What about the old Nacra 18 squared? 11' beam??

There must be Reasonably Knowledgeable Individuals (RKIs) who can set me straight on the long lost NACRA 18 Squared... from legend and lore I gather that:

) It was produced from circa 1980 to circa 1987...?

) Has an 11' beam! (Does it telescope, or tilt way up for trailering???)

) Is designed for a single-handing 18m^2 class that is no longer active?

) Uses the exact same hulls and daggers as the present day NACRA 5.5 (18') uni/sloop boats...?

) In pics, looks like the gooseneck/boom attachment is 2mm above the front crossbeam... gotta belly crawl to the other side?


I'm thinking there may be some well cared for garage queens around that would make for a screaming fast rec boat??

Nacra 18 sq....... Nacra's one design version of the 18 square development class which saw 18 sq's with C Class wings on board.

Boats no longer produced however still many in back yards if you look hard enough. Would not expect to pay too much for one as the class has been dead for quiet a while.

Very powerfull boat upwind, but lacks horsepower off the breeze. Quiet heavy for a one man boat at more than 155 kg or 345 lbs. 11 foot wide and is tilted on the trailer like the Tornado. Many trailer set ups used a winch on the front (like winch on power boat trailers to winch boat up) of the trailer to winch it up on the tilt so it could be easily done with one man.

Also due to the weight, beam and mast height (31 foot)..... You had to be a big man to right it.

There she is... WICKED! Is that boom attached to the FRONT CROSSBAR, or what!?!?

Nacra's one design version of the 18 square development class which saw 18 sq's with C Class wings on board.
Wings on this boat? Cool!... What are C class wings?

Would not expect to pay too much for one as the class has been dead for quiet a while.
Yeah, but didn't they start sporting some spendy Mylar mains towards the end? And those trailers can't be cheap either...?

Very powerfull boat upwind, but lacks horsepower off the breeze.
I think that's a stock description of every cat in the world... until a spi/chute is added. ANY REASON THIS BOAT CAN'T TAKE A SPI-GENNY POLE??

Quiet heavy for a one man boat at more than 155 kg or 345 lbs.
So it's like a Hobie 16 with a thermos on board... or about the same as a H-17... and WAY lighter than a H-18.

11 foot wide and is tilted on the trailer like the Tornado.
Do the cradles/carriage rotate with the boat?

I used to own the Nacra 18 Square, but never used a tilt trailer. The picture you see above is Dick Lemke’s boat and is for sale through The Cat House in Michigan. It has been modified from stock to allow trailering without having to re-lace the trampoline each time it is disassembled/reassembled, and made the trailering/setup process easier. In the stock boat, there were two fore-and-aft tubes that went from front to rear beam. These are used to prevent the beams from rotating. On the boat in the picture, these fore-and-aft tubes and their fittings were moved outboard to along side the hulls. The trampoline was modified by moving the sleeves for these tubes outboard. Now the boat is put back together and the trampoline is laced and tightened. From this point onward, the trampoline assembly, including both beams and both tubes, could be removed in tact. Now the boat can be easily put onto a trailer that is no wider than about 7’ wide, the distance from the front to back beam. To do this, the trampoline is turned 90 degrees when trailering. We avoided the tilt trailer because one of the Michigan fleet used the tilt trailer and it got blown over while trailering, destroying the boat.



Mine was a 1982. I don’t remember when Nacra stopped offering it.



It is designed for single-handing and competed as a Category II 18 Square when I was racing mine.



The hulls were slightly modified with the introduction of the N5.5 Sloop and Uni. The 18 Square had a visible seam along the bottom and the beam spacing was a little different. When the 8-1/2’ wide Sloop and Uni came out the seam disappeared (cleaned up, which I did to my boat when I repainted it) and the spacing of the beams was different.



Since you were at the back of the tramp when tacking, the crawl was not difficult.



