Spring Fever

If you are planning on Spring Fever this year, please got the the website and pre-register. Only 35 boats have pre-registered so far, and I know that the F18 fleet alone should have 15-20 boats, so there are alot of people out there that have not registered. Nigel and Mr Ernie need for you to do this ASAP so they can plan the events. If you have never been to this event, its one you shoud plan on every year. Great food, and plenty of it by Honey baked ham, beer, lots of it, plenty of hot shots, great camping venue, big parties at Nigels, kid friendly, adult freindly. I could go on, but the point is, register today and lets support this regatta.

Indeed, this is one of the greatest regattas in the SE and would be a shame to only draw 35 boats.

This is easily one of the largest cat regattas in the US, as last year there were about 90 boats (86 I think?). This is the most fun regatta, and you learn so much and meet so many people. The race is excellent, but the social aspect is top notch as well. The parties at Nigel's place are great, food is provided for most every meal by Honey Baked Hams, and there is enough beer to float a Macgregor. Don't miss this one!

I'm pre-registered and I've convinced a few other people that were planning on attending to pre-register. I can't wait!

I will be there - Just like last year. Sail w/my skipper from Delaware on a 16. C U all there

I highly recommend this regatta to everybody who can get to it. It is one of those rare events that is more of a "happening" than a traditional regatta. It is worth going to and registering and paying the entry fee even if you don't race and just want to cruise around the lake.

Great camping, great food, great parties. I am so glad that Rick and I were able to go to Spring Fever last year. It was a memorable experience -- a GOOD memory.

An entire state campground and a great body of water to our very own! This winter has been exceptionally warm in this area - it's been above 62 degrees every day for the last several weeks and getting warmer (almost hit 80 this weekend).

I've maintained how nice it would be to live in Florida - but it looks like Florida is coming to us.

BTW - there are 50 boats registered now...that's getting better!

Nice Shirt!

Wow! There ought to be aspecial award for that. Most people trailer their boats to the regatta.

Especially since he'll have to hoof it over some pretty big hills!

I am sorry for this newbert question. But can anyone post the physical address of the venue, so I can google map.

I want to see if this is doable logistically.

Just googlemap Lake Hartwell GA

Google Map to Hartwell, GA Google Map to Hartwell, GA

I was sailing at Hartwell for the first time last weekend on the other side at Clemson's sailing facility. We had 0-3 knots of wind all day. Is this typical? I don't think I can handle three days of that.

WOW 647 miles away With my schedule, I cant even consider it.

Ditto!

Robi; Maybe next year? Caravan the Florida Blades (and anyone else )?

What's the cheapest way to move 5-10 boats? And their crews?

It is a lake and you will sometimes roll the dice. However, Hartwell is one of the best sailing lakes in the Southeast. Just 10 miles away from you on the same lake on Sunday (closer to the regatta site), it was blowing 8 gusting to 12. More often than not, we do have a decent breeze in the spring.

Derek,

that part of the lake is cursed (the Clemson part). Ever since I blew up a pumpkin with an m80 over there and put a curse on their sailing team, it has been in effect.

there will be wind by the dam, no doubt about it.

WF Oliver has a trailer that moves 6 boats, assembled. Its set up for HT's but the A cat guys used it to move A cats and I'm sure it would move F16s.



We batted around the idea of buying a 25ft enclosed box trailer and dividing the costs up 6-8 ways. So each person puts in 2k and you can easily move boats to regattas. This would work nicely for the F16's. If you dissassemble them, you could fit more boats, but its an extra hour to assemble them and put on the tramp once you get to your regatta.

Think about it if you dont have to buy your own trailer, you save between $750 and $1500 on a trailer. THis only really works if you dont have to trailer your boat to sail it during the season.

If you did work this out with a group, you could split up the expenses of the trailor and the driving.

Bill

Pete:

The fleet www.tcdyc.com is building a trailer to go to NYC in July to the Satue of Liberty race. PM Marc Reiter (EasyReiter I think). I also sent you some sideways ideas to email. I don't think the fleet is taking boat apart but ask Marc. They are taking 6 boats.

