There here spinnakers for H16's

I was just reading the IHCA news letter and next year at the ISAF youth worlds the H16 will be introduced with spinnakers. I am trying to get more information on it but the performance benefits sound great. I think also at the 2004 worlds they are talking about having a spinnaker event, separate from the main open event of the H16 worlds. Also the Hobie 16 Trapseat groups has had great success with the Trapseat Spinnaker. So it looks like spinnakers are coming our way so watchout.

They have been talking about making the spinnaker stock on all new 16s. A poll recently went out asking if this should be done as well as a few other upgrades.
Absolutley rediculous if you ask me, there is no reason to divide up one of the few still good one design classes. They should focus on the Tiger as their spin boat and the 16 as a non-spin boat. Didn't hear anything about them adding the spin to the boat for the youth worlds. The standard 16 is supposed to be the youth boat through 2004, so maybe after 2004?
-Todd

I also have heard about people trying to get the spinnaker action in the worlds but not the yourths. The question is why are they puting spinnakers on since they go alright without them any way? Well sorry to be mean but puting a spinnaker on the hobie 16 just doesn't seem right. With the youths having them at the worlds just isn't right and im a youth who wants to have a spinnaker on board my boat. To me a spinnaker on a hobie 16 is just more rope on board and since the youth guys aren't as strong as the big guys in the opens doesn't that mean the bigger and stronger you are the better you will be on a windy day. Well if thy go along with the spinnaker i will still go along i guess.

Jules

If you don't want spinnakers on the H16 then please vote, your vote is really important. If I understand correctly they will continue to use the H16 without spinnakers but will add a spinnaker event for those interested in spinnaker racing. I do believe at the ISAF worlds the spinnaker is a test event along with the standard youth event. Also the H16 will continue to be the youth boat through 2004, and then reviewed in 2005. Actually the youth multihull boat is reviews regularly. The ISAF has indicated that even in 2005 when the youth boat will be reviewed again it is very unlikely that the H16 will be replaced, as there simply is not a multihull class as strong, that is continuing to grow like the H16 class, and has as good manifacture support.

Last time I heard they are looking at an official junior multihull for ages 11-15.

I for one can take or leave the spinnaker idea. I do enjoy spinnaker racing, but actually enjoy the H16 more without it. As for the H16 being supplied stock with a spinnaker that is very unlikely as I know Hobie USA has no plans to sell the H16 stock with spinnakers, it will be an option only.

And yes lets let the Tiger be the official spinnaker boat, I think your right on.

Hey just wondering for those people as dopy as me where do you vote.

Jules

Today´s trend is without question towards SPI boats. In this respect we have to look what keeps a class attractive, AND we have to look what the competing boats on the market offer.
Kids and that is the future WANT SPI boats. AND IT IS EASIER THAN ONE THINKS TO SAIL WITH SPI.

So, in order to keep the class attractive we MUST GO the SPI way.

Look at the DART 18! Do you see them any longer? No, they vanished within one single season! Why, well they hardly ever changed the boat!

We know about the HC 16 disadvantages, and IHCA is willing to change that, so lets go! Everyone!

Being a German who lives in the US and having sailed in hundreds of HC 16 events I must say that in this respect Europe is setting the trend, so let´s join and support the SPI TREND!

Regards

Fritz-Rüdiger Klocke
HC GER 106081

Fritz I have been talking with a few people lately about the H16 spinnaker and now have to re-track a little. I am interested how this spinnaker idea will turnout within the H16 class. What is very interesting is just in the last two years the H16 seems to have increased in popularity with new H16 fleets popping up in Greece, and other countries, etc. Plus, the new movement within South America is taking off. Its exciting even though I am not quit sure why all the new interest in the H16 is developing. I of course like the fact that the H16 class has been so successful for so long and is now gaining even more strength as a class. I might add the H16 Trapseat group is growing as well. I for one am going to jump on the bandwagon and get an asymmetrical spinnaker (I have the Trapseat spinnaker already) for my H16 and try it out and see how this develops within the class. You are right that the interest is gaining in regards to spinnakers on current designs and new designs. I for one think a spinnaker on a H16 will make for an exciting ride. I have experienced sailing with a Trapseat spinnaker on a H16 and the H16 does exceptionally well with it (more performance gains).

Fritz I am interested in what you said about the Dart 18 class, as I was wondering what happened to the Dart 18 class as it seemed that in a very short order they went for a large class (second to the H16) to almost nothing, like the TheMightyHobie18. Do you attest to this just because they did not change the boat and add a spinnaker? Come to think of it the H16 has change a bit sense the old days with new traveler system, new jib cut, etc., etc. Now it seems that a new downhaul and outhaul system will be added, which will not cost much to convert to or sell on current H16’s, and is a much welcomed addition to the H16 as the current system sucks.

So lets just do what is best for the class, and if you do not want to sail with a spinnaker then great as the H16 class will continue to also offer non-spinnaker events. So don’t jump ship just because a spinnaker is introduced, just check it out and try it and go from their. Once again non-spinnaker H16’s are the norm and as a class we must determine what is best so help out and stick with us.

To vote you can got to the North American Hobie Cat Assoc. website at www.nahca.org If you do not find where to vote just email the pres. of the assoc.

As I sailed the H16 with and without SPI.
It is allot easier to sail the H16 with SPI in higher Winds than without. the tendency to pitchpole on reaches is smaller and you sure will have more fun! The Spi-kit doesn't cost to much! I can only recommend it.

Just out of curiosity why put a spinaker on a hobie 16 when you already get to play with a boat which HAS NOT BEEN DESIGNED FOR A SPINAKER. Im not saying they shouldn't put one on im just pointing out that the hobie 16 class is good as it is now and all your doing is spliting that up.

I was talking to a couple of great hobie sailors which are the best in the country, about the hobie 16 and a spinaker and this is what they said to me:

Julian dont bother about putting a spinaker on its just a mest on the tramp which makes it danger's and because since the boat hasn't been designed for one it would be a wast of your tine. Mike

Others have said the same thing and we're not talking about sailors which are just ok we are talking about the Australian champs + . If this goes through i think it wont help but will ruin the hobie 16 future.

Facts:
1: people love that it isn't the easyest boat to sail
2: They love they pitch pole because you need to balance it out properly
3: They lke your high off the water
4: It soesn't need a spinaker to run briliantly down wind.

Many more.

Well if it goes through i think im after one just to keep up.

Jules

Well,
things have developped:
- new designs allow a very clean tramp with a European Hobie snuffer
- the HC 16 works excellent with the new SPI (only a few weeks or so on the market see Hobie Europe website),
- the SPI adds fun to the boat and it is still easy to sail, really.
- the HC 16 was not designed for SPIs, but what about the TORNADO, it also works out excellent!
- There needs to be a coordinated interclass support: In Europe the major classes are HC 16 (for experienced guys, esp. mixed crews, newcomers, youth), the F 18 for heavier crews, mixed even female only, the Tornado as the Olympic Class.
So showing this, these classes are starting to understand that there will be good support if the F18 and Tornados are supporting the HC 16 because they recruit their members out of these! And by the way, all (will) have spinnakers.

Fritz

Sorry to butt in this way, Surf, but you picked my interest when you mentioned the new jib cut.
Could tell me more about it? when did it happen? what changes?
Thanks
Marco

Hi,
the Jib Cut is slightly changing year by year. The idea is to allow more mast rake, that means that the sail is slightly taller, the aft leach (?sorry not a native speaker)is shorter as well as the lower leach of the jib. This allows you to sheet in block to block even with the (from my point of view disadvantaged) integrated jib traveller.

Fritz

Sorry this response is long but wanted to touch on a couple of points.

I am no techie MACRO but from what I know from owning a 1997 H16 and from what I have heard the new Hobie 16s (1996 and newer) with the new improved integrated traveler system needs different jib cut than the older H16s to allow for more mast rake. The top H16 sailors could not quit get the mast rake they wanted and so in response to this need the Hobie Co. now offers a jib with a little different cut to allow for more mast rake. I think that is it in a nutshell. Oh yes Hobie will continue to make the old jib as well, indefinitely.

