re: multihull class

Jill Nickerson asked me to post this on her behalf:



> I can only ship this out to so many people....I hope people spread

> the

> word on this like wild fire.

>

> Thanks for the update.....while opinion will vary I fear that the

> HOBIE

> class is about to make the fatal shot in the foot instead of the

> arm. I

> have been a member of the Hobie Class for years and the charter was

> suppose to be for the sailors but instead has turned out for one

> manufacturer. It has been very sad to watch the class disintegrate

> before my eyes over the years with the amount of racers getting

> fewer and

> fewer and the number of fleets willing to hold a regatta giving up

> due to

> the lack of attendance.

>

> We had finally started to see the Cat racing START to turn an

> optimistic

> corner by uniting cat sailors and having events that attract

> everyone.

> Eventually with this program you would have started to see more

> regattas

> out there but now things are doomed. A typical instance is to see

> how

> many hobies showed up at the steeple chase race....1 .....a Hobie

> 21.....in a field of almost 40 boats.

>

> Cat sailing should be a contest between sailors and not between

> manufacturers.....if the manufacture makes a hot boat, people will

> buy it

> and sail it......who has the hottest will vary from year to year but

> by

> closing a class to one manufacturer.....the class is no longer for

> the

> sailors.

>

> We had a forum of almost 100 sailors at the Steeple Chase race in

> Florida

> and they UNANIMOUSLY voted to try and resurrect the National

> Multihull

> Sailing Association that has been in effect for years but dormant as

> a

> class to accommodate ALL cats and promote RACING not any one

> manufacturer.

>

> There was a lot of excitement with this idea and it would be run to

> accommodate all of its members and not segregate and make a crude

> attempt

> to accommodate an X class. Those classes that have enough to have

> start

> would have one.

>

> If we can start a board of officers....I know my membership check

> will be

> one of the first in.

>

> We have asked Nigel Pitt to head it up because he did a wonderful

> job

> building the Hobie with members that are basically no longer

> welcome. He

> has done some wonderful things to promote CAT sailing and is our

> great

> hope of the future to build a cat class!

>

> I HOPE THAT YOU PASS THIS MESSAGE ON TO EVERYONE YOU KNOW and

> encourage

> Nigel to fire this baby up!

>

> Jill Nickerson

>

>

>

> attentRastahobie@aol.com

> > To: MIMIAPPEL@aol.com ; grussl@hotmail.com ; Miracle429@aol.com ;

> > nigel@twinhulls.com ; pulibarri@compuserve.com ;

> > stevenjung@hotmail.com ; rmcveigh@starpower.net ; kat@frii.com ;

> > shirley@azstarnet.com ; Rogerbr@aol.com ; John.Bauldry@onstar.com

> > Cc: chriskoper@hotmail.com ; gvaleske@gte.net ; ejlundin@home.com

> ;

> > fwhite1@cfl.rr.com ; cmvabva@yahoo.com ; hobie335@dpnet.net ;

> > davebarbara448@msn.com ; hobiemex@hotmail.com ; railray@flash.net

> ;

> > mrohrer@asf.com ; Hobierog@aol.com ; AndyHum@aol.com

>

> On Tue, 11 Dec 2001 20:18:15 -0500 (EST) "\\e"

> writes:

> > Hi Jill

> > Don't know if you saw this final report

> >

> >

> > ----- Original Message -----

> > From: Rastahobie@aol.com

> > To: MIMIAPPEL@aol.com ; grussl@hotmail.com ; Miracle429@aol.com ;

> > nigel@twinhulls.com ; pulibarri@compuserve.com ;

> > stevenjung@hotmail.com ; rmcveigh@starpower.net ; kat@frii.com ;

> > shirley@azstarnet.com ; Rogerbr@aol.com ; John.Bauldry@onstar.com

> > Cc: chriskoper@hotmail.com ; gvaleske@gte.net ; ejlundin@home.com

> ;

> > fwhite1@cfl.rr.com ; cmvabva@yahoo.com ; hobie335@dpnet.net ;

> > davebarbara448@msn.com ; hobiemex@hotmail.com ; railray@flash.net

> ;

> > mrohrer@asf.com ; Hobierog@aol.com ; AndyHum@aol.com

> > Sent: Saturday, December 08, 2001 2:12 PM

> > Subject: X-class final report (we are done)

> >

> >

> > The task force e-mail discussion had very good

> participation.

> > We

> > heard from many of the division representatives and others from

> the

> > Hobie

> > community. As could be expected views varied greatly, from those

> > that

> > want to leave everything up to the fleets to those that want to

> try

> > to

> > make things Hobie only again. However, the majority of people had

>

> > some

> > common views. They wanted to allow x-class participants in most

> > events

> > and they wanted to promote Hobie Cat one-design racing. Although

> > there

> > was a lot of discussion about the x-class when asked to vote on 2

> > specific

> > options the response was not as good. The vote was deadlocked

> > between all

> > three original options. But if we look at all the e-mails I think

>

> > that

> > option 2 should be the proposal.

> >

> > "The x-class should be only one start for all non-Hobie

> > boats.

> > This start can be fit into the start sequence at a place which

> best

> > promotes good sailing for all the classes. This includes the

> > beginning

> > Hobie 16 sailors (b and c fleet) so they do not get stuck with

> > one-lap

> > races while x-class boats are doing three and four lap races. The

>

> > x-class

> > must provide a scorer to figure out handicaps and do the handicap

> > scoring;

> > this may include some one to take times at the finish. But all

> > area

> > championships should be Hobie only events. The NAHCA should

> search

> > out

> > and work with fleets willing to host these area championships."

> >

> > Like I mentioned previously, these are guidelines which we

> > want

> > fleets and divisions to follow. They are not rules or laws,

> > therefore

> > setting slightly higher goals does not hurt us. Also, people

> > generally

> > will not go above the guidelines set out for them, so setting the

> > bar a

> > little high can help some fleets do more than they may have

> > otherwise.

> > As with how x-class boats fit into regattas, what to charge

>

> > them to

> > sail with us had varying responses. Due to the time constraints

> we

> > do not

> > have any guidelines for fees or membership. Although, many people

>

> > feel

> > that everyone should be paying equally, there are those that

> believe

> > that

> > we should not force non-Hobie owners to join the class. This

> topic

> > needs

> > to be looked into more by a separate group or the same group at

> > another

> > time.

> > Hopefully, all the fleets and divisions will follow the

> > guidelines,

> > but it would be naive to expect that. To make a more Hobie

> > one-design

> > oriented regatta schedule in the future, NAHCA has to work at the

> > grass

> > roots level to create that view among the average sailors. NAHCA

> > should

> > promote Hobie racing with out alienating other classes. Promoting

> > Hobie-racing should be NAHCA’s focus and how x-class relates to

> > that

> > promotion will need to be revisited periodically.

> >

> >

> >

> >

Just a couple thoughts here...



I think a National multihull association is the perfect solution. There is no reason for one class to give up their identity and purpose just to respond to the needs of other dying classes. I am confident that both can flourish. Both can enhance the other over time.



The fact that only one Hobie Cat showed up at the Steeple Chase is not indicative of a lack of interest by Hobie sailors. It is a lack of interest in that kind of sailing. This speaks well for the one design class concept... not against it. The Steeple Chase does not promote entries to the, other than, open class minded sailors. Proof of this is in an article written after the event, on this site:



>"Due to the possible perils of this race, new sailors can be a problem and usually not allowed to register. After racing had begun it was discovered that a Prindle 16 had registered and this was the first race for the sailors -- not good!



Here they are finally finishing -- hours after the ceremonies were over. But the sailors all went down to the dock and whooped and hollered as the finished. By the way, note the bows in the air. They were not doing a roll-tack -- this was the way they were sailing the boat. Is there a seminar in their future?"<



How does that attitude promote multihull sailing? That only turns more sailors away from the sport! I think that event represents the attitude of the multihull class racer. Those that fare well buy bigger, faster and more expensive boats, sails and equipment just to try and stay competitive. There are needs for several kinds of racing. Those who want extreme and others that want the fun, equality and camaraderie of one-design sailing that promotes new and old sailors alike... not discourages them. NAHCA best represents these sailors. This has been proven out over the years to be the most successful system and class. The decline in interest in Hobie Sailing may be, but the decline in interest in other classes has been deadly to them. Hobie and NAHCA have survived due to its format and depth. To suggest that NAHCA would best suit all sailors by being a multihull class just doesn't fit.



Multihull class minded sailors should find a place for themselves... Go National Multihull Sailing Association!

The NAHCA is just that, it represents one-design racing, with an almost simplistic view. Anyone can buy a used hobie an race it. No need to buy the latest and greatest sails and rigging. Just hop on and have fun. That is what's kept the Hobie scene alive over the years and it will continue to do so. (I should not forget to mention it's the people too)

I think the NAHCA and an umbrella catamaran association can coincide. Afterall, they just have two different views, right? What's so bad about that? I don't see the need to bash an organazation that has been succesful over the years, not to mention, also puts on events both on a National level and a local level every year.

