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Smaller sail for Hobie 16

Posted By: mako

Smaller sail for Hobie 16 - 12/30/07 01:50 AM

I sail a 16 in Pamlico sound at Hatteras. Lots of good steady wind. No problems around 15MPH. Above 20MPH this boat is a little much for a comfortable sail.Has anyone fitted a smaller main for high wind days. Would a sail and boom from a 14 work instead of reefing the 16 sail? I may buy a 16sail and cut it at the reef point. Does reefing the 16 sail tame this boat in say 20mph winds?
Posted By: Tri_X_Troll

Re: Smaller sail for Hobie 16 - 12/31/07 02:53 PM

I believe the mast is a different height, however I am not sure as to all the differences.

I think the different height mast would cause the most problems as it would not have the "catch" for the shorter sail.

I know that my comp tip mast does not have the bottom "halyard catch" (probably the wrong term) for when the sail is reefed. Apparently the older non-comp tip masts have a second catch.

From what I understand, reefing the sail should depower it quite a bit? Have you tried it with a reef, yet?

Cheers,
Ryan
Posted By: Karl_Brogger

Re: Smaller sail for Hobie 16 - 12/31/07 03:11 PM

With the wire halyards there was a 2nd slug to catch.
Posted By: mako

Re: Smaller sail for Hobie 16 - 12/31/07 08:26 PM

I sail from a dock and out of a canal system. I go most of the way out with an electric motor. When I hit the open water I need to get the sails up quickly and get going to keep from getting blown into shallow water. I have added a roller jib and I replaced the main halyard with a kevlar rope which ties off at the bottom of the mast. Everything works well. The problem is this boat is overpowered for a comfortable sail. I added a quick reefing system but the thing is still to messy. I would think a sail sized to the conditions would make nice setup. Sailboards and kite sailers use equipment sized for conditions. I would like to find a 14 sail and boom for a higher wind setup. A cutoff 16 sail would be another possibility.

If I want speed, the big sail goes up. If I want a more relaxing sail or the wind is up, the smaller sail. I'll bet even with a small sail it will still be fast. I pitchpoled twice last year under the following conditions, 20mph wind and having to sail downwind in a narrow channel. Nowhere to turn. Once the sail is up you are off like a rocket. When I look back I should have reefed at home or got into open water with the jib only.

Anyone have any comments on sailing a 16 with reefed sail?
Posted By: _flatlander_

Re: Smaller sail for Hobie 16 - 12/31/07 09:17 PM

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Anyone have any comments on sailing a 16 with reefed sail?
Yup, raced once with a reefed main in 35mph and gusting stuff. Boat was very controlable, able to drive upwind with only me (175#) single trapped. Crew was on tramp with both hands holding the un-cleated jib, and there's the problem in too much wind...a cleated jib and a strong gust will knock over a 16 <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: Jeff Peterson

Re: Smaller sail for Hobie 16 - 01/01/08 08:09 PM

I've always been reluctant to reef. I would like to try it, but then I get concerned about the sail. Looking at the reef grommets in the sail, I'm concerned the stress at those limited points could be damaging to the sail, if done frequently. -So why get into a habit that may damage the sails ? Am I being a scaredy cat ?
Posted By: Mary

Re: Smaller sail for Hobie 16 - 01/02/08 09:13 AM

I wonder if a Wave sail would work. The Hobie 16 mainsail is 148 sq. ft., and the Wave main is 95 sq. ft.
Posted By: CMerrell

Re: Smaller sail for Hobie 16 - 01/02/08 01:18 PM

I don't think a Wave sail would work well. I think the loose foot of the Wave sail and differing foot lengths (Wave vs. H16) would create some funky sheeting angles. IMHO the ideal solution would be a H14 sail on a H16 boom. That solves downhaul/outhaul/sheeting angle problems. The stock halyard could be extended with a wire rope pigtail.

