Calling C2 owners

What is your experience after one season on the C2: is this subject of beam slapping downwinds (like on the Capricorn) history?

I can count the number of times I had the back beam slap on the Capricorn over four years on two hands. I'm sure my Euro and Aussie friends sail in bigger seas than I do, but I just never saw the beam height as a real issue.

I felt one slap on the C2 at Worlds. Came close once in San Francisco, and once in Racine. None here at home or in Texas at the Alter Cup in July. Didn't get a full season, but close.

Pardon my ignorance, but just what is 'beam slapping'?

Back beam hitting the crest of the waves.

C2 downwind is a dream, as crew I can say this is the easiest my life has ever been. The cut off back corner, the big Dakine foot strap, the higher back beam, the farther back front beam, the volume up front. This thing makes downwind in waves so much easier. Look at the first two days of the Canadian nationals. The weather was pretty much a F18s worst nightmare, big steep lake waves (boat swallowing waves) with high winds (25 knots ish). After the first downwind the first boats were usually C2s (with the very important exception of Misha in a Tiger and Tripp in an Infusion). Anyone who was there would have a hard time saying we weren't slippery down wind (okay, we aren't exactly light ;-).

I also recently just stepped into a Capricorn again after a season of C2 (an easy switch) and was reminded how much nicer the C2 responds when a puff pushes your leeward bow down, as crew I had to move much more to handle the puffs (on the wire, fore and aft) then I would in the C2. The Cap is an amazing boat, don't get me wrong, but when in "bad F18 conditions" the C2 simply takes you from living in full survival mode to having a blast. Also, the C2 learnt from the modifications all of us were doing to the deck layout / line rigging, so the boat is pretty close to perfect out of the box (always room for tweaking though). It's nice to see a manufacturer adapt / listen to their sailors in this regard.

My experience, just by results at regattas this season and by the feel I get on the boat, all boats have their weaknesses and strengths, but the C2 seems to be the 'easiest' boat to get up to close potential speed by the average sailor, and it keeps you in your comfort zone longer in the weather range then some of the other designs. You put a pro in any boat and they'll kick my but any day (seriously, Misha is one heck of a great sailor and such a great guy), but for the average sailor, I stand by my thoughts, that the C2 is just the nicest boat out their.

(Full disclosure, my skipper and I are AHPC dealers, but I try to stay fair in my assessment, we chose AHPC for a reason)

Not to discredit this thread... but uhh please don't remind me about evil beam slap! I haven't felt it since I left the 20. Steeplechase day 1 was beamslap heaven every year.
Jdub... you had it happen in Racine? That really makes me feel good about you beating us
And Pat... to be fair I think in Canada it came down to the sailors... the infusion and the C2 seemed pretty equally matched in those waves. Olivier seemed to be doing okay with the Wildcat but we made some big gains on him when he would stuff and we wouldn't.
I was very impressed with the C2 though, that was the first time i'd seen an F18 push it as hard downwind in those waves as an infusion can... and that's saying alot. AND to be honest from racing against it I think it's a great all around platform, it seems to be fast in all conditions, where I feel the infusion suffers in small chop from the hull being so wide.

I'm sailing in a bay of the most western/southern part of the Baltic Sea. If we have easterly and strong winds, the fetch is several 100 miles long resulting in steep, high waves. On a downwind leg of usual distance I have a slap 2 to 3 times. I wouldn't ask if this wasn't a subject ....

If you want to make a 'back beam slap' test, just come to Buenos Aires and sail-race in a South East 15-25 knots with short steep waves...

Original Capricorn could not perform to its full potential in these special local conditions due to a constant slap that induced a full stop and semi pitchs, that's why they modified the moulds and elevated the rear beam- Local made Capricorns are having a smooth ride with this mod.

Now we have Bundy's C2, owner report the easiest ride ever downwind on same conditions (he has two Infusion also to compare. I still didn´t sail it, but he is flying downwind)

Infusions are made for this river so no problem at all.

