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Is the F18 Development Class or not?

Posted By: Just Sail

Is the F18 Development Class or not? - 02/11/13 01:41 PM

In light of the issues raised in 2 threads in particular I have started this topic in hopes of finding out how individuals feel about the development with in the rules of the class.
Posted By: franck

Re: Is the F18 Development Class or not? - 02/11/13 02:38 PM

The answer is in the F18 class rules. Oooops, it doesn't sound like a development class indeed.

"PART II – REQUIREMENTS AND LIMITATIONS
The intention of these Class rules is to ensure that the boats are as alike as possible in all aspects affecting performance
as F18 is a Measurement Controlled Class. The crew and the boat shall comply with the rules in Part II when racing. In case of conflict Section C shall prevail.
The rules in Part II are closed class rules where anything not specifically permitted by the Class rules is prohibited. Certification control and equipment inspection shall be carried out in accordance with the ERS except where varied in this Part.

Posted By: Karl Funk

Re: Is the F18 Development Class or not? - 02/11/13 02:50 PM

Classic false dichotomy.
Posted By: macca

Re: Is the F18 Development Class or not? - 02/11/13 03:10 PM

By Franck's reasoning i should be able to have a 6 year old child design an F18, get a group of semi trained monkeys to build it and put on some sails made by a total muppet and then have the class make rules to ensure that the rest of the fleet slows down to the pathetic speed of my mutant shitter contraption. All in the name of fairness....

dragging the fleet backwards to the lowest common denominator is not what the class is about and not what anyone with a brain wants.

I am betting that Franck voted for François Hollande and he is loving the backwards approach his President is taking to running his country too...
Posted By: samc99us

Re: Is the F18 Development Class or not? - 02/11/13 03:40 PM

FORMULA 18 CLASS RULES GUIDING PRINCIPLES:

The box measurement rule allows manufacturers to develop catamarans that are competitively priced yet allowing freedom to builders to develop higher levels of performance. Being open to any manufacturer allows many builders and sail makers to compete and so keep costs to a minimum.

The Class remains aware to keeping development under control, maintaining a good balance between cost and performance. Corrected crew weights allows fairer racing with more ladies involved as helms and crews.
Posted By: waterbug_wpb

Re: Is the F18 Development Class or not? - 02/11/13 03:49 PM

Originally Posted by macca
mutant shitter contraption.

dragging the fleet backwards to the lowest common denominator is not what the class is about and not what anyone with a brain wants.



(1) I think I just found my next boat name smile

(2) Lowest common denominator seems to be the rule in US public edumakashon, so if it works there....

(and yes, I'm being EXTREMELY sarcastic on point #2)
Posted By: Just Sail

Re: Is the F18 Development Class or not? - 02/11/13 04:33 PM

"No, the intent is to have the boats all the same speed with no speed advantage to newer designs"

If this statement were true why would anyone design new product? How is any innovation going to take place? We would be frozen in time.

Why do the top sailors sail new boats?
Posted By: samc99us

Re: Is the F18 Development Class or not? - 02/11/13 06:18 PM

Exactly, maybe now you get it??? This is a development class, otherwise people wouldn't DEVELOP new boats!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Posted By: F-18 5150

Re: Is the F18 Development Class or not? - 02/11/13 08:32 PM

If it wasn't a development class then it would be a 18ft Tornado class.
Posted By: Aido

Re: Is the F18 Development Class or not? - 02/11/13 09:56 PM

Originally Posted by macca
By Franck's reasoning i should be able to have a 6 year old child design an F18, get a group of semi trained monkeys to build it and put on some sails made by a total muppet and then have the class make rules to ensure that the rest of the fleet slows down to the pathetic speed of my mutant shitter contraption. All in the name of fairness....

dragging the fleet backwards to the lowest common denominator is not what the class is about and not what anyone with a brain wants.

I am betting that Franck voted for François Hollande and he is loving the backwards approach his President is taking to running his country too...


Ha ha ha, pure gold.
Posted By: franck

Re: Is the F18 Development Class or not? - 02/11/13 11:09 PM

Originally Posted by Aido
Originally Posted by macca
By Franck's reasoning i should be able to have a 6 year old child design an F18, get a group of semi trained monkeys to build it and put on some sails made by a total muppet and then have the class make rules to ensure that the rest of the fleet slows down to the pathetic speed of my mutant shitter contraption. All in the name of fairness....

dragging the fleet backwards to the lowest common denominator is not what the class is about and not what anyone with a brain wants.

I am betting that Franck voted for François Hollande and he is loving the backwards approach his President is taking to running his country too...


