Cat Class Suicide?

It seems like cat sailing has grown over the years but still hasn't been able to push into a more mainstream and regularly raced status. Couldn't one of the reasons for this be the many many different types of cats spread out amongst a not as great number of sailors? It seems like every year a bunch of new "revolutionary" cats come out that are suposed to be better and faster but each time they do they divide an already thin fleet. Even though these new boats contribute to the development of cat sailing it seems like the cat racing community is more in need of unity than a slighty more efficient hull design.

Does anyone have any thoughts or comments on this topic?

Mark:

I would suggest everyone do what I did. Try to take at least 6 newbies out a year. I have helped 4 of them get cats. AND none where new high tech boats!!

Doug

True, but what can you do? Sail the boat you like and just take things as they come.

Haven't we already done this one?

This is the advantage of formula racing.
New or old, all included.

Mark, I think you are mixing cat racing with cat sailing. Cat sailing (not racing) seems to be growing, especially in the charter world, as more people find out you don't have to spend the whole trip at 6 knots max, leaning over the rail getting splashed and sea sick. Charter cat fleets (35-45 footers) are on the rise, vs. monohulls.

As far as racing, the F18 class has brought many racers together that were previuosly spread out on the Hobie 20, Inter 20, Nacra 6.0, Nacra 5.5, Hobie 18, Hobie 17, etc. That is why that class is growing while the others are shrinking. The same number of sailors, but in the same class instead of spread out.

There is still the whole stigma of sailing being "Too hard" as well as too fickle, that is, we depend on the wind, which doesn't always cooperate. But as gas prices keep going up, maybe more people will consider sailing instead of Jet Skis.

I live on a lake in Florida, I have noticed much less power boat traffic this year, so far. I see lots of power boats sitting in the yards with a "For Sale" sign on them. That doesn't mean those people will buy sailboats, they probably will buy golf clubs. Most power boat people that I have talked to think sailing is both "too hard and too slow."

Here's something to think about: As gas prices keep going up, there will be less "disposable income" available for recreation. What do you think that is going to do to sailing, or boating in general? New boat prices also have to go up as they are made of resin which is made from petroleum. That's not going to help boat sales.

Less than 5% of people go baoting at all, less than 10% of those sail, less than 10% of the sailors sail Cats, less than 10% of cat sailors actaully race cats. That's a pretty small demographic to work with in the first place, now add in higher cost of trailering your boat to water, and higer new boat prices...

Gas is not an issue for me, at least not yet! Since I'm only going to travel 3-5 hours one way, driving a Honda Element and averaging 50 mph at best, towing a 240 lb boat with the attendant gear, how much can that add to my trip? $20- 40$?

Finding a motel with suitable launching! That's a concern!

btw- Mark, what do you sail?

Pete,
Whats the Element get for gas mileage.

Bill

23-26. Never really checked, but that's about right.

Yes, I think this has been true especially for the last 3-5 years, however, the fleets are finally starting to settle out.

In Florida, I20, F18, F16, H16, A-Cat and Waves seem to be the classes that have survived and are growing.

Personally, I was always a fan of the SMOD, but it seems formula racing has come to the rescue of catsailing and is getting more boats on the starting line racing together.

The exceptions are the Hobie 16 which is a great option for SMOD and is also a great intro boat. The I20 is the distance and heavy crew boat king and seems to be doing fine. The waves also have a good group.

Seems to me that there is a good selection of fleets that should please just about everyone.

I'm fully with Brian on this one. I only see improvement of the cat scene.

More then a decade ago we had over 15 catamaran classes here. In the 18 foot double handed segment alone you had :

dart hawk
nacra 5.5
hobie 18
dart 18
Prindle 18
Prindle 18-2 (very different to the prindle 18 !)

None of them wanted to play with the others.

No there is only one 18 doublehanded catamaran that as good as everyone is sailing. Formula 18

In the 20 foot and other length segments to same has happened or is happening. It is just a matter of time when we only have :

Tornado / nacra-20 (I-20)
F18
F16 (Includes the ISAF youth boat SL16 and Spitfire)
A-cat
Hobie 16

In the way of waves/mystere 4.3/tyka 4.3/KL14.5 segment it is yet unsure which will come out on top.

So we went from over 15 classes to a much smaller and better spread out scene of only 5 to 6 classes.

I also believe that this new selection covers as good as any need/desires that a particular crew may have.


Wouter

I hope this isn't considered hijacking, but what would it take for the H16 to be F16 compliant??

It's funny that you insist on refering to the F16 as if it was an establised class. The truth is it has no buisness being on a list with those other classes untill it has some REAL numbers out there. Everyone tends to agree on all the other classes but then adds an exception for their own class if it's an "other" (F16 in your case). There in lies the problem with lists. Everyone wants to make an exception for their favorite "other" class.

