Sail Material

Dear F18 sailors,

The F18 World Council is trying to change the sailcloth list in order to limit the choices to the most expensive and least available cloths just to satisfy a couple of large manufacturers (all members of the Technical Comity) desire to try and defend their market position.

The members of the World Council already voted against this new cloth list during the last December WC meeting but James Baeckler and Don Findlay are trying to change it once again...

Let me explain you why this restricted cloth list is not in favor of the F18 class and the sailors:

3 mil laminate is a pure non sense, the strength of the cloth should not come from the film (plastic) but from the yarns.

You don't get a stronger or longer lasting sail just by adding more plastic to the material. The fibers are the bulk of the strength and as such you should be aiming to encourage better fibre/film ratios. For example the sails of the big boats going all around the world (Imoca 60, Multi 50...) are all using 1,5mil laminates. 100% of the sails used during the last Volvo Ocean Race and the winning sails of the Vendée Globe had not any film but only yarns (fibers) with the 3DI. Durability is the main concern of these offshore sailors. Everyone is trying to get rid of the plastic.

It make absolutely no sense to use a thick material (3mil), it is less flexible while you fold it and makes more wrinkles. Check the window material (which is made of 4 or 5 mil laminate) it is the part of the sail which get damaged the most quickly... All the cloth manufacturers can confirm it.

If the reason is cost, the price of a laminate cloth is directly linked with it’s weight, DPI (Denier Per square Inch) from 5 to 15 on the fabric listed on the cloth list and the thickness of the film (1,5 to 3mil on the fabric listed on the cloth list). 3mil cloth is around 10% more expensive than 1,5mil. For example the new cloth list is banning all the Polyester laminate (Dimension Polyant PX05 1,5 mil, PX 10 1,5 mil, PX 15 1,5 mil...) which are 30% cheaper than any Pentex laminates. Is it in the interest of the class ?? It is nevertheless against the wish of the class to reduce the cost...

Concerning the Polyester spinnaker fabric, the Polyester is much more stable than the nylon which make the shape of the kite lasting longer. If the sailors are careful and do not rip them, the polyester spinnaker is performing longer than a Nylon one.

In conclusion the members of the Technical Comity who all have commercial interest (Peter Vink from Performance Sails Nacra, Gregg Goodal from Goodal Sails AHPC, Pablo Soldano from Ullman Sails Hobie Cat), are doing everything to harm SAIL INNOVATION which is clearly against the principle of the free market economy and not in the interest of the class.

We should stop banning things but going sailing.

Please vote against this new cloth list which is against the interest of the sailors !

Thank you

ALEX UDIN

I understand the gist of your post but the conflict you allege with the manufacturers makes no sense. To my knowledge, none of those on the technical committee are sail cloth manufacturers, more they buy the raw product and manufacture sails from them. To me, it would be in all their interests to look at materials and techniques which either lower the cost, increase the durability of sails or both.

As for the permitted materials list, I'm fine with it and do think it should err on the side of permission unless there is a clear and over riding case for no. Things like short supply, prohibitive cost and/or sort lifespan should all be considered. One such example would be if a manufacturer developed a sail that blew the competition out of the water however cost a bomb and lasted just more than 1 regatta.

Michael

The newly proposed list has removed a lot of the cheaper cloths that were on there and now you have less choice and the ones on the list are at least 10% more expensive than the ones just removed.

The real issue is that the big three have all done their sails in 3.0mil laminate fabric. Some others have used 1.5 mil laminate (with more fiber and less film). The 1.5 mil sails are fast and lasting just as long as the 3mil sails because they have more of he strong stuff (fiber) and less of the cheap **** film. But the big three sailmakers don't want to go and develop a set of competitive sails in 1.5mil so the easiest way to sort it is to ban the 1.5 cloth... It takes a lot of work to make change from one cloth type to another, it's not as simple as just making the same shape with a new cloth, it behaves differently and as such if they achieve a ban on 1.5mil cloth it forces those currently using 1.5 to begin development all over again, hence removing them as a competitor and making life easy for the big guys again... Sounds pessimistic I know, but that's the unfortunate reality.

Of greater concern here is that the class world council has already voted on the cloth list at the last AGM and it was decided to not change the list, but the technical committee (made up of the big three sailmakers) has decided to try again to sneak a cloth change through the rules.... It's like a naughty child being told they can't have a cookie, but they keep trying to steal one when you turn your back..

One year ago Mr Mac Pherson, Mr Udin and others said and wrote that paint on the hull was only for economic purpose and to permit little manufacturer to survive, and it wasn't for an technical advantage.

Mr Udin admit last december on Mr Vanzulli site (http://tinyurl.com/abjagjm) , that gel coat was dead weight so you can have stiffer hull using paint.

Mr Udin's words:
"The gelcoat doesn´t makes the boat stronger, is dead weight, so we decided to use paint and reinforce the laminate schedule giving us a better use of the class rules in the benefit of the final sailor that will receive a more stiffer and stronger boat"

So do not forget, that those people are struggling first for their own business.

Same players shoot again with sail material

Phantom is a great and fast boat.
But what is the interest to win when you're boat is faster than the one next you ?

F18 was created by the french MNA.
In 1999, french MNA official: Pierre Charles Barraud and Olivier Bovyn wrote that F18 was created for: "limit the cost by limiting material and using standart product."

As you can see Mr Udin and Mc Pherson admit that 3 mil laminate is the standart.
Of course 1,5 mil are lighter and so have more performance for the boat.
And may be (may be only) they are lasting as long as 3 mil. ones.
As for the paint Mr Udin and Mr Mc Pherson may hide something here.


Today french F18 sailors are still fast and the most numerous.
So the french fleet is very sensitive for every change in F18.

F18 are not high tech. F18 class is not A class or C class.
Mr Udin and Mc Pherson do no understand that. That is a pitty.


The spirit of F18 is to have the more similar boat, that permit to race in real time, no rating.
Too long daggerboard, paint on hull and now thin sail is the path to create 2 F18 fleet.
Sailors skill is the game value. The result of Billy Besson and Jeremie Lagarrigue in the last LA world, without training, on a MK2 is a great lesson and hope for F18 future.

Franck,
As you know I have minimal respect for your position on technical matters, what makes you a dangerous contributor to this class is that you seem to think you have a grasp of these matters...

gelcoat is a deadweight in comparison to paint. Both substances are designed to provide a surface coating for the hulls. Both have essentially the same friction qualities (gelcoat is actually shown to have lower friction than paint, so therefore is advantaged). The function qualities are essentially equal. Thats why there is no advantage in paint, and yes, its cheaper for us to build in this method. We have decided to use the weight saved by using paint to built a stiffer and stronger boat. This means that it will last longer and that is what we as customers should all desire!!! A quality product that will stand the test of time. If you dont want class members to be able to buy a quality, long lasting boat then I suggest that you review your participation in this class.

As for sail cloth:- Show me someone with a set of 1.5mil sails that is unhappy with the longevity??? how about we ask the hardest man I know on sails and equipment, a man with a reputation for breaking the toughest built boats and sails, a man who has more miles on beach cats than anyone else I know.... And guess what... he is FRENCH. Yvan Bourgnon. Oh, and he has had a set of 1.5 mil sails for years and they are still going strong.

After such hard usage its performing just fine. So why change it?

1.5 mil sail cloth is not a new thing in the class, it has been used from the very first day of introducing a cloth list for this class, and sails have been made from it for many years.

If its not broken, why change it??

1.5mil cloth is cheaper than 3.0mil cloth, by around 10% so why is the tech committe trying to force more expensive cloth on us customers?

Andrew, I understand you're a bit nervous.

Can you provide test (UV, mechanic, abrasion...) to confirm what you write ?
Low tech people, as I am, need some serious stuff to believe you now.
Sales representative one hand argumentation are not serious enough.

Why 1,5 mil the limit. 1 mil or 0,75 could be ok ?
More seriously 1,5 mil. are lighter than 3 mil. sails. That is a performance bonus for the boat.
Weight in the high of the boat is very important.
You're not agree, with that technical matter ?

Plastic weight is like gelcoat weight, that is dead weight.
You're not agree, with that technical matter ?

150 kg boat are cheaper than 180 kg because they use less material.
But they are no more F18.

Most of the F18 fleet is gel coated and with 3 mil. sails.
And the interest is to have the more similar boats on the starting line.

Some do not need faster boat to be in the top ten ;-)
They're simply better sailors.

Franck,
you have possibly the most incoherent arguments I have ever come across.

I believe that the sky is blue, you will argue against that for the sake of arguing...

Im done with wasting my time on you. good luck with your little cruusade. I can tell you one thing: its not going to end like you want, just like every other case in recent class history.

Do you know how capitalism works? Limiting sail options and manufacturers simply drives costs UP for the sailors. This has been proven over and over again. Just go look at the N20 class.

Exactly!!

Hi Sam,

F18 is not capitalism stuff. It has been created in a sovietic country: La France.

Under the watch of a government sport agency the french sailing MNA: la Fédération Française de Voile.

I know it's hard to believe But that make sense with the genuine purpose of F18.

The cost of F18 is increasing much more because of hole in the rule (length of daggerboard, height of the hull), or the rule not apply strictly like allow carbon in daggerboard than limiting the thickness of the sails.
Don't you think so ?

Here the gain is mainly a performance bonus, lighter sails is really faster.

Actually F18 is not responding to free market mechanism: more offer does not mean cheaper boat.
At the start only 3 F18 model: Mattia, Tiger and Hawk and they were half the price of 2013 F18.

A contrario, less rule like C class or A class or AC72 does not make cheap boat.