Somebody has to have done this before. Maybe a shout out on the Open Forum board is in order?
Posted By: Mary

Re: Smaller sail for Hobie 16 - 01/02/08 01:53 PM

When you reef a Hobie 16 sail, you also have a shorter foot length and, basically, a loose foot. It's just a matter of tying down the clew to the boom and pulling it tight with a line to the end of the boom. Wouldn't matter that it is shorter than the boom, would it? The fact that the Hobie 16 HAS a boom is what would make it possible to use a smaller sail. No?
Posted By: mako

Re: Smaller sail for Hobie 16 - 01/02/08 07:09 PM

The 16 is the best choice for Pamlico sound. With no centerboards I can go anywhere. Lots of steady wind but 10 to 20 MPH days are common and the days I want to be out. If I look at the side view of all the cats, new and old, it looks like the 16 has lot of sail and the mast is farther forward than the others. At anything over 15mph it seems that the lee pontoon rides low, being forced down by lots high sail. I understand the Prindle sails more docile in heavy wind with its more flotation up front. I would think a 14 sail on a 16 wouldn't be much slower than a 16 sail and a lot easier to sail. I don't like the 16 sail reefed. It is sloppy and the stress is on individual points. I am going to look for a 14 sail and give it a try. I would buy the sail and boom for a dedicated setup if I can find one. Pamlico sound if full of sailboards and kites when the wind is 20mph. I would like to be out there but a full sail 16 would not be my first choice.
Posted By: CMerrell

Re: Smaller sail for Hobie 16 - 01/03/08 01:46 PM

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When you reef a Hobie 16 sail, you also have a shorter foot length and, basically, a loose foot. It's just a matter of tying down the clew to the boom and pulling it tight with a line to the end of the boom. Wouldn't matter that it is shorter than the boom, would it? The fact that the Hobie 16 HAS a boom is what would make it possible to use a smaller sail. No?


We may be talking two different scenarios. I assumed the H16 boom would not be used with a Wave sail. In that case, the main sheet would attach to the clew and, given that the foot of the Wave sail is shorter than a H16 sail, the sheets would angle forward and tend to tension the leech more than the foot.

I think you are suggesting using the Wave sail and attaching it to the boom in some fashion. I agree that would function similar to a reefed down H16 sail.

However, since the H14 and H16 mains are so similar (e.g. have a foot rope, use the same boom extrusion), I think a H14 sail would make the "neatest" set up. I have not used a H16 sail with reef points in many years and my experience with the Wave is limited so my discussion is all theoretical. Some real world results would be interesting.
Posted By: drbinkle

Re: Smaller sail for Hobie 16 - 01/07/08 01:24 AM

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Pamlico sound if full of sailboards and kites when the wind is 20mph. I would like to be out there but a full sail 16 would not be my first choice.


Keep using the full size sail, find a heavier crew and don't be scared to push the boat. Make those sailboarders and kiters realize what they're missing. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: mako

Re: Smaller sail for Hobie 16 - 01/07/08 08:27 PM

Derek, where are you sailing on the outer banks? I haven't seen many Hobies on Pamlico sound for many years now. Maybe like one or two.
Posted By: drbinkle

Re: Smaller sail for Hobie 16 - 01/07/08 11:21 PM

Albemarle or Currituck sounds usually. I live in Kill Devil Hills so Pamlico is a little far south for me.
Posted By: rictorn

Re: Smaller sail for Hobie 16 - 01/19/08 07:30 PM

i have only sailed a few times with a reefed hobie 16 but when i have the boat has sailed realy well, i i were you i would get a old hobie 16 sail and get a sailmaker to cut it down to the reefing point then the wire will still clip in and the boat will sail well, i sailed the boat as a 13 year old with my mate and we weighed 7 stone each so it was always fun in a 4 or 5 and i had a beautiful swiss girlfreind crewing for years and we weighed 17 1/2 stone between us and were often faster reefed than swimmin
Posted By: davidtugwell

Re: Smaller sail for Hobie 16 - 03/01/08 11:36 AM

I have a hobie 16 main easy junior. It is like the hobie easy sail but only goes to the reefing point and doesnt use the boom. I am never use it. It has only been used 3 times. I would sell it if you want. I am in UK but could ship it. Also have a small soft jib (no battens.)
Posted By: dannyb9

