mast floats

I have been sailing my TheMightyHobie18 forthe last 20 years and have turtled it several times over the years.My 65 year old body is suggesting a mast float to make life easier if I go turtle again. Has anyone tried fabricating a homemade float that would not look too stupid .If so .could you give a short explaination of how you did it?The floats in the catalog seem awfully pricey.

Neoprene may cost the same, I'm not sure. In any case you could make a float of it. Cut a piece wide enough to go around the mast less the track, and about 2-3 ft tall. Glue this to the mast top.

I suppose if you can't find neoprene that's rather thick, you could laminate several layers. Just guessing, I'd think you want something on the order of 1/2 inch thick, more or less

good luck with it
tami

neoprene absorbs water and will add weight to the mast when you right the boat.

I'd go with a close cell foam, like a swim noodle.

Bill

Two other options to a masthead float:

1: Have foam sewn into the top of your mainsail.
2: Hoist an inflatable float when there is enough wind that you feel in danger of capsizing. Several dinghys use these, and one of the RS Fevas at my club use it all the time.

Bill,

I do believe you are misinformed:
http://www.dupontelastomers.com/Products/Neoprene/neoprene.asp

Or else the weatherstripping industry is giving us all a real screwing.

Agreed. I don't believe neoprene absorbs water, however, the fabric that is often bonded to it when used in wetsuits can absorb water.
There are probably lighter foams that could be used, 1/2" neoprene is going to get pretty heavy, but the flexibility of neoprene would be nice. I would also be concerned about weather/UV degredation.

sm

I would consider a gallon milk jug (or something more durable like a detergent bottle). Tie it to your mainsail head when you are solo and the wind is high. Cost… free. Obviously, the increased tip weight makes it harder to right and more likely to go over.

Matt

And make sure your mast is sealed. It has to be 100% water proof. I intentionally turtled my boat with a sealed mast and went to the aft leeward corner and the boat came right up to its side. Any water even a very small about will make it very difficult to right.

You can test the mast by dunking it in the water and looking for bubbles to flow out.

Matt

My Tiger Mast has a foam core inside it, so you don't have to be too concerned about if it is sealed. This got me thinking about my H16. I bet you could remove the mast head cap and use some of the spray foam that you buy at your local hardware store for insulating cracks. You may need to attach a small hose to the spray nozzle to get it deeper down the mast. I would still seal the mast end cap with silicone, but the foam may provide more bouyancy for the mast. We need to get Myth Busters to prove this theory.

I would be concerned that the foam will eventually absorb water and will be impossible to remove. Mark, isn't the foam in the Tiger mast just a plug at the top and bottom?

It could be... I was thinking it was pretty thick.

So far as the spray foam goes, I wonder if it breaks down over time. I would think that the inside of a metal mast would get pretty hot. We may need the Myth Busters to check it out.

The only neoprene I'm familiar with is the stuff that wetsuits are made out of....and that will absorb water.

Bill,

Not trying to get the last word in here, but it's misleading to indicate that neoprene absorbs water, and we're trying to give good information, aren't we?

If neoprene absorbed water, wetsuits wouldn't work. The principle involved is that although a layer of water gets between you and the wetsuit, the wetsuit PREVENTS exchange between that layer and the ambient water around you. The layer of water next to you is warm, thus keeping you warm. Plus, the air trapped within the neoprene foam is also insulative. Last I checked, air generally floats...

If wetsuits absorbed water, then divers who normally don't have to wear weights, still wouldn't have to wear weights when they put on wetsuits, and they do. Ask any diver.

Like the fella said earlier, the cloth laminated to some wetsuits absorbs water (geez, how much could that possibly be), but no, the wetsuit itself doesn't.

I promise.

I've even consulted a couple of mechanical engineers on it, so you don't have to take my word.

If your wetsuit absorbs water, then you need to send it back or it's really old and it ain't working anymore. But in my observation, really old neoprene just gets crumbly.

sea ya
tami

We get this question from time to time about increasing the flotation by filling with foam...

Hobie masts are only capped (sealed) with foam. Foam has a weight of about 2 lb per sq foot (depending on the foam), so filling a mast or hulls would add weight by displacing the air. Foam also absorbs or can trap moisture further adding weight.

