MKL Preliminary / Finish / uncorrected

Miami to Key Largo Race - 2006
Preliminary Finishes


Finish # Last First Boat Name Made by Type Length Sail # Class Rating
10:36:29 030 ROBERTS ERIC DREAM ON AQUARIUS RC 30 30 3030 BIG DOGS 0.531
10:46:02 085 ROBERTS BILL AQUARIUS ARC 22 22 30 BIG DOGS 0.570
10:47:55 086 KELLEY MIKE HEY BABY AQUARIUS SUPERCAT 22 22 2210 BIG DOGS 0.570
10:54:10 020 SCHIEFER CARLA M-20 20 1 BEACH CATS 0.580
10:54:48 089 TIERNEY / BREW MIKE / CALCULATED RISK AQUARIUS RC 27 27 34 BIG DOGS 0.560
10:59:22 018 RODRIGUEZ ENRIQUE TORNADO MARSTROM TORNADO 20 804 BEACH CATS 0.590
10:59:45 039 BAKER MARK 2ND CHANCE NACRA NACRA 5.5 18 462 LOW PORT 0.670
11:00:25 043 LOHMEYER STEVE CASTROL PERF CAT INTER 20 20 castrol 1 BEACH CATS 0.593
11:02:18 073 MURRAY / HERNEDEEN TEAM SPACE COAST MARSTROM TORNADO 20 850 BEACH CATS 0.570
11:02:50 042 SONNENKLAR J CASTROL PERF CAT INTER 20 20 castrol 2 BEACH CATS 0.593
11:03:22 060 ESQUIVEL JOHN MARSTROM TORNADO 20 1 BEACH CATS 0.590
11:04:28 014 MAYO CLIVE MARSTROM A-CAT 18 170 BIG DOGS 0.620
11:07:59 025 GREENE TERRY CASTROL II NACRA INTER 20 20 BEACH CATS 0.593
11:08:42 012 LEFUR ALEX U.S.S. MARION BARRY NACRA INTER 20 20 BEACH CATS 0.593
11:12:58 023 LANGEFELD KARL WHITE LIGHTNING NACRA NACRA 6.0 20 60 BIG DOGS 0.590
11:13:12 058 NEWLYN MARC NACRA NACRA 6.0 20 405 BIG DOGS 0.601
11:14:08 036 MCKNIGHT JOHN HOBIE 20 893 HIGH PORT 0.650
11:23:45 094 ARGERGAST ERIC BREAKIN WIND AQUARIUS ARC 21 21 2101 BIG DOGS 0.617
11:25:37 105 LIPKUS MARK SNAKE PIT REYNOLDS 33 10 MASF RACING -72
11:27:20 079 MOSS BRET XANGO MARSTROM A-CAT 18 US 140 BIG DOGS 0.620
11:30:08 017 ROBLES WILDER WILDERGFX.COM VMI BLADE F16 16.33 701 HIGH PORT 0.657
11:38:30 051 BECKMANN CARLOS HIJOLES HOBIE 16 105108 HOBIE 16 0.760
11:41:21 061 RUSSELL DOUG XANGO HOBIE 16 5150 HOBIE 16 0.760
11:43:31 067 MAFFETONE STEVEN HOBIE 16 108100 HOBIE 16 0.760
11:43:49 154 NEWBERRY SARAH HOBIE 16 HOBIE 16 0.760
11:45:25 139 WHITE DAVE NACRA NACRA 6.0 20 394 HIGH PORT 0.626
11:47:36 037 STOLBERG BILL HOBIE 16 108031 HOBIE 16 0.760
11:49:27 032 WILSON DANNY 79 LOW PORT 0.707
12:00:33 011 CORSON SCOT HOBIE 16 44 HOBIE 16 0.760
12:17:13 127 DE LA CAMARA FERMIN FELIA PRINDLE 19 333 HIGH PORT 0.664
12:23:50 137 FARBER LARRY CAT IN THE HAT INTER 20 I 20 20 460 BEACH CATS 0.593
12:26:47 095 CORRAL GUSTAVO PRINDLE 19 368 HIGH PORT 0.664