The only concerns I would have if adding the spi-genny is that the sail needs to come around the forestays, making for a very long pole, and that the rudders seem to have significant weather helm, even at the extreme adjustments allowed by the stock system. With a single-handed spinnaker boat, you need to let go of the helm while raising or lowering the spinnaker. The rudder system on the newer Nacras deals with this extremely well, but the old system does not without significant modification. On the plus side, I have seen the modern rudder system adapted to the late-model N5.5 Uni.



I did not have that much trouble righting mine, but I weighed about 210 lbs. Dick weighed a lot less than I did.



These are double surfaced sails, like the Stars and Stripes catamaran that defended America’s Cup in 1988. The most famous of the 18 Squares, “Wild Turkey” had the wing, but it was a pain because it was taken down and put into a trailer each time it came to the beach. It took about four of us to do it each evening at the North American Championships in Traverse City in 1987. That was the only Championship “Wild Turkey” competed in that it didn’t win, losing to Jon Lindahl on “LCD”. It was a very close and exciting battle between the two boats/skippers.

Guys:

Dennis Palin races a boat he built in Portsmouth in Div 6 and his DEADLY. He may respond to this.

Doug Snell
Hobie 17
Soon to be Mystere 4.3
www.tcdyc.com

Sparky, thanks for taking the time! Wait, I have to go put on my 18-squared theme music mix tape, with extra bass tracks, entitled "Menacing Dance of the Wicked CAT", LOL!


Excellent idea and modification, plus out of knees-way!... how'd it work out on the water, re: tramp sag and torsion resistance? i.e. I can see why the factory would place them farther inboard, both to provide shorter unsupported tramp spans, and to have the torsion-resistance members closer to where the mast is "working" the crossbeam.


Makes an impression, those type o' things...

Uses the exact same hulls and daggers as the present day NACRA 5.5 (18') uni/sloop boats...?


Ahh soo... so the beams are only 7' apart, moving the mast aft, making the long bows even longer--WICKED! I guess when current PerfCats sales lit claims of the 5.5 Uni "The hulls are identical to the 5.5sl and the 18 sq, which provide greater speed and buoyancy.", they are talking about the wetted parts, not the topsides... check.


True, but as a rec boat, I shall sometimes have a "crew"... but since no jib, they are free to go 'round the front of the mast--extra thrill--LOL! Perhaps a bridle-foil (compression member) and big net cruising tramp between the bows? ;')

Seriously though, that boom APPEARS to be right on the front crossbeam!



Key insights from experience on the rudders. (Is it just me, or do Prindle rudders look more "serious" than NACRA's?) Also, due to no jib and unsupported LOOOONG bows, those bridles Vee WAY up before joining... hmmm... oh well, never been a downwind/chute fanatic anyway... downwind's a chance to relax the biceps and re-hydrate...


I doubt I would ever go deploying and dousing and all that spi-stuff while single-handing... though I got fairly proficient at knee-toe steering the P-16 while lying out on the bow, paddling home in DEAD air.


Oh, I thought that was a solid wing. Cool either way. The 18-sq just SEEMS like a platform with a lot of potential... and a lot of parts still in production (assuming mast and crossbeams are same extrusion as current 5.5s, just cut longer...?)

I'm pretty sure I saw an 18-SQ smokin' across Lake McConaughy ("Big Mac") in Nebraska many, many moons ago... he flew the hull too high and it blocked out the sun! We were like "hmmm, tramp way wider than it is long, WTH is it?"... understandably I had trouble overtaking him in my P-16, to get a closer look.

We never had any issues with tramp sag or the beams rotating with the change to the platform.



Actually, I think you could get the 18 Square when they brought out the N5.5 Sloop and Uni. At that time, they all used the same hulls.



When I took my wife for cruises on the Square, I just asked her to go to the other side before I tacked, tacking and following her under the boom as she got through. I think the boom actually attaches to the front beam, because the mast rotation was a Positive rotation system, unlike today's rotation limiting systems. We only adjusted rotation for going downwind, rotating to 90 degrees or more, and left rotation alone for upwind. If I were designing today's 18 Square, I would have carbon mast (maybe off of F17 or N5.5 Uni), use rotation limiting system and have the boom attach to the back of the mast. I would read the current rules to make sure that the category II still has a minimum weight that I wouldn't go under with the carbon mast. A new square top mainsail would be a significant improvement, also. On the other hand, just buying Lemke's boat would be an inexpensive and fun way to go, especially if I wasn't going to campaign (race extensively) the boat.

On the other hand, just buying Lemke's boat would be an inexpensive and fun way to go, especially if I wasn't going to campaign (race extensively) the boat.

Oh, didn't know it was still on the market... thought that was an expired ad.

The details say it's a "Category III"... whatever that means...?

I have 1.8 Nacra Squares; one is "old school" and race ready. It has the old thinwall Nacra mast extrusion, seams on the hulls, a straight (unswept) spreader, and a Dacron pinhead sail. The boom currently attaches to mast about a foot above the deck. It has 6:1 mainsheet, 3:1 rotation limiter, and (somewhat interestingly) 3:1 traveller control.

The other one has the hulls de-seamed and in the process of being painted; it's supposed to have 10' beams but the ones I have now are 11'; and it has a 32' Marstrom Tornado aluminum mast. I've had a new sail made for it, out of smoke-grey Pentex, which is indistinguishable, except for size, from a modern A-class sail. The boom will be attached to the mast on this one too.

I have two telescoping trailers which require disassembly of the boats right now, but am setting up a tilter based on Mike Dobbs' "Full Tilt" Tornado trailer. Google "Dobbs full tilt" to see pictures. Also, Mike Coleman's 18 Square pages are still up somwhere, I think maybe on geocities.

I'm glad to have found this thread...I don't normally read the F18 forum!

Edit: Palin's Square is a copy of Lindahl's. Also, Lindahl's boat broke up a couple weeks ago in Houston, while being test-sailed by a (potential) new owner. Sad.

Sad, indeed! Jon made some really nice Squares. I saw two of them campaigned in the 80's in CRAM. His last one came back to CRAM several years ago being campaigned by his son, Ian. The last I heard of that one was when it had some type of failure while being pushed pretty hard at one of our regattas. Still, I saw his boats put up with a great deal of abuse in the hands of people other than Jon. I would have great confidence in Jon's work. I wonder if the one that failed while sailing in CRAM is the same one that failed in Texas, indicating that the repair may not have been all it could be.

Here is a link to the ad:
http://www.cathouse1.com/
Select the Pre Owned section, then select the picture of the "Fujitsu" boat. The boat appears to still be on the market.



I don't know, exactly. Coleman's web site might explain the rules, or maybe Dennis Palin could jump in and talk about the differences in Categories. If you contact the guy at the above link, he may even know. When I sailed in the class, it was either Category I, limited only by length (18') and sail area (18 square meters), or Category II, limited by minimum weight (330#), circumference of mast (20" max.), and the length and sail area.

Andrew, you are HARDCORE on the 18 squared!... sounds like you're getting ready to sell one... yes, you should listen to that "sell" voice in your head...

Judging from your trailer situ, it sounds like you are not a believer in the aforementioned tube-tramp modifications?

That gooseneck on the crossbeam instead of the mast sounds novel, but it seems like normal mast rotation would be stressing the lower battens, and perhaps require a lot of re-adjusting of inhaul and outhaul...?

PS: "Dobbs full tilt" brings up no images on Google, but "Tornado tilt trailer" does, Dobbs at the top o' the list!

Offhand, who are the tramp makers who could make a modified (tubes outboard) tramp from in-house patterns, i.e. without sending them an old tramp?

Salty Dog did my modifications back in the 80's, but they took the existing tramp and just moved the existing socks that the tubes ran through. I don't know if they took a pattern from them...I just told them where I wanted the socks to be moved to. I am sure any trampoline maker could make up a set from your own drawing. Any deviation from ideal can be taken up by the lacing down the center of the tramp.

For my N5.5U that I was buying a replacement trampoline for, I purchased a bias-cut trampoline from Salty Dog. This one eliminated the need for any lacing except at the rear, which made for a really nice trampoline. By the patterns being cut on the bias, when you tensioned the tramp at the rear, it also tightened the sides. No longer any need to go through all that tightening of the center lacing from underneath the boat and the end result was really sweet! The reason most companies don't do this is that the material from which the trampolines are made make it more difficult to get the bias-cut tramps out of the roll...just more material required from the roll to get the end item.

If I were designing a trampoline that slotted into the hulls and front beam, having a separate strip at the rear, I would go bias-cut and eliminate the cost of adding all those grommets and line for center lacing. It seems all the new boats lace to the hulls and rear beam strip. This sure eliminates the problems of pulling bolt ropes out of the slots in the hulls and makes the molding of hulls less complex and with less material. It is probably the right direction to go.

Lake Norman Yacht Club here in North Carolina still has an "active" fleet of 18 Squares. I was able to sail one this weekend for the 2nd time. It's a lot of boat for one person, but a lot of fun as well.

Was your Lake McConaughy experience in about 1989? I used to have square #195. I moved to Denver from Dallas and bought Jack Tunnel's square. Lake McConaughy was one of the few places your could really stretch the sqaure's legs. I raced in Pensacola in the 1990 Nacra Nationals and sent the boat home with a new owner to the active square fleet in the Carolina's.

Heard there was some 18 Square discussion and questions here. I was class secretary from 1983 to about 1994 or 1995 when the class went inactive. How can I help with answers to questions?

Let's start here:
1. My boat, a pretty much stock NACRA production boat had tramp modified to allow it to be trailered completely lace up - which cut nearly 20 minutes from setup time.
2. The boat was a Category II which had minimum weight at 345 lbs. Jon Lindahl's boats were for the most part - Category I boats, and lightest that I saw weighed at a North Americans event was about 260 lbs. - construction at the time was veneer ply over plastic honeycomb core. Masts were aluminum (often Tornado masts that had been cut and tapered. Rudders and boards were honeycomb/carbon and ultra light compared to the solid glass boards from the factory.
3. Most factory boats had the boom mounted on the lower rear of the front cross beam, just above the tramp. Combined with boom end sheeting, and the mainsheet also acted as a vang.
4. Terrific pointing boat upwind, and could always use more sail area downwind. Very s-m-o-o-t-h ride in waves and chop, but the boat could bite you in power reaches.
5. I had a lever attached to bottom of front cross beam that trailed back under tramp. In case of capsize (only once) the lever combined with the mast full of packing foam "peanuts' came back up without problem.
6. Hulls were very buoyant - but not as fat/full as the Coyote. Also much less rocker than the Coyote which made tacking it a "pay attention" manouver.
7. Chris Cordes from Florida ran a chute on his 18 Square for one (or more) of the Mug Races. As I recall, he indicated no problems, but felt the mast walls were a bit thin to do it every day.
8. Hulls started out as Unicorn/Sol Cat in mid/late 1970's. Then NACRA (Roland brothers) moved to the NACRA 5.2 hulls at 10 feet beam. Finally they built the Square to new hull sizes with more buoyancy 11 foot beam, and introduced them around 1980-1981. These remained the standard (glass only - no mat, no core material) until approximately the late 1980's or early 1990's when the hull shape emulated the NACRA 5.5 Uni, and foam cores became the normal build. Dacron sails were changed to Mylar/Kevlar - although Randy Smyth, Skip Elliott, Henry Bossett, and Brad Johannson began introducing Mylar sails, and then moved to Mylar/Kevlar.
9. Gino Morrelli, Brad Johannson, Fred Kilbourn, and John Lindahl were the leaders in boat building and design. A few other west coast builders also took part, but their number of boats remained fairly small - usually only one or two boats. Kim Higgs of Saginaw Michigan and Jon Lindahl were two who showed up in the mid 1980's with reversed bows - common today in the "A" Class - but were a new idea back then.
10. As Les notes - the solid wing built by Hubbard, Brad Johannson and Craig Riley came onto the scene and easily became the "class symbol". After a couple of years of heavy effort, Lindahl finally was able to win a North Americans with his soft-sail boat (sail by Henry Bossett) over the solid wing of Craig's boat. Wild Turkey was a test bed for the C Class during those years. It had a double element flap - and by modern C Class wing standards was a dinosaur. Dave Ward, another Michigan sailor also experimented with a wing mast sail (huge mast) but he never managed to get it dialed in. Also, the class went up to 13 foot beams, but the stress and bending of the cross tubes made trim and tuning hard to do. Most boats dropped back tot he 11-12 foot beams.