Filling a fixed volume object with foam does not make it float better. The object (when sealed properly) has a flotation based on its volume (displacement) and weight combined. When the volume is filled with air, that is the most flotation you will get. You can only increase the flotation by increasing the volume / displacement (larger sealed space).

The next critical aspect is the location of that flotation volume. The further up the mast, the sooner the flotation volume is engaged when capsized. The Hobie floats are the best scenario. They position the flotation at the tip of the mast. They offer very little windage (smaller than a single human head, but more aerodynamic) and do not disturb the airflow over the sail or the sail shape.

Adding foam to the sail causes windage and sail shape issues diminishing the sails performance. Same with foam around the mast top. Both of these ideas also allow the boat to go much further over before that flotation is engaged.

Any floatation added to the mast top will also be added weight, so expect righting to require some additional weight / effort.

Also neoprene ripps, tears and most likely will turn into a ugly mess in no time. When trailering ect.

Matt.. great explanation. Ah, I knew the Myth Busters could de-myth my theory. Now try this, if a Tiger were flying the spinaker and was traveling West at 24 knots were to colide bow to bow with a H16 traveling north and close hauled at 16 knots, which boat would incur the most damage. Ya'll try that one and let us know.

Tami,
I own 8 wetsuits. I've surfed all my life. All my wetsuits absorb water.

They all get really heavy when they are wet and when I hang them to dry they seep water for hours...the water runs down the material and the legs and ankles are the last parts to dry.

Wetsuits work by trapping a layer of water next to your skin which your body heats up. The water isnt in the suit before you enter the water, it soaks in. It holds the water, in the suit, thats the point.

I'm not putting a big sponge on the top of my mast and dont think anyone else should.

A closed cell foam - think swim noodle - would be a much better solution.

If you dont believe me take a wetsuit - weigh it and then dunk it in water. Take is out - shake it off and then weigh it again. I'll be dramatically heavier, I promise.

Dont use neoprene for a mast float, it will absorb water.

I dont care what the engineers say, they are wrong. As far as your diver example, I agree, the rubber in the suit wants to float, but so does our body, so it doesnt prove your point.

Bill

wetsuits, while having some floatation affect are not designed to float, they are designed to trap some water and as the body warms that water has an insulating affect on the body.
My Tiger Shark mast (twenty years old at least had the tip sealed with foam. Still in good order and mast well sealed.
oam in mast will not help your problem, you want more floatation not different floatation.
I know he idea of changing boats at this time might seem tired but a lighter platform might negate the need for a trainer bubble at all.

Tie a couple of swim noodles between the headboard of the main & the second batten. Great for single handling or remove them for racing.

Tiger vs. a 16 in a collision? The Tiger is way more fragile than a 16 (I own both).

16.

Last century's technology will chew up the Tiger and use the mast for a tooth pick. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

Tami - I'm a diver and a former chemist too. Here's a few things about neoprene:

- blown foam neoprene ala wetsuits does absorb some moisture; solid neoprene ala mechanical seals does not do so nearly so quickly. This has much less to do with the chemical structure of neoprene, than the construction of the material.

- sweaters work the same way as wetsuits do - air can get through your sweater, but the sweater traps a layer of air you've warmed with your body heat as an insulative layer. Air is not as conductive as other things. Although sweaters work to keep you warm (just wear one on a sunny day), you notice that cold air does still get through (why you still need a windbreaker on a chilly windy day). Neoprene wetsuits aren't nearly so permeable, but they are still permeable. This is less a physical property of the compounds in question than a mechanical property of their assembly.

- wetsuits do have pockets of air trapped in the foam 'matrix' - that accounts for bouyancy - but some water does get in through there. As Matt the Hobie guy says, a mast full of mostly air is more bouyant - that's because that air amounts to a giant air pocket/bubble, instead of lots of tiny ones.

Water molecules are rather small, just like, say, diatomic helium (think balloons), and they are capable of getting through very small "holes" in the 'matrix' of most solid compounds. You will notice that a helium balloon loses gas slowly, over a couple of days. That's because there are lots of very tiny holes - spaces between the rubber molecules - in the rubber of the balloon - and the gas leaks out very slowly through those holes, but it does.

Similarly, in neoprene foam, there are lots of tiny "faults" and voids in the neoprene, in addition to the air pockets. Water makes it's way in there. I think it's likely that neoprene that spends it's time at the top of a mast 99.9% of the time would stay pretty dry. But, Polystyrene (good old foam cooler material) foam is probably lower density. That stuff is also water-permiable, BTW. IIRC, the only mast float I've ever seen, on an Aqua-Cat, had a plastic skin around a polystyrene core - the skin helped provide mechanical protection, while the core provided bouyancy.

Finally - that's a great avatar.

Portrait?

Good science about neoprene, up until the [color:"red"]"diatomic helium" [/color] comment. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />
Perhaps it can be found near Cap'n Kirk's dilithium crystals. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

diatomic == di-atomic == two atoms bonded == He2

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diatomic

Helium is an ideal/inert gas, so, truthfully, He2 is not really stable - you have to pop some serious energy into it to get it to form, and it will quickly decay from that state back to a lower-energy (2)He (unbonded atoms). H2 is what was in my head, but then I though, nobody uses that anymore (at least since the Hindenburg!), so it would be a poor reference.

I should've picked a different (and better) example. H20 is a much larger molecule/structure than a simple He atom. Nevertheless, I think the explanation still stands and is completely valid.

I'm sure the mechanical engineers immediately thought of a mechanical seal, not unlike, say, the rear main oil seal on the crankshaft of your car (though neoprene pretty much rocks for all sorts of mechanical seals plenty of which are "watertight"). Because Water (H20) and oil (hydrocarbons - C(n)H(2n+2)) are much larger structures, they don't seep through as quickly.

The real point of all this is: the bouyancy of the wetsuit is due to the air bubbles in the foam. The same properties make it susceptible to absorbing moisture. The older the suit, the more it will absorb, due to UV damage (breakdown of the neoprene) and mechanical breakdown (the little bubbles get broken open).

Can they be smoked?

Judging from your pic... somebody has???? <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

<img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

[color:"red"] "Helium is an ideal/inert gas, so, truthfully, He2 is not really stable" [/color]

Right, it's NEVER been seen under terrestrial conditions, ever. You're right about He being small and a ballon is porous to it.

However, your comment about H2 not being used anymore, here's a bit in use. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Nothing like a little excess to make a point! <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Clayton

Well, ok, not in use for balloons...making water - that's some serious exo-thermal action going on. For real oxidation.

He2 has been seen in some labs on earth that I've been in, but, yeah, not in ambient conditions.

Actually, the website on fiberglass delamination/blistering has a good explanation of this notion too. We'd still consider our hulls "waterproof".

Beating a dead horse no doubt, but I do NOT believe neoprene absorbs water. It's rubber. The reason your suit is full of water is because the cloth bonded to the neoprene holds water. My newest wetsuit, a prolimit windsurfing suit, is entirely smooth skin on the outside. Very nice as far as evaporative cooling is concerned because there is no cloth holding water (it is however very susceptible to abrasion).
Many Drysuits have been made of neoprene (like back in the 80's and 90's). They look just like wetsuits, but with waterproof zippers. There are two reasons your suit gets wet inside- because you sweat and because the suit leaks. If your suit has waterproof glued and taped seams and a waterproof zipper, it will let very little water in.
Getting water in the suit is actually a bad thing. The reason a wetsuit has to fit tightly is so that a minimum amount of water gets in. The more water in the suit, the more water your body ends up heating- the less body heat retained.

sm

try this experiment.

Weigh your neoprene wetsuit. Go sit in the water for a hour. Get out of the water. Shake the water off the suit. Weight it again.

report your finding here.

Doesn't Hobie use a glued on neoprene anti-slip panel along the tramp frame? Does that feel spongy or water-filled?

Remember those thin neoprene bikinis back in the 80's? They were pure rubber, very thin with no fabric backing. They never seemed to get soggy. In fact, they seemed pretty hot at the time! I doubt if what looked good then looks as good now. See attached.

Your my kind of scientist David.

I sure didn't need that image today! <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />