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Capsize kills tourist

Posted By: Mark Schneider

Capsize kills tourist - 03/24/06 02:56 AM

SUSPENDED JAIL SENTENCES
Five employees of Sunsail faced charges at the Court of Misdemeanours, in Lefkada, near Paleros following the death of Laura Morgan, 11, of Woodborough, Nottinghamshire who died on 31 July 2003 in Paleros when the catamaran she was sailing capsized and trapped her underneath. Hotel manager William James Hutton, 31, of Dorridge, Solihull, water ports manager Rebecca Jane Morgan, 30, of Porchester, near Fareham, and assistant manager Kevin Michael Jones, 25, of Chickerell, Weymouth, were all found guilty of negligence. They were given 18-month jail sentences suspended for three years.

Laura and two friends had been sailing a Hobie catamaran as part of the activities laid on for holidaymakers. But when it capsized safety guards could not free her trapeze harness that had trapped her underneath the boat. ~ Yachting Monthly,
http://www.ybw.com/auto/newsdesk/20060221164705ymnews.html

From the Scuttlebut

I know it's a pain in the butt... but, I think we have to invest in a better alternative to our existing trap gear.

Is there any consensus on what system works well.

Posted By: Mary

Re: Capsize kills tourist - 03/24/06 03:15 AM

So far I haven't seen anything about what kind of trapeze system was involved in this particular incident.

In fact, we do not know enough about what and how this happened to draw any conclusions. The other article posted on the forum said she was entangled in ropes, so maybe it would not have mattered what kind of trapeze system was used.
Posted By: Buccaneer

Re: Capsize kills tourist - 03/24/06 03:58 AM

Quote

I know it's a pain in the butt... but, I think we have to invest in a better alternative to our existing trap gear.



Being able to escape from the harness if it gets snagged should be top of the list. I know that some of them supply a knife so you can cut yourself free but how effective would that be in the case of an eleven year old child with no previous training?

Very sad story :-( R.I.P.
Posted By: Darryl_Barrett

Re: Capsize kills tourist - 03/24/06 05:03 AM

Accidents WILL and DO happen, people do die in accidents, how do the incidents of injury and possibly death stack up between sailing small boats and driving go carts, or more to the point, riding mini and trail bikes? There have been so few deaths occur from people sailing small "off the beach" boats over the years that when a fatality does occur it becomes NEWS. Sailing "off the beach" still remains one of, if not the safest "active" recreational activities there is. Any injury (or death) occurring from a trail bike accident, whether adult or child, barely (if ever) rates a by line in the local news.
Posted By: grob

Re: Capsize kills tourist - 03/24/06 08:12 AM

I don't think sailing fatatlities are treated any differently than other fatalities. The reason this incident made the news is because the instructors were convicted for negligence, the reason they were ultimatly convicted was that they broke Greek law, that states under 16's cannot sail without adult supervision. I guess the case was about wether these instructors had provided proper supervision not about wether trapeses are safe or mast head floats are required, although that may become the ultimate outcome.

Gareth
Posted By: MarineTurtle

Re: Capsize kills tourist - 03/24/06 08:42 AM

Quote
Accidents WILL and DO happen, people do die in accidents, how do the incidents of injury and possibly death stack up between sailing small boats and driving go carts

We can justify it all we want. Personally, I don't believe that the "more people die in activity X, therefore it's alright that people die in activity Y" rationale is ethical. The fact is that an eleven year old girl needlessly drowned. If the boat had been fitted with a mast float, she would still be alive, doing whatever 14 year old girls do.
Quote

Annetts was the first safety boat employee on the scene. Giving evidence, he said: "When I arrived, the catamaran was on its side and two of the girls were floating in the water."

The twins swam to safety but Laura was unable to free herself. He told the girl to be calm but at that point the catamaran turned upside down, dragging her under. He dived to her rescue.

"I immediately found Laura struggling, panicking to try to get to the surface. I immediately tried to locate the hook and release her and bring her to the surface. I could not release her. She appeared trapped in some other wire."

"Because the visibility was poor and there was lots of struggling and waving around, I could not identify how she was trapped. At that point I had to come back to the surface for air." Mr Annetts radioed for help and dived back under.

"The struggling was continuing and Laura was climbing on me and I could still not release her."

Quote

Since the accident, the RYA has revised its conditions for training centres in an attempt to minimise the risk of “entrapment and entanglement accidents”. Forty-four such incidents were logged during 2003 and 2004, 18 of which were regarded as “very serious, with crew or helm being trapped under water for a period”.

Links: One, two, three, four.

Mast floats clearly save lives, with little downside, why aren't they used?
Posted By: scooby_simon

Re: Capsize kills tourist - 03/24/06 09:46 AM

Quote
Quote
Accidents WILL and DO happen, people do die in accidents, how do the incidents of injury and possibly death stack up between sailing small boats and driving go carts

We can justify it all we want. Personally, I don't believe that the "more people die in activity X, therefore it's alright that people die in activity Y" rationale is ethical. The fact is that an eleven year old girl needlessly drowned. If the boat had been fitted with a mast float, she would still be alive, doing whatever 14 year old girls do.
Quote

Annetts was the first safety boat employee on the scene. Giving evidence, he said: "When I arrived, the catamaran was on its side and two of the girls were floating in the water."

The twins swam to safety but Laura was unable to free herself. He told the girl to be calm but at that point the catamaran turned upside down, dragging her under. He dived to her rescue.

"I immediately found Laura struggling, panicking to try to get to the surface. I immediately tried to locate the hook and release her and bring her to the surface. I could not release her. She appeared trapped in some other wire."

"Because the visibility was poor and there was lots of struggling and waving around, I could not identify how she was trapped. At that point I had to come back to the surface for air." Mr Annetts radioed for help and dived back under.

"The struggling was continuing and Laura was climbing on me and I could still not release her."

Quote

Since the accident, the RYA has revised its conditions for training centres in an attempt to minimise the risk of “entrapment and entanglement accidents”. Forty-four such incidents were logged during 2003 and 2004, 18 of which were regarded as “very serious, with crew or helm being trapped under water for a period”.

Links: One, two, three, four.

Mast floats clearly save lives, with little downside, why aren't they used?


Not going sailing, not taking risks would save lives.....

This is also something that has been going around the UK forums for a while:

Quote
For those born before 1986

According to today's regulators and bureaucrats, those of us who were kids in the 60's, 70's and early 80's probably shouldn't have survived, because our baby cots were covered with brightly coloured lead-based paint which was promptly chewed and licked. We had no childproof lids on medicine bottles, or latches on doors or cabinets and it was fine to play with pans.

When we rode our bikes, we wore no helmets, just flip-flops and fluorescent 'spokey dokey's' on our wheels. As children, we would ride in cars with no seat belts or airbags - riding in the passenger seat
was a treat.

We drank water from the garden hose and not from a bottle and it tasted the same.

We ate chips, bread and butter pudding and drank fizzy juice with sugar in it, but we were never overweight because we were always outside playing.

We shared one drink with four friends, from one bottle or can and no-one actually died from this.

We would spend hours building go-carts out of scraps and then went top speed down the hill, only to find out we forgot the brakes. After running into stinging nettles a few times, we learned to solve the problem.

We would leave home in the morning and could play all day, as long as
we were back before it got dark. No one was able to reach us and no one minded.

We did not have Play stations or X-Boxes, no video games at all. No 99 channels on TV, no videotape movies, no surround sound, no mobile phones, no personal computers, no DVDs, no Internet chat rooms.

We had friends - we went outside and found them.

We played elastics and rounders, and sometimes that ball really hurt!

We fell out of trees, got cut, and broke bones but there were no law suits.

We had full on fist fights but no prosecution followed from other parents.

We played chap-the-door-run-away and were actually afraid of the owners catching us.

We walked to friends' homes.

We also, believe it or not, WALKED to school; we didn't rely on mummy
or daddy to drive us to school, which was just round the corner.

We made up games with sticks and tennis balls.

We rode bikes in packs of 7 and wore our coats by only the hood.

The idea of a parent bailing us out if we broke a law was unheard of...They actually sided with the law.

This generation has produced some of the best risk-takers and problem solvers and inventors, ever. The past 50 years have been an explosion
of innovation and new ideas. We had freedom, failure, success and responsibility, and we learned how to deal with it all.

And you're one of them. Congratulations!

Pass this on to others who have had the luck to grow as real kids, before lawyers and government regulated our lives, for our own good.

For those of you who aren't old enough, thought you might like to read about us.

This my friends, is surprisingly frightening......and it might put a smile on your face:

The majority of students in universities today were born in 1986........They are called youth.

They have never heard of We are the World, We are the children, and the Uptown Girl they know is by Westlife not Billy Joel. They have probably never heard of Rick Astley, Bananarama, Nena Cherry or Belinda Carlisle.