So to answer your question, the C2 has no problem with back beam slaping and was one the modifications addressed by Greg/Brett as the C2 rear beam is placed higher than the Cap-

Yup, pretty much agree, I've always felt that the Infusion was the best boat in big seas / heavy stuff downwind until the C2 came along, now I think they are the same. That said, I've never sailed the infusion, just watched you ;-)

Small chop, interesting observation, I've always felt the Cap, and now the C2 deal well with small chop. The C2 seems easier to get on a plain upwind which also helps it kind of "ride over" the small stuff, even to weather. This is most likely due to the shape of the bottom of the hulls, pretty much flat from the back of the trunk to the stern. Still lots to play with and learn on the boat, plus you know, get better ourselves ;-)

I sailed the Capricorn on the Great Texas 300 this year and I can tell you that it was a balancing act between beam slap and pitch poling the entire time. The problem was definitely fixed on the C2.

In this context: may I ask how you get along with the 2-line system (sepearate tack-line) of the spin? Apart from less clutter on the deck I'd assume that pulling just one line is faster than two ...

And thanks for the response to my initial question!

Speaking from sailing an infusion (not a C2)....We have a two line system for the kite. The tack line is run all the way out to Starboard hull. While approaching A mark on the starboard layline, crew can reach the tack line (from the wire) and get the tack out even before reaching A. One less thing to do during the rounding!

From there the tack line is run under the tramp, so no excess clutter on the tramp.

I've experimented with both a lot over the past few years, my thoughts:
One line system:
-Physically easier to hoist (2:1 advantage on the halyard)
-Less mental requirement (i.e don't need to remember the tack line)
-Douse always works (no tack line to forget about, cleat to not release, etc)
-Takes slightly longer to hoise (twice as much line to pull), for me, about 2-4 seconds longer (yes, I'm not the fastest hoister, I'm also not the slowest )

Two line system (what I have settled on)
- Can pull tack out ahead of time. Only time I don't is if their is no offset mark (which makes me mad at the PRO) AND the wind is heavy (25+) as the wind can take the kite out of the bag (happened once, not a huge deal).
- Faster hoist (direct 1:1, I can get it up theoretically twice as fast)
- Harder hoist (1:1, taking the direct load of the kite).
- Need to remember to pop the tack line on douse (C2 is rigged in a manner that this is supper easy now and 99.999999% reliable)

Basically I've gone to the two line system, I pull the tackline out from the wire before the bear down, let the downhaul off, let the rotation out, ease the jib sheet either all from the wire (if conditions warrant it and timing of the bear away) or from in the boat and hoist.

I also prefer standing up to hoist so have a higher placement of the cleat on the mast then what I've seen on the Infusion and some Capricorns. This lets me get the last bit of halyard as I "fall back" into place as the boat accelerates as well as keep my elbows out of my skippers face (he insists this is key for him to drive well, I disagree...)

Now my cards are all on the table

Our system for the tackline is also under the tramp. Small other bonus of the system, easier rigging, I never remember how that one line system works

You can also have a 1:1 single line system, this negates some of the disadvantages you list in the one line system. It's my weapon of choice with the caveat that I don't have the same requirements as I sail mostly solo.

A disavantadge of the separate tack line you don't mention is the starboard rounding issue. Doing starboard rounding of marks with the tack line nicely routed to the wrong side is a challenge. Not an issue at the top level, where starboard rounding is rare unless you're doing match racing, but for club racing or long distance it's not that uncommon.

Never thought of the starboard rounding issue (never had a stb rounding in an F18, but we only do up / down races). Might even be an issue if we all started jumping on the Match Racing scene (stb roundings are the norm). I could think of a couple ways to make it double sided though.

We did starboard roundings at the Western Area F18 Champs in San Francisco. I did not like them, Sam-I-Am.

can you diagram the 2:1 single line setup? I have seen single line but not with a 2:1 halyard...

It's in the manual, pg 45.

OK its set up like I expected... It is not 2:1, you have no mechanical advantage on the halyard. All it does is eliminate the separate tack line and combine it with the halyard. Some Tigers have the same thing only it is done at the tack end instead of the halyard end. The reason you have more line to pull is because the same line acts as the tack line and the halyard, so you have that much to pull instead of pulling two different lines. Theoretically it should be faster than two separate lines... More friction though...

That is not 2:1!

2:1 at the lower half of the mast pulling 1:2 at the top

2:1 v 1:2 = 1:1

If you actually did manage to get 2:1 halyard then you would have approximately 9 meters of extra halyard on the deck with the kite is hoisted.. MADNESS!!!!!

Have always had a separate tack on my cap, it wasn't setup particularly well and tended to not cleat and be a bit painful to use but after a lot of tweaks it works every time reliably. the aforementioned advantages are well worth the effort.

The only thing I would add is having the tack line tail taken back up the tramp is not for me. I prefer to have mine shock corded to main beam, it leaves about a 1 meter loop on the deck but when the kite is being doused there is no friction added to the system. better for the kite, better for the crew.

Ah, pulley math... fun stuff.

I stand corrected, it is as the above mentioned, 1:1 (forgot the tackline wasn't dead ended).

I do feel that in practice the tackline gets out first, essentially dead ending that part of the system, which gives you (and again, I'm probably wrong) a 2:1 for the spin halyard in the last / hardest part of the hoist.

Sorry for the confusion.

I sailed 12 Skiffs with a 1:2 purchase...... Kite goes up real quick. Problem is you don't have enough tail for the retreival line which does not concern them as they bag their kites.

bag a kite? so old school.... I would love to try one of those, did my time on an i14 at some point, fun fun.

I guess if they wanted they could hook up a separate line as a retrieval line and just have the tail sucked up via bungie and a series of blocks....

A 12 hull does not leave a lot of room for a snuffer.

We have a local world fireball champion, when everyone in fireballs were using snuffers he opted to go back to the bag.

Using a 1:6 system the skipper would hoist the kite while the crew threw the kite into the air. the results were sets inside 2 seconds, the fastest in the fleet. a side bonus was the boat didn't fill with water from waves going down the snuffer.

apparently it was a easy worlds to win as no one ever got close.

Has anyone ever done a reverse purchase, say 1:2 on an F18? I would think the load would increase too much to handle in big breeze... But could be a nice addition if not.

Interesting....

It'd probably be pretty simple to make it so you could change it out as well. Maybe not on the water, but in the morning make a change for the conditions.

I would think that'd be a sever SOB to pull up in any kind of wind though.

I know that some use a 1:2 system to pull out the tack, it doesnt add much more resistance but makes it easier to pull (1 short vs 1 long).
Dont think it would work for hoisting unless you have a bodybuilder-type crew.

I threw the idea around in my early days on the Tornado. I beleive it was John Forbes who said he tried it and the loads were to great. Also gave the spinnaker extra purchase to pull the halyard through the cleat when you did notwant it to.

We had 1:2 purchase on the Hobie Tiger tack line (split system). When I tried it on the Tornado we trashed a couple of cleats. TA what's on Griffo's boat now?

I tried the 1:2 on the separate tack line. Way too much load.

The 2-line system also allows us to tweak on the luff shape.

And occasionally we can ease out the tack if we need to point a bit higher. I'm still playing with that option. I'm not sure I am using it to its fullest.

I did. It was fast (I timed myself doing it in 3 seconds). My crew had to pull really hard to get enough luff tension. The other problem is that there is a lot of extra halyard sitting around when the spinnaker is down because the retrieval line goes out more than the halyard goes in.

As a big strong dude in his 20's that like to fiddle with stuff, I would setup something like this if I was crew and make the retrieval end 1:2 as well.

If your crew is not huge, they will spend so time trying to pull the last little bit to get enough luff tension that it is slower than 1:1. Also, note that the cleat will have to take twice as much force.

I tried the 1:2 tack line on the Capricorn also but went away from it due to the load.

Griffo now has a seperate tackline 1:1 through a spinnlock, same as I had on the Cap.

Thats kind of what I expected.