spinnaker on formula14

From the mid seventy's untill the early '90's we manufactured and sold literally thousands of 14' cats predominately in South Australia. On one of our designs, the Alpha Omega 4.4, which was set up from the factory as a one up on trapeze racing cat, cat rigged, we rigged several with a spinnaker as well. Sailed either one up or with a crew in that configuration ie cat rigged with spinnaker (and an extra trapeze for the crew) it was a truly exciting racing experience. It all worked very well, and the only thing agains it at that time was that there was a lot of resistance from the sailing community. At that time the most common opinion expressed was that "skinnakers belong on mono hulls not on cats". This, even from the cat sailors! It would appear that the general opinion has changed some what with the success of the formula 18's?

Ozy cat sailors are a strange bunch. Was the AO setup simple? I'm looking for the simplest setup for my 430.
Bern

berny,
your 430 looks quite intertesting...Tell me more about it, is it a production boat, or did you home build it..how about some specs on it....looks like it might be the ticket for the f-14 class.......................tr

Terry, by way of explanation, my involvement with 14ftrs (4.3m here in Oz) goes back some 14yrs. After a lifetime of sailing bigger boats including a 'B' class cat, I bought a Maricat, a one design Hobie 14 inspired Oz 14ftr. A nicer boat to sail than the Hobie 14 but I digress. I campaigned the Maricat for aprox. 8yrs winning the local club championship and class state and national titles. I decided that the 14ftr was a unique class in that it could be sailed easily single handed, was easy to trail, rig, launch and retrieve, and was overdue for an update so I designed and built the 430. It's uni-rigged and much influenced by the A class. It has some interesting features in that the main beam is at 50%, it has minimum 'rocker' i.e., it is quite straight along the bottom which in section is essentially an ellipse, has very little 'vee' and has powerful bows which resist nose-diving when driven hard. The hulls and foils are moulded epoxy E'glass, carbon reinforced foam sandwich, vacuum bagged.
Some specs;
Builder:
Peter Skews Shipwright Services (lay-up)
Designer:
Bern Leslie (me)
Length:
14ft nom. / 4.3m [LWL]
Beam:
7ft.10in / 2.4m (max. Aus)
Displacement:
107lbs / 75kg
Sail area:
main: 145sqft / 13.5sqm
Spinnaker: TBA
Mast Height:
24ft 7ins. / 7.5m
Construction materials:
Hull; Hand laid moulded Epoxy / ‘E’glass / carbon foam sandwich.
Mast and front beam; 50x120mm chemically milled alum. Sail; Mylar.

It really is a great boat. It's just a gem to sail and it's the fastest 14ft cat in Australia by a street and is quicker than some 15ftrs. It actually runs with slower H16's and I have occasionally knocked off the odd TheMightyHobie18 though probably more from sailing skills than actual boat speed. It seems to have no real hang-ups and, in all the time I've raced it, I've never 'put it in'.
While it is a challenging boat to sail, it is not difficult for reasonably competent persons to manage single handed from the trapeze. It is however a high tech. high performance racing sailboat incorporating many innovative design concepts and is suited to those who want excellent performance from a very fast and exciting sailboat.
I developed a set of one design rules and raced the boat in three states over two years in mixed 14ft uni and sloop fleets and if I finished (and mostly I did) I won.
Sadly, no-one here in Australia was interested!
I tried to put a 14ft GP circuit together to promote 14ftrs and the 430 and again I got little interest and a week out from the first round the host club pulled the pin on the requirement for a separate start and course for the 14's.
I lost interest, parked the boat under cover and went bike riding for two years.

Sale price was set in the range $Aus11,000 ($US6,500 aprox.) depending on hardware which was most likely the major stumbling block.

This season I'm back (still winning) and there's a second boat being built. I am at present 185lbs and the boat was designed for a crew of around 170lbs but it still kicks @r$. I'm also looking