Nacra F17 - Single-Handed Heaven

Nacra F17

Single-Handed Heaven

The NACRA F17 in the result of NACRA's long tradition of very successful single-handed boats, beginning with 5.5 and 18 Sq. Meter way back in the middle 1970's. These were superior boats, far ahead of their time in ease of handling and upwind performance.

In the late 90's, it was obvious that there was room for even futher improvement in the single-handed catamaran concept, made possible by the Snuffer spinnaker handling system pioneered by NACRA on its larger boats. Extensive effort went into a platform that could handle the loads of the spinnaker, as well as optimizing upwind performance. The result was the Inter 17, a wonderful boat that would soon get better.

And get better it did, in dramatic fashion with the change to a carbon mast. This lighter and stiffer section allowed even better up- and down-wind performance by reducing weight aloft and increasing stability with the spinnaker flying. The newest version of the boat easily won Sailing World's Boat of the Year award in 2002, continuing the NACRA tradition of award-winning designs.

By 2005, the class was well established, but now in 2006, it is growing at its fastest rate ever, as more sailors discover the joy of both single-handed speed and the thrills of a spinnaker ride downwind. This is THE boat for sailors who are looking for more than just relaxation.

Get on the bandwagon and join us in Racine, Wisconsin at the Nationals in August 2006.

( Article by Jim Young)

F17 Great Lakes championship Caseville, Mi (http://nacraclass.com/northamerica/dist1/F17champ.htm)

F17 North America Championship, Racine, Wi (http://nacraclass.com/NCW2006/north_american.htm)

Single Handed Heaven?

Well, at best it has to share that title with an A-cat and the F-16.

If I did not make any major mistakes on a windward-leeward course and sailed my boat well, I could beat Bob Curry (who I believe is considered the best F-17 sailor to date) sailing his F-17R in light to medium air by 1-1.5 minutes elapsed. He still typically corrected out with that margin between us. Obviously I was faster upwind and he was faster downwind. The example here is the 2005 Alter Cup Area D Championship. It might have been somewhat different if in this regatta the race course had been set where we sailed the full length of the beat on Leg 1. With a potentially bigger lead for the A-cat, it would have been harder for Curry to close the gap to correct out. The RC set the course in this regatta with a split beat/run.

I'll settle for the overall performance of the A-cat because at the end of the day, I haul a 165 lb boat out of the water and have a lot less strings to rig and pull.

But if you have to have the chute, the I-17R could be your boat. If I was in that market, I'd like to see two evenly matched sailors race the I-17R against the F-16 singlehanded with chute. On paper, the F-16 sure looks better.

Bob Hodges
USACA
USA 230

Bob,



Cat Fight VII, being held in Racine, Wisconsin this year Aug 12 - 14, has fifteen F17s on the attending list and will start with the F16s, along with all the Low Portsmouth Spinnaker boats. If they show up, we will see the results.

http://www.catfightrace.com/

I am seriously awaiting the results of any good matched f16 vs f17 results. But who would the sailors be?

Hi Bob,
didja get ahold of Ederer?

I beg to differ. As far as I'm concerned, that title is shared also with the 18 Square. A well sailed Cat I comes to mind as far as competing with the newer designs... and upwind, even I on my Cat II stock NACRA can have moments of glory against same, I have the pic to prove it.

When them thar light boats are suffering overpowered in more than 15kt, my tuff ol' CatII Sq is waking up. Can you say, 'singlehand in 20kt+?' I bet y'all cain't ;-)

Bob, will we see you at Island Hop?
sea ya
tami

Oh, so this is now a F17 vs F16? I'll take a 30' CARBON mast anyday no matter the overall platform weight! Seriously for a moment, there's a singlehander out there for everyone. But PTP, currently the F16 driver (singlehanded) is no match for the F17 driver so there will not be a good boat for boat challenge for quite some time or until CatFight7.

My 2 sense,

Bob <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

What are the two P numbers difference? The F17 has the taller stick but I hear it weighs about 300? The F16 is about 230. What you need to do is take the top F16 driver vs. the top F17 driver, race, switch boats, race again...then see who's faster.

Bobke'

On paper if you consider the simple and stupid sail area to weight ratio comparison, the F-16 both in both double handed sloop and singlehanded uni configurations looks really good against a lot of boats (especially downwind) so that's why I'm interested in seeing the F-16 comparison to the I-17 with evenly matched sailors. A couple of years ago, I watched Jim Boyer race a spinnakerless Taipan 4.9 at Rehoboth. I was sailing with WF on the 18HT and we were amazed at how close the upwind performance of the Taipan was to the 18HT in 12-14 knots (keep in mind Jim did not have the weight of the spinnaker and snuffer on the boat).