On the West Coast we are getting the most interest in the Formula 18s and the A-Cats. That is for the sailors coming from other disciplines. There is still a very hearty group of Hobie 16s. We do not see very many of the other boats coming out to race. I-20s show up with only about 2 boats, unless we are sailing in San Diego, where we can see about 7 of them. A-Cats mostly sail out of Long Beach, nice fleet, good sailors, but hard to pry from Long Beach format. Formula 18s sail the most (14 regattas/per year) in the most locations (6-7 venues). That means that we are seen by a lot of new people all the time. This is what generates the interest, "We actually sail." Having a lot of the "same boat" (Formula 18) on the line is really impressive to the racing fleets that are struggling. It is hard to beat the numbers game.

Later,
Dan

I was trying to draw some logic from your statement, but there doesn't seem to be any.

Sometimes the name tells the whole story.

We must first agree that everything is in a state of change, something is either growing or it is dieing. The whole one design premise is based on a false assumption...that something can be static and survive.

The world is moving in fast forward, it thrives on new technology and invention…why then assume cat sailing is declining because of too much innovation? It seems the opposite is true…Catamaran sailing must keep re-inventing itself or it will be quickly left behind, dieing... as sports with more marketing savvy cannibalize the ranks.

It's all ABOUT the marketing...It has always BEEN about the marketing...and it will always BE about the Marketing.

Marketing is the battle field where numbers are won and lost.

Regards,
Bob

I have no idea if there is any truth to this story.

According to legend, Hobie Alter was happily building skate boards and surf boards when a marketing guy asked him to build a cat' so surfers would have something to do between waves.

The rest is history. If true it would make "The Hobie Way of Life" a remarkable marketing success story, and primarily a marketing story.

Done it to death!

Our F18 mass in our area has pretty much been maxed out from the current catamaran sailing ranks. There maybe one or two more to be added in the next couple of years. What IS working are where people have infiltrated local sailing clubs and talking up the class to sailors of other mono-hulls. There is a good bit of interest and we think think we could possibly add another three F18s to our region in the next year.

Size-wise, how does the F18 North American event stack up with other NA Sailing Championships in numbers? I bet it's already up there pretty high in the list.

The "legend" is that Hobie, Wayne Schaefer and Phil Edwards came of with the H-14 to have something to play with when the wind messed up the waves for surfing.

They were all surfing buddies. Phil did the shaping on the H-16 and H-18 (and by derivation, the H-17, since its hull is a cut down version of the H-18).

Oh really? Then what are we? a product of our imagination?
http://formula16.org/
http://www.catsailor.com/forums/postlist.php?Cat=&Board=Fleet45


What do you define as a real number? As far as I know even a 0 zero is a real number. A ten without the zero is a ONE!. Just because we do not have 15+ f16 on the starting line does not make us a "REAL numbers" class. As far as I have seen the only class that gets big numbers an starting lines are the H16 and F18.

So far you have been the only one to say, we are not a real class. I did not read a majority or post saying otherwise. Seems to ME you are the only one here stating this. So there is no majority and your statement has no basis.
Yeah and? everyone wants to beleive their boat is the best boat. There is nothing wrong with that. As long as we are having fun, its all good. But saying the F16 is NOT a class with "Real" numbers is old. The joke was funny back 2002

Over 150 boats and growing, presence in 5 continents (only missing south-america and antarctica). 2007 Alter Cup boat, this feb 2007 a World Challenge in Singapore with 30-40 boats projected as participation. We even have 4 boats in a far off place like Shanghai China, ahead of everybody else. We have 3 builders linked to class a 4th is in the works. We have a local builder in all continents. If we wanted we could ask and get ISAF recognised status, we satisfy the requirements. We have now had class races in all area's except China. Glenn Asby himself sponsored the NSW F16 challenge Cup (Australia).

For local US zealots; since jan 2005 the US F16 class has grown by 15 boats and that is excluding the future 11 Alter Cup boats. At the time these are build (before feb 2007) then US F16 class will at least have doubled herself to just over 50 boats in total. During that time new orders may have been added.

Growth in other places in the world shows a similar development. A quick sum already results in 31 boats added world wide since jan 2005. And I didn't included the Stealth F16 sales in the UK yet. There are now 40 stealths in the UK.

Now in all honesty; do you see any design, not initially listed, like FX-one, F17, Swell Shadow, nacra 500 or even the Spitfire do anything like this ?

Because I certainly don't.

Some of you may not like it. And yes you can take any single area and argue that growth is modest locally. But the thing to remember here is that the F16 class does this modest growth in 5 different places at the same time, all over the world. This while near all other designs not listed can't even get such a modest growth in one single spot.

Again, you may not like it, but the race has been run. We have achieved critical mass, F16 is here to stay



P.S. I didn't name the Dart 18 in my initial listing as I really believe that that class is dying beyond a hope of a change in fortunes.

And this hole topic was played out by ME back in March.

http://www.catsailor.com/forums/sho...ew=&sb=5&o=&fpart=1&vc=1

-1- get a spinnaker if you want to have any chance of being in the race.
-2- invoke grandfather clause.
-3- show up, be respectful to boat owners of other makes and race

I promise that I'll be nice to the Hobie 16 sailors

Wouter

Lets see it happen, unless this is all just talk.

Anybody hear anything? Flies buzzing? There's no one out there, must be the flies! With that odor so peculiar to anonymity, it must be the flies.

It could be the no-see-ums.