12:40:13 090 ROOTS JULIAN HOBIE 16 HOBIE 16 0.760
12:43:37 064 HARRINGTON NICHOLAS NACRA NACRA 5.8 120 BIG DOGS 0.637
12:44:30 053 ROEDIG ANDY TRIMATIC CORSAIR 24 24 356 MASF RACING 75
12:45:01 059 WILLIAMS JIM ELYSIUM JOHNSTONE E-SCOW 28 MI1 OPEN
12:48:25 115 LOPEZ RAUL I FLY CORSAIR 24 24 102 MASF RACING 75
12:51:07 081 GULLEY KEITH TRIDENT CONDOR LMTD CONDOR 40 40 41507 MASF RACING 18
13:00:10 135 SULLIVAN RAY SECOND WIND DUFOUR 44 63 PHRF 1 63
13:02:22 074 HANSEN NORM ROBINOX CROWTHER BUCCANEER 33 17 MASF RACING 75
13:05:15 108 LUHRING GARLAND STICKY TONGUE CORSAIR 24 CORSAIR MK II 24 416 MASF RACING 75
13:12:37 005 COOPER L.S. G-CAT 20 G-CAT 20 HIGH PORT 0.626
13:12:52 133 WOOLSEY CHRIS MOSTLY HARMLESS SR 33 33 28533 PHRF 1 63
13:18:55 047 AHARAL CARLA DUE SOUTH CORSAIR 24 F 24 24 83 MASF RACING 75
13:20:26 022 BARRONS JAMES LOVE IS … CORSAIR 24 F 24 MARK 1 24 37 MASF RACING 22
13:25:41 110 GREGORY KURT KEY WEE CORSAIR 24 CORSAIR MK II 24 407 MASF RACING 75
13:27:32 112 EVERHARD BOB JENNEAU 49 JEANNEAU SUN ODYSSEY 49 ARC 1 69
13:28:52 116 ETTIE GORDON SAZERAC SWAN NAUTOR 40 50403 PHRF 2 96
13:32:02 044 CATALANO MIKE MOVING PARTY 4 MELGES 24 185 PHRF 1 81
13:32:12 113 HELMICK DAVY 21 ON TUESDAY MELGES 24 119 PHRF 1 81
13:35:28 121 SHELLOW / RUBIN RICHARD / JEFF TRIPTEASE TRIPP 33 118 PHRF 1 78
13:35:54 131 COGGESHALL GEORGE HUZZAH !! MELGES 24 446 PHRF 1 81
13:36:19 009 MESTRITS THOMAS DON QUIXOTE SEAWIND 36 1066 MASF CRUISING 114
13:37:25 035 MERO LARRY ODIN JENSEN CAL-40 39.5 5198 ARC 1 126
13:42:41 077 SLOSAR DICK HIGH YIELD MELGES 24 163 PHRF 1 81
13:42:42 071 VALDES OSCAR VANDAVAL DUFOUR 34 5 PHRF 2 126
13:42:47 126 CACACE PAT BLACKBIRD C&C 32 US 27 PHRF 2 102
13:44:50 088 SEGHI TOM GROUP THERAPY 2 MELGES 24 PHRF 1 81
13:45:49 104 CLEE RANDY DUTCH TREAT C&C EVELYN 32-2 32 40082 PHRF 2 96
13:46:55 054 SVENDSEN CAI CARALUNA FAIRPORT YACHTS C&C 99 32 52 PHRF 2 102
13:47:41 102 WAITE OLIVER SHADOWFAX J BOATS J-29 29 53384 PHRF 2 111
13:49:00 028 MENDELSOHN VICTOR CATNIP SEAWIND 35.83 1007 MASF CRUISING 117
13:49:27 010 PAREDES WILFREDO SUNQUEST BENETEAU 41.67 228 PHRF 3 144
13:49:59 029 CRESSMAN JERRY AIEMEF MELGES 24 371 PHRF 1 81
13:51:35 156 ELLIS BILL CUNNING STUNTS J BOATS J-27 27 63156 PHRF 2 129
13:52:35 123 SNYDER DAVID LES CHENEAUX HUNTER MARINE 44 466 ARC 1 114
13:54:35 055 SUKPHISIT PECK PRINDLE 16 2733 LOW PORT 0.775
13:54:54 066 WHELAN D WIND PIRATE JEANNEAU 39 9267 ARC 2 129