For them, there has always been only one Germany and one Vietnam.

AIDS has existed since they were born. CD's have existed since they were born.

Michael Jackson has always been white.

To them John Travolta has always been round in shape and they can't imagine how this fat guy could be a god of dance.

They believe that Charlie's Angels and Mission Impossible are films from last year.

They can never imagine life before computers.

They'll never have pretended to be the A Team, RedHand Gang or the Famous Five.

They'll never have applied to be on Jim'll Fix It or Why Don't You.

They can't believe a black and white television ever existed. And they will never understand how we could leave the house without a mobile phone.


Now let's check if we're getting old...

1. You understand what was written above and you smile.

2. You need to sleep more, usually until the afternoon, after a night out.

3. Your friends are getting married/already married.

4. You are always surprised to see small children playing comfortably with computers.

5. When you see teenagers with mobile phones, you shake your head.

6. You remember watching Dirty Den in EastEnders the first time around.

7. You meet your friends from time to time, talking about the Good old days, repeating again all the funny things you have experienced together.

8. Having read this, you are thinking of forwarding it to some of your other friends because you think they will like it too...

Yes, you're getting old!!


Sums up the over-prtotective world we live in. It s always someone else's fault. No-one takes responsibilities for their owen actions. Yes, a sad death and the instructors were prosecuted under Greek law re sailing supervision of minors.
Posted By: fin.

Re: Capsize kills tourist - 03/24/06 10:08 AM

Quote
. . . under 16's cannot sail without adult supervision.

Gareth


Thank you Gareth!! People this was an ELEVEN YEAR OLD!!

Please let me decide for myself what is an acceptable level of danger.

In no case do any of us do anything more dangerous than operate a car! 50,000 deaths per year in the U.S.

Sailing ain't broke, please don't fix it!
Posted By: fin.

Re: Capsize kills tourist - 03/24/06 10:20 AM

Quote
. . .The fact is that an eleven year old girl needlessly drowned. If the boat had been fitted with a mast float, she would still be alive, doing whatever 14 year old girls do.
Quote


And at 14 she would still be too young to do what she was doing!

. . .mast floats clearly save lives, with little downside, why aren't they used?


Because YOU aren't in charge !
Posted By: Wouter

Re: Capsize kills tourist - 03/24/06 10:27 AM



Scoob,

Quote

For those born before 1986 ...



Ain't that the truth !

I must be getting old.

Wouter
Posted By: scooby_simon

Re: Capsize kills tourist - 03/24/06 10:55 AM

LOL.

I've done most of the above, including helming a Dart 18 at 13 with a similar aged crew.

Gocart crashes, cycling to school down hills (something you are a little short on in NL) faster than the cars !

Life it far too soft for the kids these days.
Posted By: Rolf_Nilsen

Re: Capsize kills tourist - 03/24/06 11:05 AM

I am old.. but water from the hose did _not_ taste like water from the spring! I am old enough to remember that clearly.


Having mast floats on rental boats (if that was what the boat was used for) should be a no brainer tough. Not only for safety, there are plenty of other ways to kill or hurt yourself, but to relieve pressure on the rescue boat in such a setting.
Posted By: Wouter

Re: Capsize kills tourist - 03/24/06 11:19 AM


Quote

cycling to school down hills (something you are a little short on in NL) faster than the cars !



Ever stood at the beginning of a very busy 2 km long narrow old shopping street with a group of other younsters and agree that the last one to come out at the other end is a sissy ?

I still remember ducking my share of car trying the park blocking my way and seeing me crossing behind them at full speed to the sidewalk trying not to hit any pedestrians and other old ladies before making a break turn between another set of cars to get back onto the street again.

At one time I was too late and a car parked me together with him between two other cars. Nice pile-up. If I ever see my future son pulling stunts like that then something will be swinging.

(but I'll be REALLY worried if he didn't even try to get away with stuff like this !)

Wouter
Posted By: fin.

Re: Capsize kills tourist - 03/24/06 11:38 AM

I agree with Rolf on both counts; RENTAL boats, and garden hoses! We old guys have to stick together!
Posted By: Dermot

Re: Capsize kills tourist - 03/24/06 12:00 PM

Simon, I started reading that and said "yea I know what he is talking about, I remember all that".
THEN it hit me YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT MY KIDS I am OLD
Posted By: rhodysail

Re: Capsize kills tourist - 03/24/06 01:03 PM

http://www.catsailor.com/forums/sho...ew=collapsed&sb=3&o=&fpart=1
Posted By: bullswan

Re: Capsize kills tourist - 03/24/06 01:22 PM

Okay with all that..... BUT WAHT ABOUT MARK'S ORIGINAL QUESTION? "Is there a consensus on what system works well?"

If you could start right now with any trapeze system with safety as the primary concern which would you use?

I am taking the lead here and saying flat out that I am switching stuff over to the ball system. With the promise of taking more and more kids out this summer I want to try and make this as safe as possible. I'd rather they fall out of place unitentionally than risk not being able to release the hook in a panic situation.

What do you think?

Greg
Posted By: Buccaneer

Re: Capsize kills tourist - 03/24/06 01:37 PM

It’s nice you guys can find a little something humorous here.

Maybe if you had a young child of your own you’d be more curious as to how she got so entrapped, and how the fatality could have been prevented.

Posted By: rhodysail

Re: Capsize kills tourist - 03/24/06 01:55 PM

The ball and socket thing works great. I have been using it for two years now. There are zero drawbacks it's just safer.
Posted By: Rolf_Nilsen

Re: Capsize kills tourist - 03/24/06 02:01 PM

I dont have more faith in the ball/plate than the regular hook setup. The trapeze harness can trap you anyway, what is needed is a quick release harness that is as simple to escape as pulling the reserve on a parachute rig. That dont solve all problems either, as you can get trapped in sheets, beneath sails (especially spis) and I know not what..
As mentioned earlier, everything we do, and I mean everthing, has some elements of risk. We can minimize them, but never eliminate them.
Posted By: fin.

Re: Capsize kills tourist - 03/24/06 02:17 PM

Quote
It’s nice you guys can find a little something humorous here.

Maybe if you had a young child of your own you’d be more curious as to how she got so entrapped, and how the fatality could have been prevented.



If I had a young child, I would have been parenting that child and not have left the responsibility to others.
Posted By: waterbug_wpb

Re: Capsize kills tourist - 03/24/06 02:27 PM

Okay, how about a soda can sized compressed air cylinder with mouthpiece similar to what helicopter pilots and some scuba rescue folk use?

Mounted somewhere on the body (preferably out of the way but within easy access to a distressed person), this would allow the person to at least have 1 -2 minutes of extra air to calm down and figure out a way to get un-tangled (regardless of which trapeze system they are using).

Even 30 seconds of extra air can work wonders.

How about streamlining the whole boat to minimize the risk of entanglement? Internally run control lines come to mind.

A quick release system wouldn't have to undo the entire harness (in the case of a full harness), but just the spreader bar in the case of the hook system. I'm not sure what would catch on the ball system.

The lycra stretch "rashers" that go over all the person's sailing equipment would also tend to reduce the likelihood of something tangling up on the sailor.

Most of all - adult or competent sailor supervision when sailing with small children or those not used to the "dangers" of sailing.

I know that as an 11 year old, I was not allowed to take our sunfish (or H17 with my brother) out unsupervised until I was able to tip it over and right it myself several times in various conditions.

Of course, once we found out it was fun to flip those things over, we didn't get much sailing done on light air days. More of the following situation played out:

(2 sunfish in lake, small triangle race course, light winds)

- Boat 1 approaches boat 2 prior to "start sequence" (someone saying "Go")
- Boat 1 announces "You can't even sail that thing!" (or some similar smack talk)
- Boat 2 responds "STAY AWAY FROM ME, MAN"
- Boat 1 driver sails astride boat 2, jumps to boat 2, stands up and grabs mast, hikes out and dumps boat 2
- Boat 2 driver grabs Boat 1 (currently unattended) and does the same
- First boat to right usually wins race.

It took me a few more years of actual racing to realize that sailboat racing is a game of tactics, not "last boat upright gets the lead" (well, that is still the case in heavy wind, but not because the skipper swam over and dumped the competitor's boat).

But still, there was a sort of twisted enjoyment in the "australian rules/Full contact" sailing....

Good times..
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Capsize kills tourist - 03/24/06 02:30 PM

I think we all need to start carrying a knife with a serrated edge that will cut metal. To hell with ruining the sails or rigging it your going to die!!

Doug Snell
Hobie 17
www.tcdyc.com
Posted By: Tornado_ALIVE

Re: Capsize kills tourist - 03/24/06 02:40 PM

I believe the knife is the best option and always carry one.

If traped, don't be shy...... Straight through the trampaline.
Posted By: fin.