Well Said,



To blame the decline in sailing on NAHCA is pretty narrow minded. NAHCA is the only multihull class organization that has remained even remotely successful even with the decline in sailings popularity.



The people who sail Hobies dont do it because they have some deep seated lust for the Hobie Company, or are under the misguided impression that Hobie is the only company who can build good boats, they sail them because they enjoy 1 design sailing. NAHCA is the only National organization that promotes 1 design. Why should they change their formula, which has been succesful, to incorporate ideas that have failed for a variety of reasons with organizations of the past.



Without Hobie, there is no one dedicated to promoting 1 design sailing, and despite the banter on this web sight, there are a lot of racers who prefer that type of racing.



Sail Fast



Matt

The problem here is NAHCA and its volunteers run the racing circuit in most parts of the country. Contrast this with dingy's where independent Yacht Clubs host regattas for a great number of unrelated classes. The yacht clubs do not organize and exclude E scows from attending regattas or tell the Escows... you need to create your own racing circuit. NAHCA policy determines MOST of the Buoy racing circuit in the country. They are more then an association of one design classes...By controlling the racing circuit. They can choose to operate as a monopoly. NAHCA is the 1000 lb gorrilla here and basically will do what it wants. Why are they choosing to exclude other one design cat classes. Why are they saying... Go develop a second buoy's racing circuit.



NAHCA claims to be about one design racing. I would bet that there would be a unanamous consensus supporting NAHCA for this principled stand. Hosting other one design cat classes (A class, Tornado class, Inter 20 class, Nacra 6.0 and Nacara 5.5 Uni and Inter 17 classes, formula 16, 18 and 20) would be consistent with this philosophy.



The open class (portsmouth) recognizes that many boats, (Hobie 21's, Hobie 18SX's Hobie 17 sports plus many others) do not have enough participation to race as a class and that having a portsmouth class for them to compete in and being inclusive is a good thing.



Secondly, when currently active one design classes don't generate a decent turnout, the portsmouth system allows the racers at the regatta to continue to compete... Much better then turning around and going home because there was no one to race against.



Matt wrote"NAHCA is the only National organization that promotes 1 design. Why should they change their formula, which has been succesful, to incorporate ideas that have failed for a variety of reasons with organizations of the past."



Well they are certainly not the only organization that promotes one design racing (see the active one design classes above). Promotion of the Classes (note the plural) and Running the events are two seperate functions and I believe that this is the issue.

BTW What failed policy of past organizations are you refering to. Almost all of the inactive classes were oriented to one desgin and simply lost market share.



It seems to me that the NAHCA strategy of Hobiecentric was articulated by Jeff Alter in a letter to the Division chairmen. Paraphrasing, Hobie should focus on the Hobie 16 and the Hobie Tiger because they are viable international classes. NAHCA should discourage all other non Hobies by putting them in X class and not scoring them on handicap Most importatntly Hobie sailors should explain to them the virtues of racing one of these two Hobie boats. His vision is that by implementing this policy, NAHCA will maintain large competive one design fleets.



He is saying that NAHCA should use its monopoly position running buoy's racing to minimize non hobie participation while simultaneouly trying to persuade existing Hobie sailors (18 and 20 racers) to convert to one of the two favored classes.



I and many others don't feel that this is a strategy for success now.



Mark Schneider

Part of the problem (no just for cat racing) is that there are too many classes.

This, I think, is part of what NAHCA is trying to fix.

There are a plethora of dinghy classes that are all well supported. Why can't that be the same for the cat-world? We just seem to have the view that we'll move around the existing groups of sailors until one pot is the biggest. It seems to me we need to add enough numbers to the ranks overall - get new sailors added to the mix. Dinghy converts! Young 'uns! Trying to convert 18, 20, 6.0, A-Class sailors to one or two classes is only good for those one or two classes - it does not add to cat-sailing overall. Even as a marketing strategy for a company it's short-sited - you'll only sell as many boats as the current number of sailors will support. You might get a burst up front but it will slow down again unless new blood is being brought in from outside the current cat-sailing world. Grow the sport, not just one class.

Mark, I just want to complement you on such a well reasoned and expressed point of view. It really helps to understand the issue. Thanks.



Mike Fahle

Here in OHIO we are fortunate that Jamie Diamond started OCRA (Ohio Catamaran Racing Association) six years ago when it became apparent to him that one deign racing needed an assist in this area to include ALL the various one designs without regard or favoritism to ANY ONE manufacturer class or classes. He almost single handedly got OCRA started and nurtured it to be very succesful and has been able to turn it over to others to run lately although he stays very involved. This discussion makes me appreciate his efforts more than ever and also makes me aware that this type of effort is what is needed in other parts of the country. OCRA coordinates regatta schedules and provides communication (nice website and newsletter) to members and sometimes scoring assistance to regatta organizers. It provides three classes based on Portsmouth number ranges and season class champion awards and a season overall champion award. It allows regatta organizers to break-out other award classes as desired by manufacturer, sex, age, etc. This has allowed cat racing to continue in OHIO even though many Hobie fleets have disappeared; in fact even while Division Ten has disappeared. Our sister organization in Michigan (CRAM) has done much the same thing for cat racing in that state (think Catfight for example). They have different methods but the basic idea is the same. There are other similar organizations around the country and it can be done where no such organization exists now. Just think about what you want, contact existing organizations for ideas, get a friend or two together and get one started for your state or area. Good luck and good racing for all cats!



Mike Fahle

Mark hit the problem right on the head. The NAHCA runs the catamaran racing circuit in most of the regions in the US and Canada. The point that Mark fails to see is that this circuit was intended to be a Hobie racing circuit and not a multihull circuit or the only multihull circuit. It is different from the yacht club scene, because most yacht clubs are not made up of one fleet, rather individuals that may or may not belong to a one-design class. The yacht clubs then run races accordingly. Some may be open to everyone, but there are many that are not. Some examples are Sailing World NOOD’s, the MORC circuit, The Olympic class regattas, The Big Boat series, and there are numerous Laser and Sunfish only regattas.



Mark thinks that the NAHCA should provide all the venues for everybody regardless of the consequences to it’s own classes. I think that everyone would agree that they would like everyone else to sail the same boat that they do. Under this premise, and under the premise that the NAHCA has the largest classes, if the NAHCA provided one design racing for all classes equally it would be hurting itself and its classes. All the other sailors would be trying to persuade Hobie sailors to their class (as well as the other classes). These other sailors have already proven they do not want to sail a Hobie because the only way they would come to a Hobie event is if they could bring the boat they have, not buy a Hobie, therefore, It is more likely that Hobie sailors would switch to these other classes than the other way around.

Why is it such an evil thought and policy for the NAHCA to try to protect its classes? Why should they not want to make it beneficial to join one of their classes as opposed to a competing class? Why is it the NAHCA’s responsibility to look after multihull sailing at it’s own expense? No one on this forum or the old forum ever asks this of any other catamaran class or class association. The NAHCA is trying to include everyone and still maintain its strength and stature as the premier catamaran class.



A separate organization whether it is NAMSA or the Multihull council to unite all catamaran sailors and classes is a good thing, and is needed. The NAHCA is not the organization for that, and it should not be slandered for having policies that do not fully promote unification.



Rob Jerry

Tiger 527

H16 102686

Mark,

I am taking a quote from your post: "The problem here is NAHCA and its volunteers run the racing circuit in most parts of the country."

How is that a problem? If the NAHCA and it's volunteer's didn't run races, then a vast majority of cat sailors, whether they be Hobie sailors, Inter sailors, Prindles, NACRA's etc., *would* have a problem - No races to go to.



But something else that I think has not been addressed, is that the NAHCA has basically set "guidelines" for the fleets. (as far as this "X-class" thing goes) They are not forcing any fleet to change their ways. They recognize that most fleets need to have an open class at their events to help with the costs asscoiated with putting an event on. That to me suggests that the NAHCA really does care about their members.

I couldn't agree with you more Rob. Hobie racing is exactly that....HOBIE racing. They hold no responsibility to other classes. I think it would be wise to add other classes as an X class and they can score themselves (taking the burden off the volunteers). If you want to race one design, then buy a Hobie. This is the reason many people buy Hobies (including myself). I am not interested in racing using a handicap system, thus I bought a Hobie. NAHCA has a great thing going and there is no reason to change it. If there was another multihull organization that wanted to hold races, then by all means....go for it and I may very well attend. However, I will attend a Hobie race first and foremost. One design racing truly is sailor against sailor....NOT wallet against wallet. I was involved in windsurfing racing in the 80s and it eventually became a race of who had the most money to buy the latest gear. That isn't racing!



"Why is it the NAHCA’s responsibility to look after multihull sailing at it’s own expense? "...............exactly....it isn't!



