Need keel repair advice

I dropped my mast for hurricane Ophelia and almost called it a season. But I decided I could eek out a couple more sails so I put it back up this weekend. The wind was good but my boat seemed real sluggish. When I pulled it back up on shore I noticed a steady stream of water under the starboard hull. I opened the drain plug and, uh-oh, about ten gallons of water poured out. I tried to build up the keels on my '82 H16 a couple years ago with marine filler but most of it went away from dragging the boat over the sand. Can anyone suggest a more permanent keel repair kit or product? I'm a recreational sailor so I'm not to worried about performance. Just want to stop the leak. My hulls are otherwise nice and hard (for a 23 year old boat).

I would go check out the Hobie forum on thier website. Lots of guys on there with lots of experience doing repairs.

My suggestion is to notuse Marine filler but use an epoxy (like West Systems) with a silica filler to make an almost toothpaste consistancy mixture to buld up the keels close to the finished shape. Let ti scure about halfway then add the final layer to build it out the the final shape. Mix this layer with micro ballon filler. This will allow any paint or surface treatment to adhere better.

Time for a bottom job. You need to use glass cloth if worn through. Layers of woven strips laminated to the keel.

Do a search for "bottom job".

Actually this is the exact product I did use before. Just dragging the boat into and out of the water wore it away. I think I need to layer it up now.

How many layers?

Go with marine quality epoxy. Cloth/lamination will be a must for your situation. The # of layers will vary depending on how much thickness you need to build up. There is a lot of info on this site alone to give you step by step instruction on this type of repair. Do a search for epoxy, lamination, keel, repair...etc.


Dave

I had the same problem a few years ago on the second day of my vacation on North Myrtle Beach. I came in from a sail and couldn't pull the boat up the beach so I took out a plug and drained a lot of water out. I lifeguard said he had a roommate who would fix it for me. The roommate owned several Hobies that he used for a business. He turned the boat over, mixed epoxy and put some glass cloth where the crack had occurred then made a channel on each hull with metallic tape. He poured epoxy into the channel so that I have two strips about 2" wide and at least 1/4" or more thick just about the full length of the hulls.. We didn't shape it to match the hull, just left it. When I got home I tried to file it and found it was so hard I quit. It has been that way for at least 10 years and now I check for water in the hulls about once a season, usually finding nothing.

Howard

I have never done one myself, but the basics are:

Flip the boat over (keels up)

File or grind the keels a bit flatter as a base for the new glass to stack onto.

Take 2" glass tape (woven comes on a roll).

Use laminating resin and wet out a layer of cloth and resin. Stack up 6-8 layers one at a time. Squeegee down tight between each layer.

Let harden (a little) till what we call "green" not yet hard. Use a utility knife or longer blade to trim / carve off the excess glass as best as possible. Would require a lot of grinding if you wait too long.

Shape with a rasp or angle grinder when hard.

There is a keel-shape template shown in the support area of the Hobie Cat site: Keel Template

The guy who did them in San Diego would add a clear coat or gel coat only if desired by the customer.

If the keel is split already you have to grind down the gel coat on the sides of the hull on either side of the keel. He would lap the first layer of glass or two over the keep and down the side about an inch to laminate the keel together first and then stack up some layers.

Would any place that does fibreglass repair on boats be capable/qualified in doing this? I'm lazy and would rather pay someone else to do it than to muck it up myself.

I want to avoid having to do a bottom job, as my hulls have other problems that make it a waste of a good bottom job on crappy hulls (delamination repairs).

Is there a recommended product for 'painting' on several layers of resin to protect the original glass textile, BEFORE it gets damaged? ...and act as a sacrificial coating for new wear?

Well, my original repair, building up keels with marine epoxy filler, lasted two seasons. Too bad Hobie doesn't make a pre-formed FRP keel cap that one could just epoxy onto the bottoms. Now there's a market for some savvy inventor.

I have been looking into using a 2 part epoxy paint. Still looking for feedback from anyone hwo has done it. You might want to try that out.

My starboard hull has a hole in the keel. No kind of paint is going to plug a hole. I wouldn't waste my time painting the keels on a beach cat. Three drags across the sand and it will be gone.

I thought of using epoxy paint, but quickly dismissed that idea, as the layers would be too thin to quickly build up the thickness required. But a resin product that is a thin gel would be best, but I am not aware of such a product. -Seems to me most products are either 'runny' or 'pastey'.

I was not suggesting to use teh epoxy paint to build up the hulls. Only as the paint after the hull buildup has been completed.

You can change the consistency of the epoxy by adding fillers until you obtain what you are looking for. It is unlikly that an off the shelf product exists at your desired consistency.

If you don't want to use fiberglass then I'd just get a bunch of epoxy and high density filler and mix up the epoxy to whatever consistancy you feel is best (I'd vote for "peanut-butter"-like) and build it up that way. I suppose if you thought you had a LOT of buildup to do you could get some dowels or something like that to take up space and put the thickened epoxy over *that*...

If I may, I`d like to make a suggestion regarding the dowels that Jaime suggested.

Wood dowel is not very suitable for this kind of keel repair. The reason being; as you re-wear those keels (inevitable) the dowel will wick up the water, then swell and bust open the entire repair site. And, once the wicking starts, you`re pretty much toast and the whole repair will have to be cut/ground out.

As for what to use, including two-part epoxy and polyurethane for finishing...see my two separate posts titled "major restorations". I have detailed step by step almost everything you are asking. This includes fillers, techniques, product names and even the number of ounces of paint and primer needed.

Though my keels were quite worn, they only had to be built up about 3/8 inch max in some spots - usually less. So, I was able to get by with only epoxy (fumed silica as a filler) or plain old VINYL ester resin putty from 3M on the smaller repairs. If you are building up more than this, you really must go with Matt`s suggestion using glass cloth. I personally try to use glass cloth in tape form (as Matt suggested) whenever I can. It is MUCH more convenient than cutting up strips of glass yourself.

There are many "before and after" pictures to show you what to expect for your finished product.

http://www.catsailor.com/forums/sho...=&sb=5&o=&fpart=all&vc=1

http://www.catsailor.com/forums/sho...=&sb=5&o=&fpart=all&vc=1


hope it helps,

Dave

Good thinking, Dave! That should've been obvious to me. Maybe one could use aluminum rods for that instead. I dunno, just throwing out ideas here...

I was thinking a non-epoxy resin would be better. Epoxy doesn't have much UV stability, and would require painting...and the paint would just wear off. Are the ester resins thin enough to paint on the hulls?

Non-epoxy will be less expensive and easier to work with (somewhat), But, it will not be better. Epoxide reactions and the chemical bonds that they form are about a good as it gets for this sort of repair... UV is of no real concern for a keel job and I believe all the resin types can be negatively affected by UV.

In general, the quality and relative costs of the common resin types used in this kind of marine construction/repair are as follows (from best/most expensive, to less expensive/effective):

(1) Epoxy (marine grade/quality)
(2) Vinyl ester resin
(3) Isothalic polyester resin
(4) Orthothalic polyester resin.

To these, one can add the filler of choice, or just laminate using glass cloth. Simply "painting resins on" is a common error most of us make when first experimenting with these types of materials. The reason being, if you build up a surface using resins only (without cloth or suitable fillers) you will find that the finshed product will spider-web with cracks and chip apart. This can occur within a few hours to days... or over a season or two depending on several variables. I have found the polyesters much more prone to this than the epoxies. The bottom line is - resins ALONE are only suitable for the very smallest of voids/repairs and no good for structural or abrasive support. It is what we add (fillers, fiberglass) to the resins that give them the qualities we need in the marine field.



Dave

P.S Hey Jaime, I knew you were aware of the dowel thing and were just throwing out ideas... I went to your website a few months back and checked out the impressive (from scratch) fabrication you did on your rudders. Nice work for sure!

Instead of using glass cloth as a filler look at using glass mat. It is easier to mold around curves. I used it on my catboat when I replaced a bulkhead, at the advice of the boat manufacturer. It worked well. The mat is held together with a binder that is dissolved by the liquid resin, It then can be manipulated around the curves where cloth can't.

Howard

No, you caught me there,it was a dumb idea of mine. lol
Glad you like my rudder! Hopefully we'll be buildibg more soon!

That was good information on the resins...but NOT what I WANTED to hear. I have sensitivities to certain chemicals, especially stryene monomer. I can take precautions when 'painting' to avoid the fumes, but when you gotta work close with forming and laying fabric, thats too much exposure for me. I guess I'll have to wait until I can barter someone to do a quick-and-dirty bottom job (or give up on the hulls).

If you are worried about the fumes causing repiratory problems, a good respirator will take care of that issue. One should be worn anyway when working with resins for prolonged periods. If it's your skin that is affected you can get protective clothing for this as well.

Check out Jamestown Distributers for all of these items. They are usually the best prices around for this kind of stuff. You can also post on thier forum about fiberglass repair. Most of these guys build wooden and glass boats professionally or are very experienced amatures. They may have some good tips on how to do the repair as well.

the website is

www.jamestowndistributors.com

Good Luck