Anti-Tiger Smack

Direct quote from the AHPC website (news item from new US distributor; see www.ahpc.com.au):

"I think we are about to explode with the Capricorn in the US and we are very excited about being on board...Darren Bundock and Glenn Ashby have been on fire in every race they have sailed this year. It was painfully obvious that their choice of boats, being a Tiger, really hurt their performance at the Worlds."

Is the Capricorn really that much better?

Manufacturer smack (spin) is worse than sailor smack!

In a nutshell, no the Capricorn is not that much better. They are all platforms that you can win on. "Shiny-itus" is abundant in this fleet.

Tiger is old and has had those years to optimise tuning. Capricorn is new and tuning is still to be sorted to some extent. If Capricorn is not faster... why design new boats?

so we can buy the old boats nacracrobies for 10cents on the dollar!

I agree, but the Capricorn has been around for long enough now that it shouldn't be an issue.

"...Why design New boats...." how long after the Tiger did the Nacra F18 come out?

Unfortunately we don't have any Caps in NZ yet but my understanding from contacts in Aus is that the Capricorn probably has an advantage in light winds (as seen in this year's Texel and worlds results) but that it suffers in choppy conditions.

As Jake said, all the platforms are very close. Each will have its day depending on conditions and who is steering. For those looking for a competitive boat at the right price get a second hand Nacra F18 (old version) and put an Infusion wing mast on it. Do that and I don't believe you'll see a noticeable difference between the old and new Nacras around the course.

Sure and from what I have read about Infusions latest the Cap might be old before its time also. A good skip and crew on a slower boat will always beat a lesser crew on a better boat.... But two equally excellent teams on boats which are not equal means..... Two years from now we will know..

yummmmmmm ten cents on the dollar....

If you qoute someone please use the whole thing. Not just what you want people to read. This was not Anti-Tiger Smack!!!!

"This is great news....congrats to all....I think we are about to explode with the Capricorn in the US and we are very excited about being on board. Robbie Daniel, who is a Tornado sailor, like Sachs, Landenberger and Darren Bundock and Glenn Ashby, said that the Capricorn was the first boat that he has sailed other than the Tornado that gives you the sportcar feel of the Tornado. By the looks of things, many other Olympic sailors are looking at the F18 Capricorn to do their cross training.

Darren Bundock and Glenn Ashby have been on fire in every race they have sailed this year. It was painfully obvious that their choice of boats, being a Tiger, really hurt their performance at the Worlds. I believe this is one of the first times they have been beat by the Sach brothers after racing for years against them in the Tornado class. Although the Sachs are great sailors in their own right, it is obvious to see that the boat did them well!

Congrats to everyone. Glad to be on board the Capricorn express. We look forward to distributing all the AHPC in the US and we are finding the Capricorn buzz growing here almost as fast as in Europe."

As a matter of interest do you have a financial gain to be made out of people seeing the Capricorn as a better boat than the Tiger?

Nice marketing. Well, we are use to people picking at Hobie to try and scratch out their "share" of sales. Nothing new.

Now the latest:

Dominating most all events in the Tornado Class, Darren Bundock and Glenn Ashby...

Seems their choice of boat at the recent Olympic Test Regatta in China, once again, played a factor in their recent results? They placed 6th.

Oh yeah, they ALL sailed Tornados over there.

http://www.sailing2008.org/SpecailTopic/...s/r-tornado.htm

Matt,
I hear what you are saying, however China was a very bizare set of racing circumstances. Alot of Favorites got their buts kicked.
I think you can argue that Bundy and Gashby are the most acomplished pairs in multihull sailing today. Glen's win this year in the A cat worlds was as dominating as is possible.

As to whether the Hobie tiger is still competitive in F-18 racing, I think is is way to early to tell. If the factory is unwilling to change the hull shape, I think eventualy it will be less competitive. That is the inherent risk in promoting a Tiger One Design that does double duty as a F-18 boat. However when you look at the results since F-18 racing started the tiger has dominated, both in market share, wins, and in top 10 finishes at the worlds. It seems you have a pretty good gig going so far.

I do admit that Jill spun it in her favor.

Sail Fast,
Eric

Sorry guys, I am missing something here.
What is the inference of this post about Ashby and co and their Tornado?
Hobie have taken weeks to answer this so it must be a good argument for their side of thought.
While I know these guys are great sailors, they would have to be truely stunning to sail so many other boats and then get up to top five in Olympic contention surely?

What Matt probably hints at is that the the Tornado is one-design, and almost single manufacturer one design at that. This proves that even the best sailors dont win all the time, so the Tiger is just as fast as the Capricorns, Infusions, Mattiasports, Cirriuses etc. Problem is that Bundy and Ashby is at their best in a breeze, and the conditions in China which Matt refers to was mostly low to no wind conditions. In low wind conditions Roman Hagara and Hans P is the Tornado team to watch.

Please nobody get their noses out of joint but as I look at it the only real cat catagory is Tornado. That is the World measure of off the beach cat sailing.
I understand that sailors of other cats can and must be truely excellent but what I said was that I simply would not expect any sailor, no matter how good to measure up in the top of the World basis without devoting every day to the winning of it.
The idea that that the Tiger has delivered an odd result in the hads of Ashby and his partner sounds like grabbing at straws. It seems that that style of boat is their bread and butter.

Warbird,
I think if you look at the classes that Glen Ashby sails in you will find that the A class is his primary boat. Bundock has been at the top of the Tornado game for many years. I think the A class and the tornado are the most competitive single and double handed cats in the world. These two dominate these classes.
Eric

Bundy and Asbhy has done very well in the F-18s (on a Tiger) also. Did they not win the worlds in 2004?

You are very right. I did not take the A into account. I was thinking more of the two handed change to Tornado from 18s.
And I don't think anyone is questioning the class of these people.
As I see it this thread is about the Tiger and its viablity against latest boat styles. I questioned the thin argument a Hobie rep had to suggsest they are winners still.
Having noted the rethoric the boat companies all use in relations to claims about their boats I don't feel confident in any argument anyone but unaffiliated boat sailors would put forward.

Plus 2003 and 2005

Just checked, and Bundy/Ashby did win the 2005 event. But 2003 was the Boulogne brothers. No matter, Bundy/Ashby are one of the very best teams on this planet anyway. Question is wether the Tiger platform has seen the end of its winning streak becouse the Capricorns, Infusions, Blades, Mattiasport and the other new ones are faster platforms. Or if they are still equal (why buy new boats if they are).

The Tacticat game is a good example that sailing skills and a little luck go a long way.
The Capricorn is IMHO the fastest platform, followed closely by the Tiger and Infusion by lower margins (Judging from the various results).

What you're seeing now is that Hobie doesn't change its platform but instead invests more in sail-development and fine-tuning (Either through the factory or the sailing community).
IMHO the problem with formula sailing is that if you want to stay competitive as a non-pro sailor you are forced to buy a new boat every year, or with every iteration of new material. Something that people without sponsors will not be able to afford. Which is probably the same reason why you see so little A-cats (2nd hand A2=€18K!).

I dont think you need a new platform every year to stay competitive in the F-18 circus. The Tiger platform has not changed that much over the years, has it? (new daggers, isn't that all?)

Boats like new A-cats are very expensive. Not to speak about a new Tornado, but the competitive life is quite long so you get to write it down over many years. If you can not afford to buy a boat, build it yourself <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> (but I agree, sailing is an expensive sport where you need lots of equipment. Beachcats are probably worse than other small dinghys)

I stand corrected, thanks Rolf.

As long as Bundy/Gashby are on a Tiger, I believe they will still dominate. Just look at all the other F18 results recently. The boys just had a bad one (If you can call 2nd bad)

Truth is guys, there is next to zero speed difference between the Tigers, Nacra (05) and Capricorns. I have not raced against any other makes.

Boat choice should more importantly come down to personal taste..... Where you loyalties lie, what looks more appealing to you, what feels better, cost or availability.

I think the Formula concept is great and can not believe the level of 'afordable'competition. I also believe whilst some may moan about the weight, it is this that makes the competition so close.

Disagree..... Many a sailor continue to perform on boats 3 or so years old. If you want to stay up towards the pointy end of the fleet, then train, train, train.... And you will have to stay up to date with sail cuts and replace your sails regularly as with any class.