Sniff, sniff! No, that's something much more common than no-see-ums!! . What we really need is a leash law!

Seeker wrote;

"We must first agree that everything is in a state of change, something is either growing or it is dieing. The whole one design premise is based on a false assumption...that something can be static and survive.

The world is moving in fast forward, it thrives on new technology and invention…why then assume cat sailing is declining because of too much innovation? It seems the opposite is true…Catamaran sailing must keep re-inventing itself or it will be quickly left behind, dieing... as sports with more marketing savvy cannibalize the ranks.

It's all ABOUT the marketing...It has always BEEN about the marketing...and it will always BE about the Marketing.

Marketing is the battle field where numbers are won and lost.

Regards,
Bob"


Sorry but it is just WRONG to say that "one design sailing is based on a false assumption.....that something can be static and survive".

The first two one designs EVER in small-boat sailing are both sailing happily today, and they were both created in 1884. The first International small-boat class is one of the most popular singlehanders afloat, and it was designed in 1912. The first International yacht class is still popular and still Olympic. The second one design cat class (Shearwater) has been around for over 50 years, I think. What is the most popular cat class? Hobie 16 - pretty much the same boat for 35+ years.

So the plain and simple FACT, however much you may dislike it, is that one designs classes DO survive, and some of them have survived much, much longer than many development classes. Seen many Cs, 18 squares, or Ds lately?

Not all of the world IS moving forward. Look at surfing; the old-style '60s vintage longboards are more popular than "modern" boards. Look at windsurfing - it dumped OD classes, went "progressive", and is now about 8% as big as it was when there were lots of OD boards. Look at yacht sailing - biggest events for years have been classic boat races like the 276 strong Dragon regatta. Even in dinghies, the classes that are growing fastest are the older, slow ODs like Lasers, Radials and Optis.

The facts are plain, the facts are simple. In a fast, high-tech world, many people are turning to their sport for relief from instant obsolescence. In the sport of sailing generally, the numbers do not lie - the ODs are surviving, the ODs are thriving, the slow boats are often growing.

Even in cats, what is the major growth class (arguably)? F18 - not an OD, but a class that has specifically outlawed "moving forward" too fast.

WORD!

So, if we look at the classes you mention (I'm guessing one is the Star), we'll see that they are exactly as designed when they became a class? The Star has seen rig and sail plan updates through the years. They are no longer built with planking on frames. The Tornado has seen updates through the years. Just about every OD class that has had long legs to it has been able to update to keep somewhat current and relevant, either from a materials or design modification standpoint. Now that we've given some examples of long-timed OD classes, I'm sure we can come up with a larger number of one design classes that have also died over time. AMF Alcort brought out the Force Five as a one design alternative to the Laser. Don't think it's much of a class these days. Hard to find big Hobie-14 OD action in the states (one of the biggest shames I believe) - and, yes there are small pockets around, but not really a strong OD scene. Seen a Prindle 19 regatta lately? The Point is - being one design does not automatically guarantee success. And not updating a design from time to time means that at some point it becomes "quaint" and will become less attractive. Even Optis have developments that have been applied through the years.

I think a big killer in OD is the single manufacturer supply concept. You can't race if you don't buy your tramp from the original builder. Same with sails. What crap. Prices go up, quality goes down. I've crewed on Flying Scots - old OD class that would support your premise. But you can buy sails and other parts from a variety of manufacturers (just must measure in). And while I'm not up on complete Flying Scot history, I'm sure there have been rig updates voted in through the years.

In keelboats, by far the most participation in racing is NOT in OD. It is in the legions of people that bring out whatever they have and race PHRF on Wednesday and Friday nights, all across the nation.

But all that aside - to build cat sailing, either in the racing venues or as a past time, we need to bring fresh blood in. New sailors will revitalize old and new classes. Restore the critical mass.

This really isnt relevant to the discussion but last month I stopped by the local sail shop and they were assembling 3 brand new Prindle 19s. Apparently some guy has a fleet of them somewhere in the Bahamas and wanted some new ones.

So, there is a fleet a Prindle 19s, growing somewhere, and you can still buy them!

So, in the US, using the 5% of the 287M are boaters, and 10% are sailors, and 10% are racers, then what precentage are cat sailors or racers, of the 143,500 racers? We are a small precentage or group.

It seems the entry level is important to sustain, or perpetuate, or hopefully grow our numbers and recent development does nothing more than satisfy "our" needs as racers. Recent developments, i.e. new classes, have done nothing but feed the existing cat racing demographic. Are used 5.8 or H20's doing much for growing entry level sailor numbers?

I believe a boardless, sloop or cat rig is nessasary. Depending on where you are it's a Hobie, Prindle or NACRA, with the Hobie 16 as the only widespread, viable entrance to racing.

Where is Hans at with the G-cat development? A boat that can be modified from rental boat to full compliant F16? That's the only innovative idea/design I've seen lately. One with potential to grow numbers from the entry level.

In the mean time we'll keep plucking H16's out of barnyards and making one good boat out of two.

I am an unabashed H16 lover! I offer no apology. I think it is one of the best all round designs to date. And, IMO possibly the best looking.