JULIAN it would be great if you invited these top sailors to post within this thread not to prove what you said but just to get more detail from them on the topic. I also have had the opportunity to talk with some top sailors and will invite them to write on this forum. You see I get quit a different response especially from those in Europe and it seems there is much excitement about the spinnaker. Once again, they are not just jumping into but will be testing it out in 2003-04 at the ISAF youth worlds and I do believe at the H16 Worlds. As for the H16 NOT BEING DESIGNED FOR A SPINNAKER, I think that point really is not an issue as the H16 works well with a spinnaker just like almost any other multihull design. I have experience the H16 with a Trapseat spinnaker and it rocks.

I think there may be some truth about you concern with splitting the H16 fleet and I believe that is why they are at this time just testing it out. I would hope before any decision is made that people would try the spinnaker out and vote. My main desire is to do what is best for the H16 class and if that means supporting or not supporting the spinnaker concept them I will do that as an individual H16 sailor and owner. Lets just stay calm and give it some time.

Fritz once again I think you nailed it right on the head about inter class support. It seems to make sense to have the H16, F18, Tornado supporting each other. What is nice about this set up is you have 3 quite different designs and racing seens (meets various sailors needs and racing desires). What I have noticed is top sailors from these classes have been bouncing around within these classes. Mitch Booth sailed at the H16 worlds, he didnt do as well as he would of liked but from all reports he had a great time and many enjoyed having him at the worlds. I have conversed with Mitch via email and he is very supportive of the H16 class and as you have indicated it is a great way to recruit new sailors to the F18 or Tornado group, and is also great if people want to just stick within the H16 class as I am doing. I have to throw this one in but it is also nice that the H16 is able to accommodate people with disAbilities, which is the only cat class that is able to do this.

I see many good things about this three-way class support, which I also think will enable as to be seen from the monohull community perspective as better organized and that we have focus. Some would say who cares what they think, well my friends lets face it many monohull sailors and groups hold much of the power in the sailing world and we would be wise to work with them and not against them.

If you have not heard, they are talking about reducing the number of sailboat classes in the Olympics due to the Olympic committees efforts to make the Olympics more manageable, and other reasons. Therefore, with this in mind we need to really support the Tornado class so the monohull group does not try to kick out the Tornado to save one of their mono classes. I am not saying this is going to happen but its something to watch out for and a good reason (one of many) to support the Tornado class. Also, having a cat in the Olympics is a good for all multihull classes!

One final note there is talk on the international level about locating a junior cat and so far the talk is to use the Dragoon. In some ways I think this is a good idea the only problem is our club felt that buying a Dragoon for $5600 for kids to use from the age of 11-14 is a bit much for a boat they will only use for 3 years. The cost in particular and size of the Dragoon is especially an issue for parents who want to buy a cat that their kids can grow into. In our club we use H16s and team them up with order kids that can handle the H16. This idea was developed by the Hobie Troop 22 group in Florida and works really well.

We did think about the H14 as a junior boat and the kids in our club liked the idea but then they saw the Bravo and got even more excited about that boat, but we still need to try one out. Whats great is the Bravo sells for $2,500 versus $3800 for a wave, and $5600 for the Dragoon. Our local college has ordered two Bravos and two local sailors have also ordered Bravos, and the local dealer will have three on hand to sell. So the starting of a Bravo class is already moving. Still overall our direction is to follow Troop 22s junior idea with the H16s.

The Bravo is a solo cat – check it out at www.hobiecat.com and go to the Bravo section and click on the video. Also you can see our clubs official boat selection list at http://www.sail-s.com/main/sail/Sailing_Group/Sailing_Group_Policies_&_Contacts.htm for both mono and multi.

All my comments are just my point of view and I am in no way indicating that I know it all, but appreciate this forum and the great and respectful comments we get here.

Hello

All im saying is that i dont really think that many people really want a spinnaker on their boat and also i am one of those people who wants one . I just dont lke the idea of having them at the worlds since im trying to get into the youth team but having the NO1 world youth sailor there its going to be hard . I also have given those sailors this site and they should be here soon, I hope. Last thing do you know for sure they are having the spinnaker in the worlds?


Jules

Well how much would it cost to add the spin system to the hobie?

Jody Abrams
H16 Modified 59467

As a NAHCA member, how can I vote on these issues?

A clarification from Hobie Cat...

Hobie Cat has no plans to make a spinnaker standard equipment on the Hobie 16. It won't happen.

Nor does Hobie Cat (as the Worlds boat supplier) plan to have a spinnaker class at the next Hobie 16 Worlds or for any future Worlds event. The Hobie 16 class will continue as is. Any change to this is extremely unlikely. At the IHCA general meeting in New Caledonia last April, the spinnaker idea was just one of many proposals by various people. I would think that this one, as some standard change to Hobie 16 racing, is out of the question. Of course, the spinnaker, as an accessory for a Hobie 16, has been available for many years and can be used in open class racing only.

Some confusion may be present due to a few special events planned in Europe next year. These do not relate to The Hobie 16 class in general.

Matt Miller
Hobie Cat USA

A man from my own heart. Sorry i all ways thought that the spinnaker idea was abit sus. Well i was just thinking who was the first person to say it will happen? And how much is it for a spinnaker?
Well i really have to go byebye.

Jules

Ballot was on page 9 of the Aug/Sept NAHCA News.
I started a separate thread on the main page.

The "ballot" included in the article in the NAHCA News is a "comment" issue rather than a vote. The IHCA is looking for comments regarding the proposed changes.

Here is the text: "The purpose of this vote is to provide opportunity for members of the Hobie Class to participate in the rule change process and provide comment."

Any vote for changes will be at the IHCA General meeting at the Tiger Worlds in Singapore in February.

Here is a link to the August/Sept NAHCA News:
http://www.hobiecat.com/sailing/racing/nahca/nahca.pdf

Matt to be honest the current spinnaker the Hobie USA sells is not much more than a over grown jib with little if any performance benefits, I've used it and sorry to say it really was not much good. I do use the Trapseat spinnaker, which adds a lot of performance to the H16, as a spinnaker should. On the NAHCA website where it notes proposed H16 changes it indicates the following: HCE is working to refine the present up-dated system but to add optional snuffer system. Matt have you heard anything about the HCE snuffer system as this is the system the H16 should have for open and spinnaker events. The snuffer is easy and fun to use, plus you still get all the benefits of a standard spinnaker.

We have recently updated the cut of all of our spinnakers to be more in line with the current thinking. Still, the 16 spinnaker will be small and high aspect. It is a high performance cut, not optimized for light air.

Check out the latest spinnaker snuffer system used on the Tiger. The mid pole "trumpet" design is what they are leaning towards for all Hobie snuffers.



The link below is an article about various systems including an early review of the trumpet design:

Snuffer Systems Review

Do you know what the H16 trumpet spinnaker system will sell for yet Matt? You say the spinnaker is not for light wind sailing and I am thinking one could also purchase a bigger spinnaker for the system as well. Is there another mast tang up higher on the mast for the spinnaker to connect with?

I am a bit wondering if I read:

"Hobie Cat has no plans to make a spinnaker standard equipment on the Hobie 16. It won't happen."

Isn´t it the sailor who has to decide?

Nice pictures about the genacker are to be found under hobie-cat.net from HCE! They are happy to help out!

I thought I had posted an article similar to this but miraculous it DISAPPEARED!


Kind regards

Fritz

The reference to "standard equipment" is entirely the manufactures domain. This is what the builder sells the boat with, from the factory. Of course, the market effects what ends up as standard equipment over time. This statement was only a clearification of Hobie Cat's current and near future plans for the Hobie 16.

P.S. In answer to another post...
The current trumpet design adds a couple hundred dollars to the price of a spinnaker system. On the 16, the current system shown in that catalog with a "standard" pole is about $1,000 USD. You have to add a tang (approx 24" higher) for the spinnaker halyard. This is in the CompTip and is no problem.