And the A Class..... In Oz, along with the F18 and H16, are numericly the most popular active racing cats. I believe this trend is simular in many parts of the US. Europe ???

You're right, the Tiger platform only undergoes significant changes every other
year or so (tramp, daggers, mast, boom).

But reality is, if you want to stay competitive you need a new set of sails
every year (Main, jib, spi. Both due to wear and new cuts).
The price difference between buying a new set of sails (+/-€3K) or trading-in
for a new boat becomes so small that most people buy a new boat instead.

Tony, I dont know if changes to the tramp and boom is significant. Mast and daggers might be important. Has the extras really changed that often?

Good sails is a must in any class you want to compete, and do well in. Spis need to be changed often if you want to compete at the top level, jibs and mains less frequent. That is just the way it is. After some years the cuts stabilize, and you dont need to buy new sails due to advances in technology (whatever the sailmakers say).
Or you can start your own sail development program, learn a lot about sails and become a better sailor (time would be better spent on the water tough, if you have the opportunity).. Money to save that way, but you will need to work hard to match what the pros come up with. Good thing is that all they do are visible..

Here is a pic of our new (homemade) spi. We are having lots of fun working on how to get the best out of it.

Just to clarify,

The Tiger mast extrusion has not changed. Only the hardware has (most significantly the spreaders).

The Tiger daggerboards have not changed, either. Carbon boards are allowed, but they are the same planform and cross section as the fiberglass boards.

The IHCA Rules Committee is considering a change to the Tiger rudders, but that is still in the planning stages.

Matt,

Did the daggerboard location in the hull change? I keep hearing rumours that it did but never anything definite.

The dagger board location has not changed.

One or the top sailors on the Hobie (atchu!!!MB) mentioned that he has been working with the factory to keep the Tiger up to snuff competitively. One of the main things that he thinks will work are newer rudders. Something akin to the Marstrom Tornado Rudders. I saw a Tiger in France with this set up and asked the skipper about the caracteristics. He said that it drives like a sports car with that rudder setup. He thought it drove like a truck before.

If you are looking for reasons to buy a new boat there are plenty, but I do not think that many of the formula 18 designs today are "off the pace". The Tiger is still sailing very well against the others. I think the best reason to get a new boat is to avoid putting too much into your present boat if there is trade in value. As mentioned before you can almost upgrade to a new boat rather that outfit your boat with new sails. This also has the advantage of getting another sailor into the class, who would otherwise not afford a new boat.

Each boat may have a specific arena that it will excel in. I think that getting a nice "overall" boat and sailing it well can get you the consistant results you should be looking for. If you are only sailing in one place then you can buy a specific boat that covers those conditions. Or if there are no other types of boats you can sail what everyone else sails.

As for the price of sailing in this class...you would only complain if you have not looked at what it costs to sail in some other classes. A brand new "high performance" boat in the price range of $15,000 to $18,000 is not too bad. We are running the I-14 Worlds out of our Yacht Club next week. I have asked them about what a boat runs and it is expensive, about twice what our boats cost to setup competitively. Along with all the rigging that goes on with that boat, I will take the Formula 18...but I would love to get on one of those for a day.

Later,
Dan

[color:"blue"] [/color]
[color:"red"] [/color] Since I have been accused of some kind of sailing CRIME....or at least that is how I feel, I thought I owed it to all my fans and non fans to speak up for my self.

My first comment is that anyone who was offended by this PARTIAL QUOTE needs to find a Hobby (and this is not HOBIE SMACK....so don't even try to go there). My letter was sent as a congradulatory note to the Capricorn Sailors at the worlds. I never expected it to be posted anywhere nor was it meant to be anything except a notice of job well done to the Capricorn Sailors. I personally think it is great to have multiple manufacurers in a class because it keeps them all on their toes and in the end, the sailors win! For a long time many manufacturers have paid good money to have good sailors sail their boats....THIS HAS AND STILL SELLS BOATS FOR THEM....not all manufacturers can afford to do that...It is somewhat easy for a good sailor to make a boat look good. This is not a bad thing...but at the Worlds, I do not BELIEVE there were any paid sailors on Capricorns....this was another reason that congradulations were in order because these guys are darned good. Every manufacturer or dealer likes to see their boat doing well and should be happy when it happens as there is only one direction to move once you have reached the top....and unless you work hard on it..it is only a matter of time before you are no longer at the top and fighting your way back to get there. I think we all just need to shut up and sail because this week it may be Capricorn on top, next week may be Infusions turn and I am sure Hobie, who has had many turns in the past will be there again.

For the person who started this SMACK thing...SHAME ON YOU...and shame on you for not haveing the nads to put the whole letter up there and letting people get riled up over nothing. And for anyone who bit....I feel for you if you can let something like that get to you. I feel horrible that Bundy, who is a beloved friend of mine, got any flack from anyone at all while he was at the Pre Olympics....SHAME ON YOU IF YOU BOTHERED HIM WITH THIS!


I think all the factories need to wake up...they all need to support the sport as will will happen at the North American F18 Championships

Hobie has tried and will most likely continue trying to be an entity by them selves. The nightmare of pulling out of the Tiger Nationals in San Fransico, has giving all cats a bad name. They need to promote the F18 thing and racing in general with all sailors. Keeping sailors from racing at a regatta because they do not have a particular boat hurts all sailors as well as the orgaizers. We all have a pretty big sand box and if we play together, it will be a win win situation for the sailors...isn't that what it is SUPPOSE to be about.

I am truely excited about Capricorn in the US and thrilled with the the quality of the boat we see coming over to the US. Is the Capricorn better than its compitition?....I think so and I hope to partisipate in keeping it that way...but again this is only a positive thing for the sailors as it is an incentive for the others to keep up as it will be for Capricorn if they fall behind in quality ...I can only hope that we can once again see the POSITIVE interest in sailing that I saw many years ago when I became involved in sailing...ON A HOBIE 16 by the way!

I AM A STRONG BELIEVER THAT IF YOU ARE GOING TO TRY AND CAUSE TROUBLE YOU SHOULD SIGN YOUR NAME...I am Jill Nickerson....AND this is MY OPINION on the matter. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Jill,

Could you post your entire "...notice of job well done to the Capricorn Sailors."?

Thanks.

ah... just read the thread from the top... someone posted it already.

Must not be enough racing going on though.... when your standard "atta boy.. way to go" email to cap owners only gets spun up as marketing tactics and hobie smack.
Pretty good spin cycle....

But ... How come nobody wants to deal with the pink elephant in the room?
Can the F18 sailors in North America support three national championships (F18, Nacra F18 Hobie F18)?

So for 2006 ... 5 F18's at the Nacra Class nationals, 0 boats at the Hobie Class nationls.... (Not to mention a FUBAR with St Francis YC)

Do they run the same game plan next year? (who is they... anyway?)

Do you think F18 sailors might have a public dialog and try to reach a consensus... or will they just trust that god will provide more venues like St Francis or Racine YCs that they may screw over at the last minute by not showing up?

Based on this year's track record... WHY WOULD ANY CLUB ASSIST YOU in the future?

Good Luck... But It's hard to believe that this is a succesful strategy for attracting new racers to the class either! (The high performance dinghy sailors probobly aren't impressed by this sorry track record).

Mark

Call it a lemon, call it an orange. We're close to having 50 boats at the F18 North American and no matter how you cut it, peel it, or slice it, that's sweet. I'm about sick of this gloom and doom stuff. Those that continue to fight the major current will continue to fight the current - eventually they'll learn that past a certain point it's harder and even futile paddling against it. The momentum is pretty much undeniable at this point....but I never did notice the elephant in this room.

Having multiple manufacturers is great for the class...having one manufacturer with a clear advantage is not good for the class (which, BTW, isn't even close to happening yet). People like the ability of being able to choose their brand. People serious about their sport have shiny-itus and buy new boats - having slight (read: perceived) advances in technology gets these people to continue to upgrade (myself included). Used boats go back into the market ... it's a good cycle and a self propelling one. A huge leap forward in technology would really hurt the class but the rules are in place (and would/have quickly gone into place) to protect against that.

Success is entirely dependant upon how you spend time between failures.

I have a hit list of fortune cookies...I'll keep 'em coming.

This year's Alter Cup winner is a Capricorn distributer.