Ha ha ha, pure gold.



Pure gold easier than prove 1,5 mil is more reliable than 3 mil sails.
Andrew cannot answer so try to laugh, that is more pathetic than an very old F18 speed.

Indeed I just read the class rules that answer the question, you can choose to ignore that:

The intention of these Class rules is to ensure that the boats are as alike as possible in all aspects affecting performance as F18 is a Measurement Controlled Class.

Andrew ask me so kindly for reasonning.

First step is sport one: almost-champion need a bonus to be in front of the fleet.
That is not the F18 genuine spirit.
May be Andrew is better technician than sailor, no shame, not everybody can be a true champion.
By the way, I'm huge fan of Billy Besson and Jérémy Lagarrigue.
They're good on the water and now have a very serious technical project in a real high tech developpment class: C Class catamaran for the little America cup. High sailor skills means high technical challenge.
F18 are 180 kg. low tech boat that made the success of the class till now.

Because second step is money one. Never forget that the final customer and ordinary sailors paid for the boat and top gun developpment. F18 are here considered like smartphone.
Builders need to be in front by (respectable) business consideration.
I would better appreciate that very good technician put the money to built long last F18 and spent less money on developpment which is not the target of the class.

There I'm closer to german economics policy (and cars) than french one.













Posted By: Aido

Re: Is the F18 Development Class or not? - 02/12/13 12:27 AM

Ok hows this for proof.

From the Contender sailcloth catalougue. APEN 06 3 mil is the only laminate in their whole range to have such a high film to fibre ratio. in fact the only cloth to have a 3 mil film at all. This includes all of their high performance fabrics including kevlar and carbon.

1.5 mil is pretty much the standard film thickness across their range, and is good enough for massive yachts why does the f18 class believe that it needs to be special and require the cloth strength to come from the plastic film. It makes no sense. Some of the information i have seen come out is from people that:

(a) Dont have a full grasp on what they are talking about
(b) Just plain telling untruths because it suits their own personal adgenda.

Im a fan of Contender products but sometimes their products are hard to get. If the new list goes through, being from Australia if my local contender supplier runs out of 3mil apen, I'm screwed. I have no other options.

Sorry for the bit of a thread highjack.

No doubt the f18 is a development class. The rule cherry picking has to stop.

Obviously the major manufacturers have been caught with their pants down by Sail Innovation. Maybe they should lift their game a bit instead of trying to move the goal posts.
Posted By: Baltic

Re: Is the F18 Development Class or not? - 02/12/13 11:09 AM

Originally Posted by franck

There I'm closer to german economics policy (and cars) than french one.


I'm not sure if german economics is a role model for anything, but german cars are only that successful because they are refined with every new model.
Posted By: franck

Re: Is the F18 Development Class or not? - 02/12/13 05:04 PM

Originally Posted by Aido
Ok hows this for proof.

From the Contender sailcloth catalougue. APEN 06 3 mil is the only laminate in their whole range to have such a high film to fibre ratio. in fact the only cloth to have a 3 mil film at all. This includes all of their high performance fabrics including kevlar and carbon.

1.5 mil is pretty much the standard film thickness across their range, and is good enough for massive yachts why does the f18 class believe that it needs to be special and require the cloth strength to come from the plastic film. It makes no sense. Some of the information i have seen come out is from people that:

(a) Dont have a full grasp on what they are talking about
(b) Just plain telling untruths because it suits their own personal adgenda.

Im a fan of Contender products but sometimes their products are hard to get. If the new list goes through, being from Australia if my local contender supplier runs out of 3mil apen, I'm screwed. I have no other options.

Sorry for the bit of a thread highjack.

No doubt the f18 is a development class. The rule cherry picking has to stop.

Obviously the major manufacturers have been caught with their pants down by Sail Innovation. Maybe they should lift their game a bit instead of trying to move the goal posts.


"no doubt F18 is a developpment class" will be ok but then do not be shy: 130 kg (why 180 kg, "rule cherry picking " ? it is far too heavy on the beach), carbon mast -that has existed it was F18 high tech and it is a dead cold body-, foils of course, but not as simple as the one on Nacra 17, I like the GC32 or ETNZ system, winglet in order to fly longer and wings to look like AC72 will be the finale touch.
Nowadays who can imagine sailing with soft sails ?
Be a real developpment class, that would be great, isn't it ? ;-)

More seriously, just have a look on Tornado 2013 news.
After their class suicide by developpment, Tornado people try a revival, it is interesting to notice the argumentation.
All Tornado star I met tell me one thing: be aware to protect F18 spirit and success, do not accept sick class rules readers. There is no sailing and ordinary sailors interests there.

