New weight categories, effective now.

Hi Folks -

Another issue that I haven't seen discussed (which surprises me) is the new weight classification that came out of the World Council meeting in Erquy.



This rule is in effect for the Championship regatta in Racine.

The minutes haven't been finalized so only those that were there know about it.

Ah. Well, now it is out there. Those of you making plans for Racine, make note. Much more headache for the folks at weigh-in than for any competitor. Guess we need to update the weight chart inside the scales case. ;-)

Why more head ache at the weigh in?
Competitors register, get weighed and the the weights are posted on the notice board. What's different?
Its up to the sailors to decide what size rig they are using and carry the right amount of lead.
The new ruling just means that less crews have to use the small sails

So a 130kg crew has to carry 12,5 KGs of lead when using the large jib+spin? (135-130+7,5).

Yes.

Hi Paul -

Maybe just more headache for me, then. I had the "old" way sorted out in my mind, and my neurological pathways are becoming calcified. From another angle, someone who shows up with 12kgs will have to be creative to meet the rule on placement...

I raced for a couple of seasons at 130kg on the small sails very competitively. I disagreed with the reasons presented for the change, but thems the breaks - the vote is now history, and barring any aberrant race results in the next year or so, this will probably become permanent.

Do I have this Correct?

Weight(Kg)/Sail/Corrector Weights
115-130/small/half the difference between weight and 130 Kg
130-140/small/none
130-135/large/half the difference between weight and 135 + 7.5
135-115/large/half the difference between weight and 150
150+/large/none

hi guys--

I'm still wrapping my head around this and hoping someone can clarify.I've reread this about a dozen times and for the life of me can't figure out what the point is in introducing the 135 kg threshold. My math sucks, but can't you just collapse both of these bullet points into one:

Crew between 130 kg and 150 kg may use the large jib and large spinnaker and then shall carry extra weight equal to half the difference between their actual weight and 150 kg.

Why bother with the 130-135 interval? Doesn't it all amount to the same thing? What am I missing?

I'd like to get confirmation on summary like rhodysail. Here's what I'm reading though:

Weight — Jib/Spinnaker Size — Corrector Weight

< 115 — You don't sail.
115-130 — small sails — half of distance to 130
130-140 OPTION 1 — small sails — no weight
130-140 OPTION 2 — large sails — half of distance to 150
140-150 — large sails — half of distance to 150
> 150 — large sails — no weight

C.3.2 (b) (2) has not been stricken from the rules. The revised C.3.2 (b) (3)—the meeting minutes mistakenly identify the changed rule as C.3.2 (a) (3), but it's obvious what they mean—just opens up an alternative for the 130-140 interval (with a bunch of unnecessary gobbledegook about 135...).

Non?

Never mind. I guess my English sucks too. I'm thinking about what it might cost me to get a secondhand Tiger. So I'm not up-to-date on the class rules. And being on the light end of the scale I'm trying to understand whether I need to factor in the cost of a brand new small jib and kite.

This thread suggests that small jib & kite are no longer options unless crew weight comes in under 130 (i.e., the new proposed rule really replaces C.3.2 (b) (2 and 3), even though that's not exactly what the minutes say. The breakdown is then:

< 115 — You don't sail.
115-130 — small sails + up to 7.5 kg of lead
130-135 — large sails + 7.5-12.5 kg of lead
135-150 — large sails + up to 7.5 kg of lead
> 150 — large sails — no weight

That is a headache.

Rhodysail has part of it wrong. Crew 130 -135 has to carry the actual weight between 130 and 135 (not half) and then 7.5 kg. If you weigh 130kg you need to add 5kg+7.5kg=12.5 to use the large sails or use the small sails and no weight.

• Crew between 130 kg and 135 kg may use the large jib and large spinnaker and then shall carry extra weight equal to the difference between their actual weight and 135 kg + 7,5 kg.

Hi Pinax -

The rule was passed partly on the idea that lighter crews buying used boats (with big sails) did not have the budget to buy new small sails. You always have the option to use small sails at ANY weight category.

One of the reasons the US Class opposed this rule in July was because it adds confusion... obviously so...

Thanks, John. Hence the repeated "may use" instead of "shall use"... Hah! It's all crystal now!

Bump...

Is this still in effect for the 2012 F18 Worlds in Long Beach, California?

After last weeks racing at the worlds I'm wondering if the crew weights are of any benefit at all to the class.

How so, Bob?