Doug Snell

Doug,
Are you going to Statue of Liberty? My crew wants to do it on a i20 - I told him no, but I could be convinced.

Personally, I think its better to disassemble boats for long trips. Recuced windage, reduced wear on tramps, etc, and the savings on the size of the trailer make tons of sense. I always worried when I saw WF's trailor with boats hanging way off the back. It always took 4 guys to load that trailor, it was a pain in the *ss. Think about a trailer that you can load boats inside, or not have them hanging off the back - and a trailor that doesnt require 4 guys to load it. That gets old quickly.

Plus if you have boats hanging off the back and you get rearended you are screwed.

Bill

Bill - maybe this helps?



or this?

Bill:

Me going is in limbo. Still having problems getting this big check from business dealings. Yea taking apart would be easier. But if you are building a trailer, talk to Marc. Nice photos of NYC.

Doug Snell
Hobie 17
Soon to be Narca A2
www.tcdyc.com

Re: Spring Fever
#69716 - 03/14/06 11:47 AM Edit Reply Quote




Quote:
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I will be there - Just like last year. Sail w/my skipper from Delaware on a 16. C U all there



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Nice Shirt!


TOMMY BAHAMA BABY

Hey

How about some of you I20 boys from up north come down and show us whatchoo got eh?

only a 10 hour drive from DC.

The wind... (lack their of) mud (2 months to get rid of) and format knock attendance down... Its a long way for a party.

Format?

Uh.. How far do you want me to drive to race three boats?

20 hours of driving to be tossed into the open class with the odd Wave? No thanks. No party is that good!

If the format were like the Catfight where you KNEW that all spin boats started and raced each other with lots of class splits below that (depending on turnout) ... Well, then you would be willing to risk the wind issue...

thanks captain happy for raining on the parade.

Perhaps if one person decided to make an event out of it from your area, then it wouldn't be "only against 3 boats". I look at the list of F18 competitors and there are PLENTY travelling up from Florida to come to this "big party".

and btw, we'll probably start with the F18's.

As for wind, Trey's avatar was taken during SF last year. The mud is a non-issue now that the lake is full again. We didn't have a spot of it on our boat last year.

I second that. All of our starts last year were with the F18s, and then they split up the scoring. So, who's your daddy?

Attached pic is from spring fever last year.

That's fine... The scoring is still about 3 boats + ...

For 20 hours of driving, With the level of uncertainity.. Maybe they start you with other spin fleet.. maybe they don't. Maybe I would get scored in the overall spin fleet.. most likely I will be scored in the left over spin boats. Maybe 10 more boats show up... maybe not. It's just not worth it to me.

Mind you... 2 hours of driving... no big deal.

Hey its a great regatta... You asked why I wasn't coming, I don't know about anyone eles's plans.

Well, it's not quite as long a haul for me (from Raleigh, NC), but Spring Fever is still the farthest away regatta I attend. Why?

It's not because of the wind - I don't think Georgia lakes have significantly different wind than North Carolina lakes.

It's not because I'm lacking local racing - my local clubs keep me racing 3 weekends a month.

It's not for a big one-design fleet - CSC averages about 12 Isotopes per race on Kerr Lake and only 4 are currently registered for Spring Fever (all local regulars).

It's not for the party either. I'm not really a party-person and would never travel that far no matter how much free beer was included.

No, I go to Spring Fever so I can sail with lots of other kinds of boats. I know how my skills stack up against the other Isotope skippers. Regattas like CatFest and Spring Fever let me test myself against a much broader group of sailors and boats. I really enjoy mixing it up with a bunch of Hobie 17s and 18s.

I also get the chance to meet folks from other fleets, whom I would otherwise never know (such as the F-18 sailors), and perhaps they'll come sail with us at the Governor's Cup. Maybe, just maybe, some of them will even give some of us rides on an F-18 while we're there (hint hint )

Eric

I didn't.

I said... "why don't you come down and show us what you got"

Way to deliver on groupthink theory...

Also, Eric, the Isotopes are a very insular group. I don't know why you guys only make Spring Fever your only "field trip" outside your club. There are numerous inland lake regattas all over the SE which would LOVE to have the participation of the Isotopes.

