beach cat recommendation

I have been a hobie 16 sailor for roughly 20 years. Have always sailed off the beach on the east coast of Fl. I don't race. I enjoy rough conditions and especially sailing in and out of the surf. I buckled the post on my last Hobie and was unable to find a slightly used one in my area. The local boat dealer at the time had a prindle escape and convinced me to buy it. I really like the bouyency and the tendency not to pitchpole but hate the rudders. Also, the boat seem underpowered (duh) especailly trying to get our thru larger surf. Also, the boat does not seem to handle very well in the surf. I was originally thinking I would sell this boat and get another hobie 16, however in reading some of the other posts I am thinking there may be better options. I am not really all that familiar with what is available and what might work for this type of sailing. Anyone have any suggestions?

http://www.sailingproshop.com/catamaran.asp

The pricing suggestions are a little outdated.

really for your type of sailing the 16 is ideally suited since it has no dagger/centerboards.

There are some nacra models that use skegs instead of boards that would fit your bill. They have more hull volume than the 16 and will be more forgiving on the pitchpole front.

I was thinking SuperCat 17.

I sail a 18 magnum off the coast. The 18 can take the sand, is more powerful than a 16 and can get airborne in strong air with 3 - 6 ft rollers. Pull the daggers outside the surfline and no problem. Sailed a 16 for many years. Like the ride of the 18 better in the ocean.

nacra 5.0

Honestly, there is likely nothing better than a Hobie 16 for sailing in surf and rough conditions. The hulls were specifically designed for riding waves and sailing through surf. They are built very tough. The tramp is high and the forward crossbar raised...all better for these conditions.

http://www.catsailor.com/forums/sho...28&an=0&page=1#Post80328

http://www.catsailor.com/forums/sho...48&an=0&page=2#Post79948

http://www.catsailor.com/forums/sho...5&an=0&page=12#Post77905

http://www.catsailor.com/forums/sho...7&an=0&page=29#Post71097

This is correct. They were designed to go through waves and surf....




... back in the 1960's.

That's right. They're worthless in 21st century waves and surf. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

haha i love the healthy competition. wait, did i say healthy? ah screw it. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

honestly though, the poster says he's sailed a 16 for 20 years so i don't think we necessarily need to do reinvent the wheel of hobie 16 up-to-date-ness debating. Some serious - oh no, serious? - yes, serious things must unfortunately be considered. this includes... 1) will you be sailing with a group of friends, just one crew, or solo? 2) are daggerboards an issue? 3) how much performance are you willing to sacrifice for more simplicity and stress-free ease-of-use? for a group of 3 or 4 people, a hobie getaway or 18 would fit the bill, since both of these are fun boats for casual cruising. i don't think the 18 would have any problem going through surf, but the getaway is underpowered compared to the 16 and i'm not too sure how it does in east florida surf (i sail there too). i've heard that the getaway is great for the solo sailor who sometimes takes out some friends, and that single-handed, the getaway is just as fast as the 16. if you're just sailing solo or with one other person, getting another 16 is one option, but you could also get a Prindle 16 which shares the Escape's buoyancy. as for the rudder system, i'm not too sure.

I went to vero beach a week ago and walked on the atlantic side for a few hours and saw a 3 or 4 Hobie 16's, 1 Hobie 18, and 2 Prindle 16's. This may provide some insight into what some people with your conditions are choosing.

Where on the florida east coast are you?

Thanks for all the advice. My only beef with the hobie 16 is the float. I will look around and see what I can find slightly used. Is the Prindle Escape an underpowered Prindle 18? Do all Prindle/Nacra boats use the rope operated rudder systems?

Will FL - I grew up sailing at Crescent Beach (near St. Augustine) and still do. Back in 'the day' on any given weekend at least 10 hobie 16's and a few prindles would be out. Today its about 25 PWCs and the Occasional H16. Saw a getaway recently. A guy comes down from Atlanta a few time a year. Looks like a pretty nice boat. The wings seem like a concern. Love to fly a hull and wave jump in the inlet. Simple is good. Not really focused on going fast in flat water. Some of the new Nacras without daggerboards look good. I would like to find something used because we leave it on the beach thru the summer.

the design is 40 years old. durka durka.

How about a 57 Chevy, a 59 Vette an old Indian Chief or a Harley Pan Head. Throw in the Hobie 16.
You can like the timeless American classics or the flavor of the day.
To each his own as mom said.

Mike, Love the modern surf comment

40 year old design? First one was delivered in 1966:


Right about the time the Hobie 14 was conceived.

another 40 year old design <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Yes you are right the volkswagon is an old design. Have you ever driven on? not much fun compared to a new civic.

That rightfully so, is sitting still AT A MUSEUM as I type this.

It was decommissioned because it was inefficient. Wow the similarities are boggling!

I'll admit to finding the association between a Hobie 16 and the SR71 blackbird hard to followw.. but Hey! ... speaking of the SR71 blackbird....

http://www.teamseacats.com/2006/07/06/the-sled/

So Maugan: Any 40 year old design is no good?

'69 MUSTANG

Uhh, check that, the "beetle" was concieved in 1938 so add another 30 years. Undoubtably a timeless design to be added to the list.

1969 CB-750 Honda beginning of the "superbikes"

Not really true.

They were decomissioned because they were made functionally obsolescent by improvements in satellite imagery.

There is nothing in the sky today (that isn't Top Secret) that's faster, though.

I need to be redesigned, feeling a bit sluggish these days.

that stang doesn't look very stock to me..I guess the owner though that the ORIGINAL design needed freshening up.

Maughan must not be 40 yet.

Here's an older design than the H16.
Who would want one of those old things? <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />



"The Tornado was designed in the autumn of 1967 by Rodney March from England, with help from Terry Pierce, and Reg White, specifically for the purpose of being the new Olympic Catamaran, which was to be selected by the IYRU in an Olympic Catamaran Trials. The boat was developed mainly in Brightlingsea, England."

Another 40 year old design - The heck with boats - Let's talk muscle cars!

Matt: You are so unrealistic in your defense of these old technologies. Sure, the SR71 may do Mach 5, but everyone knows it will automatically pitchpole if subjected to 21st century waves on the East Coast. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Jerome Vaughan
Hobie 16
Clinton, Mississippi

Actually there are plenty of boats better then the Hobie 16 in rough conditions, but that is an old discussion that has more then a few religious undertones.

Wouter

we are obviously witnessing a difference in mindset here.

While the H16 may be a great boat blah blah blah, it was designed 40 years ago using technology and technique from that era while other designs do what the H16 just as well or better than it does for the same amount of money. Its been very evident and demonstrated time after time that H16 owners are very defensive about their boats, so I'm not expecting any budging here.

I just turned 26 on July 7, 14 more years to go before I need to be updated. (Like the Tornado was just not-so-recently)

Unfortunately I wont be around any longer to watch the fireworks. I have to go to my damn house closing walkthrough. I decided to go with a brand new, better, more energy efficient house at a cheaper price rather than a 40 year old house that may be pretty and hold a lot of nostalgic value to some, wasn't the right fit for me.

Only the space shuttle and the planes of the later years in the X programs.

Seriously so I'm afriad. It is Prindle 18 with a Prindle 16 rig. It was intended as a rental boat or for people who really don't want to sail hard.

Wouter

Wouter: Maybe if you and Maugan would stop using the words better and worse when describing the boats. the old fashioned guys would take it better.
Is the NACRA 5.0 a bad boat compared to the Infusion?
Of course not. They are differant. They serve differant people and differant needs.
Hobie built the more modern designs that people were looking for and continue to do so with the Tiger.
The 16 fills a need that is still out there for people that want a simple boat that is great recreation or can be raced against some of the very best sailors out there.
I will be at the H16 NAC this year and I will bet there won't be a tougher cat regatta in this country top to bottom.
You can go at least 50 deep with very good sailors.
When have you been on a starting line with more than 50 one design boats? It's very cool and not about the boat design.
The F18 NAC is also shaping up to be a big regatta with great sailors.
The Wave regatta shown on the front page has 18 one design boats. Not bad boats,just serving a differant need.
They are differant, not better or worse.

vive le' differance

There may be a perception that H16 sailors can't appreciate other boats as well? Au contraire

Definatly a different mindset, I traded my 100 year old house for a 150 year old house last year. We are having a heatwave in the UK, today was the hottest July day for a century. My house is stone built and is lovely and cool.

Mind you I grew up in a pub that was 400 years old, the walls were 2ft thick and it never got cold in the winter and never got hot in the summer. So not all old design is bad design.

Gareth

I had a chance to sit and drink beer on Ollie's new Capricorn this past weekend. We tried to fill the tramp with empties to properly commision it. They are very cool boats and if I had time would have loved to go for a sail.

Maugan, I don't think you were alive when the Hobie 14 and 16 were invented, so you may not be aware that those of us who owned and sailed catamarans at the time were appalled by the weird design that Hobie Alter created. It certainly did not reflect the "technology and technique" of the time, which had already created the very high-tech A-Class boats like the Unicorn, B-Class boats like the Tornado, and C-Class boats.

