Would money prizes be good or bad for the sport?

This is a very open-ended question that really needs debate rather than a yes-or-no poll, because for some people it might be a simple black-and-white issue, while for others there might be many variables that would affect their opinion one way or the other regarding specific events or specific types of events.

not good.

I played paintball for money at one point in my life. It turned an otherwise enjoyable sport into something I haven't even touched in many many years.

I think it depends on the race.
If you want professionals and people who really take the sport seriously to compete then yes money is a good idea.
But if you want people to have fun and enjoy the race then no its not a good idea, because then people become obsessed with winning and forget about having fun.

Mary:

I think it might lead to a situation where those with the biggest budget to spend would always win, unless it was very strict one design classes, What do you think?

Doug Snell
Hobie 17
Soon to be Mystere 4.3
www.tcdycc.om

Not good...
Need the pickle dish!
You need that for bragging rights, the money just goes in the pocket.

Clayton

I think you need to look at the America's Cup competition to see what happens when you allow unlimited amounts of money into the sport. I know there is no "Cash Prize" but the winners get millions in endorsement money and job offers, might as well be a cash prize. Of course to be an A/C winner you must invest millions of dollars then commit to a 3 yr., full time, every day racing campaign, oh, and be able to buy the best designers, boats, crew and skippers. That's what would happen, on a smaller scale, if there were substatial cash prizes. You would lose the fun, it would become a business.

The free beer is incentive enough for me. Please, let's keep the cut-throats out of small boat racing.

It would be bad for the sport. Need to mantain the Amateur status. Must avoid the "Arms Race", and keep the field open to all. We need to keep it affordable to all to grow the sport. That is why many of us prefer the one design boats.

In the early days of outboard power boat racing, the pros had even numbers and the amateurs had odd numbers. You could tell the difference.

When Colman bought Hobie Cat, we were given stock at a major regatta. Never cashed in the stock.

Although, look at the Olympics. It is no longer just for Amateurs.

Caleb

The America's Cup has morphed into racing billboards.

I think it would not make much of a difference.
Compare that to other sports such as tennis. With the ATP
tour and lots of money involved, there is still a number of local events where
amateurs of all levels compete.

Money prizes would surely widen the gap between amateurs and professionals
and possibly lead to a larger number of professional sailors,
which - as a consequence - might also increase the number of amateur
sailors participating in races.

If it would lead to better technology and improvement of the sport I would be for it. I just don't want to see professionals compete against amateurs. It would be a loosing battle. Money would win out.

Doug

Some kind of full blown Pro Tour circuit production (like the F1 18 footers) just might help. If it can be televised in scenic venues, marketed properly, with all the onboard and air-born cameras. I recall the Olympic? post about some screaming reach finish parallel to grandstands on shore.

This may spark a few viewers to find out a little more about catamarans, maybe buy a boat and possibly race in a local event.

and just for clarification "the sport" is catamaran racing, right? Not Opti's or J22's.

I'd not be willing to subject my and your boat to possible damage, with money on the line. Start racing Wave's for money and count me in.

As I recall a pro circuit was tried a number of years ago on Hobie 21's. I do not know why it did not last. Probably it was not profitable enough for sponsors and sailors.

If it caught on and sponsorships for a series were secured, TV contracts signed (with real meaningful money), then it would have a huge effect on the highest levels of sailing. The weekend warrior crowd will keep doing their thing.

NASCAR wasn't that big until Winston came around as a sponsor, then big companies parolled teams, TV picked it up and now it is a hugg money sport (?). This had little effect on local dirt trackers, but gives them some hope of the "big time".

We had an event with cash prices for the first three in each class (A, H16, interseries) last year and it was quite a success. No pros showed up, but all the guys that had been sailing some years ago got some friends boat out of the backyard and participated. Prices were 1500, 1000 and 500 Euros if I remember well.

The Pro Sail circuit included the Hobie 21 and Pro Sail Formula 40s. Cool stuff, there were races near shore for spectators, sponsors, TV time. And it died...

Our club occasionally does what we call the Turkey Buzzard race around the time of Thanksgiving. Teams put in $20 or so, and the top boats take the money home. Low key fun and nobody needs to make trophies.

Not sure what the effect would be on a bigger scale. To make the money truly worthwhile the events would need good sponsors or the entry fees would have to go up quite a bit. Other than that the amount you'd get wouldn't be much incentive.

When it comes to money - people get real funny - my 2 cents

I have to aggree with on of the other post, once money is involved as a prize, things starting getting weird, and entry fees start going up

If there are money prizes, it means that someone is throwing money at the sport, and probably not just to make the winners happy. Chances are the same spender will be throwing money at advertising and media coverage to get his goals realized. With that would come more money for race organizers (and therefor for the organizing clubs). So in the end, if money prizes mean more visibility for our sport, it should be a good thing (assuming visibility equals vitality, and assuming we all care about vitality of the sport).
But the day money prizes will be so significant that people will derive real income from them, that day is far away. It should be a "nice bonus, extra drink money" but bigger money prizes may trigger all sorts of negative side effects that I would gladly pass on.

I remember watching one of the races that was held on San Francisco Bay. They had miked Tom Blackaller (of A/C fame) who was skippering a F40. It was pretty interesting to watch the cat leaving the camera boats in their dust and hear Tom yelling at his crew.

Tom was also one of the color guys for the humongo New Zealand boat vs. Dennis Connor's cat. In one race the Kiwis got around the weather mark first and then found a hole. They got clear and the cat found the same hole. All the monohull guys on TV said that was the end but Blackaller told them to watch. The cat got clear and beat the Kiwis by minutes.

During the after race press conference one of the cat's crew was asked if they could have beaten the Kiwi's with a Hobie 17. He said no but it was a nudge nudge wink wink kinda moment.

I think it would be a good thing. There is alredy a professional level to the sport with big money sponsors. Offering prize money will only add depth. I raced bicycles as an amateur until I got good enough to earn a sponsorship and a paycheck. My desire to win and enjoyment of the sport didn't change because of the money, but it did give me - and lots of other riders like me - another level to shoot for and the means to train and race at a higher level.

Look at any sport with prize money offered at events and compare them with sports that do not offer cash prizes. Which has more exposure and more participation - at all levels? The answer is easy. Offering prize money will have little to do with who can offord the best gear (look at any mainstream sport for proof), on the contrary, it will probably encourage one-design sailing and bring out the best sailors.

Whose Money do you want to give away?

Are you talking about awarding a sponsor’s prize money to a mixed fleet of pro’s and amateurs?

Are you talking about a Pro grand prix series… aka the Volvo 40’s?

Are you talking about cash prizes raised by the entry fee’s of the mixed fleet of pro’s and amateurs and the regatta management chose to not purchase trophies and gave cash instead?

Are you talking about large cash prizes raised by charging a steep entry fee and raised from a mixed fleet of pro’s and amateurs? (Similar to the Poker Tournament that are so popular these days)

These are events that have run in the past with cash prizes.

The F18HT class had one successful regatta in Virginia Beach about 4 years ago awarding significant cash to 5 deep.

The Seacrets Cup in Ocean City MD awarded about a 1000 bucks in cash plus silverware for three years before they realized that the local sailors who they wanted to support were not served by this kind of event. It morphed to a race that required a skipper and a kid racing on a 16 during the week.

The Volvo 40’s hit the USA in about two weeks.

The New England 100 awarded cash prizes from the entry fee’s in one of it’s last runs.

As far as I know, nobody has organized an event like a poker tourney with steep entry fee’s which award a significant cash prize to the winner.


My take home message from running or attending some of these events is that the CASH PRIZE is not sustainable. All of these events have not succeded long term.

Racing for the pickle dish... is sustainable!

Promoters run events with cash prizes.... Clubs run events with pickle dishes...

I personally choose to spend my time working with clubs which award the pickle dish....

Some of those pickle dishes are really OLD and mean quite a lot in the end.

Check out this site: NYC photo's

I was not thinking in terms of professional racing circuits. I was thinking in terms of the kinds of regular, round-the-cans regattas that all us "normal" sailors go to. What if some of those were able to get sponsorship that provided prize money in addition to trophies?

NOT money that would come out of the pockets of the sailors themselves -- entry fees would be the same as usual. Everything would be the same as usual, EXCEPT for the money prizes.

Most entry fees barely cover basic regatta expenses.
It's not easy to find sponsorship for any small cat racing so the money would probably have to come from registrations.
I would not want to pay more entry fee so that the top 5 will get prize money knowing that I have almost no chance of ever making it into that top 5 in any large event.
When you look at a Nationals or Worlds there are only a few people that have a chance to win.

The Sharks in Canandaigua have had a board at their event where you can pay to enter and pick what you think your finish position will be.
If you're right you win. You can finish 52 and be the big winner.

You could just draw 5 random finish positions at the end and award those people equal prize money. This might keep everyone interested and willing to pay a little more.

I would prefer to leave it alone and get my picture taken with the $7 trophey that cost me $1000 to get and be able to look back at it later and remember some good times.

Indeed!

You can burn up your fleet volunteers just LOOKING for sponsorship money.

Take a look at the monohulls as well... They don't have sponsored events with cash prizes... Hell they don't even allow advertising on the sails in their races!

They put what sponsorship money they get into a bigger and better party or trophy.

As Pat noted... it's not the cash or seven dollar trophy that you want... its the priceless memory!

Your local club dues probably just cover the cost of keeping the fleet organized, insured and awarding some trophies at the end of the year.. The regatta fee is high enough so that you hope to make a few bucks that cover the use and replacement of the equipment and offers a free beer to the fleet member who put up the tent.... fetched the beer, put together the trophies, designed the art work, staffed the mark boat, scored the regatta, posted the results, wrote the PR, NOR, Sailing Instuctions, ogranized the food, took the trash out of the park... etc etc etc etc.

ITS A CLUB.... NOT A BUISNESS.... if you don't pitch in and do it...odds are ... it won't get done.

I often feel that people act like they are buying a service from Walmart. OR.. that they are some how entitled to a nice regatta...

If you had to pay the staff of an event just minimum wage for all of the services you get.... You would be broke.

It's a CLUB....run by volunteers for IT's MEMBERS!

Hint... it's time to join US Sailing, Your Club and your Regional Sailing Association which makes things happen in your area. It's ONE HELL OF A DEAL!

Rant off
Mark

OK...let's focus here. This is not about how or what it would take, but is it a good idea if the cash was readily available for a purse at the end of the regatta with no additional output from the sailors? We have such a regatta in Myrtle Beach - the Sun Fun Dash which is a distance race running up and down North Myrtle Beach (multiple times) during their Sun Fun Festival. The North Myrtle Chamber of Commerce puts up somewhere around $2000 for prizes that are divided for the top three positions in two classifications. ($500 for first, $300 for second, $150-200 for third). You have to fill out a tax form if you win prize money.

I can say that even with the purse, the turnout to this regatta has been a bit small...although I don't think the sailors talk much about it because they want a better shot at the purse! Seriously though, it has not affected our actions on or off the water one bit and we still have a great time. It's only a trophy of a different sort.

Personally, I've seen a lot more tit-for-tat and what I might consider "unsportsman-like" behavior on and off the water lately. It's more about the personalities than the prize at the end of the regatta.

This is a very old and tired argument. There is nothing wrong with "normal" cat sailors racing for prize money, the problem isn't in the concept, the problem is, and has always been that "normal" races between cats has never been able to attract anyone/business to put up any reasonable and ongoing money for "cash prizes" other than the occasional sporadic small amount in the short term. There just isn’t the return on the investment. Many people have tried over the years to organise “cash prize money” races at the “off the beach” level, and none have ever been able to “go the distance”.

I concur Mr.Barrett.Companies like the new beachcat division Vector Marine is sitting in a ripe position to set up a money stakes race.With their f18 or f16 should it come here to the US. there are to many ego's and probable law suites in the way........

I think Matt (VMI) has been using his millions from selling beachcats buying Lexus's, helicopters, and the sort. Greedy bastard.

Does'nt prize money also come from getting other businesses to sponsor the race with Vector marine for example heading up the project.So Vector marine is going in the tank ,Greedy bastards!Thanks Brian for the heads up.

I was just joking around about Matt! Although when he gets his helicopter he better take me for a ride.

When ever have I been taken seriously? I think really they should just put a brand new boat for first top of the line from whoever puts the show on get sponsors to pay for it or 1 million dollars! You get the same uuhh's and aahh's.

So-- Who has access to a model RC helicopter with a digital video camera on it, and a big tank of glow fuel?

There's an autonomous model helicopter with a digital camera linked to the ground station via radio in the next cubicle. I don't think I can borrow it, however. $$

Sorta like this?:

Australian Skiff scene.......

Skiff clubs a decked out with pokies, water views, restraunts, bars...... People from sailors to old salties to non sailors come to the club for a feed, a few drinks and put some money through the pokies whilst watching the on the water action.

By law, in Australia a club must return a certain % of funds generated through the pokies back to the sport the club is built around. Most Skiff clubs will pay their sailors both starting money, finishing money and there are cash prizes based on both line honours and handicap. This makes the sailing more afordable = more sailors on the water = more people visiting the club. I have heard that starting and finishing money is enough at some clubs to pay off a new boat every 3 to 4 years.

Some other skiff clubs spend some off the money on junior development programs whilst other clubs supply boats and have marketing people empolyed by the club to find sponsors for boats.

The Yarra Bay 16 Skiff Club in Sydney is now offering Catamaran sailors $100 for a Yardstick win every first week of the month with the remaing 3 weeks the winner on personal handicap walks away with the $100. Not big $$$$$ but is the first time I know off where Cats have been offered the $$$$$. Only a new concept for them so we will wait and see how it goes.

What exactly is a "pokie"?

Mary,
The One Armed Bandit or Poker Machine may be know to you by the term slot machine.

Regards,
Phill