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F18 Rule Amendments 2011

Posted By: David Ingram

F18 Rule Amendments 2011 - 10/03/11 06:25 PM

Rule Amendments
Posted By: rhodysail

Re: F18 Rule Amendments 2011 - 10/03/11 10:51 PM

Can we also mention that the North American Prescriptions have been eliminated?
Posted By: David Ingram

Re: F18 Rule Amendments 2011 - 10/04/11 06:11 PM

At the AGM the USF18 Prescriptions were voted out. Time to leave your speed pucks on the the beach.

Watch your email for the AGM meeting minutes this week.

Dave
Posted By: rexdenton

Re: F18 Rule Amendments 2011 - 10/06/11 03:13 PM

Dave, Seriously? No GPS? Please confirm.
Posted By: John Williams

Re: F18 Rule Amendments 2011 - 10/06/11 05:36 PM

I'm not surprised - the straw poll in Racine was pretty heavily in favor of devices that display time and heading, but not speed. That pretty much knocks out anything with a GPS in it.
Posted By: BoK

Re: F18 Rule Amendments 2011 - 10/06/11 05:49 PM

Hmmm, as I remember the meeting in Racine, the question was display of VMG not speed.
Posted By: orphan

Re: F18 Rule Amendments 2011 - 10/06/11 07:50 PM

You can disable speed on the speedpuck. Still not allowed?
Posted By: David Ingram

Re: F18 Rule Amendments 2011 - 10/07/11 12:55 PM

Originally Posted by BoK
Hmmm, as I remember the meeting in Racine, the question was display of VMG not speed.


John is correct. Time and heading is what was expressed by the straw poll.
Posted By: David Ingram

Re: F18 Rule Amendments 2011 - 10/07/11 12:59 PM

Originally Posted by rexdenton
Dave, Seriously? No GPS? Please confirm.


Yes Seriously, please refer to the class rules regarding the use of GPS enabled devices. They are permitted for distance/adventure races but not buoy.

Wording regarding the use of GPS enabled devices was submitted by the technical committee over a year ago but I have seen no action by the IF18CA to rule one way or the other. Now you know all I know.
Posted By: David Ingram

Re: F18 Rule Amendments 2011 - 10/07/11 01:05 PM

Originally Posted by orphan
You can disable speed on the speedpuck. Still not allowed?


Depends on if you think the "I didn't have it enabled" argument will hold up in a hearing. If you think it's solid then you can use your disabled GPS device, if you don't think the argument will hold up in the room then you'll be leaving it on the beach. Of course your results may vary depending on who is hearing the protest. If you get a hard butt like me you'll get flicked.

Posted By: samc99us

Re: F18 Rule Amendments 2011 - 10/07/11 02:45 PM

This seems like a silly issue. VMG is nice, particularly on a super long course where you may not see the top mark, but really this requires you sailing the course and grabbing those mark points. In my experience, you don't have time in a bouy race to worry about GPS data if the breeze is up.

My point being, I have GPS equipment for distance racing that would work fine for around the buoys. I don't own a $400 TackTick. Should I? Yes, but since that is the only non-GPS enabled device on the market that gives you heading, is this really a fair rule? IMO, no, it is simply forcing people to buy one manufacturers product...
Posted By: rexdenton

Re: F18 Rule Amendments 2011 - 10/07/11 03:00 PM

From a compliance/regulatory capacity, absolute mandates are better for both the adjudicators and the participants. With Compasses that can have the GPS/VMG/Speed turned off, a de facto mixed standard for compliance is created, if the rule language is vaguely described.

I'd be happier if the rule language is black or white, (no wiggle room). They are or they are not legal.

Also, I can only find 2010 rules. Maybe I'm looking in the wrong place for the 2011 rules. The amendments don't mention anything about GPS as far as I can see. I remain confused as to what represents the status quo, (and have been now for about a year).
Posted By: Sloansailing

Re: F18 Rule Amendments 2011 - 10/07/11 03:11 PM

The speedpuck doesn't give you heading, it gives you COG. This is a function of GPS. So, even with the speed turned off the COG function of the speedpuck is still using GPS data. So is this not allowed?
Posted By: Sloansailing

Re: F18 Rule Amendments 2011 - 10/07/11 03:19 PM

Just checked the rules and by my estimation Speedpucks are not allowed at all, as they receive data for both speed (SOG) and "heading" (COG). (Rule C.5.1-b-3)
Posted By: Dlennard

Re: F18 Rule Amendments 2011 - 10/07/11 03:34 PM

If F18 is trying to save cost it does not seem so with having to buy the more expensive compass only. I guess none of the boats at the NA's were legal with all of them having the tracking devices?
Posted By: David Ingram

Re: F18 Rule Amendments 2011 - 10/07/11 03:36 PM

What we have to go by is what is on the IF18CA website:

Rules Download Page

Yes, the rules need some work and the good news is their is a working committee scrubbing the rules right now. Replacing things that have been inadvertently dropped, clarifying the unclear....

Now I'm not guaranteeing there still won't be questions once the scrub is done, I'm sure this will be an iterative process. From what I've been told it's pretty common for class rules to get a little "inaccurate" when the rules move to the ISAF format. Bottom line is it's being addressed.

Sam as far as your comments go, the class prescriptions covered the Speed Puck and the class voted to drop the prescriptions. Fair or unfair, like or don't like, the USF18 class has made it's desire known on the issue.

Rex as far is the GPS issue being unclear... don't agree but that is just me.
Posted By: David Ingram

Re: F18 Rule Amendments 2011 - 10/07/11 03:37 PM

Originally Posted by Dlennard
If F18 is trying to save cost it does not seem so with having to buy the more expensive compass only. I guess none of the boats at the NA's were legal with all of them having the tracking devices?


Good point Dave, and an issue that was brought up at the Worlds last year. I'm confident the tracking devices can be easily handled.
Posted By: Sloansailing

Re: F18 Rule Amendments 2011 - 10/07/11 04:06 PM

Originally Posted by David Ingram
Originally Posted by Dlennard
If F18 is trying to save cost it does not seem so with having to buy the more expensive compass only. I guess none of the boats at the NA's were legal with all of them having the tracking devices?


Good point Dave, and an issue that was brought up at the Worlds last year. I'm confident the tracking devices can be easily handled.


Just drop "for long distance courses" from Rule C.5.1-b-4 and its done. Allowed or required by NOR...
Posted By: rexdenton

Re: F18 Rule Amendments 2011 - 10/07/11 05:27 PM

Under the 2010 C5, any GPS technically 'receives data' in the form of satellite fix. By the strictest interpretation any GPS is not compliant.

Is this correct?

If this is not correct, the rule is unclear.
Posted By: David Ingram

Re: F18 Rule Amendments 2011 - 10/07/11 06:10 PM

Rex, by the strictest interpretation any GPS enabled device is not compliant, and yes that is how I read it. But, I'm just another competitor just like you, I have no authority in how the rules are interpreted.

As sloansailing pointed out, if the three words "long distance courses" were struck the issue could be handled at the event level. I want to remind everyone again, the USF18 class voted to drop the prescriptions which dropped the ability to use the Speedpuck so... there are more than a few that are okay with the no GPS rule.

C.5.1 FOR USE
(a) MANDATORY
(1) One righting line, minimum 4 metres long and 10 mm minimum
diameter.
(2) One magnetic steering compass.
(b) OPTIONAL
(1) Magnetic compasses.
(2) Mechanical timing devices. Mechanical wind indicators.
(3) Electronic devices that provide timing, heading, and heading
memory but which do not transmit or receive data.
(4) When required by the Notice of Race for long distance courses,
organisers may require further equipment, such as VHF, mobile
phone, GPS or tracking devices, Emergency Positioning Indicating
radio beacons (EPIRB) devices, knife, mirror, whistle, flares,
flashlights, first aid set.
Posted By: rexdenton

Re: F18 Rule Amendments 2011 - 10/07/11 06:26 PM

David, thanks. I know you have no ability to change the status, but I appreciate your perspective. So don't sweat it.