You may ask if they use 1,5 mil or 3 mil cool :

Tornado One Design Sails - Key Facts

One Design sails will become class legal as of 1st April 2013.

The class rules will include both sails and battens.
Advantages

The advantages of One Design sails are:

No advantage for professionals who have their own sail designs. All sailors have the same sail material to win races

No more expensive sail develop programs
Prices are locked for four years
No more extreme sails designs for light or heavy wind locations
Better quality of Sails, longer lasting sailcloth
Proven all round Sail Designs (from World and Olympic Champions)
Knowledge transfer between the sailors of all levels. The top-secrets are over, able to supply a standard tuning guide on the website
Faster sail measurement at championships

http://tornado-class.org/onedesign/onedesign.htm

May be Tornado people are in advance and their experiences explain they are wise.


Posted By: Just Sail

Re: Is the F18 Development Class or not? - 02/12/13 05:22 PM

One design sails usually end up being very expensive and of poor quality...just look at the Laser...same outdated poor quality sail for a very high price and if you want to play the game you pay for it (even though you know you are getting ripped off).
Posted By: macca

Re: Is the F18 Development Class or not? - 02/12/13 05:34 PM

Aside from the fact that One Design goes directly against the F18 guiding principals: "The box measurement rule allows manufacturers to develop catamarans that are competitively priced yet allowing freedom to builders to develop higher levels of performance"

There is the insanely funny part that the Tornado class One Design sail spec as per Ullman sails website shows that they chose 1.5mil laminate to ensure long lasting sails!!! Tornado One Design Sails

Posted By: franck

Re: Is the F18 Development Class or not? - 02/12/13 06:07 PM

Originally Posted by macca
Aside from the fact that One Design goes directly against the F18 guiding principals: "The box measurement rule allows manufacturers to develop catamarans that are competitively priced yet allowing freedom to builders to develop higher levels of performance"

There is the insanely funny part that the Tornado class One Design sail spec as per Ullman sails website shows that they chose 1.5mil laminate to ensure long lasting sails!!! Tornado One Design Sails



Andrew, dear sails dealer, you forget to notice the sentences which followed, it's sad, you loose something:

Being open to any manufacturer allows many builders and sail makers to compete and so keep costs to a minimum.
The Class remains aware to keeping development under control, maintaining a good balance between cost and performance.


and also, so sorry to repeat, but it seems some do not understand that he balance isn't in favor of developpment in F18 cass rules:

The intention of these Class rules is to ensure that the boats are as alike as possible in all aspects affecting performance as F18 is a Measurement Controlled Class

The rules in Part II are closed class rules where anything not specifically permitted by the Class rules is prohibited.


Indeed, you're right Andrew, F18 is not yet ready for OD sails, more ready now for carbon mast.

I point out the Tornado OD sails 4 days ago, difficulties to find the U website ? wink
For a so good technician like you it is a surprise.
That is one more proof that the mix of business and ordinary sailors interest isn't easy, even for Tornado people.
So it is a lesson that everyone can understand. Thank you to point it out.


It is insanely funny for ordinary sailors to wait for the proof (UV protection, mechanic and abrasive test) that 1,5 mil is better that 3 mil.
You know you can ask the answers to Pablo Soldano laugh


And may be the muppet, to use your word, are not the one you believe. Thank you, Andrew, it was fun.


Posted By: Karl_Brogger

Re: Is the F18 Development Class or not? - 02/12/13 06:24 PM

Yawn.
Posted By: franck

Re: Is the F18 Development Class or not? - 02/12/13 06:25 PM

Originally Posted by Just Sail
One design sails usually end up being very expensive and of poor quality...just look at the Laser...same outdated poor quality sail for a very high price and if you want to play the game you pay for it (even though you know you are getting ripped off).


So sorry for this little trap but there, as notice Andrew, they used 1,5 mil. as "poor quality sails" using your own words.

Except that the argumentation was for explaining developpment class is not the obvious way. And each time there is economic interests, ordinary customers sailors should be aware and have many advices.

Posted By: Karl_Brogger

Re: Is the F18 Development Class or not? - 02/12/13 06:30 PM

Dacron, and workmanship has a lot more to do with quality than the material.
Posted By: macca

Re: Is the F18 Development Class or not? - 02/12/13 06:43 PM

Does anyone have a clue what Franck is on about???
Posted By: orphan

Re: Is the F18 Development Class or not? - 02/12/13 06:52 PM

Yes, The WOUTER of the F18 class.
Posted By: macca

Re: Is the F18 Development Class or not? - 02/12/13 07:46 PM

Wouter actually made arguments that you could follow if not agree with
Posted By: ksurfer2

Re: Is the F18 Development Class or not? - 02/12/13 07:50 PM

I tried to stay out of this, I really did, but now I just can't help myself. F-18 is a box rule or formula class. Manufacturers big, or small, or home builders are free to build a boat that they feel best optimizes their products perfromance within the limits of the rule. Over time, these manufactures will make tweaks to their designs (within the rule) that they feel will further optimize performance. It is up to the consumer to decide what product they feel best meets their needs or has best optimized performance.

I can hold my own in my local fleet, I win some, I lose some. I was lucky enough to make it to worlds in LA last year and sailed well enough to make it to gold fleet. In any given race, there were boats of all makes, models, vintages both in front of me and behind me. I had moments of glory in the front of the fleet and periods of dispair at the back. This was allways based on my performance, not that of my boat.

Further, a year ago, I sold my 08 Infusion and picked up a shiny new C2. At a regatta a month ago, I was soundly trounced by my old boat. Nothing to do with either boat, I was out sailed by the crew on my old boat.

The F18 formula works! painted boats, gel coat boats, 1.5 mil sails, 3.0 mil sails.....the performace gains are negligible, it will still be up to the sailor on the boat to win the race. Need proof.....I'm your proof!
Posted By: rehmbo

Re: Is the F18 Development Class or not? - 02/12/13 09:22 PM

Hmm.... Box Rule, SMOD, MMOD. Not sure if there is such a thing as MMOD, but it seems to be the direction espoused by Franck.

Regardless, strict OD classes tend to be a price/technology/design snapshot in time. As these things (especially strength of materials) improve and move on, the class risks becoming out of touch and withering away.

I think a merit of the box rule is it allows more flexibility to adapt and stay relevant. However, the box also puts limits in place to prevent the class from becoming one where the biggest pocketbook wins.
Posted By: waterbug_wpb

Re: Is the F18 Development Class or not? - 02/14/13 05:22 PM

Originally Posted by ksurfer2
I was soundly trounced by my old boat.


ouch... that had to hurt almost as bad as a boot in danutz
Posted By: John Williams

Re: Is the F18 Development Class or not? - 02/14/13 07:30 PM

Jay, the guy trims a pink kite. You think he's afraid of a boot in the nuts? Jesus - pity the boot. Karl clangs when he walks.
Posted By: Karl_Brogger

Re: Is the F18 Development Class or not? - 02/14/13 09:26 PM

When he sails too, its unnerving to listen to for 50 miles straight. You'd think a harness and rushing/firehose pounding water would dull that sound, but nope.
Posted By: rexdenton

Re: Is the F18 Development Class or not? - 02/20/13 07:50 PM

Originally Posted by ksurfer2
The F18 formula works! painted boats, gel coat boats, 1.5 mil sails, 3.0 mil sails.....the performace gains are negligible, it will still be up to the sailor on the boat to win the race. Need proof.....I'm your proof!

Second that. I've seen an older boat I thought was stupid slow go from the back of the fleet to mid fleet, with a change of owner, and a fast boat go from the front to the mid just as fast.

Further, I sail with my son. We kinda suck, and are always mid fleet, (or worse) against some of the finest sailors in the world, who inhabit our fleet. I always thought our poor performance was somehow realted to the boat. Then, I had a champ come aboard, trimming sails and calling tactics. During that race, I lead in three races, not just one upwind leg, but for several legs. I crashed twice while leading (got a bit greedy once, miscommunicated on the other), and had one third place. That was enough proof for me to realize...

...It ain't my friggin boat...
Posted By: waterbug_wpb

Re: Is the F18 Development Class or not? - 02/21/13 03:10 PM

Originally Posted by rexdenton

...It ain't my friggin boat...


+1

Posted By: franck

Re: Is the F18 Development Class or not? - 06/26/13 04:05 PM

Originally Posted by macca
Aside from the fact that One Design goes directly against the F18 guiding principals: "The box measurement rule allows manufacturers to develop catamarans that are competitively priced yet allowing freedom to builders to develop higher levels of performance"

There is the insanely funny part that the Tornado class One Design sail spec as per Ullman sails website shows that they chose 1.5mil laminate to ensure long lasting sails!!! Tornado One Design Sails



http://www.ullmangz.it/products/multihull/tornado-od/

Just check again Andrew cool
Tornado OD sails are using as Material: Apen 6 3.0 mil white from Contender.

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