The Hobie 14 and 16 were created for a specific purpose, to be a "beach cat" that could sail in and out through surf. They accomplished the purpose brilliantly in 1970 and they still do to this day.

The Hobie 16 is not just "old" technology, it is technology from WAY, WAY BACK. It is classic, and it is timeless, just like the Wharram designs.

So what is better than a H16 in the serious surf? (dont say Nacrs - in chop they go like a Ferrari on a motocross track)Anyone really tried the Supercat 17? Bet you it is pretty good.
There also seems to be some confusion with technology/modern/design seemingly interchangeable terms?
For instance, if I built a replica H16 with carbon in place of glass hulls , it would be using hi tech material, and an inferior design (not the same-inferior) because the material properties would not be exploited as well as the glass was, it is even conceivable that the localized rigidity would cause new failiures....
James Wharram and Hanneke (sp) build boats that are able to use low tech materials because they are instinctively? so smart in design. This is technology. The Polynesians had a better boat for its purpose than did Captain Cook - their technology was superior, but their materials and fabrication techniques were less sophisticated (lower tech).
It sometimes seems that people consider materials only high tech if they produce awfull toxins in the manufacturing process, and look markedly unusual...
Personally, I get goose bumps looking at a slick old Tornado tapered aluminum mast, whereas an extrusion replicated out of carbon fibre is just dumb. Now a woven up carbon mast with all the fibres in the right places, that is hitech materials exploited by smarts. Hi Tech, with a capital H.

hmmmm.... think I said that a page ago . . . SuperCat 17! Pst. it is also a rating beater, if you decide to race.

Having surfed my own H14 and N5.0 and a friend's H16, I found the 5.0 by far the easiest to surf and easiest to handle to handle in big waves without capsizing.

I think the H14 is the most fun, though--so small...

Not at all a fair or accurate comparison!

The Tornado has undergone tremendous ongoing development over its lifespan, including advanced materials and manufacturing methods and, most important of all, tremendous rig development. The Tornado is more like the Porsche 911--it's been around since the 60's, but a new one is nothing like the original.

It gets tough to tell who is who around here <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Maybe I wasn't clear enough the first time :"The Nacra 5.0 is a BETTER boat then the Hobie 16 in the surf and waves"

The amount of boats at some nationals doesn't change that fact one bit neither does whether the infusion is better then the Hobie 16.

Furthermore I laugh about these surf comments anyway. 95 % of the sailors only TRAVERSE the surf but don't sail in it for any length of time. And in the way of sailing through waves , specially short and choppy ones) there are heaps and heaps of other boats that are better.

And yes I do come from an area where we have both in significant amounts.

Talk about the truly good points of the Hobie 16, like simplicity, and I'm with you all the way. But for some reason we are more often served BS.

Wouter

Mary made some great points.
So Wouter is telling us that Hobie Alter looked at the A cat, Tornado and Shark designs. Decided to build a better surf beach cat and didn't get it right.
Who are we to argue with Wouter.
After all,what did Hobie and his champion surf team and board builders know about surfing.

I would like to know ! Who decided or concieved the idea about asymetrical hulls and actually built the first successful model. Also I would think water line length plays a big role in transversing the surf.Make a 20ft hobie 16 style cat see what happens.

20'(hobie16)=Gforce 21,I saw this beast on a recent trip.Awsome!This would make a great family boat although that was not it's intention.

Asymetric hulls go back into antiquity. The ancient polynesians, maybe others.

Well, I don't have an "informed" opinion to offer here, but I just got back from a week on Cape Fear where I got my feet (and other stuff) wet again on my new-to-me Prindle 18.

The boat had clearly sat for ages and ages, so I spent a good bit of time ironing out the rigging and replacing all lines. The weather cooperated, though. The first day out it was blowing 5-7, and the angle of the beach there such that the surf was a piece of cake.

By the last day it was blowing 10-12, and there were 2-3' seas, but, even solo, I had a permanent grin. I had to give up when it kept blowing harder. Wow, I waited years longer than I should have.

I don't know if you're still reading this thread, but I owned a P16 25 years ago; the 18 was a bigger pain to rig, so I can see where the 18 Escape would be attractive to a lot of folks. The extra sail area on the 18 made me a little nervous in the higher wind. The nervousness will be supplanted by excitement with a little more time on the water. The other issues can be corrected: catrax, righting bag, mast buddy.

I got the 18 thinking the GF would be out with me, but now I think I'll be soloing a good bit more...and we didn't even capsize once! <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />