's blazing! They are all very good sailors! I know there are not a lot of the next generation coming around, but for those that do, the Force is strong.

Catamaran sailing is alive and kicking up here in Pultneyville. We are sailing about 3 times a week during the summer. We have a beach where we can store our boats with the masts up, which is a key for me.

We are trying to revive the racing program this year as there are a few of us that want to start. We will be holding one of only two open class regattas in New York State (that I know of). I will get back to you guys when the details are finalized.

I hate to keep harping on it, but the Hobie Class Association is killing us racing wise. We have lost boats, which used to be into the open division racing circuit to monohulls. Most still are members, they just sail from the docks not the beach.

Matt

How is the HCA killing you?

Sounds like much of the sailing in your area is recreational sailing. Nothing wrong with that and not HCA's doing.

You want to revive racing and have an open regatta? Great, I wish you luck. But, exactly how is HCA preventing you from doing this?

The HCA bashing does get old after a while.

Good luck with your regatta

John

I would also like to hear how HCA is killing you.
The Ontario Open (Rochester) has been getting around 50 boats for a number of years now and will continue to do so.

The HCA will have a Youth Nationals this year.
They have a youth grant program.
They will run multiple Guest Expert Programs.
They will have a Womens Nationals.
They will run Women on the Water (WOW)progams this year.
They will run 8 Nationals this year.
The H16 event will have over 60 boats.
The Hotline is a fantastic newsletter(thanks Matt B.)
There are over 1000 HCA members.

There are a lot of hard working peole that put in many hours to make the above items happen.

So again I would like an explination of how this hurts sailing.

I think the hobie class eliminated the open class in div 16 with the hope that non hobie racers would be forced to buy hobies. What we have seen is that instead of buying hobies our catamaran racers are going to monohulls.

Remember the hobie 17 sport is open class.

Matt

Guys:

If it weren't for the open class I wouldn't be able to race my Hobie 17 much in Div 6. Most of the time there are not enough of us to make class. That is the main reason I bought the Pentex squaretop and reacher and still keep the stock Hobie sail to race class.

Doug Snell
Hobie 17
Soon to be Nacra A2
www.tcdyc.com

Hey Pat -

Don't take the assertion personally - that is the knee-jerk reaction that is unwarranted. What Matt is saying, and what some others are saying as well, is that the HCA stance is not working for everyone. You're aware that there are still a bunch of sailors outside 204, right? Take it easy.

This is my final post about the HCA. I am frustrated with the current state. It is out there. I just want what is best for the catamaran community.

Sorry if I hurt people’s feelings.

Matt

John, I am well aware that things are differant all over and would remind everyone that the HCA was told by the IHCA that all regattas had to be Hobie only. This was not initiated by the HCA. I didn't agree with how things were handled and presented to the sailors. There is a lot of history that many new sailors are not aware of and form opinions of the HCA without knowing anything about what happened and the people involved. The Madcatter is coming up, as soon as the water gets soft again, and I would love to see a huge F18 fleet competing, but we don't have that option if we want to remain a points regatta. There has been a changing of the gaurd at the IHCA and HCA level and things may change again. In short, I would say that everyone should promote what they are doing for sailing and not put down another orginization.
I would also like to invite the Sharks to come play.
Attached: Me and the wife sailing with the sharks

In regards to Div. 16, in Ontario we have 6 new Nacra F18s, so some people weren't happy with the edict.

There’s been a lot of discussion, both pro and con, about the IHCA mandating that Hobie regattas being restricted to Hobie built and sold boats. This is understandable as the Hobie Company puts some level of effort (read time and money) into supporting Hobie events. This is called marketing. Hobie expects to see a return on investment (regatta support) in the form of selling more boats. They have every right to demand that other manufacturer’s boats not be allowed in Hobie Company assisted events. Otherwise, the message that Hobie is trying to project is diluted.

There have been a number of posts that boil down to calling the Hobie Company a bunch of rat bastards for enforcing something that was never allowed in the first place. My question is, why are those of you that suddenly find yourselves without a regatta sitting around whining about it? Can’t you put on an open event that’ll attract all types of manufacturer’s boats? Won’t the people that put on Hobie regattas help with open events?