Another former Alter Cup winner who currently sails a Tiger told me he thinks the Infusion will be the new boat to beat.

Hull shape made a small but significant difference in the A-cat world, with the Flyer and A-2. To maintain their market lead, Hobie must continue to make small but significant improvements as long as the F18 platform evolves.

If Hobie were to upgrade the hulls without changing the rest of the platform, it would not obsolete the existing tiger fleet more than earlier upgrades did. Upgrading the hulls and calling it a Tiger would be perfectly reasonable, IMHO, as it's just another minor improvement. The only downside is that this minor upgrade is prohibitively expensive, which will alienate some in the short term.

The new bow-piercing designs should help most in short chop, where they can penetrate every second wave, stabilizing the rig aloft compared to the Tiger, giving the new hulls an significant advantage in hobby-horse conditions. The new hulls also have less windage, and the Capricorn is said to plane downwind. Downwind in really rough stuff, I have to wonder if the new hulls are a benefit or a liability compared to the Tiger.

I recently overheard some top SoCal Tiger sailors wondering out loud if buying a new Tiger now would be a wise investment. Well, of course they should wonder until it becomes clear if Hobie will evolve the platform aggressively enough to stay competitive. Hobie must keep these frequent-buyers happy, and I think nothing would reassure them more than a new hull shape.

Of course, I have to agree with MB about the Hobie Rudders: They stink. Marstroms (and AHPCs) have factory set rake for a light helm and no possibility of mis-drilling. The Marstroms, I believe, also have laminar flow sections for less drag when not maneuvering. They are also feather light compared to Hobie's. They also have simple reliable lockdown mechanisms that are more reliable and easier to operate. The only advantage the Hobies have are that they are cheap and sturdy, which makes them good for the vacation rental fleets.

Flying fifteen is what to look at here to see the result.
Classic/silver and late shapes make three fleets. The silver fleet ends up worth less than the classics and have to be given away as a competitive boat.

I've been called many names over the past years for given you all the glimps of the future. So there is nothing you can do anymore that will make me think twice about repeating this message>


The F18 branch will survive and thrive.

All the F18 related One-design spin-off and directly competing classen will decrease, die and vanish all together. F18 One-design races exist in the imagination only as the big manufacturers WILL follow the developments in the F18 class and hence the OD class is not truly a OD class, not even by a long shot.

Regard the F18 class as the Borg from startrek.

"Resistance is futile, you will be assimilated"

Not there is anything wrong with that. We wanted big fleets of comparable boats right ?


Wouter

The Tiger design is managed by a group that is intent on it being a competitive F18. Hobie USA doesn't have a great deal of control over it's configuration - IMHO, while I don't agree with the logic, they've done a pretty decent job in configuration control to maintain some fashion of Hobie One Design racing with the Tiger. My point is, the priority of the Tiger design is for F18 racing so the only reason I would suspect you haven't seen any major changes is that they continue to be comfortable with the performance of the boat.

Just thought I would add a little to this conversation as it is predominately about me.

Firstly congratulations to Helge and Christian Sach they sailed a faultless and very impressive regatta at the F18 Worlds and are very deserving champions.

Glenn and I lost this years F18 Worlds in the qualifying series. Actually race 6, we went the wrong way on the first upwind. We went right and the breeze came in from the left..We got it wrong! We were going the wrong way fast and finished 18th. Game over. Unfortunately for us it was still in the qualifying split fleet series and our main competition (Sach's, Mourniac, Echavarri) were not in this race and did not also suffer a high score as they were in the next heat and the breeze had settled in by the time they raced.

This left only 3 races in the final series to pull back 18 points. Big job. We went for it. We had 3 perfect risky pin end starts under black flag and finished 3,3,1. Sachs were the only ones that did not crack under the pressure and held on. That’s why they are champions.

Glenn and I will be sailing a standard Tiger rigged the same as we had for 2004, 2005 and 2006 at the 2007 F18 Worlds as we want to win.

Bundy

The organgrinder has spoken! <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Thanks for writing.
I am interested to know if you are paid some sort of sponsorship or fee for being loyal to Hobie by Hobie? Do you pay for the boat? Does this have any affect on your choices of ride?
Also, is there a learning curve for you in changing platforms that would slow a coice to change?

Oh FFS! Read what he says. According to the man himself, he made a tactical error at a crucial time and paid dearly. The champions got it right and congratuations to them. His choice of boat was of little or no consequence in this situation and makes the origional quote a little silly.

Tiger Mike

MEEEOoooow "Tiger"!, I took in what the guy said. I was asking a question to clarify what the scene is regarding sponsorhip and money and if these things help define rides for the guns of the sport. He is as close to a professional as there is and it's not a crazy question. Your not his Mommy and he can tell me to mind my own buisiness because he is a grown up. Valium's in the top draw.

I thought it was a valid question - not likely one to get a reply, but a valid question none-the-less.

Disrespectful

I don't think its disrespectful at all,

Plus, theres no written rule that we all have to sit around in a big circle, hold hands, and sing kumbaya together.

It is a bit personal though, a bit like asking "how is your wife in the sack"?, or "how much do you REALLY earn"?, or "how big ARE your 'assets'"?
Some would answer boastingly, but most would consider the questions "inappropriate" and treat them accordingly, I would, but that's just me.

From the Hobie Division 3 (Northern California) chairperson's report the the NA Hobie annual meeting.

"On the championship front, two classes, the Tigers and 17s, were offered North American events in the Division. The combined event was bid, in its entirety, by the Saint Francis Yacht Club with the endorsement of Division 3’s Fleet 240. In the end, it was only the 17 fleet that chose to attend the event. It is regrettable that the Tiger class allowed this truly unique opportunity to pass. I am pleased to report that the 15 boats in the 17 class represented the Hobie class extraordinarily well and these gentlemen should be thoroughly commended. The 17 class enjoyed the truly world-class regatta management of the StFYC’s professional regatta staff and the undeniably gracious hospitality of the club. It was a stellar event! It’s a pretty nice place. It has some nice views as well.

I understand that there will be a full report on the Tiger class NA issue by the regatta committee; I hope to add some comment to that report before it is presented. This is the second year in a row that we have not had a NAs for this class which is very much a shame. This was indeed a world-class opportunity well and truly blown! With an organization such as the StFYC, very much at the progressive fore-front of our sport, the impact of this non-event could well extend beyond the local area and region. I was at the event every day, on the committee boat for most of the time, and I would like to reiterate that the Hobie 17 class saved a lot of face for the Hobie class."

From the Race Director's report to the annual meeting.

"TIGER
Tiger North Americans

This event scheduled for July at the St Francis Yacht Club in San Francisco was canceled due to a lack of entries.

A bit of history regarding the event. it was conceived by John Craig, the Race Director of the St Francis Yacht Club. He contacted us last year with an inquiry as to hosting the event. We met John at the Tiger Worlds in Santa Barbara, and went over all of the details. He was given a bid package. During the world event, both Lori and PU had chats with at least a dozen of the US Tiger sailors. All showed enthusiasm for the event. There were no negatives voiced. Lori also had chats with the Factory Tiger team.

Events followed which we will transmit to all assembled during the AGM.


HOBIE 17.
One week prior to the event, we only had 9 registered boats. We made a few calls, as did some of the competitors and that figure went up to 14 boats a few days prior to the event.
PU had several discussions with John Criag regarding the situation and its effect on the event budget. The effect was that the club would go into serious debt unless we made some cuts.
We did make cuts that we felt would not effect the competiton, but were still well in the red. At this point PU recommended he not attend the event, thereby saving lodging and transportation cost for the RO. Instead John who is qualified, would be the RO.
The final registration figures were 15 boats."

Bundy IS a professional sailor and he DOES have a professional relationship with Hobie Cat.

The Tiger is by no means non-competitive, however Bundy / Gashby certainly get the most out of it as they do with any boat they sail. Hard to expect them to race the perfect regatta every time. If it was not for them dominating every regatta leading up to it, then expectations would not be so high...... 2nd is a VERY CREDITABLE effort.

1. I am a professional sailor. No one is hiding that. Thats why its called the Nissan Hobie Cat PRO Team.
2. 18 of the top 22 at the f18 worlds are also professional or beniting in someway.
3. I have been approached by the majority of manufactures for similar benifits.
4. I grew up sailing Hobie Cats (H14, H16, TheMightyHobie18) before I turned professional. '89 H14 worlds was my first international regatta.
5. Helge Sach was the first professional small cat sailor I can think of.
6. I dont think Hobie need to change.
7. Sailing is still my sport and passion just like you guys.

Anymore questions I will have to start charging as I am a "professional"..Joking. Most of you guys are probably at work and getting paid while you write this stuff. Are you professional forumers? I enjoy reading your forum when I am at the airport, great goss.

Cheers
Bundy

Many thanks for the reply. I just wish I was in your shoes as far as talent and job are concerned. I meant no disrespect but have an open interest in how these things work. If I was in your place I would be working it for all it was worth while remaining competitive and enjoying myself because that is life.

OK OK OK...NOW you're getting personal. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I am not professional and never have been, in fact I paid good money to have the pleasure!! of sailing the Tiger and this out of date boat got me into 3rd place over all going into the last race of the 06 F18 Worlds. I was at the first f18 worlds and was involved in the development of the first prototype Capricorn from AHPC, I do believe that it has a slight advantage in some conditions but the Tiger still has its day, I cannot remember one race that I had a Capricorn off the start come over the top of me, in fact if it was in any way, I would say that I had a boat speed advantage, I think you guys need to forget about the boat speed and direct your efforts to practising.
In reference to the rudders there is nothing wrong with the profile of the Tiger's you do get a little bit of flex from the white ones but the carbon rudders even though it's only an outside layer work equally as good as a Capricorns the only reason the Capricorn gives you the impression that it is better is in the hull design, that it sits on top of the water and not in it. The talk about wave piercing is all sales talk, if you analyse video footage of the two boats there is less pitch in the Tiger then the Capricorn this is caused by added volume in the bow and the stern, which cause's it to sail up and over waves rather than through them (wave piercing?). Quality the Tiger does have some faults, but don't kid yourself the Capricorn is no Mercedes-Benz even though you're properly paid a similar price, with a limited amount of sails you will find compression marks in the deck, and the anodising scratches easy and you will find the rudder assembly has its faults, all in all they are very similar in quality. The Tiger mast has been changed to a lighter section but this has been around for awhile, the Capricorn's mast varies from batch to batch and even Mr Goodall complained that he had a soft mast section at the 04 Worlds and there were complaints at the 06 worlds. So if you're thinking about buying a new boat study the results over a number regattas and you will see that you have many options, your choice should be made without the influence of Salesman.
If the Tiger can make me look good it's not off the pace! <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Mark Laruffa

WHAT THE????????

This is just a post to the general public and not intended as a direct reply to mr. Bundock.

I in fact am on the side of the people who say that any design is good enough to win a championship on; it is the training, talent and shear determination that gets you there. Still, I can't help to notice a glaring disconnect over the last couple of years.

I remember the Tiger from 1995, it had a squaretop (small) mainsail and a jib sail that was sheeted of a wire running across the trampoline. The spinnaker looked like a balloon and was launched from a bag on the trampoline. The downhaul was 1:8 and the downhaul line was a thick as my thumb. The mast rotation was placed on the boom and the boom was a large rectangular section with an internal car. Just to name a few points, there are more.

Then, quite quickly we say the squaretop being replaced by a pin head mainsail, a mylar version. The jib sheeting was moved to the mainbeam and the spinnaker sail changed slowly into a more flat shape with broader shoulders.

Only 1 or 2 years later again, the trampoline setup was changed and the squaretop sail was reintroduced which hobie called the ST mainsail. The first pentex sails were introduced. The first snuffers began to be introduced and the boom was replaced by a much lighter round tube without a clew car. The Tiger hulls received a stiffening subdeck in the bows.

A little later again the selftacker was introduced and the new STX mainsail which has a significantly larger head and was exclusively pentex based. The spinnaker went through another shape change making them actually quite good of the shelve (which before that time was not always the case). The rig was properly sorted and rumour has it that is was named the Booth set of sails. I don't know to what extend that rumour reflects reality. On the beach it was however called that for a while.

But we are not done yet, not too long ago much stiffer carbon daggerboards and rudder boards were introduced and mast rotation was moved down to the trampoline and the downhaul system became a cascading 12:1 system with specialized flexible high tensile lines to reduce friction. I just read the post by mark laruffa and he states that the mast itself was replaced by a slightly softer one in the past. If this is true then that is a significant change as well.

What can we expect in the future. First of all the new fully battened jib. Very quickly the Tiger is the last F18 in the fleet to have an old style pear shaped mast. Either all the others with elliptical masts are wrong or Hobie will join this group in the future. This of course means another mast change. And we can go on .... but I think this part of my argument is pretty clear.

So what is my point exactly ?


Well during these 10 years I have heard scores of Hobie sailors say that they thought that the Tiger was good enough as it was and never needed to change.


Personally I would like to see one of those take out a 1995 vintage Tiger to a championship and proof all of us who made changes wrong.

Now I'm sure mr Bundock and mr. Ashby will come a very long way on such a boat precisely because they are very talented and have put in enormous amounts of time training and honing their skills. But I seriously doubt they would come out on top sailing this 1995 vintage boat. When given a choice I'm sure they will opt to use the 2005 (or 2006) version.

Give it another 10 years (or even less) and the same can be said of the 2005 version. Ergo the Tiger design NEEDS to change and WILL change in the coming years. It is inevitable.


Wouter

Well that took a lot of work to say nothing!!! we all know about the changes on the Tiger. Hobie has handled the arms race pretty good it still the closest thing you'll get to one class racing, I'd just purchased another second-hand Tiger which is almost 3 years old with the view that I can compete in the next Hobie Worlds and be competitive next couple f18 championships, and we live in the land of the Capricorn. For a boat that you keep trying to make look like its a had been, has forced the APHC to modify the Capricorn with two versions of a cunningham, two locations of stay and spreader fastenings, two types of front and rear beams, three variations to hulls at least six variations of mains, talk of moving the centre board's and changing rudders, all this just to keep upto an outdated boat, why don't you just leave it alone and go sailing.

Regards Mark
Ps; you must have too much time on your hands a hate to think what's going to happen when winter finally hits Europe

Did no one notice the Attachment??? WHAT THE!!!! <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Yes, I noticed and wondered what a spaceship from the 80's "shoot em up" computer game 'Elite' was doing here <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

The Tiger is pretty dead as topic for this thread, so I might as well ask. What is it? The next Predator?

Oh, a last thing. As a down under citizen, you are not allowed to make jokes about wintertime. It's pretty awful and we northeners are allowed some slack! <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Well said Mark, (in both notes)

I noticed the attachment but thought I was swarn to secrecy. I guess the word is out then.

Tuck.

PS Kite arrived yesterday. Looks great, thanks.

Mark,

Is that lip on "WHAT THE" the "don't go underwater" thing you were talking about in France? Looks interesting...have to tried to attach something to an existing boat to see if the concept works? I know that the marine architects think it is cool but does it work? Maybe you could get some older design of boat and make a foam mold then glass it right onto the hull then try to bury the bow. I would like to see the video of that!

Later,
Dan

well that should take the presure off the Tiger!!!
thinking of you all I am on my way to Yeppoon for two days of Sun <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />
don't be a looser see you there Feb 2007 party time!!!
do not forget it is a open event so come and see whos the fastest
mark

If one lip works why not have five and get five times the lift. Oh, then it would be a clinker lookalike.
I can see the headlines now! Tiger updates to clinker.
Settle Tiger groupies..just kidding.

As the foundation president of F18 in Australia, the formation of which, was a catalyst to formalization of NAF18 and international status of the F18 class, I would like to make a few comments:
I am a Tiger sailor
I am I even a Hobie dealer
I have stood on the podium in most F18 events here.
With help from some others, I formed the Australian F18 class in the hope that all keen competitive catsailors could compete together and enjoy camaraderie. It worked for a while. In the beginning, I used to encourage others to purchase Nacras and even the "fledgling" Capricorn, in the hope that the class would grow and prosper. There was no aggressive marketing. Hobie won EVERYTHING here for a long time and even still does win most events. We never used the F18 class vehicle to deride other designs. Sure we would spruke of our achievements on our own commercial sites but we never berrated other manufacturers or their choice of boat in the public arena. Call it integrity, call it pride or dignity but it was a genuine attempt to build a class in which we could all benefit, by way of competition and boat sales.
I am well known for my "pie" theory here in Australia where we al help to grow the pie and benefit from increased participation.
The quote from Jill Nickerson appears on the Capricorn website. I find it offensive. Whilst it is a private opinion,Obviously it is endorsed by a manufacturer whose primary motivation is increasing market share.To date, official Capricorn involvement in positive promotion of the F18 class here has been zip! Yet they think it is appropriate to slag the opposition.
I've had a gutful of over-enthusiastic zealots who do nothing for the common good. Some see criticism of the opposition as a means of advancement.

I have other options which are far more enjoyable and much less work than F18. They are looking better by the day!

Mal Gray

I could be wrong Mark, but that schematic looks to me to be some designers way of manufacturing a hull with "tumblehome" yet still make it from out of two "female" moulds (instead of out of two "split down the middle" halves). In so doing the "hull/deck" join becomes the "step" or high chine along the sides. Building a hull in "female" hull and deck moulds has always been much more economical and time conservative than "split moulding”.
Basically the hulls would be built "upside down"

Interesting to hear this.
When I first found my Taipan 4.9 I had no people at all to talk to about what the boat was. On going to the AHPC site I read that I had bought the fastest boat on the planet which basicly s**t miracles.
I suppose I just wanted to believe all of that because I had one. It has taken a long time to find it is still a strong, high performance boat but has fallen behind because of lack of development and others emulating it. There are a whole bunch of boats that would usually whip it's A** and I am in this conversation because I felt the overenthusiastic rethoric on the site made me feel lied to. That made my sailing growth slower.
I am not saying I was lied to but it felt that way.
I was shocked that a sport that relies so much on tech and onto it inovation would be so flowery about reality.
As I tried to find out how to set the boat up I was gobsmacked about how little tech exchange there is between cat types, let alone mono/cat cross pollination. I think not trading trust and ideas slows the fleet down.
The rehoric does not stop at boats. I have also had to try to find my way through sheets and cords to understand which type and why.
The boat shops I found out after hundreds of dollars just talk rot and sell cord.
Then when I was recently going through a ropes catalogue I saw that the best trait one sheet type had was "its rugged good looks" at which point I learnt to believe nothing.
This site gives sailors a chance to try to cut through the BS and not spend stupid dollars. For those of you who have sponsorship or big wallets, that is great and good luck to you. The rest want to get the bang for the buck and need to do homework.
This discussion has grown from the first posting and it's not to bag Tigers, it has used them as a platform around which to discuss what is happening with boat types.
I am in a place where I have no physical contact with high tech cat sailing and right here is my class room.
To those who have delivered sensible debate and ideas, thanks. To the frightened who can't hear bad things about their ride. Get over it and make your feelings understood on the water.
From the whole of this thread what I have learnt is that Wouter has an unhealthy interest in off the beach race cats : ) and some lucky, tallented buggers get paid to do what I love and that PRACTICE RULES THE WAVES.

Hey, just my observation but I have always found that people who "bag" their opposition (them personally or their equiptment), usually bring out their competitive instinct instead and as a result tend to "raise the bar" rather than knock them out of the "race"
I may be a little perverse, but if I "win" (anything) I enjoy it much more if the "losers" "bag" me for my performance I.E "you were just lucky" or "If my boat wasn't such a dog today you would never have beaten ME", etc. That always makes me feel better than if the people that I won from say things like, "well done", or "you were definitely the best person out there today", or "I sailed as good as I ever have but no one deserves it more than you". Those sorts of comments tend to make me feel almost apologetic for winning, which takes the edge off the joy. It always feels better to have won over "bad" loser rather than "good" ones, makes what I have done feel just that little bit sweeter.

I can identify with that...I like watching the frustration oooze out of those people - makes me step up my game. I keep trying to do it until they can no longer blame it on my luck.

I don't know that your experience concerning inter exchange of ideas (or lack of), set up, technology, etc, is the "norm” WARBIRD. I have always found over many, many years of sailing that the vast majority of sailers, regardless of whatever class of boat, whether it be mono hulled dingy, multi hulled, trailer sailer, or ocean racer, whether the sailers be raw beginners or top professionals (America's cup excepted) have always been only too pleased to discuss any/all aspects of sailing with ANY interested party, and down through the years the adaptation of any GOOD idea relating to “set up”, fitting lay out, or design, has freely flowed between all and every class/type of boat.
If you want to know how anything on a boat works, or even how one class compares to another, always ask another sailer, they are always friendly and receptive to any other “of their kind”, (forget the rest I.E chandleries, sales people etc).
There is a camaraderie amongst all sailers, even if two of them are “deadly” enemies on dry land, they will still immediately go to each others assistance if needed “at sea”.

Ya gotta love the sore losers. They make it very hard not to smile from ear to ear while you beat them on every point of sail. But, always take the high road whether it's competition or selling boats or anything else. This thread was started because of precieved negative selling.

Negative selling only goes so far. Once the customer catches on that the majority of the pitch is trashing the competition they'll probably walk. A good example of no negative sell are NFL coaches. You'd think the opposing team were all gods from Mt. Olympus the way they talk.

Firstly, tell me which 16 footer without a kite is quicker than a Taipan 4.9 ?????

Also, if you fully optimised the platform to F16 specs (increase beam, self taking jib, snuffer, updated sails etc), I think you will find it to be at the top of the F16 class. The T4.9 was a $hit hot boat when it was first released some 14 yers ago..... and continues to be.

OK, Capricorn have spun events in their favour to help market themself..... Just like many other manufactures and other products in the past...... That's marketing. Not like Hobie Cat have not been down that path before.

AHPC make a very good product which can not be denined..... It may not be a Merc but if you want that sort of quality, expect to pay double and give Marstrom a call.

My personal opinion is that the Capricorn is a better finish and a more user frendly lay out then the Tiger. That is my personal taste and you do not have to agree with it..... But that is a large part of the reason I bought a Capricorn.

The Cap has also shown that it is atleast no slower than the Tiger as the Infusion will do also in the future.

I will say it again, the truth is there is [email]F@%K[/email] all difference in speed between the boats and unless you are at the very top of the fleet, you will not notice the speed difference.

Now lets all stop this Manufacture bashing and just get out and sail...... Let the Manufactures fight it out themself whilst we sit back and enjoy the spin offs from it like improved quaility boats and competitive pricing.... The just choose the boat that is better suited for you.

I'm certainly not a great sailor, but the most rewarding wins I got this year was when a nacra One-design I-20 sailor (with the huge new mainsail) said to me that the only good thing about my boat (modified Taipan 4.9 = F16) was its lightweight. He said it to me on a club race day and later on I beat him to the finish line in both races (elapsed time). Call it luck, call it skill, or call it "he was having a bad day", I don't care. It was one of the best vindicating experiences ever.

He never said anything afterwards.

Wouter

Mark,

I object to your insinuation. Were did I say the tiger is a "has been" ?

And what has the Capricorn got to do with my comments. I never mentioned it. I only commented on the eternal "Tiger needs not to change" mantra, when it does change anyway.

The other stuff is approaching plain name-calling.

Hell, I drove your girlfriend around on a shopping mission for (also) your 2004 Punta ala campaign. Yes I guess I have too much time on my hands if I'm willing to do that. Next time I will just flip you guys off, okay.

And if you really want to know, I did see the pictures of your new design. My first thoughts, lets see it build and perform first. Up till then it is just a couple of electrons in an PC display. Am I being over critical here ? No, I just have the experience that it is actually quite hard to transform an idea in to a succesful sailboat (or even class). I've witnessed countless idea's which were aborted along the way. And I am informed enough to know your first Preditor design.

Good luck Mark,

Wouter

read the blurb about the Taipan on the site. While I know it is a great little boat
(I did choose it) and the others have all played actch up for over a decade the site would have you believe it is in a league with the 18s and 20s or maybe just the fastest boat in the whole World. I am talking about the rethoric.. I see it as unmittigated BS.

Wouter, I think it was you who said the Taipan was in danger of falling behind because of a lack of development. If we were not discussing a particualr boat, what would you think about the "hype' the retailers indulge in?

It is actually not in danger of falling behind, it has actually fallen behind already and the gap widens slowly but surely. This is partly the reason AHPC is currently designing its replacement. The Capricorn F16.

Actually it doesn't pains me to write this, certainly not in the way other boat owners seem to do when their design is subject to scruteny. Even my own boat, a modified Taipan, is falling behind currently. The new Ashby and Landenberger sails are just better then mine suit of sails (Goodall/Redhead from 2003). I know because I test sailed these as well as the other boats (Stealth, Blade).

Is the Taipan (or my own boat) out of its class for this reason ? Not yet really. While falling behind the Taipan is still about as fast as the newest designs in its class (F16's). Meaning to the extend that even a little difference in sailing skills can overcome this inequality. Which brings us back to the point that time spend on the water (training) and talent are the things that really pay off and not the choice of boat.

With the right upgrades there are a couple of years left in the competitive life of the Taipan but only with the right upgrades = changes. Something I need not convince you of I think.

I do believe the upgrades are small enough anually to prevent an arms race and to make participation not more expensive then in a pure One-Design race.





Well, some hype is necessary if you want to sell boats and stay in business. I had to do it when I was still an official in the F16 class. I never really did enjoy that part but it is an absolute necessity or you are going nowhere.

But I do believe some retailers are going over the top and I don't have much respect for that. In the end of day even Hype must be based on solid truthful core. I personally think the quote :"It was painfully obvious that their choice of boats, being a Tiger, really hurt their performance at the Worlds." was over the line of good taste.

In addition I fully expect private sailors, like the ones on this forum, to act against the hypes and provide the counterargument to the hype. I fully appreciate it when such a thing happens to the boat and hypes I favour. If the hype did have a solid core of truth then the this counterargument will never really hurt the design or sales as it will repeatily "proof" itself by reality. And I think most of us do accept a certain portion of hype. Afterall, we all understand that you don't approach a lady by first naming your bad points, right ?

Well this write-up is rather old and back then it was true to a large extend. In the last 10 years the other classes (Tornado, F18, A-cat) did really see alot of development while the Taipan was frozen in its 1989 state. It is indeed telling it took so long for the others to consistantly stay ahead of the Taipan. The introduction of the spinnaker to the other boats really was the thing that turned the fortunes of the Taipan.

But I agree that the I would have worded the pitch a little differently. But then again I'm the one who has been arguing that the Taipan class needed to incorporate design upgrades into their class for the last 7 years.

Still, we must also realize that with the upgrades the Taipan is indeed of the same order as the 18's and 20's; even the newer ones (assuming equal sailor skills). This latter condition is not a trivial one as the skill level in the Tornado, F18 and A-cat classes is just so incredibally high. Alot of people believe they can buy a good boat and immediately sail in the leading pack. But in reality you need a good amount of time to get to know the boat and work up sailing skills c.q. team coordination.

I don't think enough of Taipan / F16 sailors are putting in this effort/time yet. I certainly don't. I got a new crew almost every year. This is skewing comparisons.

So overall, I don't think it is unfounded BS, even though I would have worded the write-up significantly differently. I agree with you that unfounded retoric is bad taste and also just simply bad.

Almost as bad as not upgrading your boat every now and then.

C ya

Wouter

What blurb are you quoting...... I see the following and do not see ANYTING missleading in it.

Also the Taipan is such a great little boat which punches well and trully above its weight.

VYC Yardstick

Taipan 4.9 Sloop - 73.5
Alpha Omega 5.0 - 82.0
Calypso 16 - 85.5
Cobra 16 - 84.0
Gemini - 88.0
Hydra 16 - 85.0
Hobie 16 - 81.5
Hobie 18 - 78.5
Hobie 20 - 73.0
NACRA 5.0 - 81.0
NACRA 5.2 - 79.0
NACRA 5.5 - 73.5
NACRA 5.8 - 72
Stingray 18 mkII 74.5

Taipan 4.9 cat rigged - 76.5
Dolphin 16 - 85.0
Hobie 17 - 82.5
Hobie 17 sport - 79.0
Nacra 16sq - 79.5
NARCA 18 sq - 73.5

From the AHPC web site

The T4.9 is not and never has been an F16. The reason why Greg is not persuing it is because the 4.9 class is alive and well in OZ and it is not the manufacture, but the class members who have a say in its future.

If they wanted to introduce a new main sail, AHPC would be more than happy to develop one.

If you did want to optmise the Taipan 4.9 as an F16, you would increase the beam, add a carbon mast, self tacking jib, more modern main sail, snuffer and spinnaker. To do this you will change the entire boat with the exception of the foils and hulls.

And if you did do this, I think you will find it will give no ground to a Blade or a Stealth.

Greg will plan to develop a new F16 based on the Capricorn so as not to do damage to the existing T4.9 fleet.

Wouter, lighten up, the posting was not all about you, [censored] if a ozzie wonts to offend, you would know about!!anyway you should go back and check out all our postings you have a lot to say.
lov mark

Alright, everything is cool then

Wouter

Actually the changes I am making are a little different.
I already have an A class carbon mast and am fitting wings so beam won't be widened and there are good arguments for that. I am still deciding what height to have it. I will trial the boat as a super sloop with the larger genoa and if I can hack the pace I will cut the size of the jib and add a roller furling hooter kit because I can't be bothered with a Spinny set up.

If it comes down to who to take seriously about the advantages and realities of a Taipan 4.9 in regards to reality or just hype I will follow the lead of Wouter. Simply because he has one, is a tallented sailor and is undeniably studious and devoted to making it go fast.
But I hear your argument.

It is the development of other boats in relation to the old blurb that I refer to. Old blurb is no excuse..it is a website so update it. For that matter update the boat. making an entirely new platform truely will leave the 4.9 in the past.

I have sailed 4.9s quiet often over a long period of time. Our club whilst numbers have dropped recently, boasted a good fleet of them. Australia still boasts a good fleet of them and get good numbers to major regattas.

Wouter admitted he has never taken them that seriously or realy put the time into them. He may be a good sailor, however the AUS 4.9 fleet is in a different leauge and have some real world class sailors.... Sailors that have placed at the top of International fleets such as A Class, Tornado and F18.... And I am not just talking about Gashby.

"If it comes down to who to take seriously about the advantages and realities of a Taipan 4.9"..... Then talk to the AUS Taipan fleet.

Quote or direct us to the 'old' blurb or it no longer exists.



I don't think you realise how the class stands in OZ..... You admit in previous posts that you know very little about the 4.9 and that you also have no one to race aginst in NZ.... Yet you feel qualified to pass these comments.

Firstly, it is the class members that make the decision to change... Not AHPC. The class is alive and well and its members are currently happy, so why change. Also, name another 16 footer without spinnaker that comes even close at the moment.

The Hobie 16 is way out of date.... Should they change.

Personly I think the hull shape of the Taipans are still up there with the best of them.

Something you may begin to understand about me is that I am hear to learn, not just to see myslef in print or to be right. If I do not pass comments I cannot participate. You are clear that the Taipan is outmoded speed wise compared to the F16 version of same boat. So let's not pretend those advances do not exist. Sure, If we go back to 1995 the Taipan is awesome, but as Wouter says the advances have been made and AHPC have not decided to advance the boat and wish to go with a new platform. Is that not the death nell/ If it is so crash hot why are the very people who designed and made it moving on?????
You have said in your last post the numbers in your club have dwindled.What are they sailing now?.. I will bet the boats they have chosen are a new box rule class with spinnies.
The boat will always be a great ride so die hards will keep racing them, or odd balls like me in the wops who just have a need for speed, just because they exist but do you seriously think that when the new boat come out that people will buy the old one and the old Taipan 4.9 class will thrive and grow?

The Taipan does not meet F16 specs.... It is not a spinnaker class for starters. Different boat, Different market.



Once again... It is not AHPC descision but that of the association and it's members. Still after 14 or so years, the Taipan has no equal as far as 16 foot non spinnaker cats go...... So show me where the Blade, Stealth ect are superior here. The 4.9 is optimised for this configeration where the others are optimised for spinnaker.

If you decide to optimise and develop the 4.9 as an F16 then some F16 sailors will be eating some humble pie.

However, as I stated before.... It is in the best interest of the 4.9 class to develop a new platform for F16 so as to not do any damage to what is still a very strong class.



Our club has dropped in numbers significantly with fleets such as 4.9s, A Class and Nacra 5.8s which were previously the most popular classes now seeing small fleets as with all other classes. Some of our 5.8 and Tornado sailors have moved into the F18 Class but in general, we as with most sailing clubs, have just lost members.

In Oz the strongest cat fleets nationaly are still the A Class, F18, Hobie 16 and Taipan 4.9.

Hey Stephen, those yardsticks are a little "misleading". although the Taipans have been racing for many years and their yardstick represent THEIR current comparative performance against boats such as A class, Formula 18's Tornado's and 5.8 Nacra's, there are a lot of cats on that list who's ratings have been "stuck in time" and bear no relationship to current performance (if in fact all of them were even still racing)
One comparison that you have neglected is the comparison of the CURRENT Yachting Victoria yardstick rating for the F14, which at 77 compares very favourably to the 76.5 and the 73.5 for the Taipan. (If I were sailing a Taipan I would definitely want it set up as an F16, if for no other reason than to “get the F14’s off my back”)

You can't have it both ways. If the Taipan 4.9 is not developing because of the sailors but AHPC want to make an excellent F16 why are they changing the platform. They don't have to ask the 4.9 fleet for permission and if they kept the same platform the older boats would have more life.
I will stick with my first position, Wouter seems for more pragmatic and less passionate about this one.
But passion is a great thing.

I am in no way passionate about the class, have never owned one and only been a member of the Association for the Capricorn Nationals this year only.

I just call it as I see it and it looks like we have people passing comment from other countries that have no idea about the AUS Taipan sceane which is where it is ALL happening.

Why not post these comments on the Taipan Yahoo group forums and see the responses you get.

I think you will find Wouter is more passionate and has more of an interest in the 16 footers than I have.

Darryl, yes some of those yardsticks may be a little inaccurate..... but not by THAT much. I am quoting 2005/2006 yardstick data too.

From what I have heard the little F14 is a bit of a giant killer too and look forward to saeeing it at Forster soon.

The Marstrom 18 is much quicker than the A Class..... So should the A Class evolve ???? Has it been left behind, in the past.

M18 is wider, taller mast, larger main and a spinnaker added.

The F16 is also wider than a Taipan 4.9, larger main, spinnaker added.

Should the 4.9 class and A Class move ahead with the times????? If their members disagree and the class is still strong, then why change.

Don't get me wrong... I have always been vocal about how I would like to see the 4.9 move to full spec F16 and the A Class adopt spinnakers.... However this is not what the class wants and it should not be forced upon them.

I don't know Stephen, there never was a competitive race ever sailed by an Alpha Omega 5m when they didn't absolutely "thrash" any and all Hobie 16's over the line, and when the Taipans were in their first three years of racing (with many top sailers in the class as well) and the 5m Alpha's still raced competitive fleets, it was only on the rare occasion that a Taipan would ever cross the line in front of the first Alpha, But sadly that is all in the past “glory days" when numbers of ALL cats were really "up" and “inter class” competition was at it’s highest peak.
We are really looking forward to Forster, BUT, lets be truthful now, you will only be pleased to see us if your view of the F14 is from looking at them from “some where over your transoms”! If you have to look forward to catch a glimpse of them, will we have “worn out our welcome”?? (He, He, He).
(Personally – and it is just a personal opinion – I think that the Taipans are missing a golden opportunity by not “upgrading” their specs to full F16 as a class. It would achieve the greatest outcome with the minimum disruption, and breathe new life into the class that would see them at the “forefront” for many more years to come).

I couldn't agree more. Carbon mast isn't even needed (F16 minimum tip weight mitigates some benefit.) Wouter's F16, with a new set of sails, should hold with any brand new F16.
The newer sail cuts are amazing--my fellow Taipan sailor in Calif. leapfrogged ahead of me in terms of boat speed with his new Glaser main; we have the same skills.

Hi Darryle,

I am not that familuar with the AOs, however knowing you were the manufacture.... I take what you say with a grain of salt. No offence intended.

Forster.... Look forward to it, however we will not be going head to head with you guys as we will probably race on an offset course (State Championships) with the A Class. Would be willing to go head to head with any F16 / F14 any time. One day we will race on the same course.

If you are interested, we could probably do a boat swap out side of racing.

Can you tell me a little about the cut of the new sail you are talking about? Cheers

When you say, "boat swap" Stephen, do you mean that we take home your boat and you take home our boat? Not sure I like that idea too much. The extra cost in towing home your boat due to the much greater drag and weight would cost us a fortune in extra petrol!!! (Only joking) I'm sure the boys would love to accommodate a boat swap outside of races, thanks for the offer Stephen.
Unlike "advertising Hype" Steve, the type of results that I described against Hobies and Taipans are all on "public record" and if anything, I have erred on the conservative side.

Also my opinion mate...... If I was the powers to be, in the class, this would be the approach I would push for.

See http://www.glasersails.com/formula16.htm

For point of reference, I have an awesome Ashby main, but it's 2 year old design--photo attached.

<img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> You are on to me

Been plenty of activity here.... good thing the boss does not know what I do with my time <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Just "BE THE BOSS" Steve
Works for me.

Great reference, many thanks

Isn't it a little bit silly arguing that I don't know my way in the way of class building and the advantages and realities of a Taipan 4.9 ?

Afterall wasn't I instrumental in putting the Taipan on the map internationally and wasn't I the one who actually made all the upgrades to my own boat ? And wasn't I a somewhat important part of an class that actually grew both geographically, in numbers, designs and cloud these last years instead of being in permanent decline ?

But to everybody his right to disagree.

Sure a good number will beat my %^#&# on the water but in the way of class policy and class growth I think I'll qualify as a hot shot that would woop many behinds including those of the Aussie Taipan sailors.

Disagree with me at your own risk I say therefor.

Wouter

No futher comment Wouter......... You are a god

Isn't self-agrandizing a tell-tale sign of the prototypical tragic hero?
:P

Let me shift the discussion away from the personal back and forth.

Stephen... you mentioned Capricorn Nationals and of course you are doing the F18 Nationals and worlds.

What is your definition of Class here... Why do you have or support “Capricorn Nationals”?

IMO, It would be like having a Nationals for Flyer A cats… but not Mark IVs or V’s or Marstroms or A2’s etc etc. What is the point?

How does having a builder sponsored exclusive nationals help your racing class which I assume is the F18 class.

What am I missing here? Don’t you undercut your class… “F18’s”… by setting up a situation where you are competing for your members time and money with a subset regatta called Capricorns, or Nacra or Hobie nationals?

One could make the argument that the F18 class should pull and ISAF move and declare sailors who compete in unsanctioned nationals… like Capricorn nationals out of bounds and banned from the F18 nationals

I would like to talk a bit about outdated designs that are still raced.

Why would you change a class that has a strong following in any particular area? If there is a class of Taipans that sail competitively out of a particular club they have a great situation. They do not have to spend money updating an "outdated" design. There will be very close racing around the entire course. They will have to get better at tactics do move up in the ranks.

At my club there is a very large fleet that has not been manufactured in, I do not know how many years. They are Cal 20s. Slow and old, but they are all the same speed. The best monohull sailors in the area are racing this boat. It is by far the most competitive fleet of racers. As far as I know, “big” fleets of these are only sailed in So Cal. But there can be as many as 40 to 70 boats (Cal20s) racing Wet Wednesdays.

The “good” about the Taipan, I suspect, is that it is a cheap boat to get into at this point. If there is a decision to upgrade this to the F16 universally how many sailors will drop from the class? I suspect the expense of just the upgrade (to F16) is about the price of a used boat.

I like the idea of having a separate boat manufactured for the F16 class so as not to confuse the issue. There will be Taipan sailors that cannot afford a new F16. They may want to upgrade but, by doing so, they are making a conscious decision about moving on. Let the 4.9 be what it is and have some great sailing until it dies by itself. The old 4.9s will be able to upgrade to F16s then.

Later,
Dan

Capricorn are merely doing here what the other big two (Nacra & Hobie) do as well trying to offer both one design and formula racing. The difference is that the people organising the Capricorn nationals actually invited the other F18 classes to attend (although I belive none did). It would have been interesting to see how they would have handled it if someone won the Capricorn nationals on a hobie.

Jack Young of Performance Catamarans did that here in the US a while back - hosted the very first F-18 Nationals during his Performance Race Week in Pensacola Beach, Florida. I remember some Tigers racing - even a Twister, as I recall. It was a fun event, ahead of it's time. Thanks Kirk Newkirk and Jack for taking the "risk" of a Hobie winning Performance Nationals. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

All hail king Woulter! You da man! <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Tiger Mike

What do you do about ISAF boats that also comply with the F18 rule such as the Tiger. IMHO that is one of the attractions of F18 - the best of both worlds. I enjoy my OD Tiger sailing and also F18 sailing. As the Capricorn grows I'm sure that will be an attraction for many of it's sailors too.

Furthermore, the fastest way for me to abandon a class would be for said class to try and force me to only sail their events. In Australia at least they would be dumped by a lot of sailors so fast their heads would spin.

I don't actually know if Capricorn is a National class in Oz (Steve?) however the symantecs of naming their national titles aside (one issue I do agree with), any manufacturer trying to build their brand with extra attractions should be encouraged.

Tiger Mike

Tiger Mike

The more "nationals" there are the more chance you have of winning a "nationals".

Of course this is true. But the chat was detailing the fact that Taipans had fallen behind other boats that went to F16. My point was that IF the Taipan was a competitive boat in F16 form then have the best of both Worlds. Keep the 4.9 class but have the possiblity of factory upgrades to F16 by not going to a whole new platform for F16. The two things are not mutually exclusive. Then everyone gets the choice.

Interesting... The A cat guys do not take this point of view. I don't know of an A class builder who meets the need of sponsoring a weekend builder class only regatta ... much less a a XXX builder nationals.

I don't think you had Reg White Tornado nationals competing against Marstrom nationals back in the day.

I believe they have two builders for 505 dinghy’s and I don't think the 505 guys have builder specific nationals, worlds etc etc.

Can you point me to any other sailing classes that do this?

The points raised in support of this notion are... More nationals.. = more trophies = more champions.

and... Hey... anything a builder does to support racing is good... don't get in their way.
(my restatements)

My response to the first comment is... OK, but why devalue champions this way.... You leave the door open to... Well X, didn’t race the #$%#^ nationals.. he was at the *()* nationals and would have... could have... should have... Whatever.

In support of rejecting this notion that more champions the better.. I would point to Stuart Walkers comments on B Fleets and how in his opinion they don't grow participation or meet the needs of the sailors. (B and C fleets being another way to give more trophies away and crown more champions) [Stuart does not race on Lake Woebegone... US Joke... all kids in Lake Woebegon are above average]


My comment to the second point is to Really ask this question. IS IT A ALWAYS A GOOD THING.. Does it build the larger class in this F18 instance. HOW does it buid the larger class.... (If some sailors will only compete at the one design national, then a one design F18 is positive... but does it undercut the turnout, status, clout, appeal, etc etc of the larger class?

So far in the US... the evidence is that builder nationals have had 0 and 5 boats and the result is to burn up a couple of yacht club hosts.

So... I am puzzled... It's not obvious to me.

Mark

I hope you don't take my comment abo0ut more championships/more champions as in support of the idea. IF F18 is the box rule then only one championship should exist. To lock other boats out of a race is to admit defeat IMHO.
mmore racing is good but a title devalued is a bad thing.
However, I think it is spurious to suggest that Tornado rules and F18 are in any way similar or can be compared. Tornado have never allowed anything like the differences in platform that have sparked this debate.

Hi Dan

I think the number of boats that you point to who are committed to racing and ACTUALLY going racing on Wed is the key. The fun factor is high.. just tempored by the slow speed that it occurs at... <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I will also snob out <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />... and say... what's the dif.. between one slow tub C20 and another slow tub... Flying Scott... or Albacore or Jet 14 or Snipe or Hampton Fill in you favorite tub... these are the ones on the bay... Nobody is switching classes either!.

Don't know the history... but I wonder what other dinghy classes have a foot hold on the left coast?

My ignorance will show through here... I don't see the differences in these monos. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

But... I do see huge differences between A cats, F18's(F16's), Hobie 16's, Hobie 20's and the Spin 20's Nacra, Tornado). Each of these kinds of boats suit a different market of the performance sailor, with respect to size and weight of the crew, experience needed, and power managed by the teams.

I agree with your point of view that the builder should take a different tack with the F16 Cap and not an F16 Taipan. Let the class go its way.

Hell they have been predicting the demise of the mid atlantic TheMightyHobie18 fleet for 10 plus years... The boats are 10 years older but the culture of the sailors hasn't changed and they hang in there and go racing. They probably stop sailing cats if the class made any changes.. they certainly aren't moving to a different hobie fleet after all of this time. (These guys are a bit of the counter example to the Cal 20's you point to)... They Simply don't align with the dominant class in the region, the Hobie 16's. ... So there is another factor to consider.

Mark

I think that I agree with WARBIRD?? The Taipan is, after all a "manufacturers" boat/design. That is how it started it's life, sure the members of the association that has grown up around it do, apparently have a large say in what ever direction it has and will travel, and that's fine, but it is still a manufacturers boat and if the manufacturer decided to take it upon themselves to "upgrade" all new 4.9 Taipans to full F16 status just what harm would that do to the class? The "standard 4.9's could still sail as an OD class as they do now with no threat to their status quo, and the "new" ones already have a ready made "class/formula" to compete within. If any buyer wanted to order a new Taipan in it's OD configuration I am quite sure that the manufacturer would be only too willing to oblige, so "where lies the problem"?
As regards the “harm/damage to the class/formula” of F18 (or any other formula/class of cat) having a “bite at both worlds” by organising both their own “class nationals (or worlds)” and competing also in their “open” formula nationals, it has become apparent to me over a lifetime of sailing that there seems to be no “rhyme or reason” as to why one class will “prosper and grow” over many many years, while another class, which, when looked at in detail, would appear to be the superior of the two, only grows, glitters and dies in a relatively short period of time. The same goes for how the class promotes itself. The methods that one class will use I.E in this instance OD “class” nationals as well as open formula nationals, that prove to be highly successful for one class, prove to be equally disastrous for another. In hindsight we can all offer definitive reasons why one failed and the other prospered but to try to “predict” how the end results will turn out is to set oneself up for a big fall. I can remember Hobie Alter saying about his early 14’ cat, “I don’t think that there would be more than 20 guys in the world that would want one of these, lets go surfing”

Don't believe it is...... The event was the Taipan Nationals and the Capricorns were invited to race along side the Taipan 5.7s. All other F18 classes were invited with a hope to make it an F18 Regatta also..... However for reason best left unsaid, they declined.

I am currently putting together a proposal for our club to host the 2007 AUS F18 Chamionships. The hardest part is deciding on a date that does not conflicted with NACRA, Hobie, Capricorn or major open regattas.

Most of the Nationals are held around the Christmas / New Year period and the F18 Association wishes to hold it before other Nationals. This means pre Christmas...... Our season starts in September and betweens Sept and Dec... The regatta calander is very busy.

It may not work for the Acats. No idea really - I have never sailed one competitively and right now it's not a class that I know much about. My only comment is that because the A's have or haven't done something be it good or bad for their class, doesn't mean it will or won't necessarily work for another class (or even different specific markets)



No idea if they did or didn't. Same thing goes though. AFAIK the T is a specific design with very limited freedoms manufactured by several builders over the years. Once again, it's a very different class from F18.



Weather others do it or not has no relevance. In our market down here it seems to be working quite well and several boat owners have noted that it is a large contributing reason why they chose their particular model boat.



I don't think it devalues anything. IMHO it is very poor form to make similar comments that you suggest (Although it does go on I agree). Whoever wins any particular regatta can only beat who turns up to race against him and to say that somebody else "would" have won is very disrespectful to the champion and should be niped in the bud very quickly. This goes on weather there is 1 championship or 5.



We are getting a little off the track here however I am not a fan of B and C fleets and/or handicap prizes. Some think differently and I respect their point of view but disagree.


Sorry Mark but the US is not the only market in the world. If it doesn't work there then don't pursue it - simple. It has proven to work in Europe and also down here and I hope it builds.

Tiger Mike.

FYI AHPC does offer an F16 kit for the Taipan 4.9. With my boat, I could sail in either F16 or 4.9 OD, but it's not really relevant in the US since 4.9s are few in number.