Kip

H16

bravo. hobie cat association.

you do not hear the monohullers bitching about the j 24 association.

As an active member of NAHCA and US Sailing, I welcome NAMSA, and look forward to becoming a member of this Organization. In my past 30 years of racing Hobie Cats, I prefer the one class format, but also enjoy the long distance races, and races with other classes. I favor any group that will expand and grow our sport.

For you that decry the decline in sailing popularity, I would ask you the following questions, do you:

1. Support your local fleet and assist in planning and running local races?

2. Take part in your Division Fleet activities?

3. Belong to the National Fleet Organization and US Sailing?

4. Assist at local boat shows?

5. Support local sailing clubs, schools, classes, and training programs?

6. Work with Park Departments and local Government to expand sailing facilities, ramps, and storage facilities?

7. Support your local Cat Dealer, by buying boats and parts from him, so he can stay in business?



Don't ask what your Sailing Association can do for you, but what you can do for Sailing.



Caleb Tarleton, Hobie Cat Fleet 95, Division 4, H-17 # 6185

One design means several options:

1. As a new Mystere 4.3 owner the manufacturer gave me an option to increase my sailing participation thru racing.. Sail 5 regatta's and get a new jib....Sail 7 and get a new spinnaker..That was all I needed to hear and off I went in search of regatta's.. My new spinnaker is waiting to be picked up..I hear it's pink? way kool... Now because of that offer being made to a fleet of 30 new boat owners an instant fleet was born. OCRA & CRAM gave us the avenues to sail either one design or handicap racing formats. Who cares we were sailing..isn't that the point

2. Thanks to Hobie Cat for providing rental boats again this year and Rick & Mary for continuing a format to race one design at the 4th Wave Nationals in Key Largo. I have been to all four and will continue to support this project because the friends, sailing, location and format are a blast.. With excellent race committee (Drove from Ohio, Doug Young and Carol Fahle) they ran 18 races in 3 days for 36 racers... How can you blast success.. I bet if you asked all those racers what boats they sailed on all summer you'd probably have every cat type boat represented.

A blanket Multihull organization would be a welcome. Just keep avenues open for everyone to race and they will come.

It was fun to see a set of twins from Ohio, the last two summers, participate in many of our events. They have an old H16 and have spent lots of time learning but they are hooked and they are our future in this sport..

Ok, I've read through the dribble and have come to the conclusion that a great deal of you (Kip, Rob, etc.). Just don't get it.



Yes, NAHCA runs a great deal of the races in this country. Is it "illegal" to not invite other "x" classes? No. Immoral - yes, illegal - no. The problem you brainwashed morons, is that in a majority of the country if you don't own a hobie than you can't even sail/race it in your area!! Your not welcome at hobie regattas and your damn sure not welcome at the local yacht club. That I believe could be considered conspiracy, exclusion, discrimination, mental harrasment but, hell let's not go there.



NAHCA's , well more directly Jeff Alter's position is wrong. It is killing catsailing by dividing like minded people into two groups. Your local fleet should be setup for all sailors, the fleet can have multiple affliations (NAHCA, PC, Tornado, Mystere, Boyer) so that all sailors can feel welcome sailing a cat!!! Excusivity, does not bring anything to the table. Hell if it did we'd still have segregation! Everytime I hear this "Hobie" only dribble I think about "colored" only/White only signs in the south.



The issue is past one design racing. If you can't see that then you need a reality check. I think every fleet in the US needs to affiliate with NAMSA, then look at NAHCA, and their other affiliations as just that- one design affiliations. After that happens if you want one design only racing, then schedule different regattas using the other classes as support crew on your "on" days, and then support them the same way when its their turn to go sail.



If you look around you, which your probably too narrow minded to do. You could probably grow your fleet by atleast twice its size, have more club dollars, more volunteers, more opportunities for friends,and a better bang for your buck.



The support your dealer dribble is bullcrap since most dealers sell all cat products (or will). You brainwashed NACHA morons need to see the light of day! Get past the box you sail and look at the sport.



Sorry to be so meanspirited but for now I'm ashamed to sail a HOBIE



Steve



H20 622 (for sale) -- maybe I'll buy a jetski so people have a reason to hate me!

That also brings up a thought. Why in the Hell do you think Jet skis got such a good shot? Well let's see......



They where cheap (not now but originally) -- Yes, but so was a cat.



Everyone could use one with instruction -- yes, cat too



National dealer network -- yes, oh I forgot so did cats (actually at that time more cat dealers in nation -- how about today?)



National manufacturer support -- yes, opps -- cats nope, never (see hobie didn't even care when it HAD market share)



National organization -- nope, opps -- NAHCA was there protecting our butts! (I feel so safe and cared for)



A couple of reasons that there are sooooooo many jetskis out there and why we are a dieing sport.



1. The jstski is easy to buy, you can play alone and if you want to race there is a national sanctioning body sanctioning ALL jet boats.



2. We are a fractionalized, petty group of individuals with no focus trying to shout our own objectives with no national body that has any teeth.



We need a national body with some LEADERS than can dictate to the manufactures what we want. Right now there are less than 10 people deciding the fate of the sport for the rest of us. WHY? Thank you for asking Virginia. Because it is easier to cry, get lost in open debate, play patty-cake, than to do a hard job.



Think it over.



Steve

Why not utilize the USSA Multihull Council as the national governing body for all multihull groups. Its there, working well, and ready to go. Just a thought.

One of the issues which is a great point of contention is the perception that MOST Hobie Regattas, races sponsored by Hobie Fleets, do not allow non Hobies to race at all.

I would like to hear from all Hobie Fleets which sponsor a regatta and tell us their position.

I will begint by stating that Hobie Fleet 97, Division 9, Raleigh, NC, has encouraged X boat participation in all events for many years and several years ago allowed X boat owners to join.

I began as a rec. sailor on a Nacra 5.2 and then an 18sq. before I got tired of the dwindling open starts and bought a Hobie 17. I didn't buy a Hobie 17 because it is a great boat, I bought it because we often had fleets of ten or more 17's at Division 9 regattas. Had I been ostracized by the Hobie Fleets because of my Nacra, I could have ended up on a monohull. Had I been told to "Go buy a Hobie and we will be nice to you" I would have told them to KISS MY butt.

The question, as I see it, is which end result do you want?

Apparently I have not done a good job of explaining my position. I will try again here without calling people dumb, retarded or morons.



I am a sailor and racer that enjoys one design racing. I have raced under various handicapping systems and while it has been enjoyable, it has not been nearly as enjoyable as a one design race. The most prevalent one design racing in catamaran sailing is with NAHCA. I have been to many of these events and thoroughly enjoyed the product that they produce and the atmosphere they create. By and large, most Hobie sailors enjoy Hobie races because they enjoy one design racing. I plan on attending more of these events in the future as they are fun for myself and my friends and family.



I do not feel it is the fault of NAHCA for the decline in sailing in general and more specifically cat sailing. NAHCA has a good product and has no need to change it or incorporate other cats because there is no national organization. If there is another organization that wishes to form, I will likely attend some of these races. By and large, these will be handicapped races due to the wide range of cats sailing. It is this type of racing I do not like, thus I will attend less of these events. Do I object to another organization running multihull events?? Heck no! Go for it!



Why is NAHCA responsible for all multihulls, as you suggest? Just because NASCAR is at all time highs, do they now need to run CART and IRL and F1?? No! Does the NBA now need to run MLB? No. Just as NAHCA does not need to run all multihull events. I don't object to other cats joining in races, as long as there is someone there to score them. It is a pain to score handicapped races....I've done it before. Maybe a portion of the non-Hobie race fees should go to the race committee who scores them?? I hope this clarifies my point and I'm sorry you're so angry as to call people you don't even know derogatory names.



Kip

Hi:



I think it is a little unfair to claim that NAHCA is the governing body of all multihull racing when in fact it is the North American Hobie Cat Association and is s'posedly the Hobie cat sailors' class association. Therefore it is reasonable for the organization to act in the interests of the Hobie classes. That's fine. Where I have trouble is when a national group tells local fleets who they can invite to regattas. I guess there was precedent in the class association years ago for doing this, but the cat's been out of the bag for a long time now and open class and other classes have been attending Hobie fleet organized regattas for a long time in our neck of the woods. A return to the days of old would be economically hard on the fleets in the mid-Atlantic area and a disservice to mid-Atlantic constituents. And here in the mid-Atlantic area, all classes, Hobie and non-Hobie have pulled together for the good of cat sailing. Why do otherwise?



With respect to ressurection of NAMSA, what is the purpose of forming another national organization? We already have one in US Sailing. They do a terrific job on handicap ratings and they're tied into the sailing mainstream. I don't wish to be in a separate organization that is outside of mainstream sailing so that we never get accepted into the mainstream. The only thing that an umbrella organization might do, in my mind, is to help with regional scheduling. Hobie Division 11 does a great job of that here. We, CRAC, are members of Division 11 and participate in developing the regional schedule. It works fine for the mid-Atlantic area. While you might argue that Division 11 is NAHCA, well who cares? It works great here. Would an additional organization, such as a regional NAMSA group, administer scheduling of regattas so that conflicts wouldn't exist within a reasonable travel area? Why couldn't the USSA areas organize this? I believe that Area C covers the same region as Division 11. Is that true in other parts of the country?



On the other hand, as far as our region is concerned, why fix what ain't broke? As I said before, we work happily with our friends in Division 11 to organize a yearly schedule of regattas that benefits the most sailors. And we all bring something to the party. Why reinvent it?

OK "majsteve", let me see if I have this correct. You weigh in with your comments at the beginning dialogue about an INCLUSIVE cat group (NAMSA) by tellling all the Hobie sailors who may support NAHCA that they are brainwashed, are "stupid morons", discriminatory, exclusionary, possibly racist, and are doing something immoral. Oh, I forgot, these "Hobie people" are also "narrow minded" and out of touch with reality. I think you inferred that their expressions on the bulletin board qualify as "dribble" as well--I guess you mean that what they have to say is not worthy. Did I get that right? And aren't you also the mover and shaker of the INCLUSIVE NA F20 group in its formative stages; a group that is supposed to bring together 20' cat sailors?



Your diplomatic style is certainly unique when it comes to helping an INCLUSIVE group get off the ground. Starting off by bashing one major part of the community that we are trying to unite is certainly a different way to go about it--but then I may not understand because I own a Hobie 20 (like you) and belong to a Hobie fleet, so maybe I'm too brainwashed and racist to understand your unique approach to generating INCLUSIVENESS.



You should be ashamed, but not for sailing a Hobie. You should be ashamed for recording in writing such an immature outburst--on par with the best a pre-teen can produce. I would suggest that you take a little time in the future to get yourself under control before you post; walk around the block, kick your Hobie, whatever, before you "enshrine" your immaturity in print. Who knows, perhaps then your intelligence will shine through your posts, not your lack of self control. Unless you truly believe what you wrote, in which case, I don't even know where to begin to address such broad-brushed stereotyping--on par with the best racists. (See the ax cuts both ways.)

Hi Sam -

We missed you at the Div 9 meeting!

Fleet 32 welcomes all catamaran sailors - regardless of what boat you sail. We also welcome open classes at all our regattas.

We even host a distance race over Labor Day weekend - open to all catamarans.

Hope that helps-

Tracie

David and Kip -- Directly I agree my "outburst" was harsh. It is that way due to all the post I recieved over this "one design" issue. I sail a Hobie yet can sailany boat that I care to. It is this love of sailing -- cat sailing that bonds us all. Yet for the hobie-ized (I include both of you in this) they can not see through the simple fact that if every boat could sail together then they could be scored seperately. Yet nationally, NAHCA has stated that "non hobies" should not be allowed to sail in anything except local regattas. This is wrong! and it is not NACHA's position to do this it is directly Hobie cat USA -- directly Jeff Alter! Yet, all of you just nod your heads and agree like the man/assoc. is a god and can dictate from high how we hobie sailors should run our lives!



This I take offense to, just as you take offense to being called a moron. I do not like the fact that I pay my dues and then get dictated to about how to enjoy my sailing experiences. Yet you guys buy the "protect one design" arguement -- it is so transparent. What he is saying is make people buy my boats so I can get a profit check!!!



NAMSA, NAF20, all formula classes are unaligned --- pure sailing organizations. They do not make a profit, no one involved makes a profit from the class decisions. Can anyone at NAHCA or PC say that??? NOPE, don't even lie to me about it I have read the bylaws, looked at who is on the boards and what they own. Have you guys??? No!



Am I trying to figure out an inclusive organization? Yes. Are you guys? No. I have tried to be fair in every manner that every organization that I am working with. Fair to even the detriment of my objects. If you'd like to talk about that we can. If you want to take a few pops at me good, go ahead. I can take it, call me names-- they don't phase me. If I have made you mad -- good! Look at your arguement and then defend it with your own words and ideas. look past the mantra for the day and think.



Some points to ponder.



Why would other designs hurt a Hobie regatta?

Why would more sailors on the water hurt a fleet?

How can other boats running on a course hurt one design classes?

Why do manufacturers keep dividing a small market?

Who profits from catsailors fighting?

Why can monohull sailors sail multiple boats on a course and cat sailors can't?

Why do monohull yacht clubs look unfavorably at catsailors?

Are you active in building catsailing? Independent of maker?

Have you ever said "Your not welcome to sail" to a fellow catsailor?

Is there a catsailor of a different make, sailing in your area? DO you know them? Are they a member of your fleet?



Answer those questions and ask yourself if you can hold your head up.



As for me I am ashamed of NACHA's stance. I am selling my H20 because of it. I am trying to get a inclusive group together. I work with youth sailing teaching kids to sail.



What are you doing to promote catsailing??



Steve

if a builder wants to promote its product by having a events and races then so be it. if that builder puts time money and efort into it, than so be it. if they do not want you to come because you do not have one of their boats, tuff s***.

hobie does not run my life or change what or where i sail. i just sail.

that is what being part of a class is about, and your attitude is part of why the f20 will not get off the ground.

grow up.

i wanted to add that for a smart guy, you sure do say some stupid things

basket.case --- good name.



Ok let me look at this. NAHCA is not owned by HOBIE Cat. It is suppose to be run by, supported by, and for Hobie sailors. (Or so the bylaws read -- do you have a copy? If not I can post them to you.)



Second -- I own one of "thier" boats. IE I paid for it. Its my boat and my association. Where do they get off on "suggesting" that I treat other catsailors as outcasts.



As for promoting the class, sport. When did you see the last check from Hobie to NAHCA. I can tell you -- 1972.



You may not like my "attitude" -- its because I speak the facts.

That is grown up! When did you come around and offer your constructive two cents worth?



Also, if you want to be a part -- your still welcome. I guess thats the difference between an open organization and NAHCA's suggestion --- your still welcome whether we agree or not.



Next time you see a non hobie catsailor -- say "Hi" you might find a friend. Or would that hurt Jeff's feelings?



Steve

I race a hobie because I want to, if i wanted to race another cat I could, all over the north-east, at almost all hobie regatta's. would I expect to go to nacra or mystere ect.'s national championship on my hobie? No, why would you have a one design portsmouth race?

As for brainwashing I have never seen anyone belittle another cat sailor for whatever they chose to sail, I guess up here where the season's short we just don't have time for that crap, we all just like to sail.

by the way I don't race my H16 because it's the best boat, I know it's not the fastest bigest strongest..... but it's the most fun for me, racing boat for boat head to head, one design. You wanna race portsmouth, go ahead most, hobie fleets will acomodate you across the country but don't take my fun away just because it's not your fun.

cheech

fleet 204 syracuse

H16



ps just because ford is the number 1 truck dealer does that mean they should start sell chevy's too? you know, to make it fair.

Cheech -- Thanks for the post. Your fleet is doing it right -- all are welcome and all can race. Yuo guys run your hobie scoring and then score the open boats. I never said that everyone had to start on the same line at the same time.



I guess in part we are spliting hairs. Are some fleets out there being inclusive? Yes. and thats great. Are there fleets out there using this "suggestion" to run others off -- YES!



What upsets me the most is there are alot of hobie sailors with this "racist" streak against anyother boat and they'll use this "standardization suggestion" to "punish" other sailors. It is for this reason that NAMSA should step in.



If fleets came to the table with multiple CLASS affiliations then you could run more regattas with more supprt and money (dues). The only group really not liking this is NAHCA. WHY?

If NAHCA is an "not a hobie corporate alligned" organization. IE not owned by hobie cat usa -- where does it hurt NAHCA's interest? NAHCA was put in place to encourage sailing, to make it a family affair, to open a venue where people can have fun. (taken directly from early hobie advertising) -- the end of the phrase here is "A hobie way of life". Alot of people have contorted this over the years.



This is the right time for all catsailors to bond together, bring what they can to the table and grow the sport. Not the agendas of a manufacturer. Chevys and Fords can drive on the roads together why is catsailing different?



Steve

Basket case -- don't we all say some stupid things?



Steve

Majsteve said. As for promoting the class, sport. When did you see the last check from Hobie to NAHCA. I can tell you -- 1972.



FYI



Today, Hobie Co. writes a check for each issues of the NAHCA News letter. Something that I think is good, and important to the class.



I'd rather be sailing.

Bob O

Fleet 204 Syracuse NY

Fleet 295 Rochester NY

NAHCA Member 2066

US Sailing Member 241225G

NAF-18 Member TBD

NAMSA ???

Tiger 852

H16 104506

Thank you for the correction. I missed that one in the annual report.



Steve

I have to add that Hobie USA Co. supports a lot of regattas through product give-a-ways, rental boats, etc. (like the Wave nationals at Rick’s place) and in regards to the H16 worlds supplies 60 new boats (along with other support that they do not have to supply), and Hobie USA is planning to supply 60 boats to the 2004 H16 Worlds, if they come to the USA or Mexico (most likely to take place in Mexico, Yucatan Peninsula). For instance with the Hobie 16 Trapseat Worlds they are giving much to the event. And the NAHCA is very supportive of the Trapseat worlds, and in many other instances. I am a member (along with my family members) of NAHCA (IHCA) and USSA because they support sailing and work very hard to make events and especially youth events happen. They are not perfect but are doing their best. Also, if you do not want to be part of NAHCA why not join USSA Multihull Council organization instead of creating a new one. USSA MHC council is there for you and ready to support you anyway they can. Art Stevens is a hard working chairman and will back you any way he can. Art is bringing the “Fast and Fun” youth program to our area this summer and supports us and anyone for that matter any way he can. Cheers and have a very marry holiday season!

Steve:

Try reading what I have written before you reply. Here's a quote from my first post "I think it would be wise to add other classes as an X class and they can score themselves (taking the burden off the volunteers). If you want to race one design, then buy a Hobie. This is the reason many people buy Hobies (including myself)." Now, go back and read it again to make sure you understand what I am saying.................OK, now does it say there that I support Hobie only regattas??...NO Does it say that I shun other cat sailors??.........NO Does it say somewhere that I am rude to other cat sailors and somehow I tell them they are less of a sailor because they don't sail Hobies??.....NO Does it suggest that Hobies are the fastest boats??......NO

I, like Cheech, choose to sail and race a Hobie because it is a one design. As I mentioned before, I don't like handicapped racing (doesn't mean I don't want to see it at Hobie races). I don't know where your anger comes from, but it is clearly clouding your reading comprehension. You are reading things into what people are saying and turning it around. NAHCA is doing the right thing. If Fleets want to add an X class........by all means, do so.......I just ask that the X class provide someone to help with the scoring. Good Grief, is that asking too much??? Steve, please slow down on the reading and try and read things once again to make sure you are comprehending them correctly.

Kip

Kip, Don't insult my intelligence. I have read your posts and did not attack you personally in those areas. my comments were perhaps too broad stroke. Directly, I do not condone NAHCA's stance or "suggestion". If it is not your stance then relax and look at from the outside.



I have always supported someones right to choose. This is one of the reasons I support a Formula concept. If you choose to race a H16 one design then fine -- go for it. It is right for NAHCA to say that you can't race against other 16 foot designs? No its wrong. When you look at the infrastructure in this country -- you can see that in a large portion of the midwest you can not race unless you race at a "Hobie" regatta. In south Florida, alot of the "Hobie Fleets" don't even have any hobies in them. Yet on the books they are still "Hobie" fleets.



You are the only person responsible for your actions. NAMSA is proposed to be a voice for catamaran sailors, not one design classes. Is Art doing a great job, yes he is. But, he needs help even inside USSAILING! If NAMSA was an umbrella organization then USSA MHC would have some teeth due to the solidarity of catsailors. Then Art and MHC would have some pull inside USSA. Most of USSA thinks cats are something thats "unsavory". This is a poor opinion of us all. Part of this is due to the contuning fighting between HOBIE and PC corporate. Hobie brings NAHCA into this by trying to enforce this "one design at risk" argument.



Hobie and NAHCA have done alot of good. I'm not going to say they haven't but, when something or someone says to do something that is not right -- it is not our role to just follow blindly.



I have never understood why a company feels it can control its market the way Hobie uses NAHCA.



As for supplying boats for nationals, international and regional events. That is a clearly defined marketing program that is in place to sell boats. And they sell everyone of them after the regatta. Simple supply and demand. Build inventory -- display it and sell it at a perceived value. Thats business 101.



I don't hate Hobie -- I think they build a great production product. I feel my H20 is a better built boat than the 6.0NA and I like the racing of it. Is it the fastest? NO. Is it the best design? NO. But, in all I have liked every Hobie 20 sailor that I have ever met. Could I say the same thing if I had sailed an I20? I honestly couldn't tell you due to the "I'd rather sail the box my hobie came in than a nacra" mentality that is previlant in many fleets.



What we as sailors need to do is work inside NAHCA to show them the error of this "suggestion" and then join NAMSA to help promote catsailing to the rest of the world. Niether, NAHCA or USSA MHC says it is thier job to do so. If it is not thier job than it is ours (catsailors) to do so -- conjointly.



Steve

Let's clarify a bit...



Majsteve says:



>>You may not like my "attitude" -- its because I speak the facts.<<



One of the problems here is... many of the "facts" are not quite right. I'm not sure if they are being twisted for effect or if he is just plain un-informed.



1) Jeff Alter does not work for Hobie Cat USA or Hobie Cat France, Brazil, Australia or any Hobie Cat manufacturer. He is a contributor to the class. Jeff donates TONS of his personal time and effort to support Hobie Cat sailing and gets no "pay check" for it. He is a kind and thinking man who loves the sport and the class that his father created. He has a clear understanding of what made Hobie Class racing great to start with and these concepts are still valid today.



2) Hobie Cat USA does tons to support Hobie Cat racing and NAHCA. A few contributions I can think of at the moment are:



Hobie Cat gives Cash support to NAHCA (a large percentage of the NAHCA annual budget). Also, don't forget that the class association used to be 100% Hobie Cat factory. The entire class association staff were paid Hobie Cat employees... There have been hundreds of major events put on by the factory over the years... So where does this notion come from?



>>"As for promoting the class, sport. When did you see the last check from Hobie to NAHCA. I can tell you -- 1972."<<



I would not doubt that the "class support" from Hobie Cat is in the Millions of dollars over these years... last check to NAHCA 1972?... where did that come from? It was The Hobie Class Association back then anyway not NAHCA.



Hobie Cat USA supplies giveaways to every Hobie Cat regatta that asks. Hobie Cat USA pays for and I do the layout and digital work for the bi-monthly NAHCA News cover. This is time consuming and certainly not cheap. We run a contest in every issue with more giveaways. All of this to stimulate interest in the class.



I can't even estimate the amount of time and effort staff put towards support issues. We also personally attend many events. Many of the upper management were Hobie Cat enthusiasts and racers way before working for the company. We have personal histories, interests and caring for the Hobie Class Association that came before employment with the company. It really is not just business interests that drive us to support Hobie Class racing. Does any other Company offer this kind of support to any other catamaran class or association? Any class or association?



It is not easy to sell regatta boat product and is certainly not the most profitable (if there is any) way to do business. It is a costly and time-consuming ordeal that takes a huge toll on the factory personnel. We have been stuck with un-sellable used product many times. It is certainly not, as stated by majsteve:



>> “As for supplying boats for nationals, international and regional events. That is a clearly defined marketing program that is in place to sell boats. And they sell everyone of them after the regatta. Simple supply and demand. Build inventory -- display it and sell it at a perceived value. Thats business 101.” <<



It is a HUGE investment in time and money and in the recent decade, no slam dunk "sales 101".



Hobie Cat supports the US Sailing Fast and Fun program with discounted product, free parts and many other services. We are currently storeing the programs semi trailer and recently refurbished the Hobie Wave fleet without any cost to the program.



3) What is this??



>>"I honestly couldn't tell you due to the "I'd rather sail the box my hobie came in than a nacra" mentality that is prevalent in many fleets."<<



Do you even know where that "sail the box" thing came from???... That's ancient NACRA talk... This certainly is not a Hobie sailors saying or attitude.



4) Don't forget that if NAHCA had not allowed other classes to "join in the fun" a number of years ago... we wouldn't even be having this discussion. It would have been a "just-Hobie" class association as it was originally intended (as all Class associations are supposed to be). That’s why they are called CLASS associations right? (This is quite seperate from the issue of allowing other classes to join in at Hobie fleet events.) We may have lost a couple more fleets without multihull support, but the net outcome would likely have been the same at this point. Hobie Cat and NAHCA are certainly not to blame for this downfall in interest in catamaran sailing (sailing for that matter). That is a complex issue of economics, fading fads, available leisure time, other available interests and many other factors.



The recent decisions by the North American HOBIE Class Association will allow the fleets to focus on what always has been important... Hobie Cat racing! The guidelines are set that allow for fleets to do their own thing with multihull classes. I really don't see what all the fuss is about. If it is multihull control of the NAHCA... forget it... look at NAMSA or somewhere else for that.



The North American Hobie Class Association should remain Hobie oriented first or what is the point of having a Hobie Class Association? I fully support the idea of having multihull starts at Hobie events. I argued for it when it was first proposed. It allows other Hobie models (that don't have numbers) to race as well as allowing other brands. It allows fleets to have larger turnouts... but, Hobie Class racing should remain the focus and goal of Hobie fleets. It is the original Hobie concept, it works and it is the most fun.