My experience has been racers are racers. They really don’t care if it’s a one design or open event, they want to compete. I wish we had the wealth of boats and events you guys do on the Mainland. Here on Maui, I’m trying to convince a couple of Corsair owners to show up for YC regattas so they’ll give the multihulls a start. All the YCs want is three boats and all I’ve been able to do is two. Bummer.

So, quit whining, organize your own regattas and GO RACE!!!

Gee it's quite strange reading about "one design" regattas in the states.
In Australia if any regatta is restricted to only one design racing it's called a state heat or a national title. Apart from those, every other regatta that I know of is open to any and all classes (including all monohulls as well). There is such a variety of different designs sailing, and spread out at most clubs around Australia that if "one design" was ever required by any of the clubs, they would be reducing the participation numbers at any one regatta to such a degree that it probably wouldn't even pay them to run the event, (and the clubs supply the club rooms, vehicles to tow the boats to and from the beach, showers, bar, meals, rescue and duty boats, flag officers, they set out the course and they time the competitors as well as calculate the results, hear any protests, and give out the trophies). Then again, all regattas in Australia are organised and run by the various yacht clubs and not by any class of cat/monohull, so it is in the interests of the clubs to have as many boats as possible at every event. The races are always “open”, but usually divided into “divisions” each with their own start. IE, 18’, 20’ cats (and anything in between) start and race together, any cat greater than 14’ and less than 18’, start and race together, and all 14’ and less similarly. (Although the division break up is now generally not divided by the size of cat but more by a yardstick/rating similarity division). If the numbers of any individual class (whether cat or monohull) is great enough then they may at times request their own start, but they still race out on the water with all the other classes present. This situation has been the same for at least the last 50 years and it has worked (and still works) to perfection. Don’t you guys have similar clubs there, where, as members of those clubs, you have regular “open” weekly club races as well as ‘open” regattas run by the respective clubs?

Hi,

What Daryl said is right. I will preferace (sp?) my comments by saying that I am currently on the committee of our local Hobie Association.

In Australia we are lucky to have forged a strong working relationship with the factory by means of sponsorship, prizes and logistical support to all of the local associations.

In order to build this relationship the local associations are spending significant effort in developing hobie cat regattas beyond the standard state and national titles. One such series has been the highly successful travellers series in NSW.

Without the factory's support, these sorts of things just wouldn't happen. To expect continued support by allowing other boats to compete is living in fairy land.

The factory won't stop anybody from competing in open regattas but they won't tip money into anything but their own class. (How many other manufacturers do?)

HC(Australia) make no appologies for this and I have to say that I agree.

Tiger Mike

Matt:

You don't have a choice here so just say "good riddance" and go sailing!

Personally, I won't be dictated too and have no interest in association with those who don't wish to associate with me.

I'm not interesed in the reasons or the intentions.

I don't take Matt's post as "whining." And I don't attribute anything else to it above what he simply stated - they lost some cat sailors to big boats. I actually found myself talking to a guy last weekend about getting on a Snipe - a pin-head, slow, DDW wing-on-wing POS... but that is the class racing around here. You're right, Mike - racers are racers.

Anyone who wants to hijack the thread back to an HCA debate should just go read one of the threads where stooopit absolutes were eloquently expressed by both sides. I don't think that's what was intended in the original post.

I like the way Darryl says things are down under - I wish more cat sailors joined YCs and took advantage of what the clubs have to offer. I think there is a reticence or unwillingness to do so because cats are on trailers and fleets are so mobile - plus the money... even though many clubs are only a couple hundred bucks a year, that is far more than some of the association and fleet dues of old. I joined a club, but I'm pretty lonely because others feel it is too much of an investment.

Oh, and 204? You guys are doing it right, but face it. You are a YC... the dining room is just a bit of a hike from the bar and the beach, that's all. Your fleet is now indistiguishable from a good sailing association or small yacht club. Good on ya.

John; Good on ya'!

Out of desparation, I joined a sailing club and have met lots of nice people and done a lot of things I would not have done other wise.

For me, the important thing is being on the water!