I'm interested in the F-16 concept because I'm getting very involved in my yacht club's junior program as the 420 and Laser Radial coach. The kids just salivate over my A2 and I'll be "ruining" several of them in the near future taking them out for a sail. However, my A-class is not a double handed boat so I'm interested in the F-16 for the sole purpose to introduce these young sailors (I'm talking 12-18 year old teens) to state of the art high performance catamaran sailing. F-18 and I-20 are too heavy to handle and have too much sail area for these smaller sailors. The F-16 looks like a great recipe and the 230 lb overall weight is very attractive. Plus both the Taipan and the Blade are built extremely well.

The other thing I like about the F-16 is the bang for the buck. For around $15K, you can get a fully tricked out boat with trailer and covers and have the flexibility to race singlehanded and doublehanded.

But my favorite singlehander and boat is still the A-class. The quality of competition, simplicity, and ease of use factors are just too strong a draw and I credit the class for getting me really passionate again about cat sailing. And the boats are just so elegant on the water (clean and simple).

The Hobie Tiger, Nacra Infusion, and the I-17 are extremely
well designed and are good looking "sexy" boats but at this point I just could never see myself spending money on a 16' to 18' platform that weighs over 260 lbs. The A-cat and 18HT (and my lower back!) have skewed my preference too much towards the performance of the lighter platforms.

Bob Hodges

As has already been said, I think there's a singlehander for everyone, but I will say a few words on why I really like the F16. I like sailing with other people - there's nothing like having two people on the wire in a decent breeze - but finding two people who are equally committed to sailing is tough, and it always has been. I crewed on an F18 for the last few years. I really like the boats and the extremely competitive circuit. Sure, they're a bit heavy, but if you're heavy enough to make a decent crew, you've probably got the strength to drag it around. The problem is that we needed two people to sail it, and our jobs and other commitments meant increasingly that we couldn't make the time. It got to the point where we managed to sail only 3 times in 6 months.

I now sail a Blade, and we had a fantastic time at last week's F16 Nations Cup in the UK. What really made it a great weekend was that I was able to sail the first two days with my girlfriend, Ann, and then singlehand on the Monday when she couldn't get time off work. If we sailed an F18 then, apart from being underweight, we wouldn't have been able to sail the full weekend. If I'd been on a pure single hander, sailing would always be a non-inclusive activity. So, whilst I was interested to see how the F16s stacked up against the As at the Nations Cup, and will be keen to see out they go against the Nacras at Cat Fight, what really matters is that the F16 gets me on the water more often than I would otherwise. If you can use it to get some teens onto cats then great. I think it's the perfect boat for it, and as has been noted in another thread, most of the younger sailors seem to go straight into wobbly half-boats.

I've got a lot of time for the As. I love the simplicity and they're certainly very quick, but for me sailing with other people and hooning around with a spinnaker is an essential part of the fun.

Paul

Nop as the F17 doesn't exist.

It could be a Nacra 17 vs F16 thing but no more then that.






That is true. The best F16 sailors are in the UK, Australia and Asia and no nacra 17's worth mentioning there !

Hell, just last weekend we had a class race simultaniously in Florida USA and Wales UK. You were welcome to bring your boat to either event ! Missed you at the JPOR event last weekend, we had a class of F16's for you to race there !

So I guess it is indeed up the F16 class to grow towards that local club at lake michigan or else we'll never see a true head to head between these boats. Moreso as the US nacra 17 doesn't appear to be imported to Europe anyway. And it certainly won't be imported to other area's in the world.



For the remainder :"Them are pretty big words for a local 15 boat fleet at one US lake !" Lets hope that the nacra 17's can match up to their own claims for I certainly won't claim any of that for either the A's, 18's or the F16. For just last weekend we saw A's beating F16's (in the very light stuff) and F16's beating A's (in the other then light stuff). So we're still not favouring either boat over all conditions.





You ARE aware that the F16 alu mast is lighter than that 30' carbon mast ? Actually the Carbon section itself is already havier then the whole F16 alu mast ! Maybe, I shouldn't tell you how much lighter the F16 carbon mast is !

Ahhh, why not. F16 carbon (stealth F16) weights overall 13 kg and it may not get any lighter than that because of class rules. And therefor it is at least 4 kg lighter then yours.