The weight advantage of crews is repeatedly reflected in the results during drifters. Its driving combined crew weights to minimum weights. Most I have spoken with think the changes suck.

In fact, is there any way to get the crew weights from the world's? The sample size may be large enough to correlate with wind speed to see just how bad the big teams are getting hit in the light stuff

... just out of curiousity: when you are at the border between small and large sails, are you allowed to change the sails with the appropriate weights during a regatta? Like small sails on a windy day, large sails at low winds?

As a heavy team we suffered the first day and when the wind piped up we started making up places.
Day one was light and shifty we were 2nd or third from the back in 56-53-53.
Day two 57 lighter then the wind built and we were 53-46.
Day three wind was on we were 46 and 25th when we bit it downwind on leg 5 of 7.
At 370 the wind is my friend.
I was also carrying 6.1 kilos because my platform is light. There is a rule that could change. I'm already carrying 40 pounds extra can I get a break on the 13 pounds for the light boat.

We have a complete measurer's report from Worlds that includes boat and crew weights along with correctors. I'll figure out how to post it.

As far as changing sails during an event - verboten. Can't do that without damage that is shown to the Jury, and they approve/disapprove equipment changes. That was seriously glossed over in Long Beach. We're not even supposed to change equipment in a weekend regatta.

We weighed in at 140 kgs. 10 kgs underweight. We showed our most consistent results in the gold fleet on the windiest day. Granted it wasn't overly windy so I'm not sure that it is a great indicator of light weight crews in windy conditions. Never more than about 18 knots. If it had blown 25 we probably would have gone backwards upwind. Just not enough skill to compensate for the lighter weight. We also suffered in the light wind races on the last two days thanks to poor decision making. Our weight savings was not close to offsetting poor tactics and decision making. That's my two cents.

1st Place - FRA 36. Boat, 177kg, crew 158kg.
2nd Place - NED 2. Boat 180kg, crew 160kg.
3rd Place - SUI 1. Boat 180kg, crew 160kg.
4th Place - NED 007. Boat 187kg, crew 159kg.
5th Place - NED 1933. Boat 179kg, crew 161kg.
6th Place - NED 3. Boat 180kg, crew 155kg.
7th Place - AUS 888. Boat 187kg, crew 160kg.
8th Place - SWE 7. Boat 180kg, crew 154 kg.
9th Place - FRA 004. Boat 187kg, crew 158kg.
10th Place - USA 11. Boat 177kg, crew 154kg.

It should be evident that no top teams sailed light. In fact, you don't get any crew corrector weight until 13th (BEL 888, crew 149kg). The top USA team carrying crew weight was USA 90 (crew 142kg, 33rd Place). Only one team sailed with the small sail plan (USA 1238, crew 133kg, 45th Place, Silver Fleet).

As for conditions, we had mostly light to moderate breeze. We had one race of 19 knots sustained. We had two races at less than 8 knots sustained. We had a variety of sea states.

Bottom line for me - you can't sail light in this class.

I absolutely agree with John- being light is a disadvantage in this class, especially on long courses and reach legs. We sailed worlds at 142 kg and with big sails. While we did pretty well on the light first day, and held on to our spot in Gold fleet on the second day, racing in breeze in the Gold fleet was very difficult. I feel that we learned a lot about how to depower and put the bow down while in Long Beach, but still lacked upwind boatspeed.

After watching Robbie Daniels and Chris Prentice get third at a light air Canadian Nationals, I believe that in very light breeze (both hulls in the water), being heavy doesn't hurt.

Where being light does help is in marginal conditions where a light team can power up and fly a hull earlier than the heavier teams, but this is a pretty narrow band.

If we sail worlds next year, I definitely want to be heavier!

Thanks, John...but...
I appreciate the effort, but such a summary provides no real correlate with respect to overall performance and wind conditions. The data you provided is standard deviation of only +/- 2.7 Kg on an n=10 without any variable correlate of 'wind speed'.

To do the analysis properly, all races andall competitors along with wind conditions need to be evaluated relative to overall weight of all crews. In addition, we would bin each characteristic with overall skill, say intenational rankings vs the also-rans. Second, this would have to be compared with combined crew weights approaching 180 Kg (in extremum) to differentiate whether or not the boat can be sailed both heavy and competively in lighter conditions to evaluate the 'treatment effect' of added weight. Otherwise, your posted answer is only a 'fait accomplis', and unsubstantiated by fact from the standpoint of the original question.

Or you could sail a bit in the class at a variety of weights on several platforms and in a variety of conditions and venues with a variety of skippers and begin to draw some conclusions. That's more fun, IMO.

Rex, You seem to have already decided that light teams have an unfair advantage. If you have the inclination, I'm happy to email you the regatta report from the measurer (Excel format) and the complete Sailwave file, from which you can glean the recorded wind speeds. However, it would be pretty easy to poke holes in any analysis - second-row starts, sea state, fouls and cluttered gates, older v newer sails... the variables are endless, really. I don't have a driving need to persuade you (or anyone else) to agree with my conclusion. The discussion actually makes for good bar-room debriefs.

ps - your edited post is much more conversational. Thanks for taking the edge off.

Unfortunately for me, even though I put on eight pounds for the ABYC event, I felt sluggy and slow - fitness was up, but I felt much more agile at a trimmer weight during a season on the H16. I can't get much bigger, and it isn't optimal to have 200+ pounds in the skipper position. I think I need to go back to driving. That's the cushy spot on the boat, anyway.

Well I actively try to take the edge off, but when challenged with a BS conclusion, I am paid handsomely and am given latitude to be far less diplomatic with numbers and conclusions with people holding advanced degrees in medicine and biology... I'd gladly take that data and work on it in my spare time for an unbiased opinion.

We are not very good, but at a combined weight of 400+ lbs (...to qualify that, my 19 yo nationally ranked swimming/triathlon champion son and I wear the exact ame sized clothes...), I do question whether heavy teams can be competitive in light air on the F18. Evidence of that remains anecdotal until tested. I wouldn't say it is a conclusion, but I have spoken with 4 experienced heavier teams that feel the rules are geared toward success of teams at the light end of the range. Knowing the relationship is a benefit to the competition of the class, as it will drive enforcement of such things as the oft ignored weigh-ins, and the minimum wind speed criteria for events.

Everybody likes an excuse for why they suck. Don't feel bad, I blame my suckage to a mild level of retardation.

I willingly admit, and have become one with my suckiness. Just forming a rationale for getting out. Too many things stacked against success provides diminishing returns on the value proposition. It's just that basic.

Rex, are you really on a Nacra F18? I'm sure you've seen the leap forward that designs took in about 2005 that has carried through to today... volume has increased dramatically with each iteration and the power in the rig has matched pace. Your team weight on a Tiger would yield very different results than your weight on designs that have come out this year or even last. The incremental improvements are small year-to-year, but cumulatively, they're remarkable. The good part of that is that you don't need a brand new boat to take advantage of increased volume and power for your weight range. Note that teams around 150kg did very well on Tigers at F18 Worlds (IMO).

Que the ratings discussion... yes, Virginia, the rating has stayed the same as the boat has gotten faster over time. Not my fault, and I don't race Portsmouth.

I know the feeling. I tried to bulk up some for ABYC, with limited success. I definitely got stronger, but I think I only added 3 or 4 pounds. Training for the NYC Marathon probably didn't help either....

We race an NF18 Infusion with all the bells and whistles, long boards, new sails, blah, blah, blah. As a team we've gotten better, but as competitive persons in other aspects of life, we simply are not at all competitive on this boat... (and we're kind of getting tired of trying to get there)

If your team is under 150 kg you're already going to be punished for it. Making these guys add corrector weights is just adding insult to injury.

I'm thinking 160 kg is probably the best all around weight.

Welcome to the 5th standard deviation

If you are just looking for an excuse to get out then just do it. Waaaaaaa

Sailing in light air requires a lot of technique to keep your boat moving and reading the course lanes etc. Yes at +400 you likely have a little more work, but anyone can make their boat go in 12 and in the big stuff you have an advantage way above your skill level.
Good finishes when it blows like stink does not mean you area good sailor, just heavy. If you are going to use weight as an excuse, it swings both ways, use it properly

You aren't seriously trying to tell us light air requires more skill than the breeze, are you? Light air sailing aint rocket science and let's be honest when it's patchy it provides a lot more oportunties to get lucky. If you think going downhill heavy in a breeze is easy or doesn't take skill you clearly haven't done it enough. How many people end up on their side in 5 knots? How many people hit the beach because they are out of their element in the light?

Really, a bit more work at 400+? Do you sail at 400+? You have no clue what you're dealing with when you run at 400+ downhill in the breeze and waves. I've sailed heavy and I've sailed light, at the end of the day light is better!