If they weighed a little less and offered one-up racing, I'd probably still be sailing one. On second thought, if they offered one-up racing, I'd learn to live with the weight.

Good on ya' bud.

With you all the way Keith: "But you can buy sails and other parts from a variety of manufacturers (just must measure in)." And pay the royalty; many classes do it this way.

Would it help to join the class association? Is that a change that could happen with the N20 class?

Well Pete, I see more of them raced one-up than I do two-up, but I don't go to the Hobie-only regattas. It is not that I wouldn't go but I'm just not welcome unless I buy a Hobie to race, and I'm not going back to Hobie. Been there, done that. At open regattas in the Midwest, many of them are sailed one-up and they seem pretty fast that way. So you can have your dream boat, Pete. Go buy the H16 and single-hand it! Just race handicap.

Too late! I'm picking up my Blade on the 19th.

Still, it's that "first love" thing.

Who me...Mr.Anonymous
You totally missed the point, and I don't have the time nor the desire to try and explain it to you.

Regards,
Bob

Well, that's a well thought out, logical and factual rebuttal of my post Seeker .

Sorry I'm anonymous.....of course we all know exactly which of the 150,000`"Bobs" in sailing you are.


Keith, sure some (not all) of the classes I mentioned have been significantly updated. In others, the only change has been a shift to newer, cheaper materials. And sure, some OD classes have died. Of course I would never try to say OD guarantees success.

The attraction of strict manufacturer-supplied ODs is another matter (I know I can afford to race my manufacturer-supplied ODs for less than I can afford to race my development gear, and I just don't care if one is a couple of minutes quicker than the other).

I was NOT attacking development or Formula classes, merely pointing out the gaping flaws in Seeker's assertion. I think we need Formula and development classes as well as ODs, and manufacturer ODs.

I totally agree there's a need to bring in new sailors to restore critical mass.

All I'm saying is that ODs are NOT doomed, and they DO grow (which is indisputable looking at the figures of ODs like H16s).

But all that aside - to build cat sailing, either in the racing venues or as a past time, we need to bring fresh blood in. New sailors will revitalize old and new classes. Restore the critical mass.

Here's where we differ. Just because multiple manufacturers can supply an OD class does not make it a development class. I believe you can race cheaper with better gear if the classes were not strict one manufacturer. I also believe this would supply more business to local suppliers that could use our business.

Case in point - we just got our brand new tramp from our one design manufacturer. It has one less slot cut for lacing the back then there are pins on the crossbeam, meaning that one is not being used and the lacing is offset in areas. Checking other boats show that indeed, our tramp is a goof. We have a local sailmaker who does great work, and can supply sails at a better cost and quality that measure in. Plus, because he's local, he can look things over if there is a problem. He could also make the tramps. So, we could be cheaper, have better gear, and make the same speed. Again, all of this is not development stuff. But we must buy from the manufacturer...

We like to think of the cost of bringing in other suppliers as beginning an arms race. Maybe, but how much does it cost to get a crappy sail from the manufacturer, that you then race at a disadvantage, or have have to go through the hassle of explaining the need to return it to somebody on the other coast?

Just food for thought.

Dear Troll...I mean Mr Anonymous...I mean Mr. who-me

"All I'm saying is that ODs are NOT doomed, and they DO grow (which is indisputable looking at the figures of ODs like H16s)."

Is the Hobie 16 class in a current state of growth? Are you saying that there are more Hobie 16's in active use now than any time prior to 2006? (By active use I am excluding the thousands of Hobie 16's wasting away in back yards all across America that haven’t seen the water in at least a year). How many of the 35,000 Hobie 16’s you talk about were sold new in the US in 2005? And if there were less boats sold in 2005 than say…1985 or 1980 would that not mean that the numbers are declining not increasing? What is your definition of growth? Please enlighten me.

Regards,
Bob

The numbers prove that it is - at least marginally so.

In 2004, there were 1373 Hobie 16 race participants in HCA Events - before the "Hobie Only" edict went into place.

If you take out the events in Divisions 6, 8, 9 and 12 that "fell off the map" because of the edict, that number drops to 1302

In 2005, there were 1319 race participants - and that doesn't count the H-16's that race in non-sanctioned events (the southeast US and Texas mostly). Modest growth at best, but growth nontheless.

Of course, it's not like it was in the early '80's. Every class goes through its ups and downs.

Coming from a part of the country where there is no racing other than Hobie (and I do wish it was a more wide spread mixture without diluting the numbers...wish in one hand...). The H16 numbers are status quo at best. Most "existing" racers have already or are moving to the 20. I suppose there is the possibility of inticing a sailor from centerboard or keel ranks to a 20. THE entry level boat is the H16, and thanks to tens of thousands sold, still perpetuating our sport, but at much reduced levels. If not for this boat, I'd probably be powerboating.

Sorry for not adding anything you didn't already know, I just don't see another "stepping stone" or entry level boat being introduced since than the Wave. Will another manufacturer fill this void? And I'm "wishing" again...for a void.

What would this "dream" boat look like? And, what does a new H16 cost?

“The numbers prove that it is - at least marginally so.

In 2004, there were 1373 Hobie 16 race participants in HCA Events - before the "Hobie Only" edict went into place.

If you take out the events in Divisions 6, 8, 9 and 12 that "fell off the map" because of the edict, that number drops to 1302

In 2005, there were 1319 race participants - and that doesn't count the H-16's that race in non-sanctioned events (the southeast US and Texas mostly). Modest growth at best, but growth nonetheless.

Of course, it's not like it was in the early '80's. Every class goes through its ups and downs.”

>>Thank you mbound for the information…it gives us one piece of the puzzle. Glad to hear that things are on the up swing.

I tried to do a search on how many new Hobie 16’s were sold in 2005, but could find no hard numbers.

We all know that there are a ton of Hobie 16’s out there on the used market that can be bought for a song. It is a great avenue for new sailors to get into catamaran sailing. A cheap old Hobie 14 or 16 have probably brought more new people to cat sailing than any other thing…but this seems accomplish only so much. Obviously this takes things only so far.

Can you imagine if Ford, GM and Chrysler were still making the same exact model they did back in the 1970’s and 1980’s, how many cars do you think they would sell?
If computers stayed with the format of Commodore 64’s how far behind do you think computers would be? In almost every avenue of life things are moving forward at break neck speed. Why shouldn’t cat sailing do the same?

As for the money…People go out and plunk down $20K for two PWC all the time…why wouldn’t they do the same for a Cat if it was presented in as enticing light?
If you want to get more people involved in the sport then someone is going to have to go into the GENERAL PUBLIC and make cat sailing desirable again…Like Hobie Alter did in the beginning. Seems like a lot of time is spent “preaching to the choir” and then wondering why no new people are coming thru the doors.

Regards,
Bob

Absolute new ones (2006 models) are in the $9K range, although there are deals to be had on "new old stock", North American's boats from last year, etc.

There's a "nearly new" boat on eBay right now starting at $7,800.

Demo Boat in SC

"Absolute new ones (2006 models) are in the $9K range, although there are deals to be had on "new old stock", North American's boats from last year, etc."

mbound do you have any numbers of how many new H16's were sold in the US in 2005?

Regards,
Bob

Nope. HCC does not publish production numbers, nor divulge them publicly.

As I have said before, it all depends on the People and Volunteers. This weekend, there are about 20 H-16, and H-18's teams signed up for Hobie 101 at Sail Sand Point in Seattle. In addition a H-17 Clinic will be held by our local H-17 sailors. Sail Sand Point now has four donated H-16's and a H-14, that are being restored, and intergrated into their programs. A local Hobie Sailor is taking US SAILING Level 1 training to become a instructor in our Catamaran Classes. Last weekend, we had a Fast and Fun free sailing event in Kirkland with our five Waves. Our local Hobie Cat dealer, Hobie Cats Northwest, brought in the Hobie Cat kayaks traveling demo team, and together we got over 100 new people on the water. For more info go to www.sailsandpoint.org.
Caleb Tarleton, Sail Sand Point

Seeker, merely because I dispute your claim that ODs are doomed does not make me a troll.

You are pretty close to anonymous yourself, I can't see why you make such a fuss about it. It wouldn't change the facts.

Further up the thread you have been given info about H16s in the US. The class may not be spectacular but it backs up all I was ever disputing, which was your claim that ODs always die and cannot grow.

We're not selling cars here, so the concept of updating models every year doesn't apply in the same way. In fact the facts indicate quite clearly that the classes that update are not sure of survival, and the classes that don't update are generally more popular - look at any listing of the most popular classes and it's almost all ODs at the top.

Look at the classes that CAN get updated every year and you'll see D Class (dead) C Class (moribund, about 2 races each 4 years), B Class (long dead), A Class (about 40 new members in the main countries, but no overall growth in terms of existing boats and 30 fewer new boats in '06 than in '02), 18 square (dead), Formula 16 (small) Formula 18 (growing; up 7 boats at the UK nationals '98-'05, similar in other areas, very popular in other places), F20 (?), F18HT (?). That's not exactly indicating that development classes are immortal.

The first OD cat classes in England (Shearwater) and Australia (Yvonne) are both still alive - proof that ODs do NOT die as you claimed.

Kieth, bummer about your tramp. We had a similar problem with ours, in a class that HAS got multiple suppliers. We haven't really worried about it.....compared to the cost of updating to the new sails that competing sailmakers have brought out it's a minor problem.

I'm NOT having attacking ODs, or loose ODs, or development classes, they're all fantastic and all offer vital things to our sport. All I was doing is replying to a claim that ODs always die when they clearly do not, as is proven by the fact that the very first ones are still around.

Am I saying we have to stick with H16s and Shearwaters and other old boats? Of course not. It would be great to get more user-friendly entry-level boats in. A cat version of the Opti and 420 would also be a great idea, as far as I can see.

Hiyas,

I don't think the OD's are doomed at all. The whole concept is evolving though. Not many classes that have lasted the distance are *exactly* the same as origional. H16's have changed, H14's change, even the Yvonne that you mentioned have changed. The boat was designed in the mid 50's and stayed virtually the same till the rig was changed in the early 90's and more recently the origional spi has changed to a huge assemetric (sp?). They are good to sail - like sitting in a big comfy arm chair

Tiger Mike

The Shearwater class that is cited as an example of OD is in fact a RESTRICTED class. i.e. it is a development class. When I raced Shears back in the 1970s there were many quirky boats around with the only common factors between them and the 'factory' boats being hulls and dimensions including sail area. But you had and still have freedom of materials for beams, masts, sails. Freedom of systems. Freedom over extrusion sections, rudder shapes, centreplate design etc.

Looking at the 2006 boats, although they are undeniably Shearwaters, they actually couldn't be described as being the same as the boats that I knew from the 60s and 70s and a HUGE departure from the boat penned by Roland and Francis Prout. A One Design it most certainly is not.

Who_Me

“Seeker, merely because I dispute your claim that ODs are doomed does not make me a troll.”

>>>If you are so confident in your statements, why do you feel the need to hide your identity? You show up (5/09/06), never posting before (under this name at least) and make statements you are evidently not comfortable standing behind. What else am I to think?

>>>When the old open forum was operating there were many anonymous posters stirring the pot on a daily bases. We have been free of the vast majority of that kind of behavior on the new open forum. It is amazing how much more civilized people become when they have to identify themselves. To me, someone who is not man/woman enough to stand behind their words shows a lack on integrity.

“You are pretty close to anonymous yourself; I can't see why you make such a fuss about it. It wouldn't change the facts.”

>>>Lets see…My First and Last Name is listed, City/State/Country is listed, the fact that I have been a member on this forum since 04/04/02…and this post happens to be my 200th…I am not ashamed to link my name with my opinions.

>>>There are items of truths in the body of your posts I will not deny, but they are general in nature. Some of your statements kind of distort the facts…like the 60’s long board analogy…the long boards of today are so much more advanced in material and design that the only thing in common is the length...Compare a new Surf Tech Long board and a 60’s Clark foam and polyester board and tell me they are the same….same Weight? No, Same Rocker? No, Same Outline shape? No, Same Thickness Flow? NO, Same Fins? NO, same Materials?, No…please. In the windsurfing analogy…as you progress in windsurfing you need more wind to be able to push to the next level. While drifting around on an old 12’ one design board might have satisfied when you first start out, it hardly compares to advanced high speed maneuvers and aerials. In the US it is hard to find steady 20 mph+ conditions with any kind of consistency. After a while you get tired of standing on the beach all day waiting for the wind to come up. You move on to something else. It had little to do with OD racing as very, very few Windsurfers race.

>>>The facts are not kind when it comes to the popularity numbers of Cat sailing or sailing in general. In comparisons to other sports that the general population participates in, we are hardly a blip on the radar. Even within the more general heading or “boating” we show a very small presence.

>>>Sports have come into being, and eclipsed Cat Sailing because of better marketing of their product. How many TV commercials have you seen promoting PWC or Off Road 4 wheelers in comparison to how many TV commercials you have seen promoting Cat sailing? I don’t remember ever seeing a dedicated commercial promoting Cat sailing…let alone a 30 minute infomercial such as the one out promoting the Evinrude E-tech 2 stroke outboard. People get emotionally involved with things they see on TV and in full color, popular, main stream magazines.

>>>Cat sailing is in the background…not the leading edge. Until someone promotes it properly (meaning spending some serious advertising dollars) it is going to stay in the background.Check out some of the video that show up on this forum and the F-16 forum from time to time...it will get you so excited you can't wait to get back on the water again...that's what we need...but on main stream TV. Enjoy sailing on your own terms and try not to get too worked up over the numbers.


Regards,
Bob Hall

Wow, I managed to get into the Shearwater site (not easy) and I must say Jalani is right; the Shearwater describes itself as a restricted class. I'ts very unusual to have a boat with a set set of lines (with tolerances) and rig dimensions to describe itelf in that way, all the other restricted classes (MR, NS, MG, N12 etc) have no set hull shape but merely a box, and ODs like Mosquitoes, 505s, FDs, Tornadoes* etc that have similar freedom to the Shearwater are still One designs! All very strange.

However, the Shearwater may have been a bad example so we'll have to chuck in the Dart 18 - 30 years old, strict OD but still claiming the biggest fleet in the UK. Not dead! That's all I was ever saying (yeah the OD classes can evolve like the Yvonne - that doesn't mean they die!)

Bob, I fully agree that mass-media publicity is important for the sport to grow once more. I just don't see how that can't happen in a one design context - the Dart 18 nationals are being televised this year, the Volvo X40 cats are one design, the televised ProSail cats were one design, the televised 18 foot Skiff circuit went towards one design.

There is however a question mark how good it is for the sport to get lots of TV that shows it as being an extreme, scary expensive sport for experts, rather than a fun, simple, accessible sport for everyone. SUV marketing here concentrates on the fun/comfort/perceived safety/camping/family/exploration aspect, rather than on the revheads in the high-speed high-bounce Paris-Dakar racing specials.