There are a lot of reasons why the class died - mostly because NACRA (then Performance Catamarans) elected to end the build and furnish of the wide cross tubes. Supercat with their 12 foot wide, 20 foot long boats were showing up with mega sail area, and with NACRA factory not building or taking special orders, there were fewer and fewer home builders. Also - folks like Denis Palin were sailing the old NACRA Squares but couldn't get parts - and obviously new boats no longer provided older used boats. (By the way - Denis won the 1983 North Americans Category II sailing the heaviest boat there - at 400 lbs. I recall he did in a few of the lighter Category I boats that year - so he IS a wonderful sailor!

Hopefully this will answer questions - but if not, you can email me or post here. I will try to watch a bit closer. And yes, the Fujitsu/Michelob boat from the Cathouse web site, was sold and delivered to the new owner in early July. It will be sailing in the Albany, New York area. Had I not had a slight stroke that took away strength on my left side, it would still be sailing in Michigan and Minnesota.

so I have the mast from a tornado and the n5.2 hulls and the beams from an marstrom89T, the question then is do I use the whole mast or cut it down as it is at about 31ft now. Also what wind range is going to max out the thinner 5.2 hulls compared to the 5.5 thanks.

If the mast is aluminum, and cash is no problem, you can have someone taper the upper portion of the mast to reduce windage. Assuming you are going to use the 5.2 hulls with the 10 foot wide beams from the Tornado, you "could" leave it at 31 feet but remember that it is a lever trying to pull you over into a capsize or pitchpole.

Are you running a standard 18 Square sail - or the 5.2 main? Depending on answer, I would reduce mast length to match your sail - and remove from base of mast rather than up above. Length to fit the sail luff plus about 10-14 inches for downhaul, boom if you mount gooseneck to mast, etc.

The only difference is your 5.2 hulls will be less full at the bow - and a bit less freeboard to water. There really will be few problems with the hulls except downwind, where you may see some nosediving - especially in waves. With flat water and the mast shortened to fit your main, 12-15 knots should pose few problems - after that - (upper teens) you probably will see some "issues" but if you are tall or a bit heavy in weight, holding it down won't be any more of an issue than on the big "T". When I was actively racing, I was about 5'7" and weighed about 165-170. Winds over 18 were a handful for me. Depending on your weight - you could see the upper limits at around 15 - 18 and after that it will be just experience and knowing how the boat handles. Big waves will probably result in a very wet ride.

I only saw one original 5.2 18 Square race, the guy was from Iowa, and he did well except in the light stuff. Never did measure his sail and his mast was probably around 28-29 foot. At the time, he was an old fart - probably like I am today to some - but was also on the small side physically. Jon Lindahl, and others were in the mid-five foot 7-9 inch range and were probably weighing in at around 155 - 175 or so. We also had a few tall guys who did marginally better from the wire in heavier air...... <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I did bought a 18 square with a spin in 2004 from nacra
An Inter 20 carbon mast came with the boat.

denis (101)

Hi Dennis, I would like to find out more info about your factory 18 square. Care to share details? I didn't know Nacra would still build them.
More info and pictures would be great!
Thanks
Ed
Nacra 18 SQ

Hi Ed, I must admitted that NACRA was quite reluctant to take this custom order. But because it was put in the middle of the winter and with the good job done by our local NACRA agent, Jean Marc Proulx, they finally agreed to build the boat. NACRA 5.5 hulls, 11 foot wide, inter 20 carbon mast with boom and 21 meters spinnaker with snuffer. Of course, any custom project will bring its share of problem but thanks to NACRA and Jean Marc for their fantastic support, they have been standing behind their product all the time. I am really happy with the boat now.