Bare what you dare, tommy whiteside memorial, outback cup, hatteras regatta, just to name a few, that are simply great regattas and are perfectly suited to Isotopes.

Spring Fever is by no means the only "field trip" the Isotopes make. We also go to CatFest regularly, and I've been to Tommy Whitesides and the Lake Norman Hospice regatta as well. Back when the Oriental Sailing Social existed, we sailed there, and now go to the Clark Cup in New Bern. On occasion, we've attended Indian Summer on Lake Waccamaw.

I enjoyed the hospitality on Lake Murray at Tommy Whiteside. It was fun (even though we weren't lucky in the wind department that time) and I do want to make it back again. I'd gladly attend that and/or the Outback Cup but I had scheduling conflicts last year and this year. The same goes for the 4th of July Regatta on Lake Norman.

You're right though, the Isotope sailors do tend to stick to themselves. There certainly was no love lost between Frank Meldau and Hobie Alter, lol. The younger crowd, however, do want to sail in a broader community. If you see us all huddled up together at Spring Fever (or CatFest, or somewhere else), don't take that as exclusionary - please just consider us a little bit shy. I'm starting to get to know a few of you, and hope to continue.

Regards,
Eric

Eric:

Don't bother wasting subtlety. . .

Guys Don't waste your breath on Mark, some people don't want to go and just have a good time and enjoy being with other like minded people, wind or no wind, party or no party.
He would rather sit back and complain about being a back of the pack sailor, and how he got a little GA clay on his Tornado.

Mark,

Wait...you're talking about bringing three Tornados and you're miffed that you could possibly end up in open class? Hit the ground and get more boats or join a class that shows up to regattas like this. The Spring Fever format works fine. You're asking a well established F18 and N20 fleet to race door to door with boats that are faster but be "OK" with it! - get an F18 or N20 if you want to race with F18s or N20s or build enough of a Tornado fleet that will show up to make you happy.

Hey Guys, I still come but I'm with Mark on this issue. This regatta used to be run with a few huge handicap starts. I thought that was one of the great unique things about this regatta. You could still break out the one-designs but also score them in the big handicap fleets so you could see where you stood against everybody. It's a lot of work for the scorer but well worth it from the competitors point of view in my mind. I think the regatta attendance would be growing instead of shrinking if they scored everybody in each start as a big handicap fleet so we could see where we stood against each other. You wouldn't have to hand out trophies, it would just be cool to know how you stacked up.

Jamie

"Wait...you're talking about bringing three Tornados and you're miffed that you could possibly end up in open class?"

NO.. I am not miffed... I am just not interested in attending the regatta.

"Hit the ground and get more boats or join a class that shows up to regattas like this. "

I have asked the local I20's about going and you get various combinations of the reasons I stated... Once upon a time the New England boats also drove down and now they don't.

"The Spring Fever format works fine."
OK! Then attendance is not a concern. I must of misunderstood the begining of this thread.

"You're asking a well established F18 and N20 fleet to race door to door with boats that are faster but be "OK" with it! - get an F18 or N20 if you want to race with F18s or N20s or build enough of a Tornado fleet that will show up to make you happy."

I know you read the one design.net forum... They are debating the question is the I20 dead? should I sell my boat now... or loose big bucks if I wait? .... It's never a good thing when that is a reasonable question! So, perhaps one should look for alternatives before you sell a boat that you like.

I look at countries where cat racing is far more popular and see how they are doing things. To me it looks like they run many big races with 30 to 60 boat starts with similar boats and score lots of ways. Texel, Aussi Portsmouth, one design, forumula, whatever. So, no matter what the particular turnout of specific spin boats... F16's, F18's, N20's, T's old designs with spins... you will be racing a reasonable cohort of sailors. That is a sustainable solution... Reading tea leaves to predict how many of my class will show up is not sustainable IMO. They save the one design stuff for their states and nationals.

With respect to " race door to door with boats that are faster but be "OK" with it! " I suspect that the Europeans and Aussie's would just laugh at such BS and tell you to shut up and race.

