Hobie 18/F18 conversion

I need more speed from my beach boat. Here are my questions:
1. plan to add a spin, want to snuff it, want to run it from the sidestays instead of rear crossbar. Lenght of pole? sail size? end pole or mid pole snuffer? Anyone done this?
2. Looking at square top main, any advantage? disadvantage? don't have comp-tip on mast, have 9 to 1 ratio on main and power downhaul.
Thanks for any and all advice

For all the money you'll spend on doing this conversion, you'd be much better off just selling the 18 and buying an F18, Tiger, or the like. If you want a bigger boat, then a Nacra 20 would fit the bill as well. Also, you'll have an actual fleet to race against with the F18's.
I have all the stuff for the conversion, including an F18 spinnaker, spin pole, and midpole snuffer (hand made), so I know what goes into it. We had it on a Nacra 5.5. It takes quite a bit of effort and money to do this conversion, and in the end just buying a boat built for a spin is the way to go!
Anyway, didn't you just sell the fox?

Trey, believe it or not NO! I am still trying to sell it, have several offers, but no money yet. I am a beach sailor as you know and none of the new spin boats can take the sand. I sail up and down the coast and with a spin that trip is more fun and faster. The 18 is more durable and with the wings more comfortable. I don't plan to ever race again so how I set up the spin is unimportant. Do you have everything I need, thought Soloman bought your setup for his 16. Thanks, Michael

I would second what Trey says. I was thinking about the cost if you were to use Formula 18 parts.
$900 Spinnaker
$200 Pole
$300 Snuffer system
$200 Blocks
$ 50 Cleat (halyard)
$100 Sheet
$ 60 Halyard line
1810 Total

Estimate that does not include the labor and thinking time.

Hobie 18 worth $1800?

I am thinking that is about $3600 towards a Formula 18. You can pick up (these mostly in catsailor ads):
Inter 20 $7950
2001 Tiger $8500
Tiger $7500
These may not be available at this moment but you get the point.

I cannot believe you sold a Fox and are thinking about making a Hobie 18 faster by putting a spinnaker on it. The Fox was a good boat! One of the Fox owners on this coast put a large main, equaling the I-20, and it was an awesome boat! Just as fast as the Inter. You would have more boats to race against having done that, as well. Who can you race as spinnaker Hobie 18 against? Put out a little more money and get a Formula 18. It will have resale as well.

Later,
Dan

Dan, Thanks for the info. I have no interest in racing and clam shell spin boats are too delicate for extensive beach use. My Fox is proof of that. If I had any intention of racing I would have kept the Fox, great boat but too fragile for my uses. I have all the blocks and cams and sheet lines, I need a snuffer set-up and a chute. Super sails can make a chute for approx. $500, an aqua cat mast might work for a pole, $75 and the skunk head or mid-pole snuffer is the most pricey part. Any other ideas or used equipment?

I'm more than willing to put money on the table as to the ruggedness of the I20.

The TheMightyHobie18 is the only boat that I'd not have concerns over dragging on asphault, but the I20 has taken repeated beachings tons of times over the past 5 years and just now has needed a bottom job.

And our centerboards have stayed where they are supposed to.

What gives? Why are you hanging it up? You know it's not the clamshell construction but the brand of boat that is having difficulty with the sand. The Nacra 5.0 through the 6.0 have a great history in the sand - the I20 is no slouch either. In my opinion, a Hobie 18 would convert OK to a spinnaker but if you really did mean "F18", it's notable that the curved beams on the TheMightyHobie18 are not F18 legal....but I think you meant more about adding a chute. You may start by referencing the dimensions on the 18 Magnum but I believe it was a bit of an underachiever.

The 18, especially with Magnum wings, is a hell of a cruiser (USN). If my boys weren't so hell bent for racing I wouldn't sell mine. I know when they're gone I'll wish I still had it, a great boat for two couples, but a real pig downwind. I totally relate to the want of the spinnaker...go for it!

Maughan, touche on the board trunks, can't dispute that.

Maugan, I agree the I20 can take it. Its just my wife and I and 20ft is overkill for us. Jake, I also agree with you especially after your Nacra killed my old 18 and stayed together. As for racing, my luck or aggression gets me in bad situations that don't turn out well for me. The Fox is still not sold 5k can take it today!