Matt(Fairport) Some constructive advice. If you want to run a successful regatta you will need some boats. The best way to do that is invite the Hobie fleets. Check the regatta schedules and pick an open weekend. You should attend a fleet 295 meeting and let them know what your doing. Send a flyer to fleet 204 and we will put it in our newsletter and bring it up at a fleet meeting. You could even make an anouncement at the Madcatter and even volunteer to help or come crew on a boat.You can put a post on our fleet website forum. There are a lot of Hobies every year at the Canandaigua open multihull regatta the Sharks put on. I would bet that if you helped out at the Rochester regatta you would get some help in return. If you have not run an event before, I can tell you it is a lot of work and having some experienced help will make for a better event.
So, I would not take the good riddance advice.
You will catch more flies with honey than Sh*#.
Attached: Some fleet members at our end of year outing.
Getting a bunch of these people to your regatta will go a long way to making it a success.

What TigerMike says is right, they are developing a "specific" series, but am I correct Mike in saying that the traveller series races are still all sailed at yacht clubs using the clubs facilities on their “normal” race days together with many other classes on the water? Isn’t that a good example of associations and manufacturers working together here in Australia with the clubs, all for the benefit of the sailers? It would seem (from what I read in these posts) to be that in the states, the different classes want to sail “by themselves” and they apparently do it away from organised clubs out on some beach or other. Isn’t that a little like “divide and conquer”? Or at the least it reduces the overall number of sailers at any one event. To my way of thinking, the more boats on the water at one time (regardless of their type or class) the more enjoyable the sailing and the more boats that the public see together, the more they are likely to become interested in “joining” the fun. To sail with 70 or more other boats on the water (cats and mono’s) every week at your local club is much more pleasurable than sailing with only 4 to 6 boats of your same class “away” from all the club camaraderie, that sounds to me like a lonely way of racing.

That’s pretty much what Hobie has always done to sell their brand of boats. If you only see examples of a limited number of boats then that’s probably what you’ll buy. Think of it as vertical marketing. If you control manufacturing, distribution (dealers) and user groups (fleets), you’ve pretty much got complete control of the buyers. On the other hand, without the ground breaking marketing Hobie did, we probably wouldn’t see the number of cats and manufacturers we do today.

I joined Hobie Fleet 20 in Northern California in 1982. At one point, we had over 150 members. It was huge. We didn’t need to be part of an YC because we were probably bigger than most YCs. And the dues were $20 a year. Great times, people, and we sailed our collective butts off. Booyaaah!!

Times change. Today I live in West Maui. With the unavailability of slips in either Maalaea or Lahaina (25 year waiting list) there are very few privately owned leaners that race. The typical turnout is four boats. I can put a regatta together that’ll be triple the size using the junior sailing program’s Sabots and Lasers.

As I’ve mentioned in other posts, I’ve gotten the YC that does most of the regattas to offer a multihull start. All they want is three boats. So far, I’ve only been able to convince one Corsair owner to come out. He’s even going to use a ringer as skipper. Who cares? I want to race. How about some of you guys who are building multiboat trailers adding water wings and coming over for a week of racing? When the trades are up it blows consistently at 15 to 25 and the water is always 80 degrees.

In the self proclaimed sailing capitol of the world. Annapolis, Maryland AND the entire Chesapeake Bay watershed. 200 miles top to bottom with over 1000 miles of coastline... We have TWO sailing club with mast up storage. West River is a dinghy's, leaners and ONLY A class catamaran club (two seasons old for the A's). PRSA is way up the Potomac River just outside DC by RR National Airport and suitable for sailing 16's or very very dedictated 20 sailors (lots of tacks to avoid the hydrilla death zones)

We have two Catamaran only clubs, WRCRA and SMSA which offer mast up storage and a port a potty! (the property is leased yearly to us)

CRAC, Fleet 54, Fleet 32 are all paper clubs which own storage trailers for the marks, grill and beer coolers.

We have shifted an increasing number of our regattas to existing yacht clubs which offer us starts while dropping some of the events we ran as a club. We now race several events with all of the monohulls on the bay (up to 170 boat events) and several events with the Annual Dinghy Regattas at clubs on the Eastern shore of the bay (Not near the major east coast cities)

To their credit Fleet 54 and Fleet 32 (AKA Hobie Fleet 54 and Hobie Fleet 32) have chosen to run open regattas on a beach in their area (as they have have for the past dozen or so years of their 35 years of existence).

When events generated 100 plus boats.. the yacht clubs could not handle the turnout space wise... so seperate events were sustainable and necessary. Now, when the events are much smaller,.... seperate events will wear you out and never generate the large critical mass of people.

