F16 alternative

Since we are constantly being badgered on the F16 forum by some of you F18 sailors, I think it's time to return the favor.

The F16 offers very nearly the same performance as the F18. The biggest difference being that the F18 can carry more weight.

The F16 is more versatile, so, if it happens that you like your F18 but can't find consistent crew, you might want to consider the F16. There are several makes to choose from and, unlike the F18 class, you will find the F16s very welcoming.

Pete I agree with all of your statements except that the F18 does not welcome new sailors. Can you give a reason or is that comment just to get attention.

Poor choice of words on my part. I'm sure you would welcome any new F18 sailor.

The F18 class has not been as open to participation by the F16 class as I would like and I think it's bad for the sport as a whole.

As an example, in '08 I took a week of vacation to work the Alter Cup. That year it was sailed on F18s. I volunteered primarily to help out my club, GYC, who was the host. Still, as an F16 sailor I saw it as an opportunity to help another fleet, catamaran sailing in general, and "The Cup" specifically.

I do not see this philosophy shared by the F18 class. At the recent F16 Nationals, F18s were specifically invited yet only four attended.

Since that time, I have heard (unsubstantiated) rumors that our event was the target of a specific boycott and that it was slandered as an "unfriendly" regatta. Perhaps you can shed some light on this matter? Either dispel the rumors, or cite a source so that I can rebute the allegations directly. There was nothing unfriendly about the event, it was well managed and well attended.

Pete,

I was at the 08 Altercup and you guys did a great job hosting. Thanks for your help. I don't see why the type of cat you sail has anything to do with helping your club that was hosting the AC that was sailed on F18's. I bet that some different type of cat owners helped when the AC was on F16's should they dislike the F16?.

I don't know anything about the F18's being invited to a F16 regatta. When was it ? Where was it? How did you advertise it ?

You have this backwards. But, I would like to hear an answer, why should "they" dislike the F16?

F18s have always been invited to GYC regattas. The regatta in question was held at GYC in April and advertised through all the usual channels. In the past that amount of notice has produced a significant F18 presence. This year only 1 F18 was not a GYC member. Perhaps you should ask them why. They may be able to shed more light on the poor turnout.

Pete

I really don't know who them is. I can only speak for myself and I don't dislike the F16's and have friends that sail them. I did not hear of your regatta and even if I did I more than likely would not have come not because of the F16's just it is a 13hour drive each way and that is too far for a weekend regatta.

Using you thoughts I could say that F16's don't like other cat sailors. Why where there only a few F16's at Spring Fever. I think there was around 80 boats and only a few F16.

How did I let myself get sucked in. Pete you are the master of conflict.

I am not. But I am tired of getting kicked around. Expect to see me here often.

I don't sneak around and slander people behind their backs. I don't think you do either, but there are members of your class that do. Expect me to confront this at it's source.

In my humble opinion the low F18 turnout at the GYC Multihull Regatta (which the F16 Nationals was a part of) had more to do with the fact that the GYC regatta was held the week after Spring Fever (which was also the F18 Southeastern Championships). The close proximity of these two races also probably had something to do with the low turnout of the F16s at Spring Fever.

Like most people who have to work to support our sailing habit, you have to prioritize your time off and select regattas carefully. As an F18 sailor, I chose Spring Fever (F18 Southeastern Championships). My participation on Saturday and Sunday of the GYC regatta was due only to the fact that I live 10 minutes from GYC and didn't have to travel.

Pete, I am not privy to the "unsubstantiated rumors" that you are referring to, but I'm sure you have an idea of who you want to target. Why not target them directly instead of going after the entire class?

It's your class and your business, I shouldn't have to take care of it. In any case, it affects the relationship between the two classes, you folks need to decide which path you take.

Did you find the event unfriendly?

As others have posted - You have some valid points but having lurked thru no end of ****storms over the F16, your claim here is open to debate.

Tiger Mike

There is no need for a debate, either the F18 class is open to sailing with other classes or it isn't.

The **** storms surrounding the F16 class, more often than not, are started by outsiders and dumped on the class.

In any case, let's do this over here for a change.

Is this S Storm over the adding of the F-16 to Racine this year?

Pete - Forgive me, but I don't understand what you feel you have to take care of in regards to the F18 class? I was simply offering up an explanation as to why the turnout at both regattas was low for each class, respectively. Did I find the GYC event unfriendly? No, I always enjoy regattas hosted by GYC. My only suggestion for the regatta was for it to include the scoring option to sail only two days (like the Spring Fever scoring) for those classes not competing for a National Championship. However, this is not a class issue, but a decision of the Organizing Authority.

I get the impression that your entire purpose of starting this thread is just to create a rift between the two classes. I honestly think that there is more underlying your intentions here and I would suggest that you take this up with the individuals involved and not make this a class thing. It will benefit neither class to continue these unfounded attacks and accusations. We should be fostering positive relations in order to continue the growth of sailing.

Pete,

As long as I have been sailing in the F18 class (I think around 2001) the only F18 only regattas that I know of are the one championship that is held each year. That is one regatta which is a week long just for F18's hosted by a club that puts in a bid for the event. Like your club did for the Altercup. I believe that most other cats do the same for there championship the F16, H16,H20,TheMightyHobie18,H17,A cat, N20,F17. Some of those classes have joined forces because of low turnout. So to answer your question yes the F18 is open to sailing with other classes and has except for the one championship each year which is there premier event.

Pete you might want to check the events link on this site because based on your reasoning the Waves, H16,H17,H14,H20 don't like the F16 either because they did not invite the F16 class to there Championship. You have a lot of typing to do tonight on the other forums. I have to go get some popcorn.

No thanks, I'm interested in how the F18 class feels.

Pete,
I guess you did not take the time to read the post and check on the history of the F18 class.

Here I go again be sucked in, man you are good at causing conflict. This might help you if you have a problem with someone or you feel that you have been wronged it is better to take it up with that person in private and not on a forum.

I won't be answering any more of your post unless you have something positive to say.

+1

hi pete,

i'm the one posting the discussion on making F18's lighter. i sail with different crews and often think that together with female crew the F18 is quite heavy to handle one the beach. therefore i'm very interested in your claim that F16's deliver nearly the same performance than F18's. i would welcome a lighter cat. two years ago i encountered a group of F16's (mainly Blades) and it struck me how big the speed gap was between my Capricorn and the Blades (in favor of my F18). i've also read the successes of the Viper and am wondering of the F16 can really come close to an F18, after the obvious development the F16's have gone through?

Hi Max: I'm having a little trouble following you but I think the answer is yes. The F16 has very similar performance to the F18.

If your Cap was a lot faster, my presumption is that you are a better sailor. I often sail on the same course with F18s and the better sailors always win, boat for boat.

http://www.sail-world.com/USA/Belgi...---Sailing-Olympian-extends-record/69628

http://www.vvwheist.be/component/co...mei-open-belgisch-kapioenschap-multihull

I treat people the way I am treated. I found this in the backwaters of the web, a week after the regatta.

It's pure bs, that I was never contacted about in any way. I certainly never received a request, from anyone, for three day scoring.

"Okay Tim I get it's an F16 only event, so why pretend you want other fleets at your regatta. Just say it's a closed regatta and be done with it, don't go out of your way to make it difficult for those that can only support a weekend event. I do find it interesting that a fleet that demands to be included in every other fleets events/starts that you can't be accommodating at all when it comes to other fleets, and we don't even want to start with you, we just want a standard Saturday start time and 3 day scoring (which aint rocket science).