18 with a chute is fun. Good addition for fun sailing. I ran a 12.5' pole, was advised not to go more than 13. 12.5 felt right. If you don't want to sheet to the back beam, look for a newer design high aspect kite. The original SX chute was old style, too much foot to it to sheet anywhere but the beam. A newer F18 chute should have a shorter foot.

You can get the main stuff new and spend the cash, or you can shop the Tiger guys for used race gear that is still good for cruising and save a bunch. i just sold all my stuff for $450.

I didn't have a square top but I'm guessing that would be a great addition.

If you have the original molded plastic rudders, ditch them for some EPOs or a set of new racing blades. Expensive, but well worth the improvement in helm.

For those that say the boat is a dog downwind - your mast is raked too far back. Rake killed the downwind performance on mine. Mast all the way forward gave great all around performance. Only time to rake was when it blew big time.

I had a Hobie 18 for 19 years. The sails were seriously under-developed. Back before spinnakers were common, I cut the top off a full, mylar, Mystere 6.0 mainsail for the Hobie 18 and the infamous "Mystobie" was born (I made a combined class logo for the sail)! I lost only a few square feet of sail area with a new big fathead sail (I even made a cut out in the head board to gain a few more inches of hoist) and the 18 suddenly would beat any 18 or 20 foot sloop rigged boat in light or medium wind boat for boat. It was very noticeably faster.

Try that option before going to all the trouble with a spinnaker. It is worth it because you always use the main so you get the most bang for your buck and you do not have to change anything. Cutting the top off a bigger sail is the way to go. The class sails were always poorly made, too flat, and of dacron material. Shortly before Hobie quit making the boat, they came out with much nicer sails that made the boat a little faster (doncha just love "strict one design"?) The boat has much more speed potential but was hampered with no "engine" development due to class rule restrictions. So this development makes a big difference, is easy to do, easy to handle, and a good value.

The stock Hobie kite for the 18 works OK. With a 12.5 ft pole you can sheet it from about half way between the side shroud and the rear beam (just make some stainless bars that fit under the hull lip to spread the load in the style of Hobie 16 shrouds).

A used windsurf mast works well for a pole. Vectran works for rigging it (use shackles instead of clevis pins where the bridles attach to the hull and you can tie off to these).

The Performance mid pole snuffer goes well with this set-up but is pricey. I have rigged the above set up to two peoples boats in the last couple of months and they love it.

You may try contacing Anthony Aquila on the Yahoo beach cats list (he's friends with Lee Wicklund) - he makes his own snuffer hoops and they seem to work well and are quite a bit cheaper.

Bag launching the kite is also an alternative. In desperate times I have crewed on an I-20 and had to bag launch the kite from a sleeping bag stuff sack when the regular pole with snuffer was M.I.A. Cheap but liveable if you are determined.

As you aren't racing I don't suppose rapid take downs are really important.

As for square tops, they do make the boat go well but are pricey. The guy I sold my 18SX to put a set of Ulman sails on the boat and it is pretty competitive in Portsmouth racing. A cheaper alternative may be to pick up a used F18 sail (e.g. Hobie Tiger Square Top) from some racer who is upgrading to the latest whiz bang extreme square top sails. The Tiger mast is 19 inches taller (requiring a recut) and the head board would need modification. An 18SX mast is about the same height as the Tiger if you can get a used one cheap.

I understand your view point about the 18 - they are sturdy and spare part boats seem to be readily available for good prices.

Chris.

Are the diamond tangs, spreaders and boom as good as identical on the Tiger and Hobie 18 masts? And the extrusion of comparable stiffness? If not, a Tiger sail will not really fit very well unless you re-cut the luff to match.

Keith,

That was me or I am "those", look at your picture, the 18 just sits down. Comparitively speaking it is not a bouyant hull design. Don't get me wrong, I loved passing H20 sailors upwind on an old beater, but when you round the weather mark they're gone.

If you have to do it I have an old chute for a Tiger that I will sell you. How bout $200. It would be fine to cruise. I have used it lately for pleasure sailing. If you buy it I will send Rick $10 for this ad.

Later,
Dan

You may want to check the hoist height before putting an F18 chute on a Hobie 18. F18 mast height is about 28.5' or so and the spinnaker runs only a couple of feet shy of that. I would be a little concerned about doing that to a comptip mast ... but if yours is still aluminum it will probably be OK (as long as the mast height is similar - otherwise you will end up with a masthead spinnaker!).