I guess the nacra 17 carbon mast has the best of both worlds ! Heavier then alu and double the price.

Where are you now !

Give us a few years and we'll show up for a proper showdown ! A whole new generation of F16 sailors is being bred as we speak.

Wouter

Naturally we are all smack talking eachother most of the time. And that is good fun.

But on a more serious note I would say that there are a few classes I keep a really close eye on. Both in growth and engineering. A-cat class is definately one of these as is the F18 class. However one other particular class is not part of this listing on both accounts.

In all seriousness I say that I don't think much of the EU and Aussie nacra 17's. A decent skipper would be able to run them down no matter who is on them.

The US nacra 17 is a different topic. The rig here has been boosted enormously. It has 3 sq. mtr. (= over 30 sq. ft.) more mainsail area and a bigger spinnaker by 2 sq. mtr. (= over 20 sq.ft.). I actually expect this US nacra 17 to be rather fast in most conditions. If anything it will be a true race and not a shoe-in. So yes indeed put a comparable crew on both boats and see what happens !

At this point I also would like to underline that the F16 is not intended to be the best singlehander available. It always tried to be the best it could be while using relatively basic components and materials. Aluminium, glass, vinylester. That is why the new price is so attractive. I dare say that we have come a very long way like this. Just last weekend we saw 18.000 Euro A-cats racing 12.000 Euro F16's and it was too close to call an outright winner. And we had perfect A-cat weather most of the time (lightish winds).

Could the F16 be an A-cat killer ? Yes, but at the beginning we decided to take another route. We would try to get the best out of basic materials and basic components and try to stay under 15.000. This meant we had to let the "Ultimate F16 design go". But I think we succeeded marvelously at our other goal, better then I expected. And there is still some more growth potential. I don't think we have max out the Blade F16 design yet.

But I'll say one thing about the F16's in relation to youth sailors. The F16's are very much racing boats; you have to know how to trim and depower them, because even that small rig can develop a whole lot of power. It is the same size as the Hobie 16 in platform and sail area, but the F16 can feel a whole lot more powerful. But when the trim is decent then it is a lovely ride. Especially under spinnaker I just love the boat.

It seems to the be a very good boat for light to medium crews to hang with the best of the F18's. And these are crews that would really be too light for the F18 themselfs.

If I can help in any way with the youth program you have then let me know.

Anyway good luck to all.

Wouter

Bob,

If it is of any help, we have got a 5000 US$ Taipan 4.9/F16 on offer here in Florida.

It has got a new F16 jib and mainsail, so it doesn't have the jib blocks on the trampoline anymore giving this boat ample tramp space.

It comes with spare sails, I believe, as in the older Taipan 4.9 suit of sails. This boat was raced to a win by Michael Coffman in the round the Island race some 3 years ago, so it is a good boat.

This may just be the boat for these youngster as it doesn't involve a too high investment moneywise; while still giving them a pretty decent racing boat.

This boat has a add in the catsailor webpage classifieds.

Wouter

That's just not true. It's true that Nacra's F17 doesn't conform to any formula class. In fact, their webpage has "one design" in large letters across the top. But like it or not, the Nacra's 17 foot singlehander is called the Nacra F17.

Paul

Like I always say. I refuse to call the nacra 17 a F17 unless it get truly open class rules and allows 3rd party suppliers. Otherwise it is just a marketing gimmick and we'll end up with something akin to some guy calling some team "the F18 world champions" when they only won a 20 boat NACRA F18 world championship and NOT the true F18 world championship which was won by Bundock and Ashby. And this actually happened only a few weeks ago so this forum.

Additionally the Nacra Inter 20, which used to be a F20 but has gone one-design, is NOT called a Nacra F20 but rather the Nacra 20. So it is not like their hole product line is called F-something; remember the Nacra Infusion ?

And moreso I refuse to call basically the same boat by 10 different names. The change from I-17R to F17 was ONLY a larger spinnaker which can only be used by heavy skippers as the lighter skippers are still required to use the smaller (I-17R) spi. So basically it is still a Inter-17R, but since nacra has dropped the name "inter" with all their products I started using the name Nacra 17. Which is more in line with the naming convention of Nacra Infusion, Nacra F18 and Nacra 20 which they are using currently.

I can understand when people don't agree to this but that is the way I see it.