Light air saling is for old men and little girls and it's just something we do to pass the time until the breeze fills in. What self respecting F18 sailor wants to sail in the light? It takes breeze to make our heavy boats go. Let the A-cat sailors sail in the light, F18's want breeze!

Not more skill but skill all the same. Light stuff and heavy stuff both separate out the fleet. (and the top guys still win in both - go figure)
A lot of people in 5 or less hit the beach becuse they are "out of their element"
I know light teams who suck in light air becuse they do not have the skill or patience to do well. They have to admit it. The fat guys hide their poor sailing skills behind the weight excuse. - Just say'in

No doubt sailing light is going to be better, as long as it is not way light which has its own issues. The issue though should be tied in with politics and religion as logic seldom plays in the discussion.

Fat guy! Ding! He called us fat!! An anonymous girly man called us fat!!

Junior, to re-direct your immature, ADD-challenged mind to some facts, few top teams weigh in at 400lbs+. I know of one other, completely dedicated team who are struggling at this weight, and three others who are about in my same boat, who I am always finishing with in competitions. The original question is whether or not *an athletic 400lb team* of combined weight (team that weight-lifts and runs triathlons, bikes, BTW) can be competitive as middling-skilled sailors, or if the platform works against that weight in lighter conditions.

Got it yet?

Yeah...mmmkay...yeah...I've seen that happen exactly **NEVER** times ...

The F18 is no different from any other boat in the fact that certain conditions favor certain crew weights- there is no way around that, it is just physics. Where the good teams win regattas is by staying consistent in the conditions that don't favor them, and absolutely maximizing their performance in 'their' conditions.

One of the most frustrating parts of the worlds for Brooks and I was not taking advantage of the light air last race due to a poor start. It was absolutely our fault for not seizing the opportunity in front of us.

That said, there are certainly weight bands that are good all-around performers, and for the F18 I believe that is in the 150-160kg range. For the East Coast of the US where it is generally moderate breeze, the lower end of that range seems correct. The European teams, and especially the Dutch teams, seemed to sail heavier (160kg) because they spend more time sailing in breeze.

As far as corrector weights, I honestly don't think they make much of a difference.

If you sailed full time at a high level then the competitive weight would get lower as you work out how to sail the boat better in higher winds. The you have an advantage in the lighter stuff and not suffering in the heavier air.

luckily in F18 we are not that serious, so we find that the right weight is somewhere around 150kg.

...exactly where I am trying to square the upsides of practicing vs. the impact of our weight on overall performance. Of course we need to practice...that's a given. We suck. Give the Newtonian realities, I'm more thinking on the return on investment...

As for the correctors the light guys on our beach complain about the fact that the added weight is not 'live', but they are still, (as you know), are awfully fast. The only time we've (*ever*) beaten them racing (count on one hand...err three fingers...) is when it was honking around 15-20, where we were rolled better upwind and then we could lean our heavy butts off the transom going downwind.

hmmm... Must be getting to the end of the sailing season. Fights are starting to break out already. I think I'll pull up a chair and grab a beer. Should be an entertaining winter!

Crap. need a new keyboard. spit coffee all over screen. Best line of the morning Ding!

Does anyone care to fill a newb in on the weigh-in process? AKA is this done in full sailing gear, naked or somewhere in-between?

9/10 I'm carrying corrector weights+large sail plane. Unlike Ding weekly racing for me will be in light air against a few A-Cats so keeping the boat light certainly won't hurt. Any suggestions on where to acquire the corrector slugs that fit on the dolphin striker post?

weigh-ins at worlds were done in shorts and t-shirts. No shoes, hats, wallets, etc. Use dive weights as your corrector weights. It has to be the solid lead weights. Shot-weights are not legal (don't ask me how I know).

Pray tell, why is shot-weight illegal? Unless a hole appears in the weight bag and the stuff leaks out?

You answered your own question. After working weigh in at Worlds I can see how a bag of shot would inexplicably start leaking.

When you are little under weight you could drink a lot of water, or so I've heard.

That's why they have spot checks. You come off the water underweight you could get flicked for the day.

man, you make it sound so....official

Spot checks.
How many spots are you supposed to have? Stripes seem more reasonable. Safety gear,crew weights, boat weights and now spots. You keep up this mandatory spot requirement and you'll kill the class, Ding. F-16 is the future ,ya know. I heard it in Tybee Island,Ga. Back in the day we didn't need any Damn spots. Stripes were good enough for us.