The GYC board (which Pete and Stephan are a member of) were asked about doing 3 day scoring and they simply said no. Besides why would I approach them again regarding this issue? Why would their position be different now, it's not an abstract concept. Stephan and Pete have done a couple of regatta's before so I'm pretty sure they know the routine and I'm sure they are aware that a 10AM start on the day expecting teams of new arrivals is a bit unusual. Not to mention that some of the most vicious criticisms regarding regatta management and for that matter organized sailing all together have come from Mr. Pollard. I guess I expected something a bit more inclusive and accommodating, because that is after all what the F16 fleet expects from every other fleet."- David Ingram. You can find the full thread here. http://www.1design.net/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=1598

I deny having ever said anything "vicious" but I readily admit defending myself when attacked.

If Ding had had the decency to contact me with his concerns, I might have been able to do something about. As it turns out, I was contacted by a F16 sailor about the 10 o'clock start; I immediately asked the PRO for a delayed start and my request was declined.

I exchanged a series of cordial emails with David about a month before the event. At that time I asked for his help with weighing and measuring. He declined, with good reason, and I made appropriate, alternative arrangements. There has been no further contact between us. Then I found the above diatribe.

The point is, you were all welcome at the event. There was never any intention to exclude anyone.

Pete you are correct sir that post was out of line and I also apolgized for my comments publicly in the same thread, which I have quoted below.

I've also sent you my cell number and asked you to call if you have issues with me. I look forward to speaking with you. If anyone else would like to talk to me directly please let me know.

Apology accepted. I'll see you at Kelly Park, it should be a good weekend.

The volunteer corp at GYC is grossly overworked. We're going to have to do fewer and smaller events.

My apologies as well.

The only problem with the F16 is that it will cost about $40,000 when people start building it to the rule. As soon as you start to hit critical mass that will happen and all existing boats will be obsolete. So in that regard I’d say the F18 is a good alternative.

The boats are all built to the rule. We hit critical mass some time ago and the last time I checked the price was around $16k.

Inside the rule is not the same as to the rule.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UFzZ9D4WAD8&feature=related

Hell it's your class so you guys do what you want. You asked the question and I've taken the time to give you my answer.
Best of luck to you and the class.

Thank you.

A bit less. I've been exploring it, and it'd be about $35k to get a Viper-like design, (big volume+stiff), to weight. Cheaper if you can order more than one.

But there is always the possibility of it reaching that $40k number. Gotta pay to play.

Stop propelling BS about the F16's guys.

The fact that Greg has CHOSEN to build the Viper INSIDE the F16 class rules and not ON the F16 class rules has nothing to do with whether this is possible of not for a price tag of sub 20.000 bucks.

19.800 USD will get you a minimum weight carbon masted fully race rigged (Pentex, carbon boards etc) 2-up Falcon F16 in the USA.

Source : http://www.falconmarinellc.com/falcon_pricing_2009.pdf

All the rest is just ignorance.

That is all I wanted to say and I'll step out of the discussion now. (Pete, what are you exactly doing here ?)

Wouter

Ignorance is beleiving current F16s are built anywhere near to the rule.

A full carbon, prepreg autoclave full volume stiff F16 will cost significantly more than an A Class and would be superiour to all current F16s in the market.

Seems everybody and anybody in the sailing industry (other than F16 sailors) know this.

Cation, if you want to bring the fight here, you may have more than just F16 sailors posting comments about this.

Stephen,

We are NOT going to have that discussion here on the F18 forum.

Period.

Wouter

Of course in the F16 Forum the arguement would be a little bias. Care to take it to the open forum or even SA?

Since it seems you know quite a bit about all of the F16's being built right now...

In what aspects(all aspects) are NONE of the F16's being built, NOT to the F16 rules?

BTW, I'm not picking on you, you just happened to make this statement and I was curious as to what you see. (Notice the smiley face)

Mike

Viper could be lighter. Carbon mast to reduce weight aloft, carbon hulls and beams also to reduce weight.

Other F16s could also go down all carbon route, (alloy and glass are second grade substitutes). Bigger carbon beams, reinforced beam mounts both to create a stiffer again platform, more hull volume.