Wouter

The world really is a very small place when we are online chatting on the forum. Problem is for us sailors is that having 2 F16's in Europe, one in South Florida, and one in Birmingham doesn't do much if you want to get together and race. Then there are the A-boats which further split the fleet. I truly believe any unisailor would be happy sailing either the F16, NACRA 17/F17/I17R, or the A cat. At this point though, the battle between the F16 and F17 just further divides the fleet here in the US. Maybe 15 to 20 years from now one boat will emerge as the majority boat but for now I guess we better get used to handicap racing. ( unless you live near Michigan)

As for as the F16 being an A cat killer, I don't know. But in last years Alter Cup Qualifier here in area D (I believe that's our area here in Pensacola) the F17's pretty much destroyed the A-cats boat for boat!!

Tom Turlington
NACRA 17 #12

I've never been a fan of Nacras. They have been their own (and their customers) worst enemy over the years, regularly changing designs requiring existing owners to upgrade or buy the new thing. Their hype has always tended toward outrageous and their boats have been pretty ordinary in the main. Calling the 17 'Inter 17' was a lame attempt to make the boat appear to be an ISAF international class and now it's F17 to try to cash in on the formular trend which as Wouter points out, the inter17 definitely isn't.

We have some guy named Matt Struble in Michigan sailing an F17. I consider him the best in our class.

You are not paying much attention to world affairs are you now ?

Last weekend, simultaniously, we saw 12 F16's at Nations cup in UK and 5 F16's at the US JPOR Harken bouy race event.

Right now, this weekend, over in Australia we are having the "Victoria state F16 Challenge".

In two weeks Time, we're back in the US again for the Daytona summer sizzler, also part of the Harken Bouy race series. We are looking to make class there again as we did at Tradewinds and JPOR; thus making 3 in a row, something the other classes (F18, Nacra 20, A's, Nacra 17) except H16 couldn't do.

Then the weekend after that, back to the UK again for the East Coast Pierce race. Later followed by the second F16 UK race series event in Eastbourne.

Hell, I forgot the Singapore race calender, maybe there is something overthere in these weeks as well.



This is not a N17 vs F16 battle !

That would imply the other side is actually putting up a fight. We are cleaning up !

I sure do hope that at the next Florida Harken bouy race event (Daytona) the overwhelming numbers of participating A's and Nacra 17's make some room for those lonely F16 sailors that have already preregistered.

You are coming to that event right and bringing all your friends so you make class ?


Wouter

(P.S. otherwise come anyway and share a start with the F16's I'm sure they'll welcome you. The more more souls on the start-line the greater the fun. ) You'll have to race first in wins though.

Actually this whole "boat type 1" vs "boat type 2" is silly. Lets just share a startline and course and enjoy ourself while we better outself again all possible others.

Wouter

Wouter:

I agree, let just learn to sail better. Who cares what the other guys sails!! That is one of the reasons I now have three boats. PLUS I really wanted to learn spinnakers.

Doug and Ashleigh Snell
Hobie 17 #007 (Bond eat your heart out)
Sunfish
Soon to be Mystere 4.3 # 149
Want a Nacra A2

Sorry, I can't make the Florida race due to a cycling event. I thought I'd shoot for the Singapore race! Fits into my schedule better. Really convenient too!

Tom Turlington
F17 #12
Lower Alabama

There seems to be a recurring phenomenon. People who have been away for awhile are getting back into cat' sailing.

The local youth group is interested in establish mast up storage for cats, seemingly to retain the interest of their teen sailors. As a result, I will be changing my local club affiliation to this group and making the Blade and the Tiki available to them.

One of the guys interested is a former Division 8 H14 Champ and H16 competitor who now has a teenage son. I have offered the Blade to them at their convenience.

Their chief guru is interested in putting on Cat' regatta, but is most interested in January which would conflict with Tradewinds. I have strongly discouraged this date.

If anyone is interested, I'll be glad to keep you posted.

Pete I would be interested considering that Cape Coral iant too far from me. Albeit maybe this event can be a more than a day sail??

Keep me posted

It would be like any other regatta, two days.

The beach is less than 100 yards from U.S. 41 and there is a motel on the water well within walking distance, a motel across the street, also within walking distance and at least two restaurants within walking distance. So, this is a very convenient venue.

btw- it isn't in Cape Coral, it's in North Ft. Myers. http://local.live.com/default.aspx?v=2&a...p;scene=1926015 Type in "North Fort Myers Florida" you will see 3 bridges, zoom in on the single bridge and the North shore, click on "Bird's eye view" and that's the spot. (you should be seeing 4-lanes of U.S. 41, a beach and park that make a right angle with the North shore of the Caloosahatche River. The building is a motel.

