Eeww... someone should protest THIS

from Sailing Anarchy "Rumors and Lies:"

Banned Again?

Looks like a bit of a witch hunt for the R 33 cat. Now we hear that Long Beach Yacht Club's BOD (the club sponsoring the races that the
R33's capsized in recently), met in private session last week and voted to exclude the R33s from Wet Wednesdays immediately, but allow them to finish the remaining races in the 2006 Channel Island Series. For 2007 they are instituting a new rule excluding all boats that cannot self-right.

Yes, that would be all multihulls, assuming they are clear on the
distinction between self-right and self-rescue. The Long Beach Yacht Club is a big money club heavily involved with top level mono racing. A sailing insider says "LBYC is a major force in SoCal racing and other clubs may look to them as leaders."

There are all sorts of rumors of personal agendas, personal grievances, political maneuvering, and influence from influential people. On the other hand it may simply have been a "ban them all and let God sort them out" type of decision. "It's the only way to be sure". LBYC did not respond to ORCA inquiries before their decision, nor has a statement been issued. All reports are verbal until a copy of the minutes becomes available for public review.

Will there be a domino effect?

07/11/06

Its all a matter of who has the power/control of there... I wish more people would look at the Farrier Marine web page. "Its a matter of safety" article would clarify alot of unanswered questions.

thom

I heard that randy reynolds built the boat a couple of feet narrower than melvin and morrelli deisgned it to be so that it would fit in a conventional slip. Maybe should have thought a little harder before marketing it as a family friendly racer/cruiser. Such a tender boat should have EXPERIENCED multihull sailors aboard.

Tammy,

I don't think there will be much of a domino effect...it is certainly unfortunate. The problem is that the R33 is a pretty narrow for the amount of power it has - I believe that even Mr Reynolds flipped one recently (I could be mistaken on this). Point is...it is very unlike the Corsairs or Farrier trimarans.

I think if the Reynolds guys get a self righting technique worked out, or start building them wider, they'll get past this hurdle.

It is and has been offered in a wider version.
Rick

The original design was 16'. There was a turbo edition that was 18' with a taller stick. At that time there was also a sport edition that had a 14 beam and a short rig, for the cruising minded with slip requirements. But then the standard boat became the 14' beam with the taller rig. This was described first as being able to raise the hull earlier and therefore faster than the wider beam (described to me as think of a large A-Cat), with a second benefit of fitting in a slip.

They will build you just about any config you want, but the standard for OD remains the 14' beam with tall rig.

Okay, so which version were the ones that have been capsizing?

the 14' OD configuration.

The first one that capsized was a 16' and I do believe the 18' config has also capsized.

Mostly the 14' beam tall rig standard model. Although there was also a capsize of the 18' tall rig turbo.

There's been quite the discussion on this (multiple threads) on Sailing Anarchy, with some taking the position of "if you're scared of it and don't have the skills, don't sail it" and others of the "this is bad behavior for such a design, you're going to get us banned and our insurance cancelled".

Some feel it is being marketed as an all around family boat when it is really too powerfull to be marketed that way.

But, given the number of boats sailing, there have been more capsizes than other designs. From those of us familiar with Farrier's boats and methodologies it seems excessive, but...

On an intersting note about perceptions - I Googled for F-27 capsizes and found a Dragonfly forum where they were discussing their feelings that the Farrier boats were too high-strung and prone to capsize...

the 18 ft config capsized off dana pt ca.

There is one HUGE fact that everyone is missing. Each and every time one of these boats has gone over is due to OPERATOR ERROR. They were each preceded by someone leaving a spin or main sheet unattended and the boat gets a gust with no way to release and over they go. I believe that when Randy flipped the main sheet became tangled in the traveler and over she goes. I don't believe the boat is prone to flipping such as a beach cat, but with inexperienced people on the helm and unattended sheets the inevitable is going to happen. Until people realize that this isn't a family cruiser or a fricking Hobie 16 and pay attention accordingly then this problem will not go away.

My .02$

Martin

Agreed - it's no toy...but are you calling Randy inexperienced?

Before I paint a bad picture for myself...I REALLY like the boat - I've briefly sailed on one and helped break it down for the trailer. It is a bad-butt ride and I don't agree with them being banned. HOWEVER, when a boat that big and difficult to right is flipping at the rate they are, it makes it harder and harder to argue about it. Consider what the race committee has to contend with to ensure the safety of those on board and answer to the coasties.