Personally beleive AHPC have nailed the specs and pricing on the Viper as a stand alone class. As an F16, it looks to be the quickest product out there whilst carrying too many KGs for the class. A lighter verson of the same product would off course be quicker..... But likely priced out of the market place.

You forgot to mention why the Viper is basically over weight, its not the mast nor the hulls which is the real concern. AHPC choose for commercial economy ( cost to the bottom line on the balance sheet )to use the beams rudders and all ancillaries from its bigger sister the F18 and by design choice, to have larger bouyancy ( big hulls )than the other F16's.

If dedicated F16 suitable components had been used then it would be similar in weight to most of the earlier generation designs ie around 115 - 120 kilos.

The Viper is an interesting boat and must be being looked at by many of the lighter F18 crews, it already seems on a par performace wise with the F18's, has a better handicap and best of all, can be beach handled with ease by two crew.

So, it still comes down to weight?

Wasn't the Taipan down to min weight? If that's the case and the Taipan was so good, why didn't everyone build something just like the Taipan? For that matter, use all of the parts off of the Taipan like the beams and stuff, and then just make the Hulls with more volume? Why didn't that happen? Isn't the Taipan still being produced? So the beams should still be readily available, correct? So, other than the cost savings of using the F18 beams and parts, just use most of the parts of the Taipan. I would think AHPC would have thought of that.

Why didn't they do that then?


I'm not bashing the Taipan BTW or AHPC...

Just trying to have a good conversation...

Mike

I have to say that the Viper can be handled by one person on the beach. Yes, if the sand is a little soft, or there is a nice little hill that I have to go up, It's a little hard to push it by myself. But most of the time, I have no problems handling the boat by myself. I weigh about ~170lbs or ~80kgs for you metric folks.

Mike

Mike,

I'm not knocking the weight of the Viper at all, just saying that with better design and dedicated parts it could be on a par weight wise with many of the existing F16's.

Either by design or by commercial risk aversion ( using existing parts to limit development costs and thats exactly the right route to go in my opinion ) the Viper has fallen into a real sweet spot for its handicap, good and hope all the new owners will enjoy what is obviously a cool boat.

My guess is that should a new Nacra or Hobie suddenly appear thats 16ft long and down around the 120 kilos then AHPC would immediately issue upgraded components to lower the weight. Nothing wrong in that in my opinion just a MK2 version.

don't worry, I'm just making conversation.

Trying to see what everyone's thoughts are.

This comment is not so much ignorance as it seems paranoia.
From a current builder, put a carbon stick on a Falcon and it is min weight. I would figure that makes it at the rule and far under 40K. (Around 20 I have been quoted) I am sure if you brought a 40K check to any builder they would be more than happy to build you something though.

Carbon is not legal in the F18, but it is possible to build a full pregpreg autoclaved F18 which would also be much more expensive and stiffer than the current boats. Why would you not fear this? And how from actual experience can you possibly project that any addition of carbon or expensive production technology will obsolete any boat.

Marstrom builds an all carbon autoclaved boat. They are expensive but has it “taken over” the class – NO. The new Ashby boat (as well as the Flyer II) do not even have carbon hulls, they are Kevlar. Has this made the boats uncompetitive – NO. Is there any huge difference in costs between the brands made with carbon or not – not so you would notice.

A landed Ashby A in the US is right around 30K. You can buy a full carbon – under min weight - Falcon for quite a bit less (~5K)than that, and you have a lot more kit on the F16.


Sorry to get drug into this thread but untruths and exaggerations that espouse doom and gloom or bash each other do not do either of our classes or cat sailing in general any good.

Pete, WTF were you thinking with this post on the F18 site?

Well, we had some F18 sailors of note coming over to the F16 forum, giving vent to their views, I figured turn about was fair play.

But, the point has been made. Time to go home.