Dennis... more questions!
Are those beams and boom carbon or black anodized?
Is that a paddle in the aft end of the boom?
If you hadn't gone with a spin, could you have used a lighter carbon mast from the Nacra/Inter line-up?
Ball park cost?
Now that you have sailed it, what would you change?
It's a great looking boat.
I wish Nacra still promoted it but I can surely understand why they don't.
Thanks,
Ed

Hi Ed
The beams are .125" thick aluminium (standart is .070") heavier but much stiffer.
The boom is standart F18 product.
Carbon was too expensive regards the weigh saving.
I could have choose the inter 17R mast (30 feet instead of 32) but the efficiency of the mainsail would have dropped by 3%. You would be surprised how light is the inter20 mast.
Total cost is about the same as an F18. Extra for the mast was about 1500 $cdn.
I still have to change the forestay to get more mast rake. Also I want to bolt together the beams and their attachment because, altough everything is thight, the beam rotate.
The boat is just fine and the spinnaker run really increase the of the 18 square.

denis 101

is this thread still alive? I have an older 18sq (the lighter one), glass only with the split tubes for stiffness, thin mast section etc. I've made carbon daggers and rudders for it. the boat is completely refubished, new paint and graphics, all aluminum has been anno'd, a new sail from skip elliot. the sail is oversized, i'm not sure the exact sq footage, but is not class legal, but is way more powerful. its square top, and is 8 ft long at the bottom. I have a 8:1 harken main sheet for it and it has all new hardware. I modded the beam tubes to the outside, and had a new tramp made for it so it doesnt have to be disasembled. I made a new telescoping trailer as well. to make a long story longer, i'm interested in selling, or trading the boat. can anyone give me an idea of what it may be worth??? thanks! J

any 18 squares in the uk, i would love one

Denis, do you know how much your square weighs? Do you know of anyone else that is going to attempt the same with Nacra? Can you also clarify you cost with Nacra? Is the main custom?

It is a great looking boat and exciting that you were able to get Nacra to step up. It seems like they would be more willing to build after working the kinks out on your boat.... Any other details you can provide?

Thanks, Dan.

How about using Infusion hulls to handle all that power better. You would get the gybing boards and new ruders then too.
Ultimate singlehander or what!
paul

Hello,
You seem to be WELL informed on the 18 Squared cats. Can you tell me anything about the Supercat 18? I was told it was in this class but nothing else. Other than mine, I've seen only one and it was in Brazil.

It happened I have one but I have no confirmation that this is the square 18 NACRA.
It was build 1977-1979. The tilt trailer was destroyed by corrosion and I have build a new one.
Can anybody help to identify the NACRA I have?

That's not an 18 square- that's an Alpha cat- It is 18 foot long and built by the Roland's and was the predecessor to the NACRA's- the stern and beams are essentially same but bow is (obviously!) different!

Kirt

I'm looking for more info on active 18 squares, we are having a bit more interest in these boats in Aus, I have Bob Forbes one that had the solid wing sail when he was going for the speed records, but now is carbon 32ft tapered mast with big square top sail and hope to get it on the water this season. I've got a couple of mates interstate with 18 squares. I have another mate that is looking for a project 18 square, so if you know anyone with an unused 18 square could you put them onto this thread or pm me. Thanks in advance for any help or info

Jeffs - I've got a crisp 1987 18x2 that I'd part with. She's a blast in high wind, but is a little wide to navigate our local bouy field. It's located in Minnesota so it might be a bit difficult to get it to Australia, pm me if you're interested.

Thanks for the reply but I reckon that ones a bit far away for us, I reckon they are the ideal boat for a big fella looking for a one up boat when the crews not available for the other boats

Cool boat!