14:00:13 057 BRANDAN HAROLD SAMBA PA TI SANTANA 39 23529 ARC 2 138
14:11:12 049 CRIBB SR VICTOR VICTORY MORGAN 27 27 20 ARC 3 171
14:13:02 045 PATTENGILL STEVE PEPE HUNTER 27 27 101 PHRF 4 186
14:17:00 015 PETELER MICHAEL UNICORN CREEKMORE CUTTER 36 8 ARC 4 195
14:18:09 019 KRAMER MIKE BACKDRAFT HINTERHOELLER NONSUCH 33 37 ARC H 186
14:19:06 125 PRICE BUD TREKKA MORGAN MERIK 36 365-19 ARC 2 138
14:21:20 136 SHELDON JOHN SASHAY TARTAN 34 34 412 ARC 3 174
14:21:40 124 LECESNE DIRK VIVA SWAN NAUTOR 37 PHRF 3 138
14:21:56 001 PETERS TERRY ISLE OF VIEW MORGAN 38 17 ARC 3 174
14:24:44 078 RICK HALL ST CLAIR VENSON CAL 29 3284 PHRF 4 183
14:24:57 091 MITCHELL KAREN SAILINGFOR LIFE.ORG ONTARIO SONAR 23 PHRF 3 171
14:25:34 087 MARTINEZ V. ANDRES BLITZKRIEG J BOATS J 24 24 USA 3696 PHRF 3 171
14:26:29 080 PAVEL JOHN FIFTH CYCLE GEMINI 105 33 905 MASF CRUISING 168
14:29:46 075 WEBERNDORFER DAVID AMITIE JOHN ALDEN CUTTER 39.33 ARC 5 204
14:36:48 084 HURLEY TOM GIZMO ERICSON 35 ARC 3 150
14:39:31 111 WEBSTER CHRIS AQUALEO HERETIGE 38 ARC 6 219
14:39:42 101 GRUSON KERRY BLEW BAYOU ONTARIO SONAR 23 458 PHRF 3 171
14:40:21 056 LOVELADY MICHAEL MISTY C&C 30 718 ARC 4 183
14:41:22 122 NELSON RON SOL Y MAR TPI LAGOON 37 MASF CRUISING 141
14:42:40 024 ADAMS JIM NIRVANA BENETEAU 30 7 PHRF 4 186
14:42:49 082 BARNEY BILL CONSCIOUS SEADATION HUNTER 37.5 37.5 37813 ARC 1 126
14:44:18 106 PHELAN MICHAEL ANTICIPATION BENETEAU FIRST 38 40 50734 ARC 1 117
14:45:04 033 MARQUES GERALDO ZEPHYRUS BENETEAU FIRST 310 31 310 PHRF 3 159
14:46:00 050 NEGAS DAN RODAN JENSEN CAL 27 4845 ARC 5 207
14:46:57 117 SORIANO JUAN OCTOBER J BOATS 28.5 26 PHRF 3 168
14:55:34 008 RICHARDS STEVE FAR NIENTE HINTERHOELLER NONSUCH 30 444 ARC H 174
14:55:48 109 CORSANO STEPHEN GREEN FLY CORSANO NICHOLSON 36 360 ARC 3 177
14:57:09 007 OLSON DAVID WHISKERS HINTERHOELLER NONSUCH 30 159 ARC H 174
14:58:54 114 RIQVELVE ENRIQUE ZEPHYRUS BENETEAU 33 ARC 3 174
14:59:43 138 BRESCHER MIKE BOUND AWAY MORGAN OI 36 3 ARC 5 210
15:00:32 006 KEARNS JOHN KAREN PEARSON ALBER 35 35 ARC 4 195
15:00:40 046 SAYLOR RICHARD SAYLORMAN SABRE 28 28 517 PHRF 4 198
15:00:50 031 SORG STUART SPECIAL WARFARE RANGER 28 45 PHRF 4 186
15:01:47 120 TEMPLE CHRISTOPHER RUTHIE MORGAN MORGAN 321 31 ARC 4 195
15:02:18 083 HUTSON BRUCE SWAN HUNTER 38 ARC 2 138
15:04:12 013 KELLY JOEL MANDALAY ALDEN 38 JA38 ARC 5 210