I don't know about the situation where you live, but where I am (Australia) there was a cat boom in the '70s based around Hobie types, which weren't much quicker than older boats - but they were simple and tough and aimed at beginners, and they got TV publicity because of their surf antics. Cat sailing became massive. We had races of 310+ boats, and it was mainly Hobies and similar boats. Now that same race is mainly Tornadoes, F16s, As and F18s and we get 7-10 boats. That's not exactly a tribute to the pulling power of performance!

Windsurfing - I was there as a kid in the late '70s, was in the industry and at the world championships in the boom days (1 million boards sold '85) and I'm still in it. Did the OD, did the development class, did the slalom, did the loops in waves, did the freestyle - and I stand by the comments that development stuffed the sport up. Much of the move to high-wind gear was initiated by the industry in the same sort of marketing you want. Yes, it proves how powerful it can be - but it also proves that if you promote an impractical,unsustainable model of the sport, you won't succeed in the long run.

Re the F16 video - this catting year has been a Tornado/F16 year for me, so I know what F16s are like.

Bob, you are right when you say there has been development in longboards - my description of "old-style '60s vintage longboards" was meant for those people who may not know what a longboard/Mal is. Actually original vintage boards are prized and used in special comps here, but the main point was that when I started surfing longboards in '82, most people thought they were old fashioned and slow....now they are seen as a viable alternative despite a lack of "performance" - just like ODs!

Anyway, enough of me.....all I was trying to show is that ODs don't die and the North Haven Dinghy, Water Wag, Laser, 420, Dart 18, Hobie 16, Tornado (which was conceived, designed and built specifically as a one design within the B development Class rules), Yvonne are proof of that.

The bottom line is you cannot bring new people into the sport if it is perceived as "too hard and too expensive". We need more cheap training facilities with boats available at a low cost, just to get more people started, then once they get addicted to it, they can buy which cat suits their style. Right now, in the US, the only way to learn is do it yourself (often results in a destroyed boat) or spend big bucks to join a yacht club, to use their boats and get training there. I have been impressed by the RYA programs in England that take in anyone off the street, have the boats, instructors and even wetsuits and a shower room available, all for about $30 for an intro lesson. Why we don't have that in the States is a mystery...could it be Insurance Costs are too high?

Communitity Sailing Programs need to fill this need with Free Programs to introduce people to sailing, similar to Fast and Fun.
Caleb Tarleton, Sail Sand Point. www.sailsandpoint.org

In case you did not check it out, go to www.sailsandpoint.org, page down to Fast and Fun, and click on "This is a Free Event"

I think we must be careful not to blame development for the decline in catsailing in Aus or any other place.

The fact that two happening follow one another does not mean that there is a causal link between them.

A counterexample : The first Iraq war and the sanctions on Iraq have been very bad for catsailing world wide. Afterall ever since the invasion of Kuwait the international cat sailing scene has been in decline.



So what is truly my point who is not to say that the OD fleets of back then would have died out no matter what was done and that maybe the rise of development classes slowed done the decline, maybe even the reason why the cat scene is surviving.

AFterall the attracttiveness of OD (bad performance) has been whole unsuccesful to prevent these 300 boat fleets from totally being decimated within a single decade. Not really a testiment of the pulling power of the One-Design either, I say.

Wouter

A few things - if you have a one-design class that has no restrictions on manufacturers, then tolerances are needed for the hulls and other bits because the chance of one builder getting it exactly like another is nill. This sometimes allows for some playing around by the builders - they may find they can alter the hull shape a bit, still be in tolerance, and get a slightly faster hull. Also, in these cases, there may be specs as to how the foils attach to the hulls, but no reqruirement that the casting be exactly the same between builders. Does this mean it's not OD? No.

Again, there is a difference between one design and one design one manufacturer. In regular one design the class can decide what and what does not fit what they consider to be the design, can decide what the tolerances are, can decide whether it's time to update the design/rig to reflect modern times.

My point before about the long running OD classes having updated was not meant to say they were not OD or that they had invalidated the concept - rather it was meant to illustrate that these classes are still around as OD because they evolved from time to time keep things fresh. This is different from the OD as monolithic never to be changed ideal model.

There are classes that have not changed at all that are still around, sure. There are more classes that have died off, especially in the face of other more updated designs. I think in the one manufacturer one design classes the usual mode is to claim one design and then never ever meaningfully update. The claim is that this is done to keep costs down, but given that serious OD racers are constantly buying new sails and the like that seems odd. If every couple of years a change was made, I doubt the financial impact would kill people, and it just may help the class continue due to renewed enthusiasm. Just don't wait until the class is almost dead anyway to try it (P-19MX).

Also - the Prosail 40s were not one-design in the sense you say. At one point there was trimaran in the mix.

If I understand right, the Tornado was built as a B class boat first, and then became a defacto one-design. But its history underscores the keep the design fresh to keep the design alive idea. These changes may be minor (new downhaul systems on Lasers, extreme mast rake on the H-16) or major - adding square top, spin, and non-overlapping jib to the Tornado.

"Also - the Prosail 40s were not one-design in the sense you say. At one point there was trimaran in the mix."