As Matt says ----- Let's clarify a bit...

Ok Matt I will admit I do not have direct access to inside information like you do but, lets go over a few things here.



You said --

1) Jeff Alter does not work for Hobie Cat USA or Hobie Cat France, Brazil, Australia or any Hobie Cat manufacturer. He is a contributor to the class. Jeff donates TONS of his personal time and effort to support Hobie Cat sailing and gets no "pay check" for it. He is a kind and thinking man who loves the sport and the class that his father created. He has a clear understanding of what made Hobie Class racing great to start with and these concepts are still valid today.



Question: Isn't the Alter Family still equity owners of Hobie cat that recieve dividend/profit payments from the company as revenues occur?



My point here Matt is if this in indeed the case then Jeff Alter is ipso facto an employee (of sorts) and should in no way have a major impact in the workings of NAHCA.



You state ---2) Hobie Cat USA does tons to support Hobie Cat racing and NAHCA. A few contributions I can think of at the moment are:



Hobie Cat gives Cash support to NAHCA (a large percentage of the NAHCA annual budget). Also, don't forget that the class association used to be 100% Hobie Cat factory. The entire class association staff were paid Hobie Cat employees... There have been hundreds of major events put on by the factory over the years



Matt, Where is this split between Nahca and HCUSA? This is part of the discussion here. How much does NAHCA "owe" HCUSA -- in the areas of support.



Matt I really don't have a problem with Hobie, Jeff or Nahca. Where I have a problem is at this illusion of "we don't control the class" and then the double talk of "we suggest that you do this". Its about as direct as a teenager going against their parent.



Matt, I'm not trying to devalue what Hobie has done in the past. Just trying to be direct about what Hobie and Nahca should do in the future. If both would move towards a middle position with a national body then all of catsailing would benefit. I have not said that Nahca does not have the right to promote one design racing and I have not said that HCUSA does not have the right to support NAHCA. What I have said loud and clear is that NAHCA does not have the right to exclude people or suggest that "its" fleets do.



Unfortunately, this simple or simplistic suggestion has been take like the words of GOD by Moses and used to alienate other catsailors. That is a problem. Now Matt, what do you suggest to do to correct this?



Back to the other isues ---



It is not easy to sell regatta boat product and is certainly not the most profitable (if there is any) way to do business. It is a costly and time-consuming ordeal that takes a huge toll on the factory personnel. We have been stuck with un-sellable used product many times.



Matt, you and I know that this "unsellable product" is then written off across the books or disassembled and sold as parts. Don't cry a river here -- we're businessmen and that happens. Your marketing lift exceeds your negative arbitrage or you should rethink your business plan.



>> “As for supplying boats for nationals, international and regional events. That is a clearly defined marketing program that is in place to sell boats. And they sell everyone of them after the regatta. Simple supply and demand. Build inventory -- display it and sell it at a perceived value. Thats business 101.” <<



It is a HUGE investment in time and money and in the recent decade, no slam dunk "sales 101".



Matt I said "business 101" not " sales 101 - your words". You provide a healthy look of what your product is, does, says, and delivers. Then you maximize its availability -- it is the most basic prinicple of marketing. How it effects your books is another matter. If it is such a burden on your staff and company then you might want to reconsider your staff and/or business models/activities.



Hobie Cat supports the US Sailing Fast and Fun program with discounted product, free parts and many other services. We are currently storeing the programs semi trailer and recently refurbished the Hobie Wave fleet without any cost to the program.



Matt, yes you guys do and I applaud you for it. Art does a wonderful job and Hobie's support of this program goes largely unnoticed. Which I feel will change in the near future. It is HCUSA/Art Stephens commitment to this program that is taking catsailing to the next generation. A national organization like NAMSA could help in many ways.





>>"I honestly couldn't tell you due to the "I'd rather sail the box my hobie came in than a nacra" mentality that is prevalent in many fleets."<<



Do you even know where that "sail the box" thing came from???... That's ancient NACRA talk... This certainly is not a Hobie sailors saying or attitude.



Matt you need to take a reality check here for a minute. That is a very "my angel would never do that..." train of thought. It comes from both sides of the fence. Several sailors have, are, or feel like they are being run off by this latest fracture in NAHCA's direction.



4) Don't forget that if NAHCA had not allowed other classes to "join in the fun" a number of years ago... we wouldn't even be having this discussion. It would have been a "just-Hobie" class association as it was originally intended (as all Class associations are supposed to be). That’s why they are called CLASS associations right? (This is quite seperate from the issue of allowing other classes to join in at Hobie fleet events.)



Matt - that was the past and that is my point across the board.

What NAHCA has done in the past -- may in part have saved the ship but, its still taking on water and we are all going to drown before it gets back underway.



Hobie does alot of good things -- I'm the first to say it. However, as a Hobiesailor and NAHCA member its might right to say that it does alot wrong too! How things where/are handled in regards to Nahca's operation is wrong. The area representatives (some -- not trying to say all here) did not have a clue about what the average hobie sailor wanted. We in general where not querried about what the future needs are/should be.



NAHCA as I think Mark said "Is a 1000 pound gorrilla" in alot of the country. It has just enough clout to hurt you but not enough to run the jungle.



Hobie Cat does alot of good things and the staff are nice people. Please don't take this critizism as a personal attack -- I don't believe that anyone is or wants to commit fraud here.



What I am saying is that policies need to change and both organization need to toss their parts on the table so that others can in order to build this sport nationally.



Other organizations like CRAM, CRAW, CABB, Tornado Class, A Class, PC, and the others that I have missed. Have alot to offer. They have personel, sailors, business contacts, and assets to bring to the table. As does NAHCA (and hobie if they want to get envolved). By working with other class associations/clubs then we all move farther down the road together. Its called teamwork! Something that no one should be afraid of.



If Hobie wants more business then it needs to cultivate the market. There is more market than just what it "controls - supports" through NAHCA. We have seen the decline in all of HCUSA's catamaran product line (either offered or sold)over the years. Matt you and I know it is due to the fact that people are just not buying your product like they use to. In fact, your new designs are being built by your sister company (except the plastic boats and old models, which HCUSA plans to gradually phase out) --- you know this is due to the larger european market. Why is it a larger market? Because in europe they (manufacturers, fleets, clubs,suppliers, associations) are working together to cultivate the marketplace.



We need to have alittle vision here, choke down the medicine and try to get healthy.



NAMSA could be the vehicle that coordinates all the classes, organizes regatta schedules, publish a national monthly newsletter, manage the image of catsailing, promote catsailing, and speak via MHC to USSA about issues that are important to catsailors.



Remember Matt Hobie Alter just organized what the Yacht clubs didn't want all those years ago. USSA (run by Yacht club-crowd) still thinks of us as outcasts. Why?



Because we are fractionalized, don't want to work together, try to protect our little domains, and argue about inches taken out of each others turf. I guess its kind of like the colonies before the revoluntionary war.



Matt, lick your wounds abit. ( if you feel I attacked you personally then I apologize, I'm abit of an anarchist at heart) Think about the big picture for us all.



Steve

There are two reasons why I'm not happy with the current focus of NAHCA:



A) With some regattas struggling to survive, it doesn't make sense for the NAHCA position to 'shun' x-boat participation. Ultimately, I think a lot of us don't want to see NAHCA take this position because of the damage it can cause to our sport as a whole.



B) I'm particularly frustrated because they were glad to take my money so I could be a member - yet I'm being told that I shouldn't be able partake in regattas as a 'member' because I don't have a Hobie (a racing hobie anyway).

Steve,

I just finished catching up on all the posts (dribble?) since I posted on Friday (was busy at work). A couple of things shine through to me as I read all the exchanges. To keep hashing and re-hashing Hobie's and NAHCA's supposed sins gets us no where and its frankly getting to be a very old refrain.



You said: "Matt, Where is this split between Nahca and HCUSA? This is part of the discussion here. How much does NAHCA "owe" HCUSA -- in the areas of support."



DN: NAHCA is a separate organization from the Hobie Cat company and they have many shared interests. Is there support, yes; is there influence, yes, that follows, its real life.



You said: "I have not said that Nahca does not have the right to promote one design racing and I have not said that HCUSA does not have the right to support NAHCA"



DN: Thanks for making that clear; from your earlier posts I was unsure. At least we can put to bed a few issues that have been argued here.

1. NAHCA is not the same as HCUSA.

2. NAHCA and HCUSA can promote one design racing (I assume you mean Hobies). Thanks, I know they will be relieved to have your blessing.



You said: "What I have said loud and clear is that NAHCA does not have the right to exclude people or suggest that "its" fleets do"



DN: So we get to the heart of your discontent? That NAHCA (possibly under the encouragement of HCUSA?) wants to take the outrageous step of making a "suggestion" to the fleets in its organization! Wow, the gall! How could they be so presumptious? As a Hobie fleet commodore, I and the fleet members take the suggestion to be just that, a suggestion.