Re: Capsize kills tourist - 03/24/06 02:44 PM

Quote
I believe the knife is the best option and always carry one.

If traped, don't be shy...... Straight through the trampaline.


Straight blade would be best. But, I'm more concerned about being run down by a jet-ski or similar craft.

Any comments?
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Capsize kills tourist - 03/24/06 02:51 PM

Pete:

I believe you need a straight one side serrated the other so you can cut shrouds or what ever wire you hook on. Thinking of getting a scuba diver type to attach to leg. What is latest on Blade?

Doug Snell
Hobie 17
www.tcdyc.com
Posted By: waterbug_wpb

Re: Capsize kills tourist - 03/24/06 02:52 PM

Quote


Straight blade would be best. But, I'm more concerned about being run down by a jet-ski or similar craft.

Any comments?


Two words:
Glock
H&K

Both can fire in marine environments. You'd be doing us a favor, too.... No bag limits on jet-skis last I checked...
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Capsize kills tourist - 03/24/06 02:56 PM

Pete:

Take a cooler filled with ice balloons and a water balloon sling shot. A few of these upside the head will get rid of the problem REAL fast and target practice is FUN.

Doug
Posted By: fin.

Re: Capsize kills tourist - 03/24/06 02:58 PM

It's a crazy world, I'm seriously considering the firearms option; the water balloon doesn't have enough stopping power.
Posted By: bullswan

Re: Capsize kills tourist - 03/24/06 02:59 PM

Quote
I believe the knife is the best option and always carry one.

If traped, don't be shy...... Straight through the trampaline.


I carry a knife as well but....... The idea of being under water with someone panicky and with all the grabbing at you and pulling I'm not convinced I want a razor-sharp utensil slashing around at whatever is holding them down. I think it would be fine for me to use if I was the one trapped but I can't see releasing anyone else in panic mode.

Do you think the ball and socket and the mast float ball are about the best you can do to keep people afloat beyond safety floatation vests (of course)?

Greg
Posted By: pbisesi

Re: Capsize kills tourist - 03/24/06 03:01 PM

I will be sailing with my 11 year old daughter this season. I have bought the ball and key system, I carry a good knife on me, one in her life jacket and one in the tool bag with a hand held cable cutter. You have a whole new appriciation for safety when you sail with a kid. If it blows real hard I have her stay on the boat.
The regatta organizers should also take note. Have every chase/safety volunteer carry a knife and hand held cable cutter. The fastest boat can carry a large cable cutter. All must have good radios. When I have run an event I issue all the equipment to the chase boats if they don't have it and give instruction to get two heads above water regardless of what has to be cut including the sailor, they can be stiched up. You can not un drown someone.

Attached picture 70711-patsarahmc105.jpg
Posted By: fin.

Re: Capsize kills tourist - 03/24/06 03:07 PM

Quote
Quote
I believe the knife is the best option and always carry one.

If traped, don't be shy...... Straight through the trampaline.


I carry a knife as well but....... The idea of being under water with someone panicky and with all the grabbing at you and pulling I'm not convinced I want a razor-sharp utensil slashing around at whatever is holding them down. I think it would be fine for me to use if I was the one trapped but I can't see releasing anyone else in panic mode.

Do you think the ball and socket and the mast float ball are about the best you can do to keep people afloat beyond safety floatation vests (of course)?

Greg


A vest can be a definite liability. Once, a petite, very busty lady fell off her husbands boat while racing. Because of her figure, she had the vest fitted loosely. She hit the water with enough force that vest floated up over her head, leaving the vest attached but not providing bouyancy. She was trapped and drowning INSIDE THE VEST!!

She was rescued by the crew of the next boat rounding the mark!!

The best safety device,IMO, is attitude. Always expect something to happen and be prepared to react i.e. never get caught off guard! Relaxed awareness, like driving.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Capsize kills tourist - 03/24/06 03:16 PM

Guys:

I know we all hate vest that gives us the weird tan lines. But I always wear one unless the wind is 5 or less. I have had two experiences where they where life savers. Once I was hit in the head by by the boom on an unplanned jibe and the other the trap line broke while on the wire and got dumped. There will be that weird time when you are not always holding on to the mainsheet. I would rather be uncomfortable than have to tread water for a long time.

Doug Snell
Hobie 17
www.tcdyc.com
Posted By: Mark Schneider

Re: Capsize kills tourist - 03/24/06 04:13 PM

Hi Pat

That is outstanding advice... I never even thought about equiping the chase boats with cable cutters.

Thank you!

Mark
Posted By: chrisun

Re: Capsize kills tourist - 03/24/06 04:14 PM

Quote
It's a crazy world, I'm seriously considering the firearms option; the water balloon doesn't have enough stopping power.


I think he said ice balloon...
Posted By: Chris9

Re: Capsize kills tourist - 03/24/06 04:37 PM

Prefer Sig-Sauer to the glock, but that just personal preference.

PFDs equiped with dive knifes.
Posted By: pbisesi

Re: Capsize kills tourist - 03/24/06 04:57 PM

The other thing I would add is that the race committe should let everyone know at the skippers meeting on a windy day that redress will be generously granted to those who stop to help others.
I was the recipient of this at the 2003 nationals. I flipped real hard along with most of the fleet. I righted to boat and continued to A. There were 4 boats over in a group and I stopped until all were accounted for. I went in after that and was told I was granted redress for lending assistance ( I didn't ask). A chase boat had reported it. When there is half the fleet over we have to watch out for each other. 3 or 4 chase boats can't get to everyone.

There are 4 pre-teens already registed in A fleet for the Madcatter with many more you to come.
Making sure they have fun and stay safe is huge.
Madcatter Kids: All receive a trophy for competing.

Attached picture 70728-DSC_5109.jpg
Posted By: Jake

Re: Capsize kills tourist - 03/24/06 05:00 PM

I've been quite pleased with the Benchmade Rescue Hook. After having a dive knife release itself from it's holster twice (once when climbing to the bottom of a turtled trampoline), I decided that it was no longer an acceptable solution. I then found these and consider them much safer and as quick, or quicker, to operate than an open blade.

Posted By: chrisun

Re: Capsize kills tourist - 03/24/06 05:00 PM

Quote
Prefer Sig-Sauer to the glock, but that just personal preference.


Yeah, but 'you got Sig Sauer money?!'
Posted By: MauganN20

Re: Capsize kills tourist - 03/24/06 05:01 PM

Sometimes people at regattas look at me funny because I've never really taken off all the crap that I have to strap to it for the Tybee, but theres a rather sizeable diving knife on there that mounted right on my left chest area that simple click in place, pull down system. I've not had to use it yet, thankfully, but I've practiced cutting lines while holding my breath underwater. Its harder than you think, especially if you're panicing.
Posted By: _flatlander_

Re: Capsize kills tourist - 03/24/06 05:44 PM

Had almost this same incidence happen with my wife as crew. (apologies to those who remember my recantation, but for the benefit of those who don't recall it.)

Race situation (no mast bob), very, very strong winds, before the start we were hit by a huge puff and my wife was unable to uncleat the jib. I bailed and she scooted back up the tramp to the rail (H16). I knew the boat was going turtle (shame on me for not telling her ahead of time). Despite my telling her to jump, she was determined to stay on board, to the point of turning herself around and finally letting go as the boat was starting to turtle from the heavy wind. Sliding face first down the tramp her hook caught the center tramp lacing and within seconds she was two feet under water, attached to the tramp. She was panicing, if she had a knife or cable cutter on her person I don't believe she would have been "cool" enough to use it. Thank God we had the circa 1980, quick release hook. Does any one remember what I'm talking about? Looks identical to the small (not spreader bar) type harness buckle, but had a short line tail to actuate a spring loaded release mechanism (the whole hook and backing plate slid out of the frame). This saved her life. Diving down under the water, against the bouyancy of the life vest was difficult enough, not leaving me much time to do anything other than pull that cord and yank her out from under the boat and to the surface.

Was there some suspected defect to these? Back into cat sailing/racing after several years off I notice they're not available any longer (at least not in the Hobie catalogue). I have some older style harnesses I'd like to outfit them with. Are they still available somewhere?

We believe in quick release.
Posted By: Wouter

Re: Capsize kills tourist - 03/24/06 05:57 PM



How about just bring along a large diameter garden hoose instead of a high tech James Bond like air canister. With enough diameter you could survice indefinately. Just have a float on the other end.

This sounds like some good emergency rescue aid for catamaran instructors and dirty cheap as well. It is best if people remember to breath in through the mouth and out through the corners of the mouth/nose as well. Then even smaller diameter tubes can be used as well.

With respect of quick release harnesses, I think I know of a system that will work very well and be relatively easily to make as well. It will unhook to full hook assemble together with the bar itself. Rolf, you seem to be handy with making stuff yourself; shall we hook up and try to work this one out. I'm handy in lateral thinking and designing but homebuilding stuff isn't my forte !