So we have a chance to have sails that are
1 Lighter
2 Faster
3 of equal strength
4 of equal durability
5 less cost

And the sail cloth has been on the "list" for a long time. Suddenly someone makes a sail out of it and we need to kill it now!

I don't understand the issue here it sounds like win win.

Sails are temporary

Never let logic get in the way of a mornic decision though!!!

thats why we end up in this mess again.

Lighter that is obvious. So the boat is faster, but you're no more in F18 spirit.
What is the interest to have a faster F18 on the the start line ?
You want to be in front of the F18 fleet, I suggest you to improve your sailing skill.
That is the genuine F18 spirit and the key of the success of this formula.

Equal durability and less cost that is only Andrew and Alex words.
I ask Andrew, who is a great technician, to show us tests (UV, mechanic, abrasion).
I wait to see that 1,5 mil. offer the same protection than 3 mil.

It was the same argumentation for paint. Alex and Andrew claim it was for economical purpose only, and one year later Alex admit that gelcoat is dead weight and using paint allow stiffer platform.
You can believe sales representative to defend their interests more than yours.

The same kind of question was for the diameter of wire shroud. 3 mm was ok and faster but they broke after 6/8 month use and you need to change them once a year. 4 mm is now the rule and you can keep them for many years. There less business so less mess

This same stuff is was why I got out of sailing lasers.

If it has been on a "list" for a long time, the time to protest was when it went on the list not when a manufacturer was smart enough to use it.

You are saying that a sail was made to the rules and is better so we need to change the rules. Perhaps its time for others to advance as well...after all its on the "list"

This is worse than what the Laser class does.

Who can prove that 1,5 mil are better ?

No one needs to prove it better its on the "LIST" so its a choice we can make. If you like 3 mil buy 3 mil if some else likes 1.5 they can sail with that.

I have 3 Mil and will buy the same again. But if its on the LIST it should be ok to use.

1,5 mil. is a performance bonus, the sail are lighter, durability is the key factor: kleenex sails are not in F18 way.
Andrew write that 1,5 mil. = 3 mil. for durability.
I ask him to prove it.

Using 1,5 mil. material is cheaper (Alex Udin write that), but his sails (using 1,5 mil. ?) are as expensive as others...

The key point is to have very close F18 on the start line, thin sails like paint on the hull are true performance bonus.
No sport interest to have a F18 faster than the one next to you on the starting line.
The genuine purpose of F18 is to get as similar boats as possible.

If the rule process goes to its target, grandfathering would be ok, no problem about that, I think.

All the same as in SMOD

Section of ACTUAL final minutes relating to sail cloth from:

International Formula 18 Catamaran Association.
Paris Council meeting.
17, Rue henri Bocquillon, Paris 75015
Saturday 15th December 2012 at 09h30.
Final Minutes

9.Paint and Cloth list adoption :

Paint list :
It was agreed that there is little chance of policing the Paint List and so no point in it being in the Class Rules. The meeting agreed to the removal of the Paint List from the August 2012 DRAFT Rules.

Cloth list :
The Cloth List was subject to considerable debate.

The Technical Committee Chair pointed out that many of these cloths were no longer made or used and that was one reason for shortening the list, the others being the desire of Council over the years to have heavy long lasting cloths and that 3.0mil cloth would have the same sailing characteristics and so adhere better to the Guiding Principles of the Class.

The meeting decided to keep the March 2010 List in force, but asked Findlay to write to the main cloth makers within seven days and ask them which of their cloths they thought would be available worldwide for the next two years, which would give long lasting life, and at a competitive price and keep to the Class Guiding principles. When this information was to hand, then a new list could be presented to Council.
The Technical Committee were asked to establish a clear protocol for changing of rules or even cloths.
The Technical committee will work to define a set of mechanical characteristics for the cloth makers to produce fit for purpose sailcloth.
The characteristics to define for main and Jib are:
• minimum of DPI,
• minimum film thicknes,
• minimum weight,
• fabric from rolls with constant construction.
The characteristic to define for Spinnaker (nylon or polyester) is :
• minimum weight.
The characteristics selected will ensure optimum performance for :
• at least 2 years for main sail,
• at least 1 year for Jib and spinnaker.

For developments purpose, it is critical that in one country, a new cloth material that may fit with class requirement will be examined by the Technical Committee which will reply within 30 days.

The Council agreed that long term stability is requested with class rules while keeping the possibility to review the fabrics from the cloth list ensuring value for money to the sailors.

is a box-rule F18 cheaper than a SMOD Wildcat?

I was under the impression that box-rule/formula class structure would allow for cheaper and more durable boats because of the flexibility of multiple manufacturers and materials?

The only reason I mention SMOD is that Franck was so insistent on all the boats being the same and no one manufacturer should build a faster product than the next.

My understanding of a box rule was that a set of guidelines were set. Different manufacturers would build boats that met the criteria set in the rules. If I am a new manufacturer I am going to try to build a faster boat than the others so I can claim a bigger market share for myself (make money, more sales)because of a faster better designed boat.