You said: "We need to have alittle vision here, choke down the medicine and try to get healthy."



DN: You said it. I don't know quite what you mean about choking down the medicine, although I'm sure you know exactly what medicine will be good for the rest of us. But we do need a little vision. I propose that an expression of vision would allow one to go beyond attack and fault finding, opening or re-opening wounds in the cat sailing body, to an expression of the future and how it will be better and how we will get there; with an understanding that there are some things we don't control such as demographics and competition for people's time. Let me be so presumptious as to offer a few starting points for those who want to exercise some form vision.

1. We accept the fact that the Hobie Cat company did much to build the sport in its early days.

2. We accept the fact that along with their success, they developed an extremely successful one design organization (NAHCA) on a continent-wide level with a corresponding system of organized racing for Hobie one-design catamarans.

3. This system has made them in the eyes of many the 800 or 1000 lb. gorilla in the cat community.

4. Most cat sailors have benefited from this competition organization.

5. It is the dependence, to some extent, on this structure that has non-Hobie owners concerned with NAHCA's pronouncements regarding the open fleet. (If this were a small, insignificant racing organization, who would be making such a fuss?).

6. We accept the fact that NAHCA should operate first and formost in the interests of Hobie cat owners to support and build Hobie racing fleets; as should other manufacturers.

7. We accept that the economic reality in these times is that many Hobie fleets need to include the open class in their regattas.

8. We recognize that in many parts of the country this is being done and everyone benefits.

9. We recognize that the suggestions from NAHCA are just that and fleets will have to make up their own minds about the open class. All fleets will act in a way they (the members) perceive to be in their best interests as they have money on the line when they put on a regatta.

10. We accpet the legitimacy of one-design, whether it is a Lightning regatta, a Hobie regatta, the Performance Nationals, a Tornado regatta, and that one-design interests can co-exist along with open class-portsmouth racing.

11. And lastly, if there is a significant need for a national umbrella organization to represent catamaran sailing interests, such as promoting the sport in general, gaining better access to the water, improving our PR with yacht clubs, improving our standing in US Sailing, organizing open class regattas outside of the Hobie racing structure, then we should look to an organization other than a one-design group or a manufacture to pursue these goals. We would expect each manufacturer and one-design organization to lend support to such an organization.



Sorry to be so long winded; a fault I find in others, I now demonstrate on my own.



David Nees



PS By the way, Steve, although new to cat sailing, I have been sailing all my life and am fully involved with trying to grow my fleet. Beyond that statement, in answer to your earlier post addressed to me, I don't think I need to list in detail my "bona fides" to you in order to participate in this dialogue.

David,



I'm going to address this directly to you. I have been sailing for 35 years, sailing cats for the last 19 years. I have competed in just about every cat out there Hobie, Tornado, Nacra, Inter, Supercat -- etc. etc. etc. Also, competed in the J22 and J24 classes. Won nationals on both J22's and 24's as foredeck on both boats. So I would say that I have been around abit. Also, I have sailed in every division that Hobie has. To be direct here David, I'm talking from personal experience.



I have been welcomed with open arms at every Hobie regatta that I showed up to sail in on my H20. When we showed up with the I20 it just was not the case. This after sailing the H20 at the same regattas for three years!!



David, here I go over your list of "agreements"











DN: Thanks for making that clear; from your earlier posts I was unsure. At least we can put to bed a few issues that have been argued here.

1. NAHCA is not the same as HCUSA.

2. NAHCA and HCUSA can promote one design racing (I assume you mean Hobies). Thanks, I know they will be relieved to have your blessing.



David, Don't be a smart butt. I have paid my NAHCA dues for fifteen years. You better believe that I have the RIGHT to cry foul here! I like a majority of NAHCA members do not feel that we have been adequately represented most of the time but, just didn't say much because it took too much effort.



You said: "What I have said loud and clear is that NAHCA does not have the right to exclude people or suggest that "its" fleets do"



DN: So we get to the heart of your discontent? That NAHCA (possibly under the encouragement of HCUSA?) wants to take the outrageous step of making a "suggestion" to the fleets in its organization! Wow, the gall! How could they be so presumptious? As a Hobie fleet commodore, I and the fleet members take the suggestion to be just that, a suggestion.



David, How long have you been a fleet commodore?? You say that you are new to catsailing. If everything is so right with NAHCA and the fleets why aren't older members vying for the commodore's slot? As for "suggestions" Hobie has been making them for years and at every turn they where set for the betterment of HCUSA not catsailing and at a few times the direct detriment of NACHA. If you doubt me call Rick White and ask him he sailed cats for longer than anyone else that I know of.



You said: "We need to have alittle vision here, choke down the medicine and try to get healthy."



DN: You said it. I don't know quite what you mean about choking down the medicine, although I'm sure you know exactly what medicine will be good for the rest of us. But we do need a little vision. I propose that an expression of vision would allow one to go beyond attack and fault finding, opening or re-opening wounds in the cat sailing body, to an expression of the future and how it will be better and how we will get there; with an understanding that there are some things we don't control such as demographics and competition for people's time. Let me be so presumptious as to offer a few starting points for those who want to exercise some form vision.



1. We accept the fact that the Hobie Cat company did much to build the sport in its early days.



@@ yes they did



2. We accept the fact that along with their success, they developed an extremely successful one design organization (NAHCA) on a continent-wide level with a corresponding system of organized racing for Hobie one-design catamarans.



@@ David your living a provencial mindset -- alot of fleets are mostly X boats now. If you live int he midwest than its probably different.



3. This system has made them in the eyes of many the 800 or 1000 lb. gorilla in the cat community.



@@ No its the suggestion that HCUSA made about ten years ago that told hobie fleets to not allow any other manufacturers boats to sail at any regatta. OH!! You don't remember that?? Well' PAL I do and It pissed me off then and it still does now. BTW. They did it for a year and then most fleets saw the light of day and reversed their course. You see most people just want to have fun, sailing with more boats is fun. No matter if its onedesign or Portsmith.



4. Most cat sailors have benefited from this competition organization.

@@ Yes as I have.



5. It is the dependence, to some extent, on this structure that has non-Hobie owners concerned with NAHCA's pronouncements regarding the open fleet. (If this were a small, insignificant racing organization, who would be making such a fuss?).

@@ David, get a grip here. How about coming over see how other fleets do it -- you know CRAM, CRAW, CABB. You'd find out that more is better.



6. We accept the fact that NAHCA should operate first and formost in the interests of Hobie cat owners to support and build Hobie racing fleets; as should other manufacturers.



@@ Wrong David we do not accept this. Sailors should build sailing fleets not loyalty to boat builders. If your boat is the best for you than sail it. If it is not than sail something else. That is the basic rights we all have. For NACHA to suggest otherwise is BS.



7. We accept that the economic reality in these times is that many Hobie fleets need to include the open class in their regattas.

@@ You betcha! Then why in the Hell is this so difficult. We need to build fleets irregardless of design or builder.



8. We recognize that in many parts of the country this is being done and everyone benefits.

@@ David, How many X boat owners do you have in your fleet? Do they have an equal voice? If so then are you still a Hobie fleet? Why could you not be a NAMSA fleet with multiple class affiliations? Or is the "H" word to hard to erase.



9. We recognize that the suggestions from NAHCA are just that and fleets will have to make up their own minds about the open class. All fleets will act in a way they (the members) perceive to be in their best interests as they have money on the line when they put on a regatta.



@@ Ok David what happens when someone elses money is on the line??



10. We accpet the legitimacy of one-design, whether it is a Lightning regatta, a Hobie regatta, the Performance Nationals, a Tornado regatta, and that one-design interests can co-exist along with open class-portsmouth racing.

@@ David, look at this again. Is it one design or a one design regatta? One designs can race at the same regatta that portsmith boats race at. If you state differently then we disagree. Its all in the scoring. With more people around you have more people to help make a regatta happen.



11. And lastly, if there is a significant need for a national umbrella organization to represent catamaran sailing interests, such as promoting the sport in general, gaining better access to the water, improving our PR with yacht clubs, improving our standing in US Sailing, organizing open class regattas outside of the Hobie racing structure, then we should look to an organization other than a one-design group or a manufacture to pursue these goals. We would expect each manufacturer and one-design organization to lend support to such an organization.



@@ David this is exactly what I have been saying. I'm not trying to strip Hobie one design racing. I am trying to open up ALL regattas to ALL boats. As I have said before it is all in the scoring!!!



david I am glad that you are active in building your fleet. Pat yourself on the back, its a hard job and we all need to do it. But, we need to do it as a group. Not as sectional divisions.

As I stated before. Unless someone makes waves nothing gets fixed. If I have to be the bad guy to make a positive change. Then I will. I want my kids (7 and on the way) to enjoy this sport. If that happens then I could care less who thinks I'm an [censored].



Steve

Steve,

Thanks for your response. First of all, if I am being a "smart butt", so are you. I am just trying to puncture your demogogery with some sarcasm; probably not a good idea, as demogogues rarely see the humor in being pricked.



I am in dispair, truly, if you think all the ills such as low fleet membership, low regatta attendance are the results of NAHCA's and Hobie's policies. It seems to be the essence of your comments. This position is so single minded and oblivious to the many other changes that have occured in our society over the last 25 years that it boggles the mind. I'm not being sarcastic here. If many believe this position, we (the catamaran sailing community) don't have a chance to improve our lot significantly.



I still don't understand your logic regarding showing up at a Hobie regatta with an I20 and not being welcomed. Without taking sides as to whether or not this was the right choice for that fleet to make or whether or not it was nice, I would guess that the fleet didn't plan for an open class and therefore had no class in which to put you. It seems similar to me showing up at a Lightning regatta with a Thistle or 49r and expecting to race; or showing up at a Tornado regatta with my H20 and expecting to race. I wouldn't expect to do so. As far as I know most regattas mention in their NOR whether or not they are hosting an open class.



In point #3, you miss the point; the suggestion to exclude other cats (unfortunate, I agree) is not why NAHCA is considered the 800 lb. gorilla, it is as I stated, because of the size of the racing organization. The same logic applies to point #5. I don't discount the other organizations you mention, but if the Hobie racing structure did not have so much influence on cat sailors and so many were not in need of the structure, we wouldn't be having this discussion, because no one would give a rat's a** what NAHCA did. The heated discussions on this bulletin board are evidence of how much the policies of NAHCA's racing structure effect sailors.



On point #8, I will echo Greg Scace's comments about the inclusiveness working in Division 11; I live in Greg's area. And our local fleet has members who don't sail Hobies. We don't make them sit in the back of the bus.



On point #9, the fleets that hold a regatta have their money on the line; not the entrants. The entrants come to the regatta, pay to get and in and sail. If the NOR includes an open fleet, the open boats come; if not, they don't.



Point #10, I love one-design racing (as I am sure do most Tornado sailors). I have raced portsmouth most of my life and get tired waiting for hours to know how I did. I have no problems with one-design regattas; they exist beyond Hobies in cats and monohulls.



Lastly, I got it! Your point is that you want to make all Hobie regattas to host an open class. In effect having all brands piggy back on the NAHCA structure. That's OK, but I don't agree. I will admit that current economics works in favor of your position. I would also council you that what you are seeking is fundamental change of the NAHCA organization. Such a change will not come about in a revolutionary way; with a frontal attack. Such a change could only come about in an evolutionary way. By attacking NAHCA and the Hobie organization, you only harden positions, when what you want to do is make them more flexible.



I hope this dialogue moves beyond this issue and goes forward about what another national organization can really do for cat sailing. Over the years, I have found that change comes as much from individual efforts done locally as from national groups that make pronouncements.



Have a good evening.

David Nees

David,



Thank you for your reply. Your comments may have been taken out of context. If they where I apologize, sometimes there is a fine line between sardonic and sarcastic.





I do not believe that NAHCA is the cause of low attendence. WE ALL ARE at fault. The continuning fracture that is evident is to blame. Let me answer a few of your comments in line





I still don't understand your logic regarding showing up at a Hobie regatta with an I20 and not being welcomed.



@@ David not logic fact! I was made to feel second class by quite a few of the H sailors in attendence. As always the people that remembered us from years past where happy to see us and brought forth all that is good about "the hobie way of life". However, those that did not remember us as sailing a different boat at this regatta -- saw us as "them"



Without taking sides as to whether or not this was the right choice for that fleet to make or whether or not it was nice, I would guess that the fleet didn't plan for an open class and therefore had no class in which to put you.



@@ Actually, there was an "open" class -- it just had 3 I20's (all of us traveled together) and a few 14's and waves. The thing that really was insulting is that we traveled 300 miles by invitation!!



In point #3, you miss the point; the suggestion to exclude other cats (unfortunate, I agree) is not why NAHCA is considered the 800 lb. gorilla, it is as I stated, because of the size of the racing organization. The same logic applies to point #5. I don't discount the other organizations you mention, but if the Hobie racing structure did not have so much influence on cat sailors and so many were not in need of the structure, we wouldn't be having this discussion, because no one would give a rat's a** what NAHCA did. The heated discussions on this bulletin board are evidence of how much the policies of NAHCA's racing structure effect sailors.



@@@ David not exactly, if it was any fleet blantantly saying ? suggestioning exclusion -- I'd be complaining. I'm just louder about Nahca because I am a NAHCA member!!





On point #8, I will echo Greg Scace's comments about the inclusiveness working in Division 11; I live in Greg's area. And our local fleet has members who don't sail Hobies. We don't make them sit in the back of the bus.



@@ David thats great for division 11. I just wish every H fleet did it the sameway. Actually, every fleet that does it 11's way should call up NAHCA and say "Whoa!! Look at this and help them work others into the "Hobie way of life" no matter what they sail. David I guess what really chaps my butt here is that Hobie regattas have always been fun for me, my friends, and family --- Any attempt to tell someone that they are not welcome just lessens us all.



On point #9, the fleets that hold a regatta have their money on the line; not the entrants. The entrants come to the regatta, pay to get and in and sail. If the NOR includes an open fleet, the open boats come; if not, they don't.



@@ My comment was more along the lines what if someone else underwrote the regatta other than the fleet?



Point #10, I love one-design racing (as I am sure do most Tornado sailors). I have raced portsmouth most of my life and get tired waiting for hours to know how I did. I have no problems with one-design regattas; they exist beyond Hobies in cats and monohulls.



@@ Agreed so have I and I hate the same thing thats why I have been outspoke about "Formula" racing. Is it for everyone? No but, it becomes an option.



Lastly, I got it! Your point is that you want to make all Hobie regattas to host an open class. In effect having all brands piggy back on the NAHCA structure.



@@ Well, your half way there. I would like to see every regatta host multihull starts. David for me its much larger than a Hobie, Nacra, Tornado --etc thing. I'd love to see the local monohull clubs host starts for cats -- score them portsmouth, they already do it for everything else.





That's OK, but I don't agree. I will admit that current economics works in favor of your position. I would also council you that what you are seeking is fundamental change of the NAHCA organization.



@@ Agreed



Such a change will not come about in a revolutionary way; with a frontal attack. Such a change could only come about in an evolutionary way.



@@ Disagreed, We have worked for years to get a change. Look at what just happened in NAHCA. The oldtimer hardliners just ousted the best asset that Hobie racing had in GA. These people are living in the past.



By attacking NAHCA and the Hobie organization, you only harden positions, when what you want to do is make them more flexible.



@@ Like I said above we (lots of us) have tried for years to help things change. Then boom!! Fearmongers ran tons of unrealistic stuff up the flagpole. SOld the it was like this in the good old days -- it will be like that again -- bag of goods. And what is really depressing is that fear won out over logic and numbers!!! Have you been to the Lake Hartwell regatta??? It was truley the closest thing to the way "Hobie" sailing use to be and fearmongers just shot the guy who put it together in the head (figuratively).





I hope this dialogue moves beyond this issue and goes forward about what another national organization can really do for cat sailing. Over the years, I have found that change comes as much from individual efforts done locally as from national groups that make pronouncements.



@@ Agreed, But people have to have a direction and help. NAMSA could do this if we (individuals) work out the kinks and sell our local people on the ideas.



NAHCA really has nothing to fear from a "brother" organization that bridges the gaps between the classes. Hell, it was the manufacturers that made those gaps in the first case. Lets be adult and put the fear of other boats behind us.



Wishing you and yours a happy holiday season.

Steve

Oh you bleeding hearts! If you do not like NAHCA (or what they are doing) then do not support them and if you feel shunned at a Hobie regatta do not support them. I sail Hobie’s and non-Hobies and have never felt shunned, yet I realize the challenges of running a regatta and help anyway I can. When they don’t have a start for my non-hobies I don’t complain I volunteer to be a timer or something, of course they greatly appreciate my help which increases my connection with their fleet. You would be amazed what you get with a little sugar instead of vinegar. So, get your non-hobie general organization going if you believe so strongly in your ideas. What I have found though is most peoples ideas and plans are 90% lip service and no action, and what I have found with the NAHCA is 90% action and 10% no action. Great people, great organization, and great company no matter what connection they have to the association and that is why I will remain a member for many years. Once again, get your ideas and non-hobie organization going and show me an organization that can do more than NAHCA (& IHCA) and promote Cat sailing better. I do think US Sailing Association Multihull Council is also doing a great job, seems they are doing more each year to support our form of sailing. Actually, I would love to see an organization that helps you poor non-Hobie sailors, because your sailing life must just be terrible, or that is the impression I am getting. Live it and do it!