15:05:17 034 LANGEFELD KARL FREESTYLE HINTERHOELLER NONSUCH 30 312 ARC H 174
15:06:32 157 HARDEN WAYNE BLUE NORTHERN CC RIDER S CROSS 31 ARC 6 257
15:08:18 052 DODGEN DAVID WILDEST DREAM CALIBER 47 ARC 1 117
15:14:04 100 NOTO LIZ SAIL LA VIE HERRSHOF BRISTOL 34 ARC 3 171
15:20:47 040 RAWLINGS II HENRY MARINERA BRUCE KING ERICSON 28.7 239 PHRF 4 204
15:21:54 026 MILAN CLAY TWO STEP SEAWIND 36 1051 MASF CRUISING 120
15:22:39 062 AUWAERTER ART SOLDAWNA SINO AMERICA LANDFALL 39 29 ARC 6 231
15:24:24 021 PALAZUELOS RAY EL BRAVO PEARSON 32.67 257 ARC 5 180
15:37:37 096 THORSON LARRY ROBIN HINTERHOELLER NONSUCH 26 44 ARC H 216
15:43:54 048 DUNCAN JIMMY HOBIE 20 215 ARC 4 186
15:47:22 027 BOONE STEVE NAI'A MANA HAKE YACHTS SEAWARD 32RK 32.5 133 ARC 5 210
16:01:52 004 ROBERTS PAUL JOLI SPOT GEMINI 105 33.5 812 MASF CRUISING 168
16:27:38 068 JORGE MARIA HALCYON MONTGOMERY 17.17 406 ARC 6 294
17:04:50 132 NORRIS JACK MAGIC CARPET ESPIRIT 30 MASF RACING 48
DNF 003 LAMOUREUX MARC VELOCITY JEANNEAU 42DS 41.25 ARC 1 126
DNF 118 ADAMS WILLIAM KALI BENETEAU RACER 38 ARC 2 135
DNF 016 FRY HUNTER OCEAN MIST SHANNON SHOALSAILER 35 2 ARC 3 144
DNF 128 TRAINOR CHARLES SHERPA MORGAN OI 41.2 3 ARC 4 192
DNF 130 HAMILTON GUY 3 KINGS ENDEAVOR 37.5 107 ARC 4 192
DNF 065 MUSTIN III HENRY SEA BIRD ENDEAVOUR 32.33 ARC 5 213
DNF 069 COUCHMAN DAVID TRANQUILITY HAKE YACHTS SEAWARD 32 seaward ARC 6 228
DNF 038 KIRBY / HERBICK DOUG / ANDY TYGART RACING NACRA INTER 20 20 BEACH CATS 0.593
DNF 076 PHILLIPS MICHAEL MARSTROM M-20 20 USA 2 BEACH CATS 0.580
DNF 097 LOYA IVAN TORNADO 20 BEACH CATS 0.590
DNF 002 WATTS MARTIN MARSTROM M18 18 HIGH PORT 0.646
DNF 134 POGREBNOV VICTOR ORCA H.B. ORCA 19 3 HIGH PORT 0.600
DNF 151 KENNEDY MICHAEL PRINDLE 19 HIGH PORT 0.645
DNF 092 HALEY BARRY NGILANDELE HOBIE 16 107760 HOBIE 16 0.760
DNF 152 DERDERIAN R HOBIE 16SE 109384 HOBIE 16 0.760
DNF 041 LAUGHLIN ROY AQUARIUS SUPERCAT 19XC 19 LOW PORT 0.690
DNF 098 CARVALMO JUAREZ PRINDLE 16 LOW PORT 0.775
DNF 119 CHRISTIAN SUSAN REACHING PROUT ESCALE 39 MASF CRUISING 141
DNF 070 LIVINGSTONE GEOFF STILETTO 30 MASF RACING 30
DNF 155 KOSTAR DAVE STILETTO 30 21 MASF RACING 48
DNF 072 HORN RUSS JAMMIN C&C EVELYN 32-2 32 32204 PHRF 2 102
DNF - WD 063 RUSSELL DICK HOBIE 16 108499 HOBIE 16 0.760
DNF - WD 153 IVALDI ALBERT LICKETY SPLIT ERICSON 5.5 32 17 PHRF 4 198
DNS 093 REYNOLDS ELIAS BLEW BAYOU NACRA NACRA 6.0 20 HIGH PORT 0.626

5 ARC/RC/Supercat designs in the TOP 20. Hmmmm....

"5 ARC/RC/Supercat designs in the TOP 20. Hmmmm...."

4 ARC/RC/Supercat designs in the TOP 5 not too shabby...
Regards,
Bob

What were conditions like?

Close hauled/close reach on port tack the whole way. Winds mostly around 10-15 knts with a couple of light spots.

Were those finish times Elapsed time or actual time of day? What time did it start? Thanks. Hey, how wide are all those SC's? Are the 22's 12 feet wide?

The race started at 8am. The times listed are the time of day for the finishers. I'm sure I will be corrected if I'm wrong, but I believe the race distance is about 45 miles. Correct???

"...about 45 miles...."

We all have been reading about and writing about this race for many years, and still nobody seems to know the exact distance. It is always said to be somewhere between 40 and 45 miles, and the word "about" or "approximate" is usually used. I have even heard estimates from as low as 38 miles to as high as 47.

In these days when everybody has a GPS, it seems like somebody would have a more exact distance, since it is a pretty straight shot from start to finish. A more exact distance would make the elapsed times more meaningful.

39.8 miles
34.5nm
64 km
using this course on the attachment.

40 miles of close reaching on port tack - arrgh!

And the spi boats still get their spinnaker handicap hit without being able to make use of them. An extra disadvantage with respect to spi-less boats they need to overcome. Some crews will have been sore both physically and handicaply !

Wouter

Its no wonder that the Supercats were first to finish, they are MADE for these kinds of races.

Not only that, but because of their gift rating they'll win overall too.

stir....stir...stir...

Jake, bring the popcorn!

I think [color:"green"]corrected[/color] it comes out with a Nacra 5.5 in first and a pair of Hobie 16s taking 2nd and 3rd. Not a real surprise at these boat are perfect for this kind of sailing and have ratings that reflect it.

Later,
Dan

No doubt a Hobie 16 in those conditions is a freaking rocket.

[Insert handicap racing rant here]

OK!


Perhaps this one might be more appropriate...

you calling me a nut jake?

"have you seen its latest rating? its creeping up there slowly!"

*cough* :P

I just heard a rumor that there is a fox in the Supercat henhouse...Or should that be a dog in the supercat house?... Anyway, this will get interesting and you'll see what I mean in about 8 months.

Hey Jake and Tad,

You guys crack me up. Being such cat sailing experts that you are, I figured that you knew all the boats out there by now. Look closer at the results. The 2nd and 3rd boats to finish the race were ARC22's, not Supercats. There is a difference. They haven't been called a Supercat in a long time. As far as the rating being a gift, I don't think a 57 is a gift. In fact that rating has done nothing but go down since I've owned my boat. I think the only lower production boat rating is the RC27 and RC30. You guys must be confused by Bill Robert's old Supercat 20 and that rating. That's a different story. Maybe I missed it but I didn't see any results for that boat in there.

I invite you guys to come down to Pensacola and race ARC22's with us some time. We have 5 in the area and one more on the way. Be glad to take you out and let you see what it's like. You can even bring one of those tiny "F18" cats or "underpowered" I-20's. We sail those too!

Stir, stir , stir... you started it. Attached file for you!

Well, I'm the expert. I don't know about jake though

I'm also the *NOODLE* pooh-bah around here.

Easy there trigger! I made no commentary as such. I just brought the popcorn.

Yeah don't drag jake into this.

I don't like sharing my spotlight. :P

No way is Jake being let off the hook. Popcorn = intent to stir. Besides, Tad has way too much spotlight on this forum as it is.

Let me know when you guys want to come down and sail. September would be good -- you could do the 'Round the Island Race.

Went to the awards banquet last night. I think I heard that the 5.5 was scored DNF.

I think popcorn means lets sit back and watch a "noodle" fight

You call this a [censored] fight, oh please Wouter and Sam have got to be rolling their eyes at this point.

Here is how you have a [censored] fight.

1 - the SC22/ARC22 = same damn thing!

2 - 22 feet, 38 foot stick, and more sail area than the Cutty Sark and a 57.1 rating, oh come on! You, me and your momma know that's a BS rating

3 - How could the number going down? You can't change the number without data, and you guys don't run those things around the cans and that's where the data comes from.

4 - They are light air machines, who wants to sail in light air all the time? Nevermind that's a rhetorical question.

5 - The Alter Cup N20's sold for 14,500 what's an ARC 22 going for these days?

Jake FEDX my bucket please, I'm hungry too.

Now I don't claim to measure up to Sam or Wouter but it will do won't it?

Ding

Stay away from popcorn, that stuff will only make you fat.

If you guys can't do any better than this, I'm gonna start talking politics again!

It's the butter. Popcorn, by itself, has very little nutritional value

Jake, Jake, Jake:

Well Jake, why are you leaving tidbits (e.g. rumors not popcorn) temping my curiosity? Where is Paul Harvey when when you want the rest of the story? So what is the rumor about an animal (fox or dog) in the Supercat/ARC henhouse that will come to light 8 months from now? Come out with it.

doooooohhhhhhh!

Nice job Ding! Sorry, I didn't realize this was supposed to be a fight or I might have tried a little harder. I don't type well enough nor care enough to take the time to post a "Wouter" rebuttal, but here goes.

1. The SC22's were the first boats out and some of those were fiberglass, all the ARC22s are carbon. Also, there was a court battle that forced the Supercat name to be dropped or changed while the battle went on. Don't know the whole story. They are the same hulls other than that as far as I know.

2. Don't cut us short, the mast is 38.5 feet, 12 foot beam.

3. DPN Ratings

2000, DPN = 58.9
2001, DPN = 58.5
2002, DPN = 57.8
2003, DPN = 57.3
2004, DPN = 57.0
2005, DPN = 57.1
2006, DPN = 57.0

Just the facts. They've gone down since I've had my boat.

4. Light air machines - yes. I read in Sailing a while back where they claimed that up to 85% of all races were run in light air. You may dispute the percentage, but fact is that there is a lot of light air racing done. Not a bad boat to be on.

5. What's price of the boat got to do with this discussion? Yes, it cost a lot more that a N20. Maybe 2-3 times as much. What's your point? I didn't buy the boat because it was cheap. I bought it because I liked it and wanted it. Besides, we have 5 bewteen Pensacola and Destin.

Enjoy your popcorn and have a nice day.......

Do you race bouys with them here in FL? I have never seen one on the course, so I don't know if they race with spinnakers or not. Are they on snuffers, "manual", or roller-furled?

Great on light air distance racing (Mug comes to mind), but judging from the jib-only finish at Hogsbreath, they are a handful over 15 kts. But then again, what boat isnt?

[color:"green"]BECKMANN CARLOS 105108 HOBIE 16 4:47:30[/color]
[color:"green"]RUSSELL DOUG 5150 HOBIE 16 4:51:15[/color]
ROBERTS BILL 30 ARC 22 4:51:17
[color:"green"]MAFFETONE STEVEN 108100 HOBIE 16 4:54:06[/color]
[color:"green"]NEWBERRY SARAH HOBIE 16 4:54:30[/color]
KELLEY MIKE 2210 SUPERCAT 22 4:54:35
ROBERTS ERIC 3030 RC 30 4:54:42
MAYO CLIVE 170 A-CAT 18 4:57:32
MCKNIGHT JOHN 893 HOBIE 20 4:58:40
[color:"green"]STOLBERG BILL 108031 HOBIE 16 4:59:28[/color]

Want to win a "Ratings Race?" Sail a Hobie 16. Too much ranting so far? I don't think so. I have combined the top of all the [color:"green"]Corrected[/color] multihulls and sorted them out. This is just the top 10. Hobie 16s are 1,2,4,5. You think that Super Cats and ARCs have a gift? Now what do you think? This is why I like One-Design and Formula racing.

Later,
Dan

apparently the race was a close reach.

I'd expect the H16's to do well.

These are good sailors, not everyone can keep a H16 on it's toes for the better part of 5 hours!

Good job!

<<>>

Sailing/winning with corrected time serves a vital purpose in allowing a vast array of boats to race together...but if given the choice, I would rather be the first one to hit the finish line and lose , than come in an hour behind the lead boat and win on corrected time. Of course seeing many of us cannot afford a "big dog" my second choice would be to win on corrected time...LOL

So Jake or anyone else,

The breaking news story eight months from now will be that Supercat hulls are made from fiberglass and gelcoat and ARC hulls (except ARC-17?) are made from lighter and stronger materials. Is that it? What about the fox or dog in the ARC henhouse? Surely the rumor has got to be better than that? Come out with it Jake.