By comparison,
The Lightspeed 32 is 18'wide and at least as badass, if not more. If cat racing is going to make inroads into the mono fleet, which I would like to see, we have to look like we can handle ourselves.

The occasional flip (I have seen an f31r flip at the finish line in newport) does not seem to hurt the general yachting communities opinion of multis and the people who sail them. But the reynolds situation clearly is detrimental to all of us, and ultimately those who haven't experienced the sheer joy of the wild thing.
charlie

I just noticed that tid-bit...now that sucks...and proves the point that this has already gone too far and now is affecting other classes. I have a question though...when a keel falls off one of those mono-hulls, do they no longer fit within the "self-righting" bit?

Why do you think its the RC problem?? Its faulty logic like this that drives up insurance premiums for clubs!

Race Committe's run the nuts and bolts of the race... the decision to race and the seamanship required is up to the captain of the boats. The problem of a flippy boat is for the other competitors in a race... If the boat is flipped and they sail by.. they must stop and render assistance until the situation is under control... While they will get redress... by an large their race is over (no fun for them). They probably think that the hassel of racing with a flippy boat is too much to cope with. So this becomes a club or regional sailing authority decision as they balance the competing interests and evaluate the accident.

Why do you think it is a Coast Guard problem with the RC either?... Unless you are sending the fleet into a restricted area... They don't determine whether a sailor is allowed out on the water or not. You don't need a permit to conduct a sailboat race because you don't obstruct the protected uses (channel access).

So, we face a similar issue with a multiclass yacht club regatta. The beach cats have raced in multiclass monohull dinghy regattas on the bay for 15 + years. We have added three additional multiclass events to the schedule in recent years and they want us back!!! Despite a long and peacfull record of coexistence... one club decided that beach cats were unsafe in the mix at their regatta based on a collision last year between an inexperieced P16 driver and a monohull lighting who was encroaching on the starting area and in the wrong place..... Bottom line.. the club said done and gone to the cats... They balanced the threat that the lighnings would not come back to the regatta with the loss of the cat fleet. What do you say to them... It was an accident... !$@ happens... the Lighning should have respected the cat fleet and stayed clear of the line.

It seems to us that the best you can do is send them data which refutes their impression that Cats cause accidents!

I think that is where the R33 fleet is at right now. The R33 on the Cheseapeake Bay flipped in a passage to a race. A combination of events led to the problem... a big factor was an undiscovered leak that had filled the hull with enough water to accentuate the stuff. It was an accident!

This boat has also set course records in 25 to 30 in the Gov Cup with no problems....

So.... what do you say about the possibility of accidents and a fleets participation in an event? This is a tough one!

Mind you.. I would argue that if 6 or 7 Penguins flipped (Bail them out to right them) or Snipes or Albacores or any other traditional monohull... The RC would be swamped because they could not render assistance in that extreme circumstance... However 6 or 7 cats flipped will most likely get them selves up and going again. These accidents are nominally the same but really different on the water.

So accidents have to evaluated in context... certainly the R33 owners will avoid accidents at all costs cause its expensive and they loose their boat for repairs.

I hope that the organizing community don't just listen to a few loud voices clammoring for a blanket ban.

Legally, no, it's not the RC's fault - but that's not what I'm getting at. When a 33' catamaran flips and the Coast Guard comes in to assist in the righting of the boat are you really saying that it puts NO burden on the RC or the Coast Guard? Fact is, it's a huge headache for everyone involved (certainly including the sailors). Your acting like the RC claps their hands in the air and go home when they would have normally and/or the last "upright" boat finishes. When these things happen they create a huge hazzard for the people onboard. You don't think the Coast Guard would have a conversation with the organizing authority after the race? For heaven's sake it JUST happened after the Statue Race when the CG assisted the RC30 and I strongly suspect that there will be a "self-righting" stipulation in the Statue race next year.

We have a responsibility to make sure we're not, intentionally or unintentionally, putting an extra burden and concern on those who put on these events or would come to our rescue. If we do not take good care of this responsibility, things like this will happen.

That said, I'll be the first SOB in line to buy one when this lottery ticket hits. I'll also keep enough of a bank roll to get the tow boat out for righting assistance for that brief second when JC and Kenny loose focus. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Some points about the Statue Race.

The statue race is unique because you ARE racing in controlled water.. its the harbor. The RC30 flipped and became a hazzard to navigation so the coasties were involved.. AND the RC 30 is supposed to have a self righting system.. and I was told by the crew that it broke in the crash... (something about a tube that I did not quite follow).


And yes, I am sure the RC is concerned about the saftey of the sailors... but concern for and responsibility for are different.
BTW
What's the conversation... Coastie WHY are you holding a race... its windy out here?.... RC.. Yes... we are holding a race because its windy! Coastie... Stop the race because boats have crashed! RC... How do you propose I stop the race... The sailors race at their discression not mine... What do you want me to do? Coastie... but but but..

I agree with you completely that we must act responsibly or we risk a lot of good will. So I think the discussion is informative and clarifys your thinking (certainly my thinking on the issues)

When would you have the RC cancel a leg of a distance race because of too much wind or seas?

CRAC sets it up so that the sailors vote and the majority rules.... not the RC decides. Then each skipper can decide for himself.

Mark

I think we're pretty much in agreement here.

Jake lets take this a little further. The argument would be that the boats are stable as long as they don't flip, mono's are stable as long as the keel stays on! A valid point can be made for most anything.

The issue is that the boats are being pushed extra hard and being sailed on the edge. With the power of the rigs and narrow beam (relative) I can see how this happens. My Stiletto is 14' wide but also 6' shorter. I feel the beam to width ratio is proportionate for its stability. Its also relative as to how much risk you are willing to take for speed. My first boat (TheMightyHobie18), I sailed/raced with my girlfriend/wife for 12+ years. Never flipped with her on it, made for a good relationship. On the other hand, my first race with my nephew we went over big time. Its all in how you push the boat/test your limits!

So my answer is you want to push it hard, make it wider. Otherwise stay as is and take your chances.

JMO,

Clayton

Not totally true. In at least one of them under main and jib only, the main was manned and released. The jib wasn't, however.

You can always blame the sailors. However, the capsize record is what it is - either other multis have infinitely better sailors driving them, or this is a boat that requires more attention at the helm. A good portion of the R33 crashes have been with experienced drivers.

I never said Randy was some rookie on his first sail, but I think you will agree that on boats as powered up as these [censored] can happen rapidly, such as the main sheet wrapping itself around the traveler. I'm here to tell you that has caused myself and crew to do some synchronized diving on several occasions if you’re not paying attention. How many times have you had to dump the main to keep the boat upright in a big hammering gust? On these boats, without being able to self-right, every sheet needs to be hand held to prevent this type of occurrence, just like the main sheet on a beach cat. Hell I’ve had the boat flip in 8 knots when driving with my head in the boat or up my a##. These boats with such a big stick and sail plan would go over in less under the same circumstance.

Don't get me wrong, I think the boats are way cool and would love to hitch a ride on one sometime, I just think they need to work out a way to right the boat in a flip. The mast needs to float to prevent a turtle for one thing, and then devise a way to get it back up on its own. Maybe use a chute like a big righting bag around a winch or something similar.



Edit: What do you think the chances of having the top post on two pages in the same thread. I think I'm going to play the Lotto tonight. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

...that one 'bad apple' is poisoning the barrel for all of us multihullers.

The seaworthiness of the boat is NOT the issue.

It's the possibility of multihulls being banned from racing that is the rub.

Get it?

Here we are, trying to get multihulls generally accepted, and it's like, a step backwards. K?

FYI, from the F-boats list:

There is a lot of inside stuff and possible personal agendas inside LBYC. But, a few things should be noted.
the ORCA fleet has been very small (2 or 3 boats, if you don't count the R-33's) for the whole Catalina Island Series......so throwing out all ORCA boats wasn't a big deal for them, since we already dis-qualified the R-33.
We (ORCA), have talked to the other clubs and have NOT gotten a feeling that they will, in any way follow "suit".
I just got off the water racing and the ORCA fleet was the largest in this day race open to all PHRF and ORCA boats.
The sponsoring yacht club loves us and has no intention of cutting out their biggest fleet.
There is a general feedback though, that they are happy ORCA had the guts/courage/sense (?) to dis-qualify the R-33 as an ORCA boat due to it's high rate of capsizing.
ORCA is presently working on a stability rule or guidelines and are involved in discussions as to how the R 33 can change their parameters to avoid capsizing in the future ( more crew, wider beam, shorter mast ??????)............... it will be awhile before it's all sorted out but ORCA has worked very hard to get multihulls accepted in open yacht club races for over 40 years and we don't plan to see our hard work go down the drain.

Mike Leneman
ORCA board member

I'll second that the boat is cool, and I hope it succeeds. And I realize that a powered up multi is going to take more skill to sail safely.

However - although capsize recovery is an admirable goal, on a boat that size I believe they should try to reduce the chance of capsize in the first place. A boat this size going over involves forces and issues that are beyond our experiences in dealing with our beach cats. It ain't the same thing. I'm not saying it has the be safest thing on Earth with the sailors encased in bubble wrap. But I think there are things that could be done to help keep it from going over that would not significantly affect the performance. But so far the response is it's the sailor's fault.

The thing that could be done is exactly the thing that isolates multis from the serious mono racers. That is SPEND MORE MONEY! Granted, by and large, multi folks dont have it like a Farr 40 campaign. But the simplest answer is to build a boat that is both wider and lighter or as light. And what does that require? Lots of carbon fiber. An extra 50 grand or so and no problem, an equally fast boat wider, and with lots more righting moment. Sadly, the money game strikes again.

ironically, the LS32 is not much more expensive than a kitted-out R33.

And its all carbon.

For now....there's this thing that happens in the boat building industry...price creep. The first couple come out really affordable before reality sets in on the builder. Same thing happened to the R33.

This boat's already pretty light - if I remember right the current stock boat is lighter than the turbo carbon version that they had, all due to better construction.

Making it a little wider would not cost that much. But my feeling is that the boat should have a lighter (carbon) stick, that's the only carbon it needs. A heavy tall mast on a narrow boat means the point of no return happens sooner. I would also use an open mesh tramp forward. It would be wetter, but there would be less to catch the wind when it gets underneath the boat as the hull raises.

Adding the width back would make it a little slower in the light stuff, but I suspect it wouldn't hurt speed when the wind came up. A lighter rig would help its speed, especially in choppy conditions. An open mesh tramp forward would not affect speed, although it might make for a wetter ride. None of these things would break the bank. Given the price of the boat now, it should come with a carbon stick anyway IMO.

When I win the lotto, those are the mods I'd make to mine (if the Lightspeed somehow didn't tempt me away... <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> )

Don't the cats that go around the world throttle back at some point?
Where is that point?
Perhaps the R33's want more speed over reason like beachcats?

Sould a mast float be required for offshore cats?

Bull! <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Monohull people are always looking for reasons to bar multihulls. At Key West Week they allowed multihulls for the first time. During the regatta a port tack monohull hit and sunk a catamaran on starboard. The administration immediately blamed it on the catamaran because they sail strange courses. Hmmm! But the cat was sailing upwind, zigging and zagging just like a monohull. They went on to ban multihulls from the regatta, even without a reason to do so.
As for mast floats, we had a MacGregor 36 cat that had a big float on top. It was very aerodynamic and certainly did not hamper speed. We were faster than Macs without the float. Also, the boat had a waterbag system. While on its side you used the spinnaker pole to put the bag out away from the bottom of the boat and the jib sheet around a winch to right it. We never went over, but the previous owner said it really worked.

"

As someone who has has worked with aligning racing and Club insurance, there is not any discussion about what type of boats are racing, just the fact that someone IS racing drives up the liability cost. And here in South carolina we do have to obtain a permit from the Dept of Natural Resources to race on ANY body of water. If you do not have the permit on the race committee boat, then EVERYONE participating in the race is subject to $500 fine, more for the organizers. You better look into your states regulations before you decide to organize a race.

No matter what you race, whether it be bicycles to airplanes there is always an inherent risk. People can be prone to making poor judgements when it comes to pushing the limits of themselves, or their equipment when in the heat of battle so to speak. The ones who don't push the envelope die off in animosity, while those strive for that little extra are the ones who make a name for themselves. Moral of the story is that things happen. Cars crash, boats flip, and toast will always land jelly side down when dropped. If you're one a member of the elite that can take a 100k worth of boat out and not really care about what happens, either because of dangerous conditions or a dangerous lack of experience, then more power to you. It isn't the place for others to decide what is too dangerous, or what is should be considered calous behavior.

It is absolutely the place for race committees/organizers. They have to deal with the fall out, success or failure of the event, and potential liability.

That is the problem, liability for the race organizers and rescue boats when someone "Pushing the limit" goes over the edge, then blames everyone else for their mishap and sues all parties, to include boat manufacturer (remeber why Hobie had to make the Comp Tip masts??). That is why the insurance is so high for racing.