I was concerned when I drilled into the comptip, to put on a new tang, while installing a spinnaker on a Hobie 16. I thought it was not a good idea but that is what they said to do. It has not broken so far and I have not heard of problems breaking that part of the boat due to chutes. They must put the, what is it, Magnum(?) spinnaker on the comptip. I do not know at all but I suspect it cannot be at the top of the forstay. There is too much going on there.

Later,
Dan

I've got a used 18sx mast here in Raleigh if you decide to go with a bigger mast for the tiger main.

Dan and Jake, No comptip crap, all aluminum. Couldn't I have the Tiger chute cut down? Super Sails can make a spin for $500 based on 18sx specs, maybe should use Tiger specs and shorten height. Trey, changing the mast would mean changing all standing rigging and a new main sail, not sure the extra height is worth it. Sold the Fox, gave it away for 5k. Also, would a dacron square top main make any noticable difference in speed. On the ocean 10kt wind is common, 20kt many afternoons and when the small craft advisory is issued its time to raise the sails. Thanks for all the input!!!

The 18 does seem to sit deep in the water - the hulls have very little freeboard and the boat is terrible stern dragger. If you race with heavy crew weight the problem is even worse. I usually top 200lbs, and I found that this boat wanted to be lighter no matter what the conditions. Anyway the three rules to make it work were - weight forward, weight forward, weight forward.

If you have conditions that involve any waves, you'll be smacking the tramp and crossbeams, and getting the wonderful hull lip in the water which is drag city.

But... If you keep the weight forward and the rig forward and get the wild thing going you will piss off some other boats. I ran my 18 for quite a few years in our Portsmouth Fleet and took a bunch of trophies home. I only ran the spin the last year I had it. Without the spin there were days when I hung with the local Prindle-19 (no slouch) and others going downwind. In breeze that meant having the crew to leeward at the front crossbeam playing his weight for and aft as the boat needed, and me sitting in the middle of the tramp or back if the wind was up. Really had to pay attention to getting in sync with the waves or you sit on them and go slow - head up to catch the wave crest, head down to surf, head up before you park in the next one.

That having been said, I would not expect to go boat for boat with a 20 unless you have good breeze and flat water. If you're passing H-20s upwind and choking downwind, I believe you have too much mast rake. I could realy feel this - the worst were days when I thought the wind would blow and I'd rake, only to have it go light be left without any downwind speed at all. I even unraked the mast once on the water during a light air race once to undo the pain. Run the mast all the forward. You'll lose some upwind performance, but the downwind will come back to you.

With the spin I found I could roll the faster non-spin boats downwind, and then they'd have to catch me going upwind, only for me to get them again on the next downwind leg. It was a great way to put a slower boat right in the middle of the 5.8s, P-19s and such.

Also - if you're sailing with old sails, get a new set of sails from Hobie at the very least. The new set I got were awesome, really woke the boat up from the old set. If you go non-Hobie get a decent sailmaker and do a flat top. From my experience the after market sails that claimed to be just like stock were not, and in fact had less sail area (I can send some pics to prove that) and different batten configuration.

Also - I've said too many times, but if you have the molded rudders ditch them as fast as can. Even if you are recreational sailing. I can't believe these were ever sold on these boats. You can grab the tip and deflect them by hand. I actually spun the boat out as they flexed under the load of gust going downwind (fortunately it was around a mark and looked pretty cool). The first time I jibed in wind with the new blades I almost threw the crew off the boat - we had never felt the boat carve a turn like that before.

Instead of rigging the stays for the pole to the bridle tangs, consider drilling a small hole in each bow lip, run the vectran into those and dead end them there. Gives a little better angle to suppor the mast. Pics are of a windsurfer mast pole rig, sail is old-style SX spin, boatis regular 18.

Another pic, with sail up during mock up.

I don't know much about a Dacron squaretop, but I have a Pentex on my Hobie 17 and in a puff the boat just MOVES!! It does not stretch at all. I noticed a REAL big difference in light air. The extra area up top really make it move in light wind.

Good luck.

Doug

Keith, I have the black glass rudders that came out in the mid '80s. Saw some carbon epos at my dealer, they're bad butt. Are the black ones no good? I thought the white plastic ones were the junk.

I've seen the molded pastic ones come in both white and black. If your rudders are glass or better you're ok. It's the molded ones that suck. If you can deflect the tip of the rudder with your hand, you've got the molded ones. You can also look at them and tell.

Keith,

You're exactly right. Firm believer in "no rake" for the 18. We actually asked for a third hand during setup to jam the forestay deeper in the bridle.

Back when there were only a few 20's and now, only a few 18's in combined starts is my reference for the 18 vs. 20 upwind. Granted the nut on the tiller has a lot to do with those results...then and now.

DO the anything but plastic, not sure there is that marked an improvement from fiberglass to EPO.

I have a tiger black pole and snuffer with a Skip Elliott bag. I will sell it for 265.00 and will give Rick ten dollars for an add.

Dave, I'll take it. My e-mail is [email][email protected].[/email] Let me know how to pay and pick-up. Dan, if the spin can be cut down I'll take it as well. Not sure if it can or if its worth it. Please e-mail me also.

I"ve been reading this thread and have a few comments. I've had a Hobie 18mag since 1985 and a P-19 since 91'. In 1999 I converted the P-19 into a "mx" with a new set of "square topped" main and oversized jib. I also at this time added a Nacra 6.0 bow foil because of concerns of bow loading and deflection. I installed a spinnacker purchasing a used 25sq m Tornado spinnacker in 2003 for the P-19mx. Please note that this is a flat cut spin, in the mono world I think it would be called a jennacker.

1) The Hobie 18 is the best all-round beach/race cat. It is almost indestructable and has all the adjustment of the 20'speed machines. It is an extremely versitile platform.

2)The Hobie 18 was Killed by the "One-Design" mantra of the NAHCA. The NAAHCA held their meetings for rule changes at the 16 Nationals ,so with out any 18 sailors present the H16 sailors voted down any changes or up-grades including changing the class wieght limit to 315lbs so as to give heavier weighted teams a different platform to race on.(Question to Hobie: Does it make marketing sense to have these two classes @ the same weight?? competing for sales. I quess you wanted to kill it.) The only upgrades to the boat have been, jib pigtails for the jibsheets and a increase in the downhaul purchase.

3) Keith is on the right track and so is Mike. Their suggestions are spot on. But Keith, you got the best set of West Coast Catamoran sails I'd seen in many years and you had a solid mast. I haven't seen another set near as good since then. I've only heard horror stories since then of poorly constructed over-priced junk that has to be re-cut/re-sewed.

4)Lengthen you jib track: the jib track is availible for little cost along with traveler cars (ref: layline, APS). This will give you adjustment fore/aft for the spin sheet. This adjustment is good if you are buying used spins. Also in light air you furl the jib, move the spin sheet aft far as possible and you have a BIG jib to scoop and accelerate the airflow on the back-side of the main when beating to weather.

5) I started with a fiberglass 15' wind-surfer mast as a spin pole, I liked the tappered look vs the pipe/plumbing look, but had some issues. First I had to cut it down to 14'. Using the scrap "but end" and a piece of a broken Hot Stick I constructed a Dolphin striker for the pole. Because of the bow foil I have a very small window for setting my pole hieght, its lashed to the underside of the foil and deflected w/ the dolphin-strker to set the tip hieght. I used spectra/vectra/deneema basically as discribed in the other postings, tip of pole to tip of bow, middle of pole to shackles at bridle tang and for the dolphin-striker. Now here was the problem, upon the first sail the pole did "the egyption". It stayed in column port/starb but it deflected under compression every time we hit a wave, doing a sine wave curve in the vertical axis. (it was awesume and scarary at the same time. So it was back to the beach for some West Epoxy and CARBON FIBER!!! So here is the advise; start with a Carbon fiber mast!!!


Now at this time I am starting to put my Hobie-18 back together so I can race with my 12 year old niece. (I bounce her head first into mast from the wire last year on the 19mx w/o spin in a micro-burst. This was/is not a good thing to do!)(Know and remember your limits and know when to quit!!!) The 19mx is just a little too powerful for us above 10kts of winds yet. But the H-18 needs a new set of sails, so I priced a new set from West Coast....$1300.00.... and I have very little confidence that they will be correct!!! I'll most likely have to have them recut/resewed at some added cost! This is extremely upsetting to me that I'll pay that much money and get an sub-standard product. Since I race mostly "open" events I would like to see a vertical-cut, racing-dacron, fat-head/square-top keeping the sq-ft of the sail plan the same. (This will minimize the portsmith correction) Is there anyone out there with the same thoughts???

Hope my ideas have helped.