He did not say "Prosail 40's"; he just said "Prosail," so I think he was referring to the Hobie 21's, which were part of the Prosail series.

Obviously, the 40's were not one-design, because that division included both catamarans and trimarans. The Hobie 21's were one-design.

Yeah, I assumed he meant the Prosail 40's because he had just mentioned the Volvo Extreme 40s. The Prosail 21s were certainly one design.

"Also - the Prosail 40s were not one-design in the sense you say. At one point there was trimaran in the mix."

After checking, I see that ProSail started with the Hobie 21s as Mary says, then built a "fleet of Formula 40s albiet a semi One-Design" very similar to Smyth's M&M that won the F40s in Europe in '86.(Seahorse mag Nov/Dec '88)

After the first event in '88, the lovely Gougeon tri Adrenalin joined in. According to Seahorse mag March/April '89, the series went OD after that, using ProSail 40s designed by M&M (the first three were built in '88, another for Smyth '89, and some of his earlier F40s were changed to "convert them back to the ProSail 40 specifications". The M&M website says that "the Morrelli F-40 became the Prosail one design choice in 1989 and 1990."

So it seems the series was (with one exception, Adrenalin, which was banned after 2 events, and perhaps the less successful Earthwatch?????) One Design.

Re Tornadoes; they certainly were designed to the B Class - the competition at Sheppey in '67 was for a One Design class within the limits of the B Class. All the serious competitors (Tornado 1 and II, Quest B, Manta B and Roton Pointer) were designed to the limits of the B Class.

I can't find all my sources (some are in the attic) but this info comes from the '68 book "Catamaran Racing", written by Reg White (who built the first 2 Tornadoes and skippered the one that won the trials) and Bob Fisher (his crew). I don't think the Tornadoes had done much B Class racing; they had only been built that year, Fisher says the Manta dominated B Class racing, and Tornado II (the wing mast una rig version) was so new it missed the first day's racing.

Going out on a tangent here..


The tornados dominated the Sheppey trials, so I expect they would have done well in any B-class race as well.


I have seen so many references to Adrenalin, but never pictures and a description of the boat. Do you have any links to more info about it?

Sorry Rolf, Googling gives very little info and only one tiny pic (on the Guegeon Brothers page). Wonderful boat, though.

From my recollection of the articles I've seen on the trials, and the Fisher/White book, the Tornado would certainly have blitzed a B Class race as you say.

"Wooden Boat" magazine did an extensive article on Adrenaline. You can probably order the article or back issue.

I kept that particular issue for years, but was not able to find it during a quick search through my stash this morning. I'll try again later.

Pete,
If you do manage to find it I would love a copy if you have a scanner. Attended a lecture by Mead Guegeon around 16yrs back where he gave us the run down on the boat. However memory aint perfect. It would be good to get a copy of the article for reference.

If Adrenaline and Earthwatch were the only two trimarans racing in Prosail, I have pictures of both of them. Rick took a lot of photos, on the water, when the series was in Miami. They're all great pictures, but the problem is that they are color slides.

If you can't find a picture elsewhere, let me know and I will try to find a place that can convert them into photographs. Maybe the company that prints my magazine can do it.

Mary,

anybody with a half decent scanner and a slides inset can convert slides. Most graphics shops and others who work with images/graphics can probably do this.



It would be very nice if you found that old article Pete. The boat is almot 'mythical', and there is so little information to be found about it.


Sorry for hijacking the thread..

Do you suppose you could get "Wooden Boat" to reprint the article online?

I had 5-10 years of WB mags. but I think they went in the garbage!

I did find this on the "Wooden Boat" site. Each back issue would run you $6.00 each:

Results of Search in WoodenBoat Magazine Index
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Below are the results of your Search in no particular order:


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/ADRENALIN (Formula 40 class):/comments, 117:102

/ADRENALIN (Formula 40 class):/comments, photos, 84:48

/ADRENALIN (Formula 40 class):/cover photo/Christian Fevrier, 87:0

/ADRENALIN (Formula 40 class):/design and construction, history, photos, plans, 87:66

/ADRENALIN (Formula 40 class):/update (1999), photo, 150:38

/Formula 40 class, ADRENALIN:/comments, 117:102

/Formula 40 class, ADRENALIN:/comments, photos, 84:48

/Formula 40 class, ADRENALIN:/cover photo/Christian Fevrier,* 87:0

/Formula 40 class, ADRENALIN:/design and construction, history, photos, plans, 87:66

/Formula 40 class, ADRENALIN:/update (1999), photo, 150:38

/Trimaran:/(See also ADRENALIN [Formula 40 class]; D-30 trimaran; DRAGONFLY 15; GULF STREAMER; IDENEK; JUNIPER; MOXIE; NISMIME [research vessel]; OCEAN SURFER; ROGUE WAVE; ROSE NOELLE [trimaram]; Searunner Trimaran [sloop]; Sea Clipper trimaran; SHADOWFAX; SIB 32; TELEGRAMME; THAT; TROPIC BIRD; VITI-VITI)




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Terms: adrenalin, formula, 40, class
Boolean Used: AND


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My bad, thought that was more of a formula than OD class. The footage I have must be more of the early days.