Thom,

You started this. I remember at that regatta that I beat the I-17's boat for boat in at least 3 out of 5 races but could never correct out against Curry (I did beat you boat for boat and corrected in 4 out of 5 races). So maybe you can explain again how I was destroyed?

Bob Hodges

[/quote]

Thom,

You started this. I remember at that regatta that I beat the I-17's boat for boat in at least 3 out of 5 races but could never correct out against Curry (I did beat you boat for boat and corrected in 4 out of 5 races). So maybe you can explain again how I was destroyed?

Bob Hodges [/quote]

Bob,

I tried to find the old spreadsheet after I saw your post but was unsuccessful. As I remember it, I was able to win out over the other 3 to 5 A-cats for most of the regatta while beating you only on race one. Of course, my trying to drag "B" mark back to the starting line on race two didn't help my speed any.

I was thinking Curry won most of the races against you boat for boat. As you could see in my post, I was trying to keep this on a boat vs boat level by saying that the F17's destroyed the A boats in this regatta.

I believe I have made my point by saying that the two F17's were able to get more wins against the A-cats than the A's did against the F17.

But if your point is that you were able to beat me more than I beat you in the regatta, you are correct.


Tom Turlington

ps. I look forward to seeing you again at Island Hop...... (-:

And how do you like the spinnaker so far ?

Wouter

Tom,

In Race 1, the combination of overlaying and then nearly turning over at A mark let you and Curry get ahead to the point I could not catch back up to you.

I know for sure that I finished 1-1.5 minutes ahead of Bob in Races 3-5 but was frustrated that I could not correct out on him. I can't remember in Race 2 if I beat Bob boat for boat.

I think the comparison between Bob and I in that event represents how the A-cat will sail against the I-17 in W-L buoy races. I concluded that a well sailed A-cat will beat an I-17 boat for boat but will struggle to correct out. Of the other A-cats, I know Woody Cope was dealing with a sail that was not that competitive off the wind and Rush Bird was sailing a borrowed boat.

Bob raised the level of I-17 sailing up a notch when he started sailing in the class. I anticipate the Michigan I-17 fleet will do the same with their numbers and with Matt Struble in the fleet. That's a good thing for the I-17 class.

Bob

Bob,

I just wanted to point out that the above quote was in the same post as the remark you quoted me on. Now back to the " my boat is better than your boat" discussion .........

Yeah, I remember seeing a boat in the corner of my eye at " A " mark during race 1 that I thought was going to go over in a crowd of boats during the rounding. You did a fine job saving it!

As far as you being frustrated that you couldn't close up on the Unimaster, try racing him every week.

Also, thanks for pointing out all the problems with the other A Boat skippers. Did I mention I had a runny nose during the whole regatta?? <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

BTW, I found out this weekend that I didn't know how to sail a unirig in 2005. I've been sailing it like .........well, I haven't been sailing at all, just setting everything and steering like hell.

Now that you have noticed all the talented sailors coming into the F17 fleet, it may be time for you to pickup a used F17. There are 2 guys in Pensacola that could possibly be persuaded to sell. They just do not have the time to sail anymore it appears. I think you would really enjoy it.

In summary though, I believe my original statement was correct. The F17's had more boat for boat wins against the A boats than the other way around. I didn't say this to " put down " the A cats. I said it because I just get tired of seeing it over and over on the forum that the F17 is too heavy to be competitive. Actually, in many situations, I believe the extra weight may even be a plus......


Tom

The A cat is a more competitive fleet in the US and Worldwide. That is the most important thing to most (but not all) competitive sailors.

That's a great quote PPS, but the last time I even saw an A cat was in November 2005 in the regatta Bobster and I are discussing.

I guess I could get one and just feel that I was part of something much larger than I am but have no one to sail against unless I travelled to far away places each time. Or I could get an F17 and drive 10 mintues away to race other F17's.

Also, would you buy an A cat if you lived near the area where Catfight is held every year to be in a fleet that is more competitive worldwide if you already have a local fleet of F17's that is 15 to 20 boats strong?

I'm guessing some of the sailors in the F17 fleet could compete quite nicely with the A cat sailors be they local or half a continent away.

Tom

Tom, could you give us some examples?<img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />
Thanks

[/quote]

Actually, in many situations, I believe the extra weight may even be a plus......


Tom [/quote]

Tom,

To sum up, I think you will always see a "well sailed" A-Cat still probably finish slightly ahead of a "well sailed" I-17 boat for boat in buoy racing. But as long as the ratings remain what they are, that A-boat will probably have a tough time correcting out against the "well sailed" I-17 as we saw in November. Distance racing is a different scenario. If you guys have a long downwind leg, we're in trouble. Just be sure we don't have a long upwind leg to catch back up to you!

Regarding A-boats in the south and how we "dilute" the singlehanded racing. We currently have 8 active boats in LA and TX (which will grow to 10 in September), two in the Fort Walton area, 3 in Atlanta, and I believe 10-12 boats in central and south Florida. Mark Ederer in Ocean Springs is ready to buy a boat and I had gotten him in contact with a seller in Annapolis last week.

Besides our Midwinter Race Week this past January with 42 boats racing, we were the largest one design fleet at the Deep South Regatta in Lake Charles in April, the largest one design fleet at the Galveston Bay Catamaran Championship in May, and the largest one design fleet at the Wayward Winds Regatta (also on Galveston Bay) last October. Each of these local events had 7 A-cats racing. The Gulfport, FL A-Class/F-16 event had 9 A-boats racing. I have told my district chairmen for central and south Florida and the Gulf coast that we want to make it a priority to try to get more boats in the Panhandle. With the availibility of the excellent Bim XJ being built by Vectorworks in Titusville, we hope to see that happen. So if you, Chris Sawyer,and Bob MUR get tired of just racing each other, we'll be happy to welcome you all to our fleet.

Regards,

Bob Hodges
A2 USA 230

Bob,

You've got some minor A cat activity building in Atlanta, GA too - two F17 sailors sold their boats in lieu of A's earlier this year and have been hitting the local regatta circuit. They claim to be very pleased with their new rides.

Bob,

It's good to hear that Mark E. is going Uni. He is an excellent sailor and will make a good addition to the A Cat fleet.

As far as getting the core F17 sailors in my area to switch over, I think the traveling is still a problem even though the races you named are relatively close. It would still involve over night stays etc. Bob MUR has ranching duties that have to be taken care of on the weekends so he usually needs a day for that. Chris S. is supporting his son in his quest to become a stock car racer, and I have my 50-60 mile "fast" ride with the cycling club on Sundays. Then there is the financial aspect to consider, (of switching boats) and the fact that we wouldn't have a local dealer to support us. Also, as you know, we have some really fun distance races here which can be blast to do on the F17. The two Seabuoy races, RTI in FWB, and the two events at OSYC. By the way, that was an excellent pitchpole you had last year on the reach back from Horn Island!! I had a ring side seat since I was right behind you.

As far as which boat will win out when it comes to A cats vs F17's, you would have to consider many different variables. The biggest problem would be getting two skippers of equal ability. Then there would be the question of weather: wind strength, etc.

I was still a bit surprised how close the F17's were to the A's on the upwind legs though at the Alter Elim. 2005. Then, we had that reach to deal with. Throw out the reach and let us pop the spins that much earlier and the results may have been even more in favor of the 17's.

The more I think about it, the more I conclude that you cannot really compare these boats to each other. It’s all in what type boat you would rather sail. The A boat is easy to rig, and you only have the one sail to worry about. The F17 can be a monster to handle especially when the wind get up, and because of that, some of us "old" skippers are getting into better shape than we have been in years. So, it boils down to the following:

What are they racing in your area?

How much travelling are you willing to do?

How much rigging do you want to have to deal with?

Do you like to distance race?

Are you willing to work hard on the water all day on your day off?

Tom Turlington

NACRA F17 #12
Litespeed Vortex, Dura Ace, Mavic Ksyrium SL Wheelset

One of the things I really enjoy about the Acat is the simplicity of the rigging. I also own a HT and a have owned a Dart 16 and both are much harder to rig. The Dart was heavy to move around and the mast was (is) heavy. The HT is a pain to rig for a daily sail.

By contrast the A is simple to rig, so I tend to run down to the ramp after work and get in a quick sail, I wouldnt have done that with either of my previous boats.

At one point I left my HT at Sail Newport, which was 2 hours away just so I could leave it rigged and ready to go.

I'm pretty sure I'll get more sailing in with the Acat and thats a big plus for me.


Bill

One other factor that you need to consider is:

Does the "pick a fleet" travel to the events that you want to go to.... OR... are they content with their mast up storage and local racing scene and how does your life match this scene.

The Bristol RI A cat fleet has international level sailors and they race on Tuesday night's. By and large.. most of these guys don't travel for local or regional cat or big regatta type events. So they have a couple of A cat lovers who drive 2 hours each way for tuesday night racing. Not the typical weeknight racer!

Just down the coast is the Mid Atlantic Hobie 17 fleet. They don't have a mast up storage home... They race on weekends at the standard Hobie 2 day regattas and have had great turnouts year after year with 35 to 45 boats at their regionals (or nationals). So, if your life does not let you get away for the weeknight racing.... You have the weekend Hobie 17 option.

My point is that perhaps more important them what boat you choose to sail is what is the schedule of the fleet you join and how close to you it is.

Since racing is a social activity...you must have others of like mind in agreement to go race on X day and know that they make good on their commitment and show up.

While the debate is interesting "which rig is faster... " Light A cat verus heavy spin cat...

Most handicappers would tell you... .... eh... you have to seperate spin's from non spins..... that is the critical factor... Thje single handed or double handed split always seems to tilt to the single hander becuase the teamwork needed to make the two man boat go is not trivial....

I personally believe that when you have a good team racing a good singlehander the ratings work properly.

How about a light spin cat ? <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Besides who says that you have to rig the spi on a weekday evening sail ?

I do evening sails as well and I rig the spin when I feel like it and don't when I don't feel like it.

It is not like you HAVE to rig the spi.

Wouter

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While the debate is interesting "which rig is faster... " Light A cat verus heavy spin cat...

How about a light spin cat ?


Ah... I knew you would rise to the bait Wouter.

You are focusing on the qualities of the boats.... (I should not have used heavy in my desription of the N17.)

From what I have observed... sailors who factor racing class heavily into their boat choice equation are probably looking at the immediate racing scene in their region. They recognize that everyone has to buy into the same boat in order to get what they want out of their racing hours..

Sailors who are looking at the flexibility and fit of the boat to their kind of sailing are less concerned about a racing scene and so strenght of the racing class drops well down on the list of priorities.

For example We have four Taipan's on the bay within 20 miles but have gotten no more then two out at the same time and that is but once. (three live on the same beach) Is this a class?

To me.... the term racing class describes the people and their commitment to racing more then the boat. The Bristol A class does their thing on tuesday nights. the Mid Atlantic Div 11 Hobie 17 class does their thing on weekends. These racing classes are very clear on exactly what they do.
The Bristol fleet races A cats on Tuesday nights. Period!
The Div 11 H17 fleet races H17's on 6 weekends a year. Period!

This commitment is the most important factor in the term RACING CLASS. it's the people and their shared commitment... not their shared boats that is the essential ingredient of a succesful racing class.

So, Bob Hodges is very clear about what his Southern A class needs to do... Identify what the commitment is of the A class sailors outside the existing areas of strenght and support that commitment when that's possible. Perhaps some of those sailors don't care about the "racing A class"... just like my local Taipans dont care... That's fine ...... its just a tough call for Bob to make ... because everyone is brainwashed to say... "Oh Yes... racing class is very important to me... Yes I will support the program" ... when really.... its down on the list and they value other priorities when push comes to shove. (nothing wrong about this either... its the way it is)

I recently looked back on my notes from Stuart Walker's talk with respect to resentment in a class. Once you get people organized and on the same page with respect to their commitment... Then you have to manage Stuarts resentment notion. Else... things can quickly fall apart.

Here's an interesting comparision table I did primarily for my own curiosity:

F-16 240 300 201 389 0.37 0.72
A-Class 165 165 150 150 0.45 0.45
F-17 320 165 170 337 0.35 0.69
F-18 396 330 228 454 0.31 0.63
F-18HT 285 330 215 430 0.35 0.70
I-20 390 350 246 516 0.33 0.70
M-20 253 330 250 500 0.43 0.86
Tornado 350 330 258 527 0.38 0.78

For each boat listed, column 1 is boat weight, column 2 is average crew weight, column 3 is upwind sail area, column 4 is downwind sail area, column 5 is upwind sail area/combined weight, and column 6 is downwind sail area/combined weight. The ratios are essentially horsepower/weight ratios. While this ignores several factors such as hull shapes, foils, and waterline length I thought it could offer a general indicator of relative performance.

My own personal conclusions (backed up by actual racing) are that upwind the A-cat obviously looks best and I think in under 8-10 knots of wind, it always is. Once the bigger boats start to power up, the Tornado is faster and I would say the M-20 should be faster. The I-20 and the F-18 get closer but the A-cat still has a very noticeable speed edge.

Downwind, the F-16 ratio looks impressive against the bigger boats and that is why I am so interested in its performance. Matt McDonald feels the F-16 sailors are getting better and better and are now really challenging the F-18's boat for boat in combined fleet racing. The numbers above seem to suggest that could be the case and the performance and suitability of the boat to lighter crews hopefully will continue its own niche while not really affecting the F-18 class which is better suited to a bigger crew. The I-17 actually looks pretty good downwind also. It should have a bigger advantage downwind against the A-cat compared to the advantage the A-cat has against it upwind. It begs the question why does the A-cat give the I-17 time on handicap with this upwind/downwind performance comparison. How does the I-17 do boat for boat against an I-20 downwind? On paper it looks faster and I would think its also faster than an F-18.

Am I wrong in this evaluation, what am I missing in the conclusions above? Fun stuff to play with.

Bob Hodges

Interesting.....F16 uni numbers with my weight

F16 Uni 240 155 161 349 0.41 0.88

I20 and F17 comparison...Performance mid-winters we had a combined start. The I20 was hotter upwind and I remember getting clobered on the starts by Bob Curry but catching him 3/4 the way to A mark and passing fairly easy to leward...Bob wasn't breathing very hard at the time though. I'm sorry I don't have a downwind comparison but I don't recall Bob catching us once we got past him. During the light stuff, I remember about the same difference...but again don't recall any direct in downwind difference.

Bob,

You should add the F16 1-up specs :

F-16 (1-up) 240 165 161 350 0.40 0.86



Additionally, here some direct comparisons between A's and F16's at the nations cup 2 weeks ago.

http://www.mumblesyachtclub.co.uk./results/2006/200606_f16a.htm

Winds tended to be light at the event starting at 6 to 7 knots and peaking out at 12-13 knots later.

I wasn't there myself but the reports have it that fortunes were reversed when the winds picked up.

So A's winning in the lighter stuff, F16's winning in the medium stuff.

However, to me it also appears the courses were short. For example in the last race the first finisher got in after 43:10 and after completing 5 laps. Such short courses do impact significantly on spi boats and favour boats like the A's. Your spi skills must be excellent if you want to make large gains on such downwind legs (less then 4 minutes longs).

But this is interesting data nevertheless, there is more but I nede to dig that up and I don't feel like doing that now.


Personally I think some more performance can and will be pushed out of the F16's. The Blade crews are still tuning their boats (they were only delivered 5 weeks ago). Also in the past the skill level between the two classes was rather significant with the A sailors just being better, but like Matt says we are closing the gap there. The boats really do look to be a close match around the course and that is good enough for me. As stated earlier we never looked to become the fastest kid on the block, just becoming the most practical one is good enough for us.

Gary Maskiel in Australia is running with the A's. My personal experiences are along the lines "below 6 knots A's win, between 6 and 11 it dependents, 12 and up F16 have slight advantage". But I must say that the last time I raced an skilled A-cat sailor directly was back in spring 2005. Since then I've seen more but the skill level was just to big and I finished many minutes ahead.

Here a video file showing the conditions of the weekend. It also shows some close singlehanded spinnaker dual between two F16's all the way to the finish.

The file is about 100 mb in size (it is a rough cut with camera man commentary !); Sorry we've haven't had any time to edit the files to a more manageable size.

http://www.xs4all.nl/~whijink/Formula16_Nations_cup_UK_2006_Finish_race_12.avi

Wouter

Mark,

cat sailors will say alot of things and then don't live up to them anyway.

I focus on racing in every shape or form and that fully includes handicap racing. If never shared the One-design fetishm of the USA sailors.

In this respect I'm on the right boat as my racing scene is dominated by F18's that I can't compete on singlehanded. Even the A-cats are only a minor class overhere and more often then not get hammered by spinnaker boats as we also tend to run longer courses overhere then in the US. 45 minutes and only 2 laps is standard. This makes for sufficiently long spi legs.

So I don't buy into the zero sum game in any way or form. I'll race any nacra 17, A-cat, FX-one, F16 and F18 that cares to share a startline with the other boats. First in wins ! A long time ago I dropped the believe that anything but the nut behind the tiller makes a significant impact on the end result.

I believe the differences in speed between A's, nacra 17's, F16's and what not are relatively small and therefor easily overcome by very small differences in sailor skills. So I give alot more attention to other points of a design. Like practicality, feel of sailing etc.

Wouter