Apparently this is not in the "spirit" of the F18 class and some how and new manufacturer is suppose to survive by following what the others are doing and respecting the fact that they must not build anything that could be better even if it adheres to the rules. (no innovation allowed what so ever)

This sounds to me like SMOD (N20, Nacra 17, Laser, Sunfish)

The idea of F18 is not to have faster boat (180 kg is not very performing indeed). Faster boat have no interest in the game. The idea is to have very close boats.

A class or C class are box rules and are developpment series, always improving your boat to go faster is part of the game.

F18 genuine idea is not that.

F18 is a close class rules. What is not allowed is forbidden.
That is the F18 spirit. So twisting the rule is not right and contain evolution logical.

Due to the success of F18 and some hole in the original set of rules (height of hull, length of daggerboard) and some authorisation (carbon in daggerboard, without it you cannot have thin and 2 meters daggerboard), you have now 2 or 3 F18 fleet.
So a Tiger can no more win a national F18 Championship (last time in Spain in 2010). That is a warning.

And that bad move explain: C1, C2, C2 with longer daggerboard, Infusion , Infusion MK2, Wildcat with new set of sails and so on. This is a run that made your F18 obsolete.

Some details like moving from gel coat to paint to gain on structure weight or using very light sails (the subject of the topic) make a gain of performance.

It's easy to understand the wish of a faster boat. But having a faster F18 is not the target. That is less interesting than improving sailing skills.

To me these are the rules of the game. If you don't like this game play another game. The rules are there is black & white. No twisting at all. Just innovation, as allowed by the rules.

SMOD will solve all your concerns. Every boat a carbon copy of the next.

Knowing how much fun you can have on one of these modern F18's I would now dread having to go out and compete on one of the first versions of the F18 class.

Fact is, older models have always been obsolete to some extent depending on how much used the boat is, and how aged the model is. Equally important is that this has been a fairly gradual process, and there have always been new entrants interested in buying used cats of older design, helping build the class.

Likewise I am looking forward to the next changes in e.g. hull design which will make the F18 go even faster and which will make it even more spectacular. Likely though - given our class rules - this will be continue to be a fairly gradual process, spanning many years. The only thing that can stop this - no thanks - in this example is a new rule which forbids the introduction of new, faster hull designs.

Let there be progress.

Ad

I'm sure that Carbon mast, foils and 150 kg boats are better, faster, more fun indeed, that is true progress.
But that is no more F18.

Since the start, F18 are low tech boat: no foil, no carbon mast, 180 kg -heavy-, no wing, that explain the success of the class.

F18 is closer to SMOD than A Class and C Class, the concept is to have very similar boat. Today most of the boat use 3 mil. thickness sails.

Franck

What you are suggesting can't happen in the F18 class because there are rules that we have to follow.

Design innovation within the rules is what makes the F18 a great class

The freedom to choose

http://vimeo.com/17595156

but has the multiple manufacturer / limited materials formula made sailing more affordable than an unlimited or SMOD setup?

Are A-class sails (unlimited) or Hobie compliant Tiger sails (SMOD)more or less expensive than an F18 sail?

Rumor is under the rules as currently submitted the Hobie Tiger and Wildcat sails would be illegal in blue or red as they are 2.5 contender. As well as the Nacra and AHPC colored sails. There is a good discussion going on on the international F-18 Facebook site too.

Future 2.5mm sails would be illegal (if the new list is adopted)....existing measured 2.5mm sails would be legal...

Franck, please tell us what boat you sail? Obviously someone **** in your wheaties because they are using lighter, faster, more durable sails, have long boards and a wing mast section and are now beating you around the course.

There is no reason to limit the sail materials unless the intention is to reduce cost. That is CLEARLY not the case here, considering you are going to make illegal a number of existing sails. That is in the best interest of the manufacturers who sit on the technical committee!!!!

Making the boats more similar has nothing to do with it. The rules are designed to have flexibility for limited innovation. Otherwise everyone would still be sailing Hobie Tigers, and the F18 fleet in most of the U.S wouldn't be near as strong-the sail and rig innovations let F18's match or beat N20's that carry a carbon rig and more sail area.

Finally, someone can go out, pick up a used Tiger for $5K USD, stick a set of $3K long boards and high aspect rudders on the boat, put a nice new set of 2012 sails on and for less than $10K still have a very competitive F18. No it won't win championships because the people winning Nationals and World's are all pro's sailing the latest and greatest designs. Do you spend 300+ days a year on the water with coaching??? If not the platform doesn't matter and this fleet separation you are talking about is mostly a skill set issue.

I have just spoken to Peter Vink (Performance Sails) and all smoke and white Nacra Infusion sails have ALWAYS been made with 3mm cloth. There have been a very few 2.5mm sets in dark blue (they are no longer an available option), but these would remain legal as they are already measured under old cloth list specification.

Well said!

Those sails will only be legal if they have been measured, but there are a lot of this type of sail that is out there on boats and if they are not currently measured then they are now useless for class racing if this idiotic rule change goes ahead. Same goes for all the coloured sails from Hobie and the lighter 2.5mil ones that AHPC have made recently.

Agreed they will only be legal if they are measured, but given that it is more than 16 months since the last dark blue Infusion sails were sold (they were sold in the UK and are they are the only set here-they are measured!) and that even at club level the NOR requires a boat to be measured it is unlikely that any of these few dark blue Infusion sails will be unmeasured. Please let us know if you are aware of any that are not measured.

Personally, I like the variation in designs in the F18 fleet. Some designs fit various crew weights/sailing styles better than others, and this is a good thing! Variation in designs and sails allows a wider range of sailors to find a setup that works for them, narrowing the gaps in the fleet, not increasing it.

My question is what is the submission and voting process for the proposed change in material list? I haven't seen anything from the international class.

I also feel like we need to stop fighting over things like the cloth list and focus on sailing. The fact that no US team that I have talked to can find a charter boat for the 2013 worlds is in my opinion much more important!

Carl, You haven't experienced the rush to get things measured just prior to a big event, but I can assure you that there is always a lot of gear out there being used regularly that is not measured until a big event like a nationals or worlds. If you have a boat in Italy and the worlds are going to be there like this year then you have a better chance of getting yourself there, maybe you have a 2009 wildcat, sail at your local club and want to take the opportunity to do a worlds. Well now you cant.... Your red sails are illegal and thats all thanks to some stupid rule change.
Lets make sure this does not happen!!

Jeff, You are exactly right! Its the ability to choose that makes this class great.

The way that the proposal has come about is the subject of great discussion at the moment, It certainly was not requested by the world council. The minutes from the meeting do not show any request for a new cloth list. They actually show a vote was taken and the 2010 cloth list was retained.

If you are looking for a charter boat perhaps I can fire a few mails around and see what i can find. Ill let you know.

Facebook is for queers

Macca, I think we have to agree to disagree about the unmeasured sails issue.
With regards my experience of the hussle and bussle of getting sails and boat ready, measured and legal prior to big events, I do have experience (all be it a very long time ago!). Clearly if you strongly believe that the1.5mm cloth is as durable as the 3mm cloth, gives no performance advantage and is actually cheaper you should really encourage Alex to join the F18 association and take up the invites to become part of the technical committee that have been offered to him and argue SI's sail cloth position there.

Carl,

Alex or myself have never been offered to join the technical committee, It would make it more difficult for the existing cartel to contuct their business if that happened...

I do believe that 1.5mil is a better cloth, and its perfectly durable and the owners of these sails will all say so. What I have a massive issue with is that there is a rule change that is proposed by the class secretary without any authourisation or request by the world council. Plus we have a technical committee that are attempting to force us to use cloth that suits them and not the class members. Its totally nuts to have the proposed list, take a look at what they are proposing:-

Dimension Polyant PE05, 3.0mil Pentex is NOT AVAILABLE, you can however request a special run of 1000m, costing around 20,000 Euro, enough to make around 50 mainsails which is more than any small loft will do in a year and a serious impact on a small lofts cashflow.

Challenge MPX06, 3.0mil Pentex is NOT AVAILABLE, I have spoken to the local distributor and it is not stocked anymore in Europe and is a special order in the USA.

Pryde F18 X Ply, 3.0mil Polyester, I have no idea where to order this, what the specifications are or what it even looks like. I certainly can't find a distributor in Europe to order from so I assume I have to order from the factory and pay the shipping for small quantities which will dramatically increase the cost.

Contender Apen 06 3.0mil Pentex, You can order this from your local distributor.


So, out of a list of 4 possible cloths proposed by the Technical committee, we find that its only possible to obtain one of these unless you front up with 20k Euro to order a special run from Dimension Polyant.

Great work hey!!

Hi Macca,

I do have a copy of an email from Dimension-Polyant categorically stating that they are able to supply PEO5 3mil for all of 2013 in all world markets. I will post an excerpt from the email once I have permission. I will also check on the details on exact availability of supply of the Challenge and Pryde cloths which as far as I have been informed will be available to all sailmakers around the world. I probably won't respond until Saturday as it is my birthday tomorrow and I intend to get thoroughly inebriated all day tomorrow (Friday) so goodnight till then!!!

Carl,
That's awesome that you have an email like that, but I spoke to DP today in their head office in germany and was told by the sales manager that its 1000m at a time or not at all. If I call my DP distributor as a sailmaker and am told that, then I dont order the stuff. Its not a stock item anymore, why are we as a class trying to use sail cloth that is a special order??? What the hell is wrong with the cloth we can order from our distributors?

Same for Challenge, I spoke to the UK distributor today, he has none in stock and will not sell anything less than an entire roll of the cloth. Its a special order from the factory in the USA. This is not conforming with the stated objectives of the class to have all cloth widely available!!! Its so unavailable that its on special order in large quantities only....

Please let me know which distributor in continental Europe I can purchase the Pryde cloth from. If I have to order from china it will make the cloth more expensive than 3Di by the time it gets to me... again, this in not in line with the widely available objective!

have a look at the DP catalogue, there is no mention of PE 05 3.0mil, its not there!! But you can order a full range of PE cloth in 1.5mil straight out of the book.

Stop trying to defend an indefensible action by the Tech committee, they are plain wrong in this case (as a few previous cases too...)

Enjoy your birthday.

Have a chat with Ben Rogers at DP about your cloth requirements....many thanks for your birthday wishes...speak again on Saturday.

Carl,
I spoke with Uwe (last name i cant spell or pronounce) at DP head office in germany, he tells me clearly that its not a stock item and must be ordered in 1000m lots. I know that i can scam some from my mate Jay at DP Sydney, but thats because he has some there from a special order for AHPC. However, I will need to get it delivered to the loft and hence the cost will be massive compared to sourcing it locally. All this is again:- outside the stated objective of widely available.

It has been removed from the 2013 brochure, its not a stock item anymore.

perhaps we should look at the reasons why the cloth manufactures are stopping production of this type of cloth!

Maybe we as a class need to realise that the sail cloth industry is moving forward and we are going backwards... Does anyone here want to sail their F18 with Dacron sails? If some people had their way then we would be going that way...

Sam,

Come in France and will see how you're in the fleet ;-) Last world show old F18 countries are still ahead

There is reasons to limit the sail material just think about F18 spirit.

Once again F18 is not capitalisme stuff, for your info it has been created in a sovietic country by an governement agency. The french MNA (Fédération Française de Voile) budget is over than 30% paid by the french government. That help you to understand the way that permit F18 success. Sport more important than technics developpment.


If you need a faster boat to be ahead, you miss the F18 point. Try A class or C class or AC72, there tech dev is part of the game.

F18 should be as similar as possible in order to improve sailing skill.
Unhappily some are not good enough (lazy on training ) on the water and need longer daggerboard, big hull, painted hull (to have stiffer platform) and lighter sail to replace sailing skill. That is not very interesting indeed.

And the customer pay the developpment done by the pusher.
So now you can understand better than limiting material is the genuine spirit of F18 and that is a way to limit cost and have better sport.

Here the item is on process for the member and anyone can think what he wants.

Sales representatives words are not very reliable, just keep in mind how they change about paint, first it was economic and one year after admit it was to replace gel coat dead weight.

Obviously thin sails are lighter and are performance bonus. I ask to prove that 1,5 mil offer the same characteristics (UV, mechanic, abrasion) than 3 mil. for durability, I wait and smile.

Franck,

Quite clearly the f18 sail material is already heavily Limited.

No Aramids
No Carbon
No String
N0 3dl
No cuben
No 3di
No 2 plys
Nothing thats not on the already limited list.

You are clearly pushing the agenda of the big manufacturers. Please stop it. Its getting very old.

F18 is and has always been a development class. That is a fact.

Aido,

Viper is a very good boat and you understand what I mean by close boat. But no I'm not working for big manufacturer, neither for small ones.
My business is very far from sailing.

Read again my argumentation and you can make your opinion and may be vote.

You noticed that "clearly the f18 sail material is already heavily Limited." so F18 obviously, cannot be a development class.

A class or C Class are developpment class.
It's easy to see the difference, even the name express the path of F18: it is not "18 class" but Formula 18.

No you have it wrong. The fact that some materials are limited does not change the fact that is a development class. Its a Box rule just like the C and the A.

God Damn it whats next?? Unbelievable.

Stay calm Aido...

maybe you need to come back to NED so you can chill...

Yep everybody stay calm and just read.
The most important to understand F18 is the restriction of the second paragraph of the rules guiding principles.
Such second paragraph does not exist in A class or C class which are development class. F18 is a restriction class.
I hope you get it now.

FORMULA 18 CLASS RULES GUIDING PRINCIPLES:

The box measurement rule allows manufacturers to develop catamarans that are competitively priced yet allowing freedom to builders to develop higher levels of performance. Being open to any manufacturer allows many builders and sail makers to compete and so keep costs to a minimum.

The Class remains aware to keeping development under control, maintaining a good balance between cost and performance. Corrected crew weights allows fairer racing with more ladies involved as helms and crews.

If that is not crystal clear enough (OB for ever ), just read that:

PART II – REQUIREMENTS AND LIMIT A TIONS

The intention of these Class rules is to ensure that the boats are as alike as possible in all aspects affecting performance as F18 is a Measurement Controlled Class. The crew and the boat shall comply with the rules in Part II when racing. In case of conflict Section C shall prevail.
The rules in Part II are closed class rules where anything not specifically permitted by the Class rules is prohibited.

Developpment under hard control indeed

Excuse me franck, are you blind, or cant you read the very first sentence?