Re: Smaller sail for Hobie 16 - 03/14/08 10:14 PM

i have an older, reefable main and i use it when i'm sailing solo. i weigh about 160. if its blowing 20 or over, i leave the jib on the beach and sail 'uno style'. i started with a h 14 so tacking without the jib is not a problem, actually easier than a 14 'classic' because the 16's extra weight helps shoot through the tack. theres plenty of performance available for me with the reduced rig, hull flying is easy and predictable. if you reef properly i dont think theres any extra strain on the sail, the reef points are tied just tight enough to keep the foot from flapping around. the loads are on the halyard, tack, and outhaul.
Posted By: mako

Re: Smaller sail for Hobie 16 - 05/05/08 02:55 AM

I lucked out and was given a set of sails for a 18'hobie. I cut the bottom off where the normal 16 would be reefed. I resewed in a rope. It is a little narrower than the normal 16. I'm going to give it a try in a couple of weeks. I also got the boom from the 18 and will try it on the 16. It is a loose foot with internal out haul.
Posted By: Kathryn

Re: Smaller sail for Hobie 16 - 05/05/08 01:39 PM

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IMHO the ideal solution would be a H14 sail on a H16 boom. That solves downhaul/outhaul/sheeting angle problems. The stock halyard could be extended with a wire rope pigtail.


You are exactly correct. I used to do this years ago when I sailed both a 16 and a 14.
Now I sail a Hobie 17 and the 17 sail is a perfect fit on the Hobie 20 with a halyard pigtail.
Posted By: Kathryn

Re: Smaller sail for Hobie 16 - 05/05/08 01:56 PM

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I am going to look for a 14 sail and give it a try. I would buy the sail and boom for a dedicated setup if I can find one.

All you need is the 14 sail and a pigtail on your halyard. I don't know that a 14 boom would work well because of sheeting angles. A 16 boom works well with a 14 sail.
Posted By: mako

Re: Smaller sail for Hobie 16 - 05/06/08 01:41 AM

Kathryn, I liked the idea of a 14 sail on my 16 but the cutoff 18 had the avantage of being free. I think the cutoff 18 is about the size of the 14. Anyway its worth a try. I did fix the sail to either use the 16 boom with a sewn in rope or gromets to use the loose foot 18 boom. I am not sure what the advantage of the loose foot is. I also do not know whether a mast rotation limiter is needed for a loose foot boom. When you sailed with the smaller sail did it tame the 16 down a little in wind close to 20MPH. I like to sail under full sail but there are conditions where sailing on the edge isn't that much fun. I spent the last 3 months fishing in Fla. and there wasn't many days I would like to be out in a full sailed 16.
Posted By: Kathryn

Re: Smaller sail for Hobie 16 - 05/06/08 03:45 PM

I used the 14 sail more for single handed sailing the 16 and this was many years ago when reefing the Hobie 16 was still the chosen method for depowering. I didn't want to put undue stress on my 16 sail so I used my 14 sail. Yes it tamed it down a lot.
I am an avid racer and over the years have learned that a Hobie 16 with full sails is quite manageable in very heavy air. It is all a matter of loosening off the jib halyard until the windward hull is just skipping the top of the waves when going upwind sheeted in hard. It does take some self confidence but works amazingly well.
Back to your concerns: the loose footed sail gives the opportunity to flatten or make the main sail fuller according to how hard you pull the outhaul. The outhaul on the 16 with the sail fed into the slot on the boom doesn't offer much control this way. Ideally, heavy air, you want all the strings TIGHT! The hobie 16 has no mast rotation control and in heavy air, you want your mast rotated to the stops anyway, so you would gain nothing by having any mast rotator control for heavy air. (A Hobie 18 has diamond wires which puts prebend in your mast, making your sail flatter, and you would want the 18 mast with less rotation for depowering in heavy air. Without diamond wires and prebend, your mast bends more when fully rotated, allowing for a flatter sail.)
Posted By: hrtsailor

Re: Smaller sail for Hobie 16 - 05/06/08 07:54 PM

Kathryn,

Did you really mean backing off on the jib "halyard"? On a 16 that means loosening the rig. Do you mean loosening the jib "sheet" while the main is sheeted tight? I reefed my sail once on my H-16 and didn't find it worth doing. The newer H-16s don't have a reef point since the comptip mast was introduced.
Posted By: Kathryn

Re: Smaller sail for Hobie 16 - 05/08/08 02:13 PM

Yes I do mean backing off the jib halyard which does loosen the rig. Sheet jib and main sheets in hard for upwind sailing. You may want to travel out the jib and main a bit too.

This method depowers a 16 beautifully.

Start out with your rig at your normal tension and mark the halyard at the black band. If you find the boat wants to fly a hull too much, loosen the jib halyard until the boat settles down and is quite manageable. You will need to head up into the wind each time you want to make an adjustment and then sail upwind again to test your setting. With the halyard marked you can easily see how much you have backed off the halyard and reset it if the wind drops.
Posted By: mmiller

Re: Smaller sail for Hobie 16 - 05/08/08 05:20 PM

At the Hobie 16 Worlds in New Caledonia... VERY high wind sailing. The light junior crews were running a completely loose (like old style 14) on the 16 and smokin. The booms were touching the rear beam when unsheeted. I am pretty sure they had loose jib luffs and could not get leech tension on the mains. We are talking 20-30 conditions though.
Posted By: hrtsailor

Re: Smaller sail for Hobie 16 - 05/08/08 06:42 PM

Kathryn,

Slacking off the jib halyard is an interesting idea. Matt's post indicates that it isn't unusual. Since you are talking about high winds, there is more chance that you could over. Is there a possibility in that case that the mast could come out of the socket? Do you secure the mast in any way?

Howard
Posted By: mmiller

Re: Smaller sail for Hobie 16 - 05/08/08 08:35 PM

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Is there a possibility in that case that the mast could come out of the socket?


Yes.

They also had issues of mast rotation stops missing.

I had never seen anyone sail a 16 that way, but the local kids were fast.
Posted By: mmadge

Re: Smaller sail for Hobie 16 - 05/08/08 10:45 PM

Backing off the jib halyard is more old school thinking.Not to say it does not work but the new thinking is depowering with the traveller(both main and jib) and max. down haul.All the while keeping full tension on the jib halyard.If need be set the shroud pins one hole lower.
Posted By: Kathryn

Re: Smaller sail for Hobie 16 - 05/09/08 03:52 PM

As Matt had described, slacking off the halyard is common, however he was describing much more radical slacking off than what has been normally done. In my years, I have not ever dismasted a 16 because of a loose rig; however, I did not have my rig as loose as Matt was describing. Last I talked with the Puerto Ricans, many of them were sailing in light and moderate air with their rigs loosened off. I tried it with great results too. Loosening off the jib halyard is a general setting for the sustained wind strength. Traveling the main and jib is what you do to handle the stronger puffs that overpower the boat for a short duration.
Posted By: Kathryn

Re: Smaller sail for Hobie 16 - 05/09/08 04:07 PM

Actually, Matt, I do recall that Worlds. The winds were awesome. I recall there were some specific instructions we were to follow with securing the jib halyards and how many wraps were allowed around the cleat. (Not enough by the way.) I also think we were requested to secure the masts to the boats because of the radical rake that was being used.
Posted By: Karl_Brogger

Re: Smaller sail for Hobie 16 - 05/11/08 05:21 AM

Do like the H14's do and use the main halyard to tie the mast down to the dolphin striker if you are concerned with it popping out with a loose rig.
Posted By: mako

Re: Smaller sail for Hobie 16 - 08/20/08 08:31 PM

I sailed my 16 with the cutoff 18 sail for the last 2 months.I used the loose foot boom from the 18. I thought it was easier to sail in all winds than the regular 16 sail. It tacks easily with or without the jib. The profile of the boat and sail look more like the later boat designs. About 15" short from the end of the boom and about 30" from the mast top. I had it out solo in about 20mph wind with no problem and saw GPS speed of 15.5 kn. It was the combination I was looking for for a crusing boat.
Posted By: BLMay

Re: Smaller sail for Hobie 16 - 10/04/08 12:38 AM

I use a boomless mainsail from a Gcat, it's way shorter than my Hobie's original and allows me to take novices out without them getting knocked in the head. I raise it all the way up the mast, putting it well above everyone's head. I still get good speed as the winds pick up, although it tries to curl up in winds over 20kts. It depowers easily and I know there won't be any capsizing even singlehanded. That's it in my avatar pic.
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