I personaly hope that Pat B's suggestion that perhaps things change at the IHCA will allow a return to the policy of the recent past and allow 54 and 32 to use their proper names.

I think that it is terrific if Hobie Cat supports their racing owners. If they created a great championship event in a region that were exclusively for a Hobie Class, that would certainly work to the greater good of cat racing.

However, it's a huge difference between ONE sponsored regatta in a region for Hobie class championships and 100 percent of the regattas in a region being restricted to Hobie Only classes. (Moreover, if you were serious about the one design notion... you would not have starts for any hobie class that did not generate 5 boats on the line and force those sailors to sail in an active Hobie class boat)

Some areas of the country have been negatively impacted by the split while others changed their names and continued on as they have in the past ... just reprinted the paperwork.

I am curious... Back in the day... How many cat's were particpating at these Aussie clubs... (I imagine you had lots of space so that you did not need to create regattas on large public beaches.) The law of unintended consequences... the failure to join yacht clubs back in the day.... leaves us a bit high and dry in the 21st century.

Take Care
Mark
www.sailcrac.com

At the yacht clubs along the sandy beaches that Adelaide is built facing there are seven yacht clubs (not counting the keel boat basins). They vary in size and number of members, but all except one have catamaran members, (the one exclusion has a full membership of mono's, and in the seventies and eighties used to start 270 to 300 boats with up to 14 different starts 5 minutes apart). During the eighties, inclusive of all the clubs where cats sailed from off of the city beaches, there would have been approximately 300 to 350 cats (probably more) of different classes and sizes that raced each and every Saturday. Those numbers have diminished in recent times, but there are still 5 clubs that cat’s race at every Saturday. There are also several other clubs out of the metropolitan area that cats sail regularly at, all within an hour’s drive of the city. The facilities at each club are excellent and the launch and retrieve is straight out of the water onto the sand then onto your trailer and drive off the beach with your car and boat to go home (or park in the clubs car park and “use” all that the club has to offer). There are “lock up” facilities at some of the clubs where you can leave your cat with the mast up but the vast majority of sailers find that they prefer to tow their boats home and park them in their back yards or garages as nearly everyone lives no more than 30 minutes from their club, and the traffic by most America standards is non existent. You never “plan” to go racing, you just automatically go to your local club every Saturday afternoon to be on the water before your regular start time. Regattas are mostly held on Sundays or long weekends and then sailers from all the different clubs congregate to whichever club is having that regatta. Regattas such as the “Milang to Goolwa”, a point to point race across lake Alexandrina and down the river Murray to its mouth, and the “Goolwa to Milang”, sailed about a month apart, attract 200 to 300 starters year after year. This is in a state with a population of only about one million people.
As far as launching at beaches other than at yacht clubs, there are virtually no restrictions. All beaches in South Australia are “public”, there is no such thing as “a private beach” and as such all are accessible to the general public. This includes launching and retrieving your sail boat or cat wherever you can access the beach. Even by having that freedom of access, most sailers prefer to go to the clubs, - it is just so much easier and more pleasent.

In the late 80's we used to get near on 50 H16's, 20 Yvonne 20' (An aussie classic at that predates even the Hobies and they are still going!), plus god knows how many other boats every Saturday at my club. Then (in their infinite wisdom), the 16 fleet decided to travel around the bay, sailing at a different club every weekend.

They saw it as a great way to experience everybodies facilities for low cost (ie they were't paying their way). Unfortunatly it backfired bigtime. All that happened was the boats got spread in little pockets around the bay dwindling away to only a handfull.

A couple of years ago HCAV decided to go back to club based sailing by setting themselves up as a focal point, directing prospective sailors to those clubs that sail hobie cats - 1 or 2 in each area.

It is a win-win situation - the association only has to organise a couple of regattas per year, the clubs benifit with stronger membership and the sailors win with strong fleets to sail in each weekend. Those that want to travel also have that opportunity.

I am only speaking about Victoria. The other states seem to be following their own strategies with a variety of results.

Tiger Mike

To say that a single sponsor can have total control of how regatta is run by a local fleet seems a bit extreme to me. I certianly wouldn't let West Marine say that all competitors that use WM sailing gloves can attend and all others can piss off.

As for the "stop whining and put on your own regatta" comment well, it's not all that black and white either. Say the regional Hobie Division holds 4 regatta's a year. That's four events that only Hobie sailors can attend and probably about as many as the average racer would be willing to attend. So the open events and the Hobie only events end up competing for the same small pool of sailors hurting both groups. So, no I don't think the Hobie edict is good for multihull growth, either for Hobie or any other manufacturer for that matter.

Dave

Blaaa Blaa Blla
bla blabla
blaaaaa....aaa...

zzzzzzzzzz.......

I was down at Dunedin Causeway (FL) this weekend to help out with the St. Patty's Day Regatta. There were about 15 cats in the race and probably 25-30 total cats on the beach. There was only 1 Hobie entered in the race and only 3-4 total on the beach. It was the first time I can remember that there was fewer Hobies on the beach than any other model. I can see the reasoning of why Hobie has closed regattas and we know it has worked in some areas, but overall Hobie boats seem to be declining in use, at least down here. What ever happened to all of the Miracle 20's that were sold? You almost never see them out on the water anymore. I think maybe at least allowing other brands of boats to race might really be in the best interest of Hobie, even if they score the Hobies seperately, or do a dual scoring of all boats/hobie only. The more events people are involved in will only help keep people sailing and if they keep sailing eventually they will need a new boat, no matter what brand they sail now. For the most part, the people willing to buy a new boat are the ones that are involved in racing. The better they get, or the more involved they get, the better boat they will buy.
Just my 2 cents...

Gotta respectively disagree. The whole fleet/division/national/international organization is a marketing tool to sell boats. Even the Hotline, until the editors lost sight of what their reader base wanted, was another marketing tool. The IHCA may be an independent organization, but they will take any input from the Hobie Company very seriously.

You also have to look at what’s become of the Hobie fleets. Back in the ‘80s in the Division area I lived in, there was either a regatta or fun sail almost every summer weekend. The regattas would usually get a turnout of at least 75 boats. There were fleets galore, there were dealers galore, and Hobie was making some serious coin. Life was good.

Come the ‘90s and things started to change. Fleets shrunk or folded, dealers shrunk and either folded or changed their product line and Hobie saw income shrinking. The fleets, being flexible and figuring that a multihull is a multihull, were able to keep their memberships and regattas pumped up by allowing for open class members and starts.

I still say racers are racers. Granted, the Hobie fleet regattas are now limited to Hobies, but if there’s only four Hobie regattas in a Division, I’d either be looking for races put on by other organizations or travel to another Division’s area.

It seems like the non-Hobie boats have had it pretty good for the last few years with Hobie fleets taking on the responsibility and organization of the regattas. Now that the IHCA has said it’s enforcing the rule about non-Hobie boats competing, you can either whine about the past or do something about the future.

Scheduling? Non-issue. Talk to your counterparts in the different local organizations and work it out. Who’s gonna run it? Either somebody has to sit on the committee boat or see if a YC will help out. Nobody will show ‘cause they’re burnt out from four regattas? Come on! Racers are racers. Set up a semi-decent event and racers will show up. If they have a good time, the word of mouth will get you a better turnout for the next event.

The past is the past and the IHCA has made their ruling. It’s not going to change. Ever. That leaves the non- Hobie guys with two choices; sail or sit on the beach. I’m for sailing. How about you?

This is exactly the reason why I appreciate the fact that the Hobie classes are pretty dead over where I am and open fleets are alive and well. Now they themselfs can just shut up and sit on the beach or swallow their pride and sail open class with the rest of us.

Funny really, how other classes never seem to want to exclude Hobies while hobie always wants to exclude all other classes. One more reason why I would never own a Hobie. The other reason is that I think that a 3 boat FX-one class at a regattas is not a class just 3 sailors acting really silling.

Wouter

If West Marine were doing organising it, why not? It is a simple choice, you wear the gloves & enjoy the regatta or you go find some other regatta to sail at.



Be clear, hobie will do what is right for Hobie - end of story. To be honest, why should they organise events for guys that don't buy their product?? Be real.

Tiger Mike

To showcase their products and increase market share.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

hobie will do what is right for Hobie , why should they organise events for guys that don't buy their product??
Tiger Mike


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


To give pay back for the events that other non-hobie alligned volunteers or organisations have created (also) for Hobie sailors.

Maybe Round Texel should exclude all Hobies ? Why would that organisation accept sailors that don't by their open class format ?

Wouter

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

Jeezuz, this record setting thread is looping.
Hit Ctrl-Alt-Del and kill the sucker.

"Maybe Round Texel should exclude all Hobies ? Why would that organisation accept sailors that don't by their open class format?"

If that organization built boats it might be a proper choice for them to limit their event to the boats they built. I didn't know the organizers of Texel built boats? You're comparing apples to oranges.

DavidN
H20 781

From the January/February Sailing World

Top 10 classes in 2005

1) US Optimist Dingy Class (2950)
2) Lightning Class (2529)
3) Laser Class (2400)
4) Club 420 (1850)
5) Thistle (1754)
6) Flying Scott (1650)
7) J/24 (1500)
8) Sunfish (1500)
9) Catalina (1120)
10) Hobie Class Assn. (1010)

At 1010 members we have seen growth from last year and the previous year.

The next multihull class association comes in at #43 with 100 members

He's comparing factions that do not embrace the same "goal" being exclusionary - be it selling more boats or rating boats effectively. Texel could simply refuse to give Hobie a rating because they want to promote one design within Hobie built boats instead of supporting a system where many breeds of boats could race together (open class). Never happen, but he was trying to draw the analogy.

Question - all of the others (except for Catalina) are one design class membership counts, whereby Catalina and Hobie are class associations - meaning for Hobie that would role up at least H-16, H-20, and Tiger, meaning at least three classes counting as one? What was the next multihull class, and would it beat one of the individual classes of Hobies? Just curious...

You guys that want to kick Hobies out of events may want to look at some numbers. Spring Fever which is located in the "Hot Bed" of open class sailing had 114 Hobies(about70%) out of 159 boats in 2001 if I counted correctly. Last year about half(30) of the boats were Hobie. The success of the Hobie company and the HCA-NA is a good thing for all of cat sailing in the USA and probably everywhere else. Is it better to lose half the boats at a regatta?
Be careful not to cut off your nose to spite your face.

Top 20 one design classes in North America (by S.A.)

http://www.sailinganarchy.com/general/2006/onedesigndurvey_06.htm

Hobie 16 at #7 and the only multihull on the list

None of it's truly "apples to apples" when the Lighting Class requires all three crew members on the boat to be members of the class (not required in Hobie Classes); and the Laser classes also include all versions of the Laser (Radial). There are other inconsistencies between the membership policies and what drives their numbers.

Of the Hobie Classes, about 70% is Hobie 16. Hobie 17/18/20 make up about 25% and Tigers and everything else make up the other 5%.

The other catamaran class association that was listed as #43 with 100 members was the NACRA class assn.

Overhere (Netherlands) we can kicked out all and any OD hobies and not notice much difference. Of the Hobies that are active 80 % is Tiger F18 = not to be mistaken by Tiger OD.

Hobie 16 attendence is a joke. In 100 to 200 boats we typically see less then 10 Hobie 16's. Only Texel sees large turn-out in Hobie 16's, although large here still means being 4rd of 5th biggest class. 95 % of them are tour sailors and not racers.

One could say that Hobie OD decision backfired overhere. It was already on the decline but this decision pretty much assured its fate.

Mind you the Hobie sailors that are now without a real home are welcomed in to the open class fleets and we appreciate having them here. The more the marrier. Just don't mention IHCA decision to go at it alone. Sense of humour only foes so far, you know.

Wouter

Check out the 2005 rankings and it's easy to figure out the breakdown.
http://www.hcana.hobieclass.com/default.asp?Page=3124&MenuID=Rankings%2F10818%2F0

Wouter: The Hobie desicion was made to address the exact situations you mentioned. More non-Hobie than Hobie.
To say it backfired after one year of results is very premature at best. The people involved in the desicion fully expected to lose some regattas, fleets and maybe whole divisions in an effort to strengthen the Hobie class for the future. The fact is the class membership was up last year and memberships from renewals and first timers are coming in at a steady pace. I would say it's going better than expected.
Lets see where things are five years from now and then determine how well it worked or didn't.

How long would Ferrari remain viable if they only raced other Ferraris? How credible would a Ferrari only F-1 race be?

The decision has been made, time will tell how shrewd it was as a business move. Yet, on another thread there are legions of sage advice on how to repair these boats. Hobie is asking the consumer to continue supporting a product with known obsolescence. Personally, I don't think that will fly!