The one that says:

The BOX RULE allows manufacturers to DEVELOP catamarans that are competitively priced yet allowing FREEDOM to builders to DEVELOP HIGHER LEVELS of PERFORMANCE.

I'd say that is a pretty fair bet that having the word develop twice in the first sentence means that is a development class.

I hope you get it now.

By the way I copy to you this first sentence.

But as everybody can read this first sentence is not the only one.

The first sentence introduce only the economic aspect:

Being open to any manufacturer allows many builders and sail makers to compete and so keep costs to a minimum.

Then, as I already write the most important is the limitation:

The Class remains aware to keeping development under control, maintaining a good balance between cost and performance. Corrected crew weights allows fairer racing with more ladies involved as helms and crews.

Nobody can ignore it now. That is the main difference between development class and Formula.
One time more (in red this time), the intentions of the class rules:

PART II – REQUIREMENTS AND LIMITATIONS

The intention of these Class rules is to ensure that the boats are as alike as possible in all aspects affecting performance as F18 is a Measurement Controlled Class. The crew and the boat shall comply with the rules in Part II when racing. In case of conflict Section C shall prevail.
The rules in Part II are closed class rules where anything not specifically permitted by the Class rules is prohibited.

A Olivier like to say: it is crystal clear

The Sailcoth list has been in place for a number of years now, it is not a new development. We are all working inside the rules and the rules control the development.

What is being attempted here by the Tech Committee and the secretary of the class is the make a change to the existing rules in order to prevent one of their rivals continuing to sell class legal sails.

Once again:- this is not a development issue. It is a commercially motivated attack on a sailmaker.

I agree its not a development issue. I was merely pointing out that a DEVELOPMENT CLASS (first sentence Franck, read it) such as the F18 does not require any more restrictions on sail cloth.

In My opinion it needs the opposite. It needs a proper structure put in place so when the next generation of economical, performance sailcloths come a long that there is a proper pathway to get them introduced.

We have had a case where a cloth has been added to the list at the whim of a boat manufacturer. And now a whole bunch of previously class legal cloths are going to be removed for no reason. Its an absolute shambles. Ill tell you straight up that no one will be able to tell the difference between 3 mil and 2.5 mil film by looking at it. The new list will just cause even more problems and even greater opportunity to cheat.

Exactly!! There is nothing good to come out of this newly proposed list.

Plus, you are pointing out that there should be a process for adding new cloth, well thats exactly what the world council asked the technical committee to do!! But they took that as a green light to try and get their new list approved....

The class needs to move forward with new cloth as it develops, we are all aware that Pentex fiber cloth is getting more expensive and the manufacturers are replacing it with more durable and economical solutions, yet the muppets in the tech com are trying to force us to keep using the old and expensive stuff... not what they are meant to be doing!

Only -35% drop in 2012 for new F18, keep going on Andrew ! Development will kill F18 as popular sailing, like windsurf or Tornado. By the way do you know the thickness of the " revival" Tornado one design ? Check that it is funny. ( it is not 1,5 mil. ;-))
Sailing skills more is important than technic trick. That is the fun way. Loosing that is sad.

Is there some function in the forum to ignore someone?

Yes there is click on there name to view their profile then click on "Ignore this user"

perfect! Thanks

Hi,
My name is Jay Glaser and I am a member of the F18 TechCom so I must be a muppet. Thanks for that Macca.

This post is my opinion not that of the class.

I sail an blue Infusion with my wife Pease. (see us on the cover of Helge Sach's new cat book) Before that we sailed a Capricorn. Before that a Tcat.
I also have a really cool Guck A4 which I don't sail nearly enough.
I have been built a few (1000) catamaran sails in the past 40yrs (in 1973 sails from the loft where I was working won the Toronto Tornado Worlds). I guess this means I am really old.
I currently own an extremely small loft in SoCal and am not connected to any of the big boat builders.
I have spent some time out sailing around as well as crawling around a loft floor.

Here is my opinion.

The cloth list came from developments in the Tornado class for the 2004 Athens Games. Some of the teams came up with a cloth that was within the rule but was perceived to be expensive and fragile (Cuben Fiber). Other teams with a lot of resources had special cloth manufactured exclusively for their use (2Xply Pen).
Both of these situations were thought to be bad for the continuing health of the class so along with the F18 class the cloth list was born by asking the main sailmakers in the classes what they were mostly using.
The list has worked pretty much as hoped with cloths added as things changed. I think that the class members don't feel that anyone can get an advantage from using a special "unobtainium" cloth.
Over a year ago the was some discussion about the list and the need to update it. Some of the cloths on the list are no longer in production and there were other cloths that both cloth and sail manufacturers thought should be added.
There was also input from class measurers who that the list was too large.
Last year I started asking the main cloth manufacturers about the current and future availability of cloths on the list.
Armed with that information a decision to par down the cloth list was made.
There are plenty of arguments out there about what does and doesn't work but I made my own decision (3mil PE only for M&J 3/4 nylon for spi) based on what I thought the teams pushing off the beach trying to get into the top half of silver fleet might want not the guys going for a WC podium spot. Talking to those guys I think they enjoy the steady development in the class. Great to have self tacking jibs, spinnaker launchers, better hull designs, modern fat head mains etc but I think you would see a decline in numbers if they felt they needed to buy a new set of sails every year because they thought theirs were blown out or not out of the cool new thing. They can still get class legal sails from any loft designed for their weight and sailing conditions. The lofts can get cloth from at least 4 different manufacturers. The market is still free but by operating in a more narrow confine hopefully the perception is the sailor makes the difference and not so much the sails or the boat. We also avoid the pitfalls of the Builders classes where sailors buy lots of "identical" product looking for a small advantage.

And it is all about perception because going back to the beginning the Cuben sails were not fragile or more expensive but that idea was promoted by the teams that had it to achieve a small psych advantage. The "unobtainium" factor.

The tech com is working on a defined path for getting new cloth on the list but it is not as easy as it sounds. As the class grows there are increasing commercial pressures we need to take into account as well as responsibility to the current owners who have invested in the class.

I would like to thank Olivier Bovyn and Don Findlay for their continued hard work on behalf of the class. Without them (and many unnamed others) we would not have the chance to sail in great places with such large numbers of our friends. We need to remember those who built the sandbox we all have so much fun playing in.
Sorry about the long post.
Jay Glaser

Thanks, Jay, for taking time to wade into this thread with some unvarnished analysis.

Although Jay is right to preface this as his opinion, it should be said that in my time as a volunteer in the F18 Class, I have relied heavily on his advice. I've never found him to be anything other than candid, straightforward, and unencumbered with anything other than a desire to see the Class thrive.

Hi Jay,
I was unaware that you are on the TC, as you can see from the official class page here TC members
Its pretty hard to know whats actually going on with the TC.

I do know that we have representatives from AHPC, Ullman, NACRA/Performance sails and Hobie.

I know very well how the cloth list for the Tornado came about and it did serve its purpose for a while but as we are seeing in the F18 class we need to move with the times and progress as the cloth manufacturers progress with their products.

They simply do not want to make pentex fiber anymore as its expensive and there are better options out there for the money.

Now, I dont regard you as a muppet in any way, but I am struggling to understand why the proposed list has 3 out of the 4 cloths either completely unavailable or as a special order item. It beggars belief that this is in the best interests of the class.

I spoke to the head office of DP in germany and they confirmed to me again today (second day in a row I have spoken to them) that the PE05 3.0mil is a special order with 1000m minimum run. This is not something the class needs to have as a cloth.

Same goes for the Challenge MPX06 stuff, its just not used by any other class so they dont make the stuff anymore.

As for the Neil Pryde cloth... what the hell is it doing on there????

Every other class has moved on to newer/cheaper/better cloth and the F18 class is trying to force the old/expensive stuff on its members.

The minutes from the December meeting clearly show a request to the TC to come up with a proposal for the procedure to ADD new cloths to the list, it is not in those minutes anywhere any request to delete most of the cloths on the list and put in place some of the rarest and more expensive cloths in the market!

I have no problem at all with a new cloth list, but only if the proposal is properly circulated to the wider community and solid research is provided as to the reasons why cloths that are currently in use by some sail makers are requested to be removed. For example: if all the Sail Innovation 1.5mil sails were worn out after a season then I would think thats a fair call, but the reality is that these sails are lasting as long as any other sails you can buy. I have used my set all last year and will do the same this year (I am getting a new kite because the nylon ones are **** and wear out way too fast)

I have a massive issue with the way that this proposal has come about, it was a sneaky move by James and Don to try and get their rule change through the council only weeks after it had been flatly rejected at the council meeting.

Its worth noting that they had attempted to bundle this new cloth list and a new rule on paint into the 2013 rules approval vote, a bit like you guys in the US do with a bill in congress... you know, its a vote on some boring thing and someone sneaks a little bit on the end authorising wide spread phone tapping by the FBI...
It was luckily pulled up by those on the council who are ever wary of these tricks and the matter was settled in the meeting. So to try and get it through again under the guise of housekeeping is just plain naughty.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jay_Glaser

Pure great sailor.

Does anyone have a current Sail material list? Last published one I found was 2010.

Hi

Thats the one that is currently being used. A few minor details regarding construction of sails were updated in the last class rules. However the cloth list was left off the last version.

So now we wait for the outcome of the class vote. Shouldn't be too far off I imagine.

From what I understand the cloth list is to remain the same. I'm sure Franck would like it different (France was the only country to vote for a change)

They did add the polyester cloth that PSA asked for.

Thanks
Macca and Aido.

Is that the Orange cloth on some of the pics they have? I wondered why it wasn't used at the Australian Nationals.

Never mind I got the answer I was looking for already.