mid-tramp mainsheets, how to?

I'm looking to re-run our F18 mainsheet. I've seen pictures of T's and A class cats with the sheet running out of a block from the middle of the trampoline, or off the middle of the boom.

Any insight on how well these systems work? Can they be cleated and released from the wire? Also, for systems that run from a block on the tramp, how is that block attached to the fabric so that it will not tear out?

Thanks

FYI: recent similar thread in the F16 forum...

http://www.catsailor.com/forums/sho...71&an=0&page=0#Post82671

<img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

For the Marstrom type tramp sheeting, the "blocks" are enclosed in a frame that is sewn to the tramp. This is a special unit. There is a picture of the A-Class version attached. Check the Marstrom Website for prices(http://www.marstrom.com/) From the tramp the mainsheet goes through turning blocks on the front cross beam and the boom to a 2:1. The 2:1 pulls a 4 or 5:1 bewteen the boom and the traveler car. This system requires a very stiff boom (about twice as heavy as a standard F18), it's complicated, it's heavy, and it works real well.

A a boom mounted system that has been used by some A-Class sailors is shown: (http://www.layline.com/llf/Boats/505/505_mainsheet.htm)

This mainsheet runs through an eye to a 8 or 10:1 set of blocks between boom and the traveler car. It's cheaper lighter and it's easy for the skipper and the crew to use it.

Be sure you like a mid mainsheet system before you add one. they make me slower.

Here's something that I've been struggling with for the last couple of years. It seems that there are a lot of really good sailors that prefer to have their mainsheet blocks set so it is really difficult to cleat while on the trapeze (part of my Alter Cup duties was to set the rather delicate new-style Harken mainsheet cleat angle in between rotations). I have tried it, sometimes simply because my cleat wasn't set where I wanted it, and have always had a very difficult time tacking smoothly when I can't cleat the sheet just before coming in off the wire.

Is it just a timing thing where you start the tack, come in and ease the main at the same time (since it's not cleated), take the sheet across with you (sheeting in as you go), pass the sheet to the crew, then hook in?

My timing is more like: cleat the main, start the turn just as the crew's butt hits the hull, skipper in off the wire (still turning), just past head to wind the skipper is in middle of trampoline facing mainsheet blocks and uncleats the main easing 12 inches or so, out to the new windward hull, sheet in about 1/2 of what was eased out (sometimes cleat it now), crew is just about on the wire (wait just a second - use the time to refine your new heading), hand sheet over shoulder to crew, hook in and trap out as crew is cranking in the main the rest of the way.

I'm really comfortable tacking this way - but I would like to understand how to do this effectively without cleating the main.

Jake,
I set my cleat so that it can only be cleated if I lean in and lift the sheet into the cleat. It is impossible from the wire. When I tack, solo or two up, I commence the tack while still on the wire. I then reach up to the trap handle with my forward hand holding the mainsheet. At this point the sheet will ease slightly, this can't be avoided and helps the boat through the tack. By the time I'm in on the tramp the boat is already through the wind so it's a case of straight across and out the other side. Get hooked on and sheet in as you get onto the wire. NO NEED TO CLEAT AT ALL.

I'm very comfortable with the standard mainsheet system and having tried a centre system once (on a Unicorn) I'm in no hurry to try it again. The A is a fantastic boat but I hate the centre main.

Jake,

All I can say is just do it. I have always tacked like you do, but on my A it is not fast to cleat the main. First few tacks were just bad, but you will soon learn how...just keep trying. I switch the main to the tiller hand and hold the trap handle with my other. As you turn into the tack there will be a point at which you will have to pull very hard and quickly to get onto the boat, which will help pull the boat around. Helps if you are back before starting the tack.
Hunt Stockly (sp?) had a neat system on his 18HT. His wife was skipper and she had the normal sheet in the back. He had some system where he had a mid boom block that was attached to the rear main system. She would get the main in as far as she could, then he would play the main from the mid boom block from the crew position. At the tack he would un cleat, the main would go out some and as he goes to the other side grab the sheet hanging from the boom, get out and pull in and play that final bit. Can not blow the main totally, but had enough play to work the main. In a big puff the skipper can un cleat. Looked cool, but not sure how it worked in the end. May bee Bill can give some info..he sailed with them in the NE.
Ken

Jake I use the exact same method that you do and this other method sounds like the only difference is that you uncleat the main before coming in off the wire. Which would result in the main being let out before you are in irons. Does this make the tack go faster?

Yes, you tack more quickly with the sheet eased as you tack.
Your boatspeed (assuming you've got some <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />)takes you through irons and the sheet being eased allows the boat to pay off onto the new tack. As the boat accelerates on the new tack you sheet in more and steer back up to your optimum upwind angle.

Been following this thread as I am thinking about doing some kind of forward sheeting on my 6.0, so I'm not trying to hijack it into a tacking discussion, but yes, let out some sheet on the main after passing head to wind in a tack. Because of the loss of boat speed the apparent wind is especially far back, and your boat will accelerate better and organise the flow around the sails more quickly, and then you can sheet back in and point after everything is rolling...just don't let it out BEFORE head to wind. Also the boat won"t be fighting the weather helming effect of the main, so less rudder drag as you are falling off into the new tack.
Anyhow, back to tramp sheeting...

Ken mentioned that Hunt Stookey's HT has mid boom sheeting. Its actually cooler than just mid boom, the gross tune is exactly like a standard main sheeting, but instead of dead ending it in the back, he ran it along the boom to a mid boom so the crew could do the fine adjustment. He put a big know and stopper ball on the and of the crew's fine adjustment so that if the crew was busy with the spin, the driver would be able to adjust the main sheet without having to worry about mid boom end.

I think this is the slickest setup I've seen for a two man boat. I'll see if I can find a picture.

Bill

I've got a picture of Hunt and Kris sailing upwind, but it a professionally done pic, so I'm not sure I can post it. Plus it doesnt really show the midboom sheeting very well.

The interesting thing he did was figure out how much he needed to play upwind and put a big stopper ball just past that point. So he could drop it and play the spin downwind.

Looking at the picture, they used a triple block on the boom, a triple with a becket and a cam cleat on the travelor, with a single on the becket and then a single block on the boom in front of the triple and a rachetmatic midboom with a big stopper ball 2 feet past the mid boom block and then enough tail to allow trimming from the trap.

Most cats have the triple and triple with a becket/cam. It pretty easy to add the two singles and the rachematic.

Hope that helps.

Bill

Just another point of clarification on Hunts sheeting system, both of them had the sheet in their hands going upwind, so the sheet wasnt tied off to either end of the system, and they were able to sheet from either end.

Clear as mud?

Bill

diagram?

I'm too chicken to start a tack while trapped out. I ease the main a little, come in off the wire, and then tack. After completion, I go back out on the other side.

I did once (at Spring Fever a couple years ago) sail into a header so big that it backwinded the jib while I was on the trapeze. That was the fastest tack I ever made, but if the harness hadn't unhooked on the first try... well, I don't want to think about it. I'm sure swimming would have been involved.

Regards,
Eric

Agree with John,

Start tack from the wire. Come in as the boat goes thru the wind (or just before you butt gets wet).
Move across the tramp (letting a little sheeet out as you go). Cross the boat hook on and out you go; sheet in and boat accelerates.

I guess maybe I'm coming in a little early in the tack - but I'm really not a believer in easing the mainsheet until the boat just enters or passes head to wind. If it's blowing healthily I'm not sure I can climb the trampoline without issue if I wait that late to begin to come in off the wire.

I find it really difficult to keep a smooth helm while wrangling the mainsheet in the same hand while doing all this manuevering...further complicating things is that we're running just about as much sheet pressure as we can physically put in it if the wind is up too.

I will have to pay more attention during the tack. In eight or more I think I:

Keep the main cleated completely while coming in from the wire
Have the main sheet loosely in my hand which is the one that grabs the handle
Undo my trapeze by pushing it with my forearm the same side that his holding the sheet
Get to the middle of the boat right when it is head to wind then uncleat the main
Toss the tiller to the new side
Move to new side and cinch down a bit on the main
Hook up and trapeze out
Finish sheeting the main

This should take between 4 and 6 seconds total. 4 or better is the goal anyway. When it goes over 6 I hear about it from Eileen, even when we are practicing (fun sailing).

Later,
Dan

Jake,

I'm one of the sailors who angles the cleat up so I cannot cleat it from the wire. The main reason I do it is so when I am wild thinging downwind, it does not cleat as I play the mainsheet.

For tacking, like Ken Marshack, I transfer the sheet to my tiller hand and grip hard. I use the freed up forward hand to grab the trapeze handle to come off the wire as I push the tiller over. The main eases some but not enough to stop the tack. As the mainsail tacks, I ease the sheet a bit more and cleat it, and then make the swap to the new tack. I agree with Ken that you have to go out and do a lot of practice. I also agree with Ken that once you get the system down, it is faster than cleating and recleating.

There somethings about an A-Class Cat that no one has said, they steer like go karts. They turn quicker than you want them to so tacking is more a timing thing. Move aft, ease the sheet (if you need to to stabilize the boat), push the tiller as you slide onto the tramp holding the sheet tight, roll across easing the sheet, sheet in and try to find the trap before you start flying a hull. After 200-300 times. it's easy

Not sure I see any advantage other than the crew can pull from the midboom. From what I can tell from your description, purchase from the two triples plus single on the becket is 7:1 and the two tails do not add more.

Also, doesn't pulling a line from the midboom cause the boom to move towards you against the sail force, making you pulls less effective? I get this sometimes from the main traveller if it's out a bit (reaching in heavy air) and needing to sheet in the mainsheet after a gust...traveller comes up until near center before main sheet comes in.

Why not just stay with the helm handing mainsheet off to the crew for extra grunt?

The trick is to run 2:1 on the tail that goes along the boom, this takes you up to a pumping 10:1 when using two triples (or higherer if you have quads) for the fine tune. We did it on the soft sail Ronstan C-class (ex edge III) and I've also seen it done on Ts.

I'm pretty sure a fully loaded main wont move with you pulling on a block at midboom. My Acat midboom doesnt move the boom when I pull on the main sheet. Keep in mind the load is traveling thru a block and not directly on the boom at the midboom point.

If you had the midboom farther back or it was light you might move the boom.

As far as what advantage you get, the only reason I think you would want to do this is to give the crew a cleaner "pull" and not have to worry about the helm getting in the way of the main.

On the Ht (or i20 or F18) the crew trims the main and if the driver is sitting on the boat, the sheet usually is over the drivers legs or his lap. So the midboom moves it away from the driver. Not really any advantage, and it complicates the tacks in my opinion.

O the Acat the advantage to midboom sheeting is that you can sit forward downwind and play the main, since thats your main control downwind its nice to be able to sit in the middle of the tramp and face forward.

I'm actually thinking about a way to sheet rear beam upwind and midboom downwind. I think tacking a midboom is harder than the rear beam sheeting.

Bill