In the interests of promoting greater inter-cat commraderie, I'll bite my sarcastic tongue for the moment and say,

A simple "its to far" would have sufficed.

But it's not too far. It just doesn't guarantee enough of a fleet to race in. That's Mark's point. If they guaranteed that even if he was the only Tornado there he would still be racing against (not just starting with) 30 other boats I bet he would be there. That's what they did the first couple of years at Spring Fever. I wish they would do it again, I think it would bring more boats and would build the regatta. I understand why they don't, it's a whole lot of work handicapping that many boats.

I go because of Nigel and Mr Ernie, they're friends, and I go to see them and the rest of my sailing friends from that part of the country.

Jamie

I would bring my Tornado to spring fever if I had other boats to sail against..So I agree with Mark and Jamie on having an open format like Mich. Cat fights. Why limit races to one class racing.

Matt

Now Jake,

I'm sorry to say that I'm Marks side on this one.

We brought 7 boats to Springfever one time with me flying in from Europe and we got burned pretty bad that year when they threw us in with the H14, P16, Mystere 4.3 and Marks Tornado on; what to us; were miniscule 10 minute courses.

So class size didn't save us then, we still got the waste basket start and course. It got so bad that we simply decided to trash the party on the bigger course and forget about the scoring.

I'm sorry to say that this causes me to not likely ever considering Springfever again.

The party and meeting all the guys from catsailor.com was great though. But I need some more real racing to ever attend again.

Wouter

You took the words right out of my mouth.

Racing everybody else on an one-start/open class format WORKS !

Wouter

Geez, Im sorry I invited you soil sports.
I'll see you fun loving, comraderie minded, catamaran fans there...

If Spring Fever originally set up the starts and scoring the way Mark suggests, why did they change the format? Was it because it was too difficult for the race committee? Or was it because sailors complained about it? Just curious.

Well thats one concern off my conscious.

I'll see you there Dave. I need to get away from this damned office.

Good job promoting the regatta.

I simply challenged a few people from the Northern areas to come down.

I didn't expect a tirade. My apologies.

I'm not really sure why people seem to be taking this so personally. A group of sailors brought up valid reasons why they don't think it's worth it to travel so far to attend a regatta that has a scoring format that isn't very much fun unless you are a part of a one-design class. Seems like a valid gripe to me. The individuals who volunteer there time to run the event have a choice to change the format to make it more appealing for open class racers to come or not. The balls in your court now guys. You no longer have to wonder why you don't have a wider variety of catamarans on the starting line. Is that wrong? No. Certainly makes it fun for all the one-design racers, just don't take it personally when they don't want to invest in the time and expense to travel for a weekend regatta and only compete against a handful of sailors on drastically different boats, and less desireable courses.

Mary,

Thanks for interjecting a useful question! Most regattas do seem to focus on one-design these days. Why not have a big open-class(es) regatta?

For local classes like the Isotope, there is no incentive to travel to one-design regattas because the one-design fleet there will never match the local fleet size. I travel so I can sail with other classes.

Personally, I'd much rather sail in a large fleet of similarly rated boats ("B-fleet" in my case) than a 5-boat fleet of Isotopes sharing the lake with a bunch of other 5-boat fleets.

If that isn't an option, then I hope to at least have a multi-class start so I can pretend I'm racing against all of them. At past regattas, I've asked Jeff Price (why does Jeff always seem to run the races - major thanks for that!) to start us with the H-17 and H-18 fleets, which have pretty close portsmouth numbers.

For non-local fleets, I suppose the story is the other way around. Those sailors probably race on handicap at home and only get big one-design fleets at away regattas. I can understand that desire too.

Regards,
Eric

I guess the opposite extreme would be something like the Canandaigua Multihull Open (Lake Canandaigua, NY), where I have heard that ALL the boats are started together in one big start and all are scored on Portsmouth. I don't know whether they then break out individual one-design fleets for their own trophies or it is strictly overall Portsmouth.

Has anybody ever been to that regatta? If so, did you enjoy that format? (Maybe they have changed it, but that is the way it used to be.)

It always sounded interesting to me. They probably are able to get fewer races in, but nobody would be able to complain that there are not enough boats to race against.

And it must be a dream event for Darline Hobock in terms of getting Portsmouth comparisons.

Maybe the Spring Fever organizers,like all organizers, should look at the "Feedback" and see what can be done differant to attract more boats.(the numbers seem to be declining)
I went in 2000 and did have some issues. The red clay I can get over. The small shifty lake is normal for me. After driving all night and getting there Friday, we quickly registered and got the boat to the beach to go out. It was blowing about 20. Most of the 16's were already there and on the beach. They chose not to register and stayed on the beach. I was not happy to find out that they all would get average finishes later. On Saturday I was over early on the last race of the day and went back to be sure and get a finish. The RC did not see this and I was given an OCS. I tried to file for redress and was told there were no forms and no jury and nothing could be done. Another sailor wanted to file a protest and had the same results. I had at least 5 witnesses that would testify that I had went back. On Sunday there was no wind. A race was started and everyone floated for a very long time. Not light wind, 0 with puffs to 1. I will go places for a great party,which it was, but the race management has got to be good to make the long drive. I could live with loosing a hearing, but not with being told I could not have one. At the awards ceromony it was announced that once again "there were no protests" and then to have guys that did not race on Friday that were there finish ahead me.That was the icing on the cake for me. The comments made in prevoius posts about why they will not attend all go back to the race management and quality of the on the water racing. Try to look at the complaining as feedback,filter out what is constructive, and try to do better.
Give a kid some stick time.

Mary: Canandaigua does still have one large start(around 60 boats) and scores both portsmouth and by fleet. It is a great event that we try to attend every year. They give out trophies for the one design broke out and the overall. They did score the 14's seperate last year for fear they would be to slow. That wasn't the case.

Oh snap.....a spinny Tornado just signed up for Spring Fever
http://www.twinhulls.com/springfever2006/06attendees/

Go CMOR

Great event, great location, great parties shifty racing, but so what

WORD!

The problem is that there usually is no good "feedback" to regatta organizers and race committees because there seems to be an unwritten rule about not criticizing.

Nobody wants to discourage organizers and volunteers, so most people keep their mouths shut (except for grumbling to fellow sailors). So instead of providing constructive criticism or suggestions, some people just do not go back to that regatta, and then the organizers have no idea why the numbers are declining.

My suggestion would be to have a generic, universal survey form of some sort to hand out to everybody who attends every regatta so all the sailors can express their opinions and give suggestions anonymously to help the organizers and race committee know what the majority of the sailors liked and did not like about the regatta, including the racing format.

The problem is, do you think most people would be willing to fill out a survey like that at the end of the regatta and stuff it in a "Survey Box" so nobody knows who said what and it is totally anonymous?

I will even volunteer to make up a survey that we could put on our web site and can be downloaded by regatta organizers.
Is this a good idea or a bad idea?

My father didn't like to hurt people's feelings, so if he got bad food or bad service in a restaurant, he just paid his bill and never went back there again. We don't want that to happen to our regattas, do we?

Jake cops a tude... get the f#$% out of here!

Oh, and what he said!

Dude, I don't see the issue here. The F16's are supposed to be in the kiddie course. I'm almost certian it's one of your class rules. Now back to the F16 forum (kiddie forum) with you!

paging Todd Hart of Team Cat Fever....your attendance is requested at Spring Fever. There will be a fleet of I20's, 3 are already registered, and Key Sailing (NewKirk and the boys), haven't signed up yet, but they WILL be there. Where are you?

Mary

this is the way to go...Part of the reason why we're given the Statue Race here a new push is just because some email feedback we received after the 2005 event...We listened and modified some elements in our approach.

A generic survey is the way to go...There are probably some free tools out there so that you could conduct them on the internet...

I guess that depends on what your definition of "works" is. If your definition of "Works" means that boats that can't class up normally get a bigger start, then yeah I guess it does work. But, if you can get the numbers without of hodge podge of boats then no it doesn't work.

I very seriously doubt you speak for all the EU and OZ.

Mary,
You might want to take a look at the Skipper's Ballot for the St. Petersburg Trophy. The trophy is for excellence in race management but the form could also serve the organizing authority for regatta feedback.