FWIW I asked the same thing a year ago, and got no satisfactory answer then, either. I know people (young and not of unlimited means) that have spent $600+ on a device, and they/we still don't know if their purchase is compliant or not.

As for handling exceptions at the event level, my opinion is that for buoy racing, local rule caveats should be limited to unchangeable realities, or atypical event restrictions, whereas equipment restrictions should be clearly mandated to restrict racing variability in the fleet.

I don't care either way. I just want to know what can or cannot put on an F18. I'd hate to be the guy that uses an instrument as a matter of performance, only to have that element removed in another event, or to be the guy that loses ground to a team with a technical advantage. Either situation is not a good one from the standpoint of competition.
Posted By: wildtsail

Re: F18 Rule Amendments 2011 - 10/08/11 02:23 AM

No one is holding a gun to your head and saying you have to buy an expensive tacktick... You can buy a $2 wrist compass and be compliant.
The majority of the top of the fleet at NA's did not have any electronics on board, so if you want to argue that you need to buy these gadgets to be competitive think again. I have a tacktick and I hardly ever sail with it because in most conditions it's more of a distraction than anything. I can tell a header without having big numbers to tell me.
As far as the trackers goes... they were cheap boost cell phones that only sent signals. Doesn't the wording say receive GPS?
Posted By: John Williams

Re: F18 Rule Amendments 2011 - 10/08/11 02:18 PM

(3) Electronic devices that provide timing, heading, and heading memory but which do not transmit or receive data.

(emphasis mine)

I'm dissatisfied with the outcome due to the paucity of options that don't incorporate modern (1980s) technology. I mean to say that I was happy the Puck came out for a reasonable price, since the TacTic is such a poor, yet expensive, option. I get what the rule is intended to avoid. Doesn't change the limited real-world options for affordable, reliable, durable heading devices.
Posted By: Dlennard

Re: F18 Rule Amendments 2011 - 10/09/11 11:47 AM

Why is the rule in their? Is it to save cost ? It does not. Is it to not give advantage to some that have different devices? I don't think it makes a difference good sailors are still going to win. It is fun seeing how fast you are going which we will have to guess from now on.
Posted By: Dlennard

Re: F18 Rule Amendments 2011 - 10/09/11 12:06 PM

Hey I was reading the rules and found this.
C.4.1 MANDATORY
The crew shall wear a personal floatation device to the minimum standard
EN393, ISO 12402-5 (CE 50 Newtons), USCG Type III, or AUS PFD 2.
Does this mean we can wear our Zhik life jackets now since they meet the CE50 Newtons rule? Why do some race rules say you have to wear a USCG approved life jacket instead of just saying you have to follow the USCG rules. My 2 points are
1. If you come from anywhere other than the US you can wear one of the approved
life jackets above, but not if you live in the US.
2. You could carry 2 USCG approved life jackets on your boat but wear one of the
approved above which would meet the USCG rules.
Posted By: rexdenton

Re: F18 Rule Amendments 2011 - 10/09/11 02:05 PM

Originally Posted by wildtsail
No one is holding a gun to your head and saying you have to buy an expensive tacktick...


no one said anyting about the purchase, just the vagueness about the rule, and the relative equivocation about the ruling body to be clear. Hoping that a rule solves itself, is not a strategy.
Originally Posted by wildtsail


You can buy a $2 wrist compass and be compliant.
The majority of the top of the fleet at NA's did not have any electronics on board, so if you want to argue that you need to buy these gadgets to be competitive think again. I have a tacktick and I hardly ever sail with it because in most conditions it's more of a distraction than anything. I can tell a header without having big numbers to tell me.


You, and the fleet leaders have lots more experience and time on the water, than guys like me and Richard. I think you may agree that we can see lift downwind, but there are those of us that get lost looking for headers and lifts upwind, and calling oscillations upwind so I am looking to begin sorting this out a little better. Which device I buy, I may rely upon to help me with this aspect of our technique upwind. Furthermore, as Dave points out, being able to turn off GPS may be adjudicated differently under protest, depending on the judge. Rules should seek to avoid double standards of interpretation.
Originally Posted by wildtsail

As far as the trackers goes... they were cheap boost cell phones that only sent signals. Doesn't the wording say receive GPS?

Boost phones have an internal GPS (as do all cell phones, in order to be emergency 911 compliant), which is how they can track in the first place, so by the strictest definition, this statement is not true.
Posted By: John Williams

Re: F18 Rule Amendments 2011 - 10/09/11 04:18 PM

Hi Dave -

The GPS rule is in there to prevent things like the Rock Box and other devices that signal where the line is, and devices that can signal when you're on a layline. The intention is to keep a race from becoming a video game. I get it, I just feel that the Puck does none of these things, but it does give me a durable, cost-effective unit that I can change the batteries in and download after a day of sailing to provide better debrief material. While sailing, it gives me a very visible and simple display of heading OR speed (have to pick one), which I have found useful.

Anyway - slippery slope and all... so I guess it is off the boat.
Posted By: Tony_F18

Re: F18 Rule Amendments 2011 - 10/10/11 11:22 AM

As long as these electronic toys are available for everyone I dont see why we should continue banning them.
In fact a Tacktick Racemaster T070 (which almost everyone has now) costs the same a Rockbox or Nauteek unit.
Boats like Melges 24 are allowed to use stuff like this so why cant we?
I also dont believe it will turn sailing into a video game, in fact it might actually improve the overall quality of racing by keeping the fleets tigher together.
Posted By: waterbug_wpb

Re: F18 Rule Amendments 2011 - 10/10/11 07:49 PM

I would venture that it's more important to judge what the wind WILL do (lift/header) versus what it IS doing on your boat at that particular moment.

So the onboard compass helps show what is happening NOW, but you still have to get your head out of the boat and up the course.

And on the tracker issue, is any of that position information transmitted back to the boat in order to inform the crews? Or is it merely tracking for the purposes of the audience? If there is a delay in the position updates, I don't see how it would be of much value to racers in a short (buoy) race, and shouldn't therefore be banned...
Posted By: John Williams

Re: F18 Rule Amendments 2011 - 10/10/11 11:23 PM

Hey Jay -

Timing and a compass allow you to judge between oscillating or persistent shifts, a la Dr. Walker. These two scenarios are the base of the pillars of strategy.

Posted By: Baltic

Re: F18 Rule Amendments 2011 - 10/11/11 09:47 AM

Originally Posted by John Williams
a la Dr. Walker.


What do mean by that?
Posted By: Sloansailing

Re: F18 Rule Amendments 2011 - 10/11/11 02:33 PM

Originally Posted by Baltic
Originally Posted by John Williams
a la Dr. Walker.


What do mean by that?


Stuart Walker. One of the most read (albeit dry...) authors on racing tactics, weather, and psychology. http://www.sailingworld.com/racing/stuart-walker
Posted By: maritimesailor

Re: F18 Rule Amendments 2011 - 10/12/11 03:11 PM

No speedpuck = step backwards. The Quebec fleet actually has 10 that they give out to random boats every day, then post the resulting tracks during evening dinners and their web sites afterwards so all can learn. Most of us have them as well so we end up being able to look at the entire fleet, plus it is fun during the evening hours. This is a step forward use of technology.

Allow GPS for three things, speed and compass and recording of these metrics for OFF WATER USE.

And if you think laylines, pinging start lines, etc will help you in F18 sailing (small courses), good luck! While you are waiting for your GPS to tell you to tack, I'll be blowing past you at mock ten.
Posted By: waterbug_wpb

Re: F18 Rule Amendments 2011 - 10/13/11 02:50 PM

Originally Posted by John Williams
Hey Jay -

Timing and a compass allow you to judge between oscillating or persistent shifts, a la Dr. Walker. These two scenarios are the base of the pillars of strategy.



True, Dub, but that sounds like a lot of time with your head in the boat. You rock stars just "see" the wind.

beeeee the wind....nnnnaaanananan
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