Thank you, five minutes is up.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=teMlv3ripSM

Ok, someone fill me in.........

The viper is how heavy? and the class minimum is what?

No I did not forget to mention beams. If they were carbon also, retaining the same or more stiffness, then that would be an advantage. Extra volume is design choice because it performs better. If you were to build a Blade or Falcon with the same volume, then it would be heavier. Fact is the fat boy Viper is heavier than curent F16s and is competitive if not quicker.



The Taipan 4.9 is OD for starters, meaning it does not have to compete with market competition within the class. Secondly, the Taipan’s hull volume was too small, the platform not rigid enough to compete in the F16 class and the beam is also narrower then class allows. Increasing the beam length, diameter, reinforcing the beam seats for the extra load and twist for the kite all adds weight. Also remember the Taipan, whilst still a great boat is an old design now (about 22 + years old)



AHPC have just built a boat that sails closer to it’s rating (Viper rating) then other F16s to their rating, thus allowing it to compete against a class that should be quicker.



I would bet they would produce a 125kg boat in line with the Viper, compete head to head with them and develop their own class which would be very similar to the F16, be better marketed, more numerous and active on the race curcit. F18 and F18HT.



Kevlar would be another expensive option. Are the Ashby boats any cheaper then the carbon ones. Why have classes such as the F18 and tornado outlawed the use of Carbon and Kevlar in all but foils, tiller and tiller exentions and fittings. $$$$$$$$. But I am sure they are mistaking.



Brett Goodall has posted a great post summarizing why it costs more for a volume manufacturer. You can do a search or I will find it for you later. Research and development to produce a boat that performs as close as possible to it’s rating, plus supplying a quality product with warranty costs $$$$$.

Myself personnaly, I am currently a Tornado sailor (crewing for a friend) and will be purchasing a new boat soon. Could be an F16 (Viper would ne nice) or may be a taipan 4.9 which will be fitted with a kite for non Tiapan events.

A quote from the F16 forum that sums it up.

AH but the Viper is the first F16 / 104 boat to be regularly put through its paces by Olympic quality sailors. Like all rating systems only the best sailors should achieve the theoretical rated handicap.

On the club scene all the F16 designs are pretty even with no one design ahead of the other whether in one or two handed crew mode, even the oldest designs are still hanging in there with the winner all ways the best nut on the tiller.

Class weight is 107 kilos for 2 handed boats. Most new designs are at that or around that weight using mainly glass construction.

Anyway its been fun to be part of the F18 Forum for 5 minutes, interesting to read on this forum the the wildcat structural problems, I guess all classes whether light or heavy can be beset with problems of one sort or another.

Stiffness in structures can lead to more problems than solve, glider design ( who probably lead the world in composite construction ) have now gone away from very stiff structures, it was leading to structural failure at key points ( stress fractures ) and many pilots felt that they were taking such a physical battering, they couldn't cope physically over longer flights. Food for thought and I would guess the super stiff boats must be nearing this point. I'll start a thread over on the F16 forum to see what we all think of this very interesting subject.

All Aussie Blade,s are built to the minimum weight. They are all Glass/ Kevlar just like the Taipans.

So I don't see the problem. If these guys can do it why cant everyone else.

A few years ago when I had my F18 there were guy's in Europe that put forward a proposal to reduce the minimum weight of the F18 to 140kg.

Unfortunately for the class it was rejected.

Stephen,

You are so full of BS !




Last time I checked the Tornado's also have carbon masts.

Wouter

Note to everyone involved in this discussion.

We are poluting the F18 forum. This is not the place for this thread. So stop feeding the troll.

Wouter

How about an answer 1st Wouter?

You ar right, I slipped up on that and should have known, but it was a minor slip...... how about addressing the rest of my post before calling BS........ Or is it you that is full of BS.

In 2 up mode, the Viper's weight is 125kg whilst F16 class is 107kg. Note, the Taipan is 102kg without spinnaker gear, much smaller volume hulls and tiny beams.

All the other stuff is BS as well.

The Aussie Blade and Falcon hull have basically the same overall volume as the Viper. But more importantly they have as good as identical surface area which is the only meaningful measurement when deailing with hull weights. Additionally, I've upgraded a Taipan design to F16 specs myself (from the bottom up) and what you call tiny beams still result in platform stiffness comparable to a Nacra F18/Hobie Tiger. You make it sound like I'm (and the quoted F18 sailors) are sailing a noodle when that is simply not an accurate desciption of reality.

There is more but I'm not going to endless repeat all that stuff, because you have proven to simply ignore everything that is said and restate the same falsehoods over and over again; often only days later.

The end of the discussion is the fact that any US buyer can get himself a class minimum weight Falcon F16 when ordering the carbon mast upgrade; setting him back LESS then US$ 20K. A far cry from the unfounded 35K quotes propelled by some to scare the hens.

In your case (being in Australia) the counterproof is provided by the Aussie Blade F16 as made by http://www.formulacatamarans.com/

European customers have other options such as the Stealth F16 as well.


Therefore, your claims are based on speculation only whereas my statements are based on ACTUAL boats and quotes. If I didn't know any better I would think that you are one of those leaches also known as "stock market trader going short". You have already created a BP like oil spill on the F16 forum and now you are going full throttle at poisoning the F18 forum as well.

I hope you are really proud of yourself.

Wouter

That's absurd. who the hell is going to buy a boat that is 20% above the class minimum weight? The next manufacturer to enter the class is just going to produce a lighter boat.

That hasn't happened yet...

And,


If you'd look at some of the race results(discounting the experts racing), the boat weight doesn't matter.

With today's design's, the weight of the boat and crew doesn't matter as much as it used to such as the Hobie 16.

Mike

BTW, a lot of people have bought a boat that's 20% above the min weight.

And, there is a boat that's just as new as the Viper and it's a little lighter...AND it hasn't taken the class by storm on finishes as people would suggest.


Again,

It comes down to the person sailing the boat. To many people have it in their heads that a few kilo's makes a BIG difference...


Heck, go look at the Alter cup placement that just happened today.

Some of the lighter teams finished in the middle of the pack and the heavier teams finished higher up. So, what's the problem?


Mike

Actually the preceding four builders (Taipan, Stealth, US Blade, Aussie Blade) were producing lighter boats already. The Falcon launched 1 year after the Viper is also build lighter and the newly launched Aquaraptor is also build lighter.

The Viper, while being a very good boat performance wise, is actually the odd one out.

As a result some people (non F16 class members by the way) now want the F16 class to adjusted its rules to suit the Viper and basically outlaw the other 6 F16 designs. They do so by a slander campaign on the internet that has now unfortunately founds its way to this F18 forum. I have no idea why they feel that they can be successful at that. I am sorry that this spill-over to the F18 forum has occured.

Wouter

I fully agree with that statement.

We are seeing a rather flat dependence of performance upon overall weight. A few kg either way is simply too small to result in any measureable speed difference. Of course 10 times "a few kg" resulting in a difference of say 50 kg does eventually give rise to a measureable difference but the Taipan F16, Stealth F16, US Blade F16, Aussie Blade F16, Falcon F16 and Aquaraptor F16 are no where near that much apart. These boats are all enclosed in a range of different boat weights spanning only 5 kg and that is simply too small to matter.

I also think it to be really funny that sailors will think nothing of say 30 kg differences in crew weight and then fuzz about 3 to 5 kg differences in boat weight.

Wouter

Would you mind defining "they" for me?

I think every one needs to go sailing!

To be honest the F18 and the F16 are both cool boats, I think the viper is a really sick boat (some of the other f16's lack the sexy look a bit lol)

We are all cat sailors, we should all join toghether and not fight each other but beat the crap out those half boat sailors?

I like that IDEA!!!!