Regards,
Eric

Thanks, Eric, but that form is used for US Sailing Championship regattas, which are all one-design. Maybe those questions could be a part of the survey, as relates specifically to how well the race committee did their job. But those questions do not address the issues involved in a large, multiple-class regatta with many different sizes and speeds of boats.

Give me a week. I will come up with a draft survey and post it on the forum, and you guys can all chime in and tell me how to improve on it.

The St. Petersburg Trophy is not limited to US Sailing Championship regattas. Any club that puts on a regatta is free to survey the skippers and submit the forms to US Sailing. There's nothing one-design specific about it. Carolina Sailing Club did it for the Governor's Cup (many different classes including monohull and multihull handicap) once.

That said, the trophy is for race management, so the questionaire is all about OA and RC issues (NOR, SI's, courses, signalling, marks, etc.) and not about regatta format. Still, I thought some of the content might be useful.

- Eric

Well, looking at the list of past winners, it seems that the selection committee has only awarded the St. Petersburg Trophy to clubs for running one-design National or North American Championships, so I have to give you something there.

- Eric

Eric, you are right. It does not specify that it has to be a US Sailing Championship. It appears, though, that application for the St. Petersburg Trophy is designed to be submitted by a yacht club or sailing club. I know our club in Ohio was very excited about being a potential prospect for the St. Petersburg Trophy when we hosted the U.S. Multihull Championship there several years ago, and that was the first time I had heard about this award for race management.

Anyway, regardless, it does not address all the issues that multihull sailors seem to be concerned about. I will include those questions and add a bunch of others.

I am signed up to come to the regotta w/ a Tornado. But I have e-mailed the race organizers and put a post on (spring fever) catsailor about who we would be racing with (what fleet), but have not had an answer. I have to travel 700 miles to get to GA, and really don,t what to race with just non spi boats. Any comments would be great!

Matt
P.S.
WHO would we race with?

You will be starting with the I20's and F18s (and F17's I think). That's the way it was done last year.

And if they'd handicap us all so that we knew how we did I might be bringing the 18HT instead of the 4.3. I wouldn't care that the F18s would also be scored one-design. I'd just like to be seeing how I was doing against them.

Sorry to be so late in entering this discussion. Let me attempt to clarify a couple of points.

I don't believe that we have ever discouraged suggestions either before or after the regatta and I've tried to answer the very few that I can even remember.

Jamie, and others, we are going to discuss your suggestions pertaining to sailing under a handicap system this coming weekend at the Bare What you Dare regatta. As you know, we used large open classes when we first started the regatta in 1998 and for several years when we were having 100-170 boats. This was very difficult on the race committee as I was unwilling to put my $5000 laptop out on the committee boat, sometimes in the rain, to calculate the scores and we had to do it on shore after the races. With fewer boats, this is not only much easier but can be done on a cheap laptop by the race committee out on the water between races. I'm pretty sure the race committee will seriously look at your request and I'm sure that Nigel and I will go along with whatever they decide. I'm not opposed to having awards for classes of 5 boats or more with additional awards for their finishing positions in the Portsmouth fleets. How many other regattas do you have the chance for 2 first place awards?

For those who attended the two years when the lake was way down, the red mud just couldn't be helped but the lake is near full pool again and we haven't had that problem for the last couple of years.

As far as traveling long distances, last year Rick & Mary showed up and if memory serves me correctly they only had to drive up here - they "floated" all the way home.

On the Spring Fever on-line Preregistration form, there is a space for comments. I read every one of those and either answer or pass them on to the race committee to be sure you are being heard.

I'm sorry I can't guarantee wind and weather conditions but over the years, we've had a mixture of just about everything but due to the three day venue, we have nearly always managed to get is some good racing.

Have specific comments - feel free to email me at: Mr.Ernie@TwinHulls.com

Ernie,
Why would you take a computer out on the committee boat? Isn't it easier to call the results in to somebody on shore after each race? That way everything will be computed and printed before the committee boat even hits the dock. (And the computer won't get wet. )

As strange as it may sound, up until Verizon recently installed a tower near by, there was very poor telephone reception anywhere in the areas that we race. Even the ship-to-shore radios we use are iffy getting to my house as an example. Two years ago we tried the ship-to-shore route and it didn't work well so last year they did the scoring on the committee boat and it worked much better.

Mr Ernie,

I've got a "waterproof" toughbook laptop, that I will be glad to loan to the RC. I'll even ship it up early so you can start loading the software, fleets, etc.

Mike

Anyone have any recommendations for scoring software? As I wrote what we used 6-8 years ago, and, it is written for the Mac, I'm sure there is something better available out there. I can probably convert this but am quickly running out of time.

Mr. Ernie,

I too will be at Bare What You Dare this weekend and am looking forward to the conversation. For the benefit of the discussion here on this forum, here is my perspective; I believe that having larger open fleets combined with some cross scoring may help increase participation and enjoyment by those that are happy racing in two to four boat fleets. I'll be glad to help with the scoring tasks too (I'm a bit of a computer junkie). However, I joined the large F18 fleet to race one-design and I don't have much interest in cross-handicap scoring or even sharing a start line with boats of a different class if it can be avoided. There is also some F18 class requirements for regional championships to keep in mind too - but I'm certain you guys are well aware of all that.

Mary, if you put together that Questionaire, I'll be glad to pass it out and also try to get it up on-line when I post the scores and pictures. If I can get it on-line, I think we would be more apt to get better thought out responses. If a skipper is ashamed to put his name on it, it probably isn't worth considering anyway.

May I ask why? I'm not being critical, I just would like to understand everyone's point of view.

Thanks.

MisterErnie, check out Sailwave.

http://www.sailwave.com/

Because handicap racing stinks.

and why would you want to be put on a starting line with a bunch of boats that you don't want to race against.

well, it is here to stay for good or bad. Everytime a new boat comes out it pushes things more and more into handicap racing
UNLESS you get Bill Gates rich and buy everyone the same boat.

I'm pretty focused on learning and trying to do as well as I can in racing. At the risk of sounding picky, mixing us up with other boats with different capabilities is frustrating if I'm trying to figure out how to get ahead of the F18 in front of me. For instance, a uni-rig Nacra F17 can point considerably higher than us and keep going. An I20 throws a hell of a wind shadow and can still point very well and go faster. If these boats are in our fleet, it becomes a large variable that we have to contend with. If I go for a pin-end start in an F18 fleet and hit the line well and clear on starboard, I'm golden (assuming it was the right decision). If I do the same thing with an I20 40 feet to my right on the line, he's going to walk me down soon and kill me with his wind shadow forcing me to make manuevers that I wouldn't make in an F18 only start. They're also capable of different things on the start line that have to be contended with and slower boats can also be a large variable. Some might say that it is simply something that, as a good sailor, I should be able to contend with. However, it doesn't really help me achieve my goal to do better at major one-design events.

Incidental traffic on the course is a little different and there is more time an opportunity to strategize around. However, if they're in our start, not only do I have to look for the F18 I'm targeting to go after or avoid, I now have to try not to get tangled up in a boat that can clobber me or get in our way. I would certainly rather deal with it when I have to than not race at all - but I don't have to like it.

Thanks Jake.

I've been away along time, but the nightmare returns! Screwing up the start on a H17 and getting trapped below a bunch of H16s.

Point taken!

I think the one-design vs. handicap issue stems mostly from personal preference and fleet demographics.

One-design racing is a different game than handicap racing. Handicap racing is all about strategy (getting around the course fast) whereas one-design is more tactical. There are essential tactics in one-design racing (such as covering) that are suicide in handicap racing. Some people prefer the one-design game, others like the handicap game better.

Then there are the fleet characteristics to consider. I race an Isotope, and the Isotope class is pretty much local to two clubs in one area. I get the biggest possible one-design fleet in my local club races. Therefore, it doesn't make much sense to travel hundreds of miles for one-design racing. Why drive 5 hours to race against 4 other boats when I could drive 1 hour and race against 12 (including 3 of those 4)? I go to Spring Fever to sail with a broader group of boats from multiple classes.

But (correct me if I'm wrong folks), the F18 fleet has very different demographics. Those boats are spread out across multiple clubs in different areas. They don't get regular one-design racing at home. The only way to get a sizable fleet is to travel to popular regattas such as Spring Fever. When there, F18 sailors really want to capitalize on the opportunity for one-design racing. After all, that's what the F18 class was created for.

So, I don't think you'll ever have a single solution that will make everyone happy. There's nothing that prevents you from doing a little of both, though. I've asked Race Committe in the past (and will probably ask again this year) to at least start the Isotopes with the Hobie 17s and 18s (which have relatively close portsmouth handicaps) and any other similarly inclined racers. I would have no objection whatsoever if the F18 fleet asked for their own start in order to race strictly one-design. I hope that if 3 Tornados show up that RC will find a way to let them sail with I20s and Supercats, and for the Waves to sail with the Nacra 4.2s. I don't have a good feel for what the Hobie 16 sailors will want, but why not ask them?

Sincerely,
Eric

Amen.

But that was a good analysis, Eric.

I do see an opportunity for additional handicap racing at events like Spring Fever and I support that as long as the opportunity for one design racing doesn't evaporate.

The F18 fleet is building such that we usually have opportunities to race anywhere from 5 to 12 boats locally but draw up to 30 at events like Spring Fever. I first experienced a nearly 40 boat fleet at the last F18 North Americans and it was quite an awesome deal.

And the Americans are still wondering why catamaran racing is so much bigger in Europe !

Same story all over again, as soon as a class in the US gets more then 5 boats at an event they immediatly try to push all others out off their start and course. Hoping that this will both grow their individual class and lead to more competitive racing.

Wouter

Wouter,
Isn't the Formula 18 the biggest class in Europe right now? Do open classes start with the F18?

I'm just curious, because I'm not there and I don't know how regattas are done over there. It just seems to me that people naturally gravitate to one-design racing, and I include Formula racing in that.

It never ceases to amaze me how you can take any opportunity to prove to the rest of the catsailing world, just how big a richard you can be vooter.

Weren't you the one trying to "rally the troops" for an 5 boat F16 fleet at tradewinds so they wouldn't have to sail open, and therefore, short courses? A bit hypocritical if you ask me.

Ahhh, but the real question is :

Would "our beloved Vooter" still have rallyed the troops as hard for a F16 class at tradewinds IF it had been run as a large open class regatta !

I couldn't care less about the seperate F16 start, sailing the long course was what we were after. Gladly would have shared it with all and any other boats.

Wouter

if your motives were true, it wouldn't have mattered if it was run as a large open class or not.

There WAS an open class. If you're so excited about handicap, open class racing, then you should have lobbied the F16's to promote that end. Especially with your F16 gift rating!

For example the three largest events in Holland are run as single start - open class events. Indeed this means that 50 F18's share a start-line with for example 50+ other boats/designs.

Both the spring and autum cup series (4 sundays of racing in april and another 4 in october) are run in the open format.

We have about 22 regatta's of size here in the Netherlands. Of these only 3 or 4 run a seperate start for F18's. About 2 or 3 run them also for other classes that turn in at least 10 boats.

The largest regatta's are all open class/single start/single course regatta's. In some instances the small slower boats have their own scoring fleet but both fleets are open class for all boats put in them.


All the largest events are open format :

Texel : Over 500 boats
Rondje Tiengemeente : between 175 - 200 boats (depending on year)
Rem-race : 100+ boats
Jazz and Sail: about 70-80 boats if I remember correctly
Hoek van Holland - Scheveningen :

Etc

All the events that make up the NFB ranking (our national association where all cat classes and clubs are part of) are open class as well.

It is rare to see multiple courses/multiple starts. And if you see them then it is because the group of slow handicap boats are large enough to have their own racing. This typically means that about 20 to 50 boats fall in the category of having a Texel handicap of 110 and slower. All the boats faster then 110 (this includes all the spi baots) are then grouped together with their own scoring listing. In several cases the two fleets start together and race the same courses and are just seperated in the scoring.

I've been telling you all this for years now. Each springtime I get the same questions and dutifully I supply this info.

Wouter






Wouter