Wouter
Posted By: Wouter

Re: Capsize kills tourist - 03/24/06 06:06 PM

Quote

I think we all need to start carrying a knife with a serrated edge that will cut metal. To hell with ruining the sails or rigging it your going to die!!



That is indeed true. Sometimes we want to keep our gear undamaged for too long. Something I learned from former marines/commando's (we seem to have quite a few of them in cat sailing overhere). Din't panic, Don't freeze-up; don't think about later, do immediately what you think will work. If it doesn't work then you still have some time to think up something else and do that. All gear can be replaced; it is just money, no big deal. That and to remember to always bring a proper knife with you.

In cases like this cutting the trampoline can do wonders can do wonders if somebody is trapped underneath. If the rescue-ee is hold down deeper then have one person do buddy breathing with that person while the others do the cutting and stuff.

Actually I'm quite happy I took that diving course once. Both made me feel even more relaxed under water (don't panic) and taught me some tricks on how to keep somebody alive. Often if you relax yourself untangling becomes alot easier. Thats another taught in diving school.

Wouter
Posted By: Wouter

Re: Capsize kills tourist - 03/24/06 06:09 PM



When somebody panics and gets a death lock on your thus holding you down then dive deeper, its remarkable how many people will then immediately let go.

And again don't be shy; rough them up when you have to. Break a few fingers when necessary.

Wouter
Posted By: hobie1616

Re: Capsize kills tourist - 03/24/06 06:15 PM

Quote
Quote


Straight blade would be best. But, I'm more concerned about being run down by a jet-ski or similar craft.

Any comments?


Two words:
Glock
H&K

Both can fire in marine environments. You'd be doing us a favor, too.... No bag limits on jet-skis last I checked...
Here's another option for jet ski hunters.

http://www.west.net/~lpm/hobie/archives/v1-i2/humor.shtml
Posted By: pbisesi

Re: Capsize kills tourist - 03/24/06 06:15 PM

Isn't the idea to get rid of the hook by quick release? The ball and socket eliminates the hook. The problem with anything quick release is that it works at the most inopportune times.Like double trapped going to A in the lead(could happen).

John: Having the knives and cable cutters on board are probably more for helping others in need more than yourself.
There is always another boat nearby during a race. Everyone should be prepared.

Having the hose on the chase boats is also an interesting idea.
Posted By: Rolf_Nilsen

Re: Capsize kills tourist - 03/24/06 06:36 PM

Wouter: Hit me with what you got. It's too cold for epoxy to set in my garage (latest kayak on hold) and too much snow to launch the T. Sewing machine just sits there while I am waiting for some pre-cut sail-kits..

pbisesi: It's not just the hook that can get caught, it's amazing what you can manage to get stuck to while sailing. Everything from sheets to trampoline lazing can tangle you, so you can never eliminate the danger completely. But having a quick release harness removes one of the larger risks. If the system is good enough, it should not release when you dont want it to.

I think the hose idea is too complex. First you have to get it down to the one trapped while he/she is still concious. Then he/she needs to remember how to use it correctly (in trough the mouth, out trough trough the nose) and dont hyperventilate in and out trough the hose. 99% (wild guess) of cases where you are trapped can probably be solved with a knife or rescue hook. Having a sealed mast with enough volume to keep the boat from turtling is the very best insurance against ever getting into such a situation.
Posted By: Keith

Re: Capsize kills tourist - 03/24/06 06:57 PM

Quote
Quote

I think we all need to start carrying a knife with a serrated edge that will cut metal. To hell with ruining the sails or rigging it your going to die!!



That is indeed true. Sometimes we want to keep our gear undamaged for too long. Something I learned from former marines/commando's (we seem to have quite a few of them in cat sailing overhere). Din't panic, Don't freeze-up; don't think about later, do immediately what you think will work. If it doesn't work then you still have some time to think up something else and do that. All gear can be replaced; it is just money, no big deal. That and to remember to always bring a proper knife with you.

In cases like this cutting the trampoline can do wonders can do wonders if somebody is trapped underneath. If the rescue-ee is hold down deeper then have one person do buddy breathing with that person while the others do the cutting and stuff.

Actually I'm quite happy I took that diving course once. Both made me feel even more relaxed under water (don't panic) and taught me some tricks on how to keep somebody alive. Often if you relax yourself untangling becomes alot easier. Thats another taught in diving school.

Wouter



I was just getting ready to post some of these same recommendations. I'm responding to this simply to add some emphasis because I think in a panic situation the gut instinct is for people to try to swim under and free the person, when the first priority should be establishing the ability to breath. For somebody trapped under the tramp cutting the tramp can get that person breathing even if they are still caught in the rigging. It may also provide quicker access to the person to help free them.

Buddy breathing may also be an option, although this may be tough depending on how the person is trapped. Once again, cutting the tramp may give enough access to the person to do this effectively.

Both things require that people are calm enough or have thought about the situation enough to try those things and not automatically emphasize only freeing the person.

I have a dive knife on my vest in such a manner that either hand can get it and use it without the other hand. But many of the newer lines we use are tough to cut. And I try think through it to remember that it is there, as I can envision being panicked enough to forget it.

I like the tool link posted above, it looks like it could make quick work of the tramp with little worry of cutting somebody caught beneath.

The idea about the hose with a float on the end is excellent. Has anybody actually tried this?

I feel for the loss. Now having a child of my own makes these things seem more real and it strikes a cord that I probably wouldn't have felt before.

As for how to fix these things - a tough problem. Sailing and other activities are full of inherent risk. Finding ways to minimize those risks is always a noble pursuit - thinking through and being prepared is the best way, and correcting problems that will get you in trouble in the first place is best. But there's limits, lest we all end up sailing in plastic bubbles with life support.

As for the people who ended up legally responsible - I feel for them as well. Negligent under the law for sure as written, but this will be with them for the rest of their lives and I doubt there was any kind of criminal intent.
Posted By: pbisesi

Re: Capsize kills tourist - 03/24/06 06:58 PM

Rolf, I've sailed a little and am aware of what can tangle. The quick release systems that I know of release the hook not the entire harness. If you have a rash gaurd over the harness and life jacket that eliminates a lot of what can get caught. Whats left is the hook. Again the ball and socket eliminate that. I might be missing something (not the first time).
Posted By: _flatlander_

Re: Capsize kills tourist - 03/24/06 07:03 PM

Quote
Having a sealed mast with enough volume to keep the boat from turtling is the very best insurance against ever getting into such a situation.


Rolf: Yes, but...I think most would agree, at least in the case of the H16, I don't care how well the mast is sealed, in strong winds (when things happen fast, including mistakes leading to capsize) that this boat is going turtle. I don't know what is is about the boat (maybe the raised tramp?) they just do.
Posted By: fin.

Re: Capsize kills tourist - 03/24/06 07:08 PM

Quote
. . . this boat is going turtle.


Are you sure your mast is sealed? I had 4 different H16s over 10 years, got knocked down in some pretty nasty wind and never went turtle.
Posted By: _flatlander_

Re: Capsize kills tourist - 03/24/06 07:19 PM

"I think most would agree..." (I knew it when I wrote it), and strong (around here) is B7 and B8.
Posted By: Seeker

Re: Capsize kills tourist - 03/24/06 07:48 PM

This problem of turtling is a well know issue. Yet it hasn't been addressed by anyone in the primary phase of boat design, other than Bill Roberts. His Supercat and ARC catamarans are the only ones, that I am aware of, that build a large enough mast section to provide sufficient buoyancy to keep the boat from going turtle in all but the most extreme circumstances, this is not by accident …but by design.. Why hasn't anyone else followed suite. Yes you have the Hobie Bob, but that is nothing but an awkward band aid that hurts (or is perceived to hurt) performance. Why not adapt this simple solution to a potentially horrific problem. The increase in mast section size never seems to slow down Bill or Eric on the race course.
Posted By: PTP

Re: Capsize kills tourist - 03/24/06 08:00 PM

Why not a small gas powered life preserver type thing on the top of the mast that inflates on consistent contact with water? Or has some type of pull thing that you could run down the middle of the mast. Wouldn't be as big as a bob.
This could be easily replaced and relatively cheap.
Posted By: Eric Anderson

dangers of sailing - 03/24/06 08:05 PM

Not to be too callus but [censored] happens. Sailing is an inherently risky sport. No level of safety gear is going to change that. There will always be injury and death in sports.
In my life I have been an avid sailor, ski racer, ice boater and cyclist. All these sports have killed people I knew personally. That is all part of the deal.

I am a firm believer in minimizing risks when reasonably possible. I don’t think we need to go to extremes though. When cycling or iceboating I wear a helmet. The best money can buy in terms of safety and comfort. I also know a helmet won’t save me in a bad crash.
While sailing I wear the ball and socket harness. I also wear a rash guard over everything to cut down on the likelihood of getting snagged on a buckle or anything in a capsize. I always wear a lifejacket. I don’t sail on boats I can’t comfortably right. I wear a dry suit in cold water.
On the other hand I don’t carry a knife. I am opposed to the idea. I think the chances of cutting yourself outweigh the usefulness. I don’t have a mast float and I do sail alone on a single hander. I accept the fact that some of my choices may kill me.

Personally, I think it is insane to have a rule that kids have to have supervision on the water until they are 16. 8 might be more reasonable. Do you have to follow your kids around in a powerboat when they go sailing? No wonder kids sit around and play Nintendo. If you want a whole generation of Mama’s boys this is the way to get it. I think requiring them to have lifejackets might be ok although even that is questionable.

Sail fast, Take chances
Eric Anderson A class US 28, DN 5193


Attached picture 70756-img_5600.jpg
Posted By: fin.

Re: Capsize kills tourist - 03/24/06 08:06 PM

Quote
Why not a small gas powered life preserver type thing on the top of the mast


Hasn't that been done? CO2 cartridge with pull ring?

Some guys would just swim out to the mast tip and put a spare jacket under it.
Posted By: PTP

Re: Capsize kills tourist - 03/24/06 08:20 PM

Quote
Quote
Why not a small gas powered life preserver type thing on the top of the mast


Hasn't that been done? CO2 cartridge with pull ring?

Some guys would just swim out to the mast tip and put a spare jacket under it.

if they made something like that I would consider buying it. I have thought about carrying one of those seat cushions for that purpose as well. I have gone over many (well... enough) times and never gone turtle but I have been afraid of doing it.
I didn't even have a problem when I had to swim the thing to shore (don't worry Pete, this was all my stupidity- at the time- and the first time I had the boat out).

Hey, while we're at it- how do you make sure your mast is water-tight? If it has a leak up top but sealed on bottom then won't you just accumulate water and create a bigger problem?
Posted By: fin.

Re: Capsize kills tourist - 03/24/06 08:24 PM

Then we have something in common besides our initials.

". . .leak up top. . ." Yep.
Posted By: PTP

Re: Capsize kills tourist - 03/24/06 08:25 PM

BTW- about the making sure the mast is sealed- don't respond with "make sure it is sealed well with silicone" etc
Posted By: Seeker

Re: Capsize kills tourist - 03/24/06 08:27 PM

"Why not a small gas powered life preserver type thing on the top of the mast that inflates on consistent contact with water? Or has some type of pull thing that you could run down the middle of the mast. Wouldn't be as big as a bob.
This could be easily replaced and relatively cheap."


That may be fine for the boats that are already in existence...but why can't the boat manufactures just do it right when designing them...what’s so hard about making the mast sufficiently buoyant in the fist place by increasing the section size? This is by far the simplest and easiest way to solve the problem? It doesn’t have to look like a giant football or tootsie pop on the top of the mast.
Posted By: PTP

Re: Capsize kills tourist - 03/24/06 08:31 PM

Quote
"Why not a small gas powered life preserver type thing on the top of the mast that inflates on consistent contact with water? Or has some type of pull thing that you could run down the middle of the mast. Wouldn't be as big as a bob.
This could be easily replaced and relatively cheap."


That may be fine for the boats that are already in existence...but why can't the boat manufactures just do it right when designing them...what’s so hard about making the mast sufficiently buoyant in the fist place by increasing the section size? This is by far the simplest and easiest way to solve the problem? It doesn’t have to look like a giant football or tootsie pop on the top of the mast.


If my mast were any heavier I would need a crane to put it up or I just wouldn't sail at all. If all the masts in the future are carbon then I guess it could work, but until then, making bigger masts may not be the answer.
Posted By: fin.

Re: Capsize kills tourist - 03/24/06 08:32 PM

Checking mast for leaks? Submerge it in a pool and watch for bubble?

If it isn't a very active leak is it a safety issue?
Posted By: PTP

Re: Capsize kills tourist - 03/24/06 08:41 PM

Maybe pressurizing it through a screw hole and look for leaks with soap. In the end though, you may end up creating leaks with the pressure!
Posted By: _flatlander_

Re: Capsize kills tourist - 03/24/06 09:26 PM

On a nice warm day toss your mast into a nice cool lake or ocean, check base, top and hound, no pressurization necessary.
Posted By: Seeker

Re: Capsize kills tourist - 03/24/06 10:06 PM

"If my mast were any heavier I would need a crane to put it up or I just wouldn't sail at all. If all the masts in the future are carbon then I guess it could work, but until then, making bigger masts may not be the answer."

It works on the Supercat 17,19,20, the ARC 17, 21, & 22 Why not for other similar size cats?
Posted By: Wouter

Re: Capsize kills tourist - 03/25/06 12:01 AM



Give me a few days and I'll get the pics of my idea and send it too you.

Wouter
Posted By: Wouter

Re: Capsize kills tourist - 03/25/06 12:08 AM


Quote

Yet it hasn't been addressed by anyone in the primary phase of boat design, other than Bill Roberts. His Supercat and ARC catamarans are the only ones, that I am aware of, that build a large enough mast section to provide sufficient buoyancy to keep the boat from going turtle in all but the most extreme circumstances, this is not by accident …but by design..



Awww, please that is just nonsense.


Other designs with the same mast bouyancy characteristics :

All the Taipans (4.9's, 5.7's and even the F16's)
There is no way you can turtle a modern A-cat.
All F16's with the superwing mast have the same volumenious mast sections.
I seem the remember I-20's were pretty turtle resistant as well.

I'm sure a few others can add design to this listing.


Quote

This problem of turtling is a well know issue. Why hasn't anyone else followed suite.



The question is more why you think that others DIDN'T. You must not believe everything Bill R. says. In this case Bill was talking nonsense when he claimed no other designer ever took this into account.

Wouter

Yes you have the Hobie Bob, but that is nothing but an awkward band aid that hurts (or is perceived to hurt) performance. Why not adapt this simple solution to a potentially horrific problem. The increase in mast section size never seems to slow down Bill or Eric on the race course.
Posted By: mmiller

Re: Capsize kills tourist - 03/25/06 01:35 AM

Quote
Yes you have the Hobie Bob, but that is nothing but an awkward band aid that hurts (or is perceived to hurt) performance.


The Hobie Bob floats offer very streamlined shapes that have less wind resistance than a crew members head...

The key to the safety of the Bob is getting the needed floatation out at the end of the mast lever arm where it is most needed.

There were attempts at mast wraps for floatation. These offered larger areas of drag and less effective floatation.

The Bobs are great solutions for recreational sailing.
Posted By: hobie1616

Re: Capsize kills tourist - 03/25/06 01:45 AM

Quote
The Hobie Bob floats offer very streamlined shapes that have less wind resistance than a crew members head...
Matt, have you ever been picketed by the Crew Union? I see labor unrest at Hobie's Galactic HQ soon.
Posted By: Darryl_Barrett

Re: Capsize kills tourist - 03/25/06 02:19 AM

WOW did this thread get a response? When I went home last night there were just three replies, this morning there were 67!!.
Although I fully sympathise with the fact that an eleven-year-old child died, I still have to say that I consider it one of those very unfortunate occasions that do and will happen, regardless of whatever steps we take to avoid. Whether we like it or not. Circumstances outside our control or as some would call it “fate”, does seem to play a part in all our lives. From personal experience I was placed in a “life and death” situation on a cat some years ago, where I was “trapped” not as in this case by the rigging or trapeze wire, but by a mainsheet line around the ankle. I was on a small cat on fresh, flat water with a wind of only about 6 knots when I had to make a sudden tack to avoid a dingy on starboard. When going under the boom my foot became entangled in the main sheet and some how I found myself in the water on the other side of the boat being dragged along by the ankle with my head under water. This was a very worrying situation as, for some reason unknown to me to this day I couldn’t get my head above water and the force of the water was very powerful even in those light conditions. It didn’t help that the rope attached to my ankle kept pulling the main on tighter and tighter. I couldn’t reach forward to get the line against the water flow and I couldn’t raise my head above the water. Just as I had visions of not seeing my family again, the line suddenly went slack and my head bobbed above the surface. Another cat sailing close by had seen what had happened and run his boat into my bows so putting it into irons. As soon as the pressure had ceased the line literally just fell off of my ankle. I think back on that time occasionally and realise that IF the grim reaper really wants you there are no regulations, no steps, no circumstances that you can put into place to avoid his steely grip. Should all mainsheets be eliminated? Even if I had a knife I couldn't have used it (other than cutting off my leg - if I could have reached it -). Some tragedies “just happen” regardless of what we do. It’s called LIFE, and all who live will someday die and no one can change that.
Posted By: Tornado_ALIVE

Re: Capsize kills tourist - 03/25/06 06:30 AM

Just a thought, but has anybody also considered mounting a knife to the underside of the rear beam...... That way anybody close can grab and cut.

Remember one of the comments from officials at I believe it was SPA regatta where a Tornado crew died whilst trapped under the tramp. "The rescue boat did not have a knife on board and was unable to cut the tramp"...... A knife on the back beam could have saved this guys life.

Also regarding A cats will not go turtle....... I have seen it quiet a few times now and have even seen thier rigs snap from bouncing on the bottom.
Posted By: Rolf_Nilsen

Re: Capsize kills tourist - 03/25/06 07:16 AM

Steve, just getting the facts right. The Tornado accident was 2002, Palma de Mallorca during the "Princesa Sofia" trophy. A prolonged tragedy where one of the Haupl brothers, Johannes, was trapped in his trapeeze under the tramp. First coach boats that arrived did not have a knife onboard, so they resorted to trying to lift the boat up sufficiently to get some air to him. The danes coach boat arrived with a knife, but alas..


Good idea to have a knife on the mainbeam. If you need corrector weights, you can perhaps replace them with a wire cutter?
Posted By: Tornado_ALIVE

Re: Capsize kills tourist - 03/25/06 07:32 AM

Thanks Rolf for correcting me...... Been a while since the incident. Did not hear that he was caught in his trapeze when I orignaly heard the story..... Can you elaborate further on this at all.

Quote
Good idea to have a knife on the mainbeam. If you need corrector weights, you can perhaps replace them with a wire cutter?


Knife and wire cutters.... Good idea. Would not be a stupid idea to make it part of class rules. The F-18s currently must carry a compass, paddle, tow rope......
Posted By: Rolf_Nilsen

Re: Capsize kills tourist - 03/25/06 08:17 AM

Sorry Steve, I dont have more specific information on how he got tangled up under the tramp. Always wondered about that myself, and have missed a proper examination/discussion by the class.
Posted By: Wouter

Knife compulsory in class rules ? - 03/25/06 10:44 AM



I had too say it but indeed carrying a knife is compulsory in the F16 class rules !

Geez this rules setup is well though out.

Wouter
Posted By: Buccaneer

Re: Capsize kills tourist - 03/25/06 11:06 AM

[/quote]

If I had a young child, I would have been parenting that child and not have left the responsibility to others. [/quote]

I’d guess that's where the negligence played in. Cause of death however was most likely drowning by harness entrapment.

The ball system would prevent the hook from getting snagged but not the harness.
Posted By: bullswan

Re: Capsize kills tourist - 03/25/06 12:41 PM

Wasn't there a problem with the ball and socket harness a while back? Something about the materials used breaking prematurely or something like that? I thought they were pulled from The Store for some kind of defect. Has that been resolved because I plan on replacing mine this spring and I'd like to have confidence that it won't crack or whatever?

Greg
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Capsize kills tourist - 03/25/06 01:26 PM

The carbon harnesses don't break. It was the plastic ones they pulled. May go this route on my 17. Knife and cutters for sure.

Doug Snell
Hobie 17
www.tcdyc.com
Posted By: sail7seas

Re: Capsize kills tourist - 03/25/06 03:07 PM

On a long (about a hour) wild reach back to the beach in Puerto Rico, 2 meter swell, traveler almost all the way out, double trapped on a H16, I lost my concentation, capsized, turtled, and was held under the boat, by the shockcord wraped around my legs. I remained calm, but at some point wondered if I would ever figure out how to untangle myself.
A knife on my person or crew would of been helpful, I now carry a knife.
A quick release for the harness would have been ineffective as the problem was the bungee cord around my legs (unhooking was a no brainer).
A quick release of the shock cord in my case would have been more effective.
Posted By: Andinista

Re: Capsize kills tourist - 03/25/06 03:47 PM

The risk, in fact is not only associated with the trapeze, all sailboats have plenty of ropes and other stuff to get stucked with. I know of somebody that got trapped on a capsized Laser, with the tiller inside his lifevest, he managed to unmount the tiller, but recognized that it wasn´t easy to remain calm and figure out what to do.
I think it´s better that each one carries his own kinfe instead of storing it in somewhere in the boat where it can be out of reach. In the case I mentioned, the first thing the crew did after capsizing was to swim to recover the daggerboard that came out of the boat. She didn´t even think his partner was trapped down the boat and it took her a couple of minutes to get back to the boat.


Posted By: hobie1616

Re: Capsize kills tourist - 03/25/06 06:54 PM

Quote
I know of somebody that got trapped on a capsized Laser...
A friend who coached junior sailing on Lasers told me about boats going over and the sailor being trapped under the sail. He said he'd get along side as fast as possible and push them down and towards the hull with his foot. It's always something.

Let's be careful out there.
Posted By: bullswan

Re: Capsize kills tourist - 03/26/06 02:33 AM

I'm hearing over and over again how dangerous this sport is... Do you really think so? I always tell my wife that it's probably more dangerous driving to Massachusetts twice per week than sailing but maybe I'm wrong?
Statistically, do you think is it PROBABLE that one of us who frequents this forum eventually DIES while sailing? IF not PROBABLE then what do you think the risk is? 20%? 10%? Less than 1%? Seems to me, for all the people who sail, you hear of very few fatalities. Less than other sports popular around here. Certainly less than snowmobiling where at least 5-10 people died just this winter.... and every past winter about the same number. How many actually die from sailing activities? Does anyone know of anyone who died of a catamaran capsize? I don't.

Just wondering.....
Greg
Posted By: Chappie

Re: Capsize kills tourist - 03/26/06 03:32 AM

Darryl,
I had the exact same thing happen to me! I was sailing with an inexperienced crew, she was hiking, I went to hike out and missed the hook. I went overboard, the mainsheet wrapped TIGHT aroung my ankle (I thought I had broken my ankle), I was dragged underwater and the boat sped up while my crew dutifully hiked out on the trap. I thought I was going to drown. I always carry a knife when I sail....it was no use in this situation. Eventually for some unknown reason, the boat luffed up enough to release me....and then it took off at full speed with my crew. She eventually beached the boat but had no idea where I was. A passing powerboat picked me up and took me back to my cat. The point is, it can happen FAST, with no warning and even the best prepared skippers can be caught by surprise.
Posted By: Rolf_Nilsen

Re: Capsize kills tourist - 03/26/06 08:37 AM

Greg, I expect none who frequent this forum to pass away becouse of sailing catamarans. Fatalities are not very common, and I suppose most people on this forum are conscious about potenial problems. I would rate sailing catamarans as a very low risk sport. It's a technical sport, so one needs to take care of equipment and understand the working environment (wind and water), but I definately view this sport as safe.
Some do press the limits, like going on offshore trips on small cats. Those guys usually know what they are doing and take every precaution possible.
I know of only three fatal accidents from sailing cats over the last years. Johannes Haupl, Sven Schang and now this 11 year old girl. There has probably been many close calls, but we have no system for collecting those. Perhaps we should make an online database to collect those? In rock climbing, where death rate is rather high if you goof up, we have a system for collecting information about all accidents and potential accidents.
Posted By: bullswan

Re: Capsize kills tourist - 03/26/06 02:07 PM

Quote
Greg, I expect none who frequent this forum to pass away becouse of sailing catamarans. Fatalities are not very common, and I suppose most people on this forum are conscious about potenial problems. I would rate sailing catamarans as a very low risk sport. It's a technical sport, so one needs to take care of equipment and understand the working environment (wind and water), but I definately view this sport as safe.
Some do press the limits, like going on offshore trips on small cats. Those guys usually know what they are doing and take every precaution possible.
I know of only three fatal accidents from sailing cats over the last years. Johannes Haupl, Sven Schang and now this 11 year old girl. There has probably been many close calls, but we have no system for collecting those. Perhaps we should make an online database to collect those? In rock climbing, where death rate is rather high if you goof up, we have a system for collecting information about all accidents and potential accidents.


I think that is all correct Rolf. I agree 100%. Here is where I am going with this.......
I am trying to tie into an earlier thread of how to promote the sport to others and I think it could be said that this IS a very safe sport when compared to the "activities/sports" here in the States that are stealing away our potential future sailors like JETSKI'S and maybe even ocean kayaking. I hear of one or two deaths or serious injuries every week during the summer months from those activites. I never hear of sailing deaths or serious injuries (around here at least). In my business, we have a statistic we toss around quite often that 80% of leisure activity decisions for the family are determined by the female. Couple that stat with womens # 1 and # 2 concerns of SAFETY and CLEANLINESS (guess why Disney is so popular) and maybe catamaraning should be promoted to WOMEN as a clean, safe sport and then slip in the spitfire video to the kids and dads to promote the speed!

Just my 2 cents worth....
Posted By: Andinista

Re: Capsize kills tourist - 03/26/06 04:52 PM

Quote
Perhaps we should make an online database to collect those? In rock climbing, where death rate is rather high if you goof up, we have a system for collecting information about all accidents and potential accidents.


That would contradict your first statement, which I agree. I don´t think it is necessary be alarmist to do something about the potential risk that has been identified on this discussion, but it is a real risk, as it has sadly been proved, so it is worth to do something. For example emphasizing the use of the knife to make it part of the standard gear. It is nothing new, there are some specific ones on the market and some classes has incporporated it on their rules, as mentioned before, but it appears that the sport need to evolve a little bit to incorporate it as one more piece of standard equipment.
Posted By: Rolf_Nilsen

Re: Capsize kills tourist - 03/26/06 07:44 PM

Andinista, I was think about getting some statistics not only about fatalites, but close calls like Darryns and other accidents.
Posted By: Mary

Re: Capsize kills tourist - 03/26/06 07:49 PM

Quote
In rock climbing, where death rate is rather high if you goof up, we have a system for collecting information about all accidents and potential accidents.


What is that system/how does it work?
Posted By: Rolf_Nilsen

Re: Capsize kills tourist - 03/26/06 08:12 PM

It's a web based system. You enter all relevant information into a webpage and submit it, wether you was involved in the accident or just an witness is not important. What's important is getting the data. Information is then reviewed and entered into that years statistics.

Typical fields/questions are:
Contact information:
Time and place for the incident
Weather conditions
Terrain type
Traction/friction (snow, rain etc..)
Name/age/experience level of persons involved
Description of injuries
Main purpose of the trip undertaken (climbing, hiking, rapell, glacier walk)
Organized event
Activity when the accident happened (climbing, descending, free-climbing etc.)
Type of incident (fall, rockfall, glissade etc)
Short (terse) description of the incident
Why did the accident happen (multiple choice and free text)
Safety equipment in use
What could have been done to avoid the incident
Rescue, What, when, how, who, experiences from the recue
Other comments

All this information except contact information and names are then made available to the public, and at the years end a report is put together and the statistics updated. Out of these reports, it has been shown that inexperienced climbers are the most prone to accidents (no surprise there), and that experienced climbers mostly have accidents while returning from a trip. It has been quite useful.

The web form is available here (in norwegian): http://www.klatring.no/sikkerhet/pages/formUlykke.asp

Posted By: Mary

Re: Capsize kills tourist - 03/26/06 09:05 PM

How do you get people to submit information to the website?

In the case of sailing, I would think that would be the most difficult thing. Just in the United States, how would you even let all the sailors, both cruising and racing, know about the website?

And lots of people who have close calls of one sort or another don't think much about it, or else they are embarrassed to talk about it.

When people have really bad incidents, some of them don't want to talk about it at all.

Class associations don't like bad incidents publicized for fear it will reflect badly on their type of boat.

As a result, we only really hear about incidents that end in death or in court or in US Sailing's rescue awards program.

I have been told that Marine Patrol down here in South Florida rescues people in catamarans about once a month, but we never hear about any of those and we don't know what happened.

So, how can that kind of information about accidents and incidents involving beach cats be collected and compiled?

Most of the accidents involving catamarans for the past few years have involved collisions with powerboats or PWCs. But those are the ones that get the publicity.

This all still begs the question of how to get sailors to report all the incidents that only they know about (assuming there would be a place to make their reports and that every sailor knows about that place).
Posted By: hrtsailor

Re: Capsize kills tourist - 03/26/06 09:39 PM

Mary,

The problem with gathering statistics is that there are so many ways to interpret the information. How many fatalities, in how many hours of catamaran sailing, compared to how many other sailboats, power boats, water skiers, surfers, divers, and so on. You could make the numbers say whatever you wanted. I don't think life insurance companies increase their fees or deny coverage to sailors but they do for SCUBA divers and small plane pilots. They are the ones who make their living on knowing what is dangerous and what is not.

I have owned my Hobie 16 for 21 years and can't recall anyone around me or that I read about who was in serious jeopardy or injured other than one boat that capsized and was drifting for hours before the men were picked up in the ocean. I have never had an experience that I thought was life threatening or where I was in serious danger.

I looked at rental boats at different places and saw that most of the time they didn't have trapeze wires. That is a good thing. It is possible that the 11 year old girl would not have drowned if the boat didn't have trapeze capability.

I feel much more in danger driving to the lake or ocean than I do out on the water.

Howard
Posted By: Mary

Re: Capsize kills tourist - 03/27/06 02:01 AM

Howard,
What you are talking about is how to assess the statistics.

What I am talking about is how do you get people to give you the information in the first place. You can't interpret what you don't have.
Posted By: Darryl_Barrett

Re: Capsize kills tourist - 03/27/06 05:30 AM

Why not Mary, the government do it all the time for anything that they want to show in their favour?
Posted By: Rolf_Nilsen

Re: Capsize kills tourist - 03/27/06 09:00 AM

Mary,

US Sailing have already started something similar (found the link on Sailinganarchy):
https://live.datstat.com/RDR-Collector/Survey.ashx?Name=sailing10

It's not as userfriendly and well tought out as the "climbing" report, but usable.

I think that as long as the anonymous version of the reports are available for reading for everybody, beachcat sailors will submit what they experience or witness. It is pretty interesting reading..
Marketing of the initative would have to be done via class associations, forums like this and magazines.

It's just an idea, and something that has worked well within the climbing community over here. Not something I have tought much about or felt missing within catsailing.


Now, Darryl and Howard. One of the points behind this is to make the full reports sans names available on the web. Sailors can then read and interpret the results for them selves. As the reports are pretty standard, you quickly see the pattern behind what kind of accidents/close calls happen.
I think the US Sailing initative will not be very successful, unless the reports submitted are made available on the web somewhere (I did not see any link to results).
Posted By: bullswan

Re: Capsize kills tourist - 03/27/06 01:23 PM

Quote
Mary,

US Sailing have already started something similar (found the link on Sailinganarchy):
https://live.datstat.com/RDR-Collector/Survey.ashx?Name=sailing10
I think the US Sailing initative will not be very successful, unless the reports submitted are made available on the web somewhere (I did not see any link to results).


I didn't see any link to results either but there is a contact us email address. I would like to see the results of the survey limited though it is.

What other questions would you put on "our" survey?

I'd like to know:
1) what type of boat you received the injury on.
2) whether you thought the injury was from faulty equipment, faulty judgement, or flat-out bad luck.

Any others?
Greg
Posted By: Keith

Re: Capsize kills tourist - 03/27/06 04:16 PM

I had the line-wrap thing happen to me during a pitchpole on my Hobie-18. I was driving from the rear corner doing the wildthing when the boat dove in a gust. I slid down the tramp in the initial stuff and as the boat was going over and I was trying to climb back I found I had been snagged around the ankle by the jibsheet. I was able to free myself before the boat went fully over but it was close. I wonder if I would have had the presence of mind to cut the tramp with my knife to breath instead of continuing to struggle with my caught foot. Even with a sharp knife I wonder if I could have cut the line easily.

Most of the places we sail the regularly the mast will hit the bottom before the boat fully turtles. But out in the middle of the Bay....
Posted By: Wouter

Maybe you guys should .... - 03/27/06 07:38 PM



Maybe you guys should tidy your boats up more ?

Wouter
Posted By: Keith

Re: Maybe you guys should .... - 03/27/06 10:46 PM

Quote


Maybe you guys should tidy your boats up more ?

Wouter


Funny how things seem tidy until the boat becomes a submarine!
Posted By: Darryl_Barrett

Re: Maybe you guys should .... - 03/28/06 12:10 AM

That was tempting fate a little WOUTER,
Quote:


Maybe you guys should tidy your boats up more ?

Wouter

My trampolines are as neat and "spartan" as it is possible to make a tramp, and as long as there are "sheet lines" on a boat, you can get caught up in them. I just hope we don't read about "the late Wouter, tangled in a sheet line and drowned"
Haven't you heard of Murphy's law Wouter?
Posted By: MauganN20

Re: Maybe you guys should .... - 03/28/06 03:28 AM

He might have heard of Murphy's Law, but I'm hoping he's never heard of karma :P
Posted By: flumpmaster

Re: Capsize kills tourist - 03/28/06 04:29 AM

Quote
I had the line-wrap thing happen to me during a pitchpole on my Hobie-18. I was driving from the rear corner doing the wildthing when the boat dove in a gust. I slid down the tramp in the initial stuff and as the boat was going over and I was trying to climb back I found I had been snagged around the ankle by the jibsheet. I was able to free myself before the boat went fully over but it was close. I wonder if I would have had the presence of mind to cut the tramp with my knife to breath instead of continuing to struggle with my caught foot. Even with a sharp knife I wonder if I could have cut the line easily.

Most of the places we sail the regularly the mast will hit the bottom before the boat fully turtles. But out in the middle of the Bay....


I got trapped under the tramp of an 18 in a similar situation. A pitch pole while heading dead down wind. The jib sheet caught round my neck and I was under the tramp for perhaps 15 seconds (it felt quite a bit longer). I ended up ripping off my hat and glasses to get the rope off and lost both to the bottom of the lake.

On reflection I think the diving knife or safety hook is an excellent idea - time to go shopping.

My thoughts on this tragic accident - if regulations called for the 11 year old to be supervised then the employees of the company do appear to be negligent. Fitting mast floats to rental boats would appear to be a very sensible practice. When people buy and sail their own boats I would defend their right to personal choice and not mandate floats.

Chris.
Posted By: Mike Hill

Re: Capsize kills tourist - 03/28/06 04:06 PM

This is a very sad story. From reading though it did seem that the boat was being supervised by adults from a crash boat. It's really just a terrible accident. Also a reminder of bad things that can happen out there and to be prepared.

Deaths in cats are pretty rare. But cats are getting pretty rare also. I use to take this pretty lightly until I had an issue one day. I was running downwind and pitchpoled in a good puff. As I slid across the tramp somehow the bungie got a loop around my leg. After we flipped I was hung upsidedown until my crew could come and help free me. You can't break bungie and you can't pull it off until you can relieve the tension. After this I bought a dive knife which I wear on my lifevest always. People sometimes make fun of it but I can't imagine what would have happened had the boat turtled with my leg stuck in the bungie.

I also know that the award (I forget the name) was given out a few years ago because a woman had got the hook from the trapeze "looped" in the sidestay. The sidestay was actually looped around the hook. There was no way to free her. After struggling for a long time her skipper was able to get the harness off of her so that she could surface. This was a very close call and only due to her skippers quick action was her life saved.

I also know of 4 cats totally destroyed by motor boats.
1. Eric Arborast H20
2. Barry I20
3. Gordon Isco's A cat.
4. Tornado by a coach boat. The skipper lost a leg in this incident.

These are all people I've met or know and so this is not an uncommon occurance. Be careful around powerboats. They are clueless.

With all of that said, I also believe catsailing to be a very safe sport when precautions are taken and common sense is used.

Mike Hill
www.stlouiscats.com
Posted By: SunnyZ

Re: Capsize kills tourist - 03/28/06 04:49 PM

Quote
Mary,

The problem with gathering statistics is that there are so many ways to interpret the information. How many fatalities, in how many hours of catamaran sailing, compared to how many other sailboats, power boats, water skiers, surfers, divers, and so on. You could make the numbers say whatever you wanted. I don't think life insurance companies increase their fees or deny coverage to sailors but they do for SCUBA divers and small plane pilots. They are the ones who make their living on knowing what is dangerous and what is not.


Most of my experience has been with White Water Kayaking in West Virginia. Between 1995 and 1997 all commercial rafting companies were asked to report fatal and non-fatal injuries. It was very difficult to compare data on different rivers because the conditions were so varied. We did find commonalities in types of injuries. The most common was facial injuries, usually after bailing out in a rapid and getting hit by the boat. People between 20 and 29 had more injuries than those over 30. The most telling was of course experience with the boat. Those with less than 20 hours experience were the more likely to die in circumstances where boaters with greater than 100 hours of experience reported a 'near miss' or suffered injury but lived. (One of those near misses was mine)

I mention this study because I think it would be similar in catamarans. The conditions would make the data difficult to compare but if you look at WHO gets in serious trouble, it is directly related to experience more than conditions. For instance, a very inexperienced sailor might assume too much about a motor boat giving them way. It might be interesting to see what injuries are common to the sport. From what I am reading it seems to be legs and in particular knees. What is your feeling?

Also...men were 14 times more likely than womento have a fatal injury but, like catamaran sailing, I would guess that has much more to do with who is participating in the sport. There aren't very many women kayaking either.
Posted By: dacarls

Re: Capsize kills tourist - 03/28/06 06:15 PM

Before vowing to carry a large, sharp knife on your person:
try to cut a piece of mainsheet, jibsheet, spinsheet or bungee with it. Then try it under duress, being dragged, or hanging upside down. It ain't so easy. Some of these modern (Kevlar-containing?) lines are very difficult to cut.

Check it out, even nipping off a bit of your new line- to have a fair idea what, and how fast, and even IF it can be done! The life you save could be your own-or your kid's.
Posted By: Tornado_ALIVE

Re: Capsize kills tourist - 03/29/06 01:47 AM

If in that situation, forget cutting the main sheet, cut the tramp and sort yourself out from there...... It just may save your life
Posted By: Bcatsailor

Re: Capsize kills tourist - 03/29/06 04:01 AM

I had a similar incident happen, and consider myself fortunate to have been told by a few in my fleet to always have: A knife, with a serated edge if you can, keep your wits about you while ABOVE water and always remember - don't panic. Very, very sad incident, but I do understand this is a rare incident (?).
Posted By: scooby_simon

Re: Capsize kills tourist - 03/29/06 07:52 AM

Quote
If in that situation, forget cutting the main sheet, cut the tramp and sort yourself out from there...... It just may save your life


Exactly.

Get some air, then worry about un-tangling !

You need to think this thru as to what order you do things and have it clear in your mind.

1, Which way is up (trust me it's not as silly as it sounds)
2, Air route (cut tramp?)
3, Now breathing, less speed required
4, Un-tanglement
5, Recovery
Posted By: bvining

Re: Capsize kills tourist - 03/29/06 01:04 PM

Gerber makes a safety knife with a serrated blade.

The Gerber has a rounded tip, so you cant jab or cut yourself with it if you are trying to get the knife between your body and whatever has you tangled.

Spyderco makes one too, the point isnt quite as round as the Gerber. http://shop.store.yahoo.com/landfallnav/ssk08.html

I couldnt find a picture of the Gerber.
Posted By: fin.

Re: Capsize kills tourist - 03/29/06 01:12 PM

I'll bet there are more (sailing) deaths from hypothermia than drowning.

If memory serves, there have been 5 deaths r/t hypothermia and alcohol in Southwest Florida in the last 25 or 30 years.

None by drowning that I'm aware of.

Correction- recently a guy fell out of his dingy and drowned. This while trying to board a monohull. Alcohol was a contributing factor.
Posted By: rbj

Re: Capsize kills tourist - 03/30/06 02:20 AM

Some great safety advice here.
A few questions:
1) If you use a blunt tip safety knife with a serrated edge, can you still easily cut the tramp? I'm concerned that with the blunt tip it may be hard to get the cut started?
2) Yes, good idea to put the knife where you can get at it with either hand; do most people put it on the front of their PFD to do this? If not, where?
3) Do most people use a sheath on their vest to hold the knife rather than a flip open style knife?

Jerry
Posted By: Jamie Diamond

Re: Capsize kills tourist - 03/30/06 03:07 AM

I am also a fan of the gerber river shorty.

I wear it on the hard point on my life jacket. It is a snap-sheath style. This means I can easily access it with either hand.

I haven't tried to go through a tramp with it as a test but I am confident that I could. The blade has a blunt squared of tip that can be used as a screwdriver or to pry in an emergency. The blade is thick so that it won't break easily.
Posted By: ReefedOne

Re: Matson QR buckle... HUZZAH!! - 04/08/06 08:44 AM

Quote
Had almost this same incidence happen with my wife as crew...
Sliding face first down the tramp her hook caught the center tramp lacing and within seconds she was two feet under water, attached to the tramp... Thank God we had the circa 1980, quick release hook. Does any one remember what I'm talking about? Looks identical to the small (not spreader bar) type harness buckle, but had a short line tail to actuate a spring loaded release mechanism (the whole hook and backing plate slid out of the frame). This saved her life. Diving down under the water, against the bouyancy of the life vest was difficult enough, not leaving me much time to do anything other than pull that cord and yank her out from under the boat and to the surface.

Was there some suspected defect to these? Back into cat sailing/racing after several years off I notice they're not available any longer (at least not in the Hobie catalogue). I have some older style harnesses I'd like to outfit them with. Are they still available somewhere?

We believe in quick release.



Flatlander18, I believe you're talking about the excellent Matson QR (quick-release) buckle. Not sure why they are no longer made... probably some @!*& lawyers involved. I know of no design defects, and mine has never let go when I didn't want it to. I have simulated "rescuing" myself with it under loads exceeding my body weight, and it releases nicely. I also like the plastic retainer which keeps you from coming unhooked when slack, and will retain the hook in an emergency release.

Mine is holding up well and you can't have it. ;') The new replacement (from a different mfr.) in the Murray's catalog looks to be weaker, less failsafe, and (*ta-DAH*) FOUR times the cost! Is that "progress"???
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