The 2005 F1 race at Indy answered that question. F1 in the US may never recover.

You have to wonder how the 16 remains so popular. It’s definitely right up there with the Sunfish and Laser.

Hobie has figured out they’ve got a limited customer base. To make sales in that market they come up with either an upgraded boat (18 to 18 Magnum to 18 SX, 17 to 17 Sport, 21 to 21 Recreation Vehicle) or offer new ones that will entice current owners to move up and newbies to buy for the first time. On the high end, we’ve seen the 20 replace the 18. Now it looks like the shift is to the Tiger.

Then there’s the rotomolds. The Wave probably really surprised Hobie with its popularity.

What Hobie, and all the other multihull manufacturers need, is another cover on a nationally known magazine, another cool catch line (Have A Hobie Day!) and the price of oil to drop. At least we’re only faced with the cost of gas to and from events. The stinkpots also look at a $500 weekend to fuel their boats.

Well Robi, there is your answer. Not too many people interested in on racing sailing. I am, used to be and always will be a Jolly Roger. There is nothing better than dropping the mast at sundown and firing up a grill and burning some mojo pollo and corn. Let's try to get out and do some non racing at Hobie Beach this summer.

My guess is that's exactly where Hobie is headed.

I agree I had the oportunity to do this alot with my hobie 16. Seems like this time around its extremely hard with the blade. Dunno, maybe I got struck with bad luck. Every time I try to go out, something happens. Either the boat breaks, or my NEW TO ME suv (1989 Jeep Cherokee) I am definatley trying to get all the kinks fixed to head out to Hobie Beach.

Seems like every time I used to go out, in the h16 there were alteast two or three folks out there sailing around. I always mentioned the CABB races to them, they were all UNITERESTED. Hmm, maybe I need another H16 just to bounce around the bay and keep the f16 for serious races only.


Im definatley up for that plan though Erick. Head out, sail, come back and fire up the grill and even have a few brews.

What do you mean? That IHCA will incorporate the Wave in the racing family?

It already did, quite a while ago.

I'd say so. For Hobie, they're cheaper to make so they can drop retail prices and attract more customers. The local Hobie dealer made it very clear to me that they don't want to sell any fiberglass sailboats.

Ferrari don't organise motor races.

A lot of car clubs (Ferrari or otherwise) don't allow membership unless you own an example of their make of car and thus their events are exclusive of every other make. Some do, some don't.


As things get old, they wear out - Period! If you think (whatever) boat has better performance in terms of longevity and that is important to you, then go buy that one. This is not particular to boats.

If you are able to build a better mousetrap with the same or better performace and that also never wears out and can be retailed for similar money - go for it! (Let me market it for you for a small % of the profits )

Tiger Mike

Personally, I see things as growing in the sport of catsailing.
This past year we had excellent turnouts for all the regattas and races.
And I sailed more this year than ever before in my 46 years of sailing.
At Put-in-Bay YC this past summer we started with 5 Waves and sailed a weekday series and a weekend series, plus we held a round-robin Men's Day Regatta and a Women's Day Regatta (Free to get folks interested in sailing)
It worked.., it appears this coming summer we will have 10 boats and growing in our fleet.
When we came back to Key Largo, we discovered we already have 9 boats. And we are sailing regular series for midweek and weekend as we did up north.
It appears that many more are now interested in joining us.

Maybe the Wave is not your style, but they are quick to rig, easy to sail and make for darned even racing (nothing you can tweek to make the boat faster.., makes you rely on good starts, good mark roundings, good tacks and good tactics).
Rick

Rick:

We are getting at least a few newbie every weekend. I recommend every one try to take out at least 6 newbies a season, especially the youth.

Doug Snell
Hobie 17
www.tcdyc.com

At our sailing club in Key Largo we have series racing Thursdays and Saturdays with our Waves. For this current year we have committed to devoting one of our racing days each month to taking out youth sailors on our boats -- one youth per boat, with adult aboard, and putting the kids on the helm (maybe three races each day). It will be a separate series for the youth.

I will let you know whether this experiment works. Of course, Rick and I will be up in Ohio for the summer, so maybe we can try this same thing at our club at Put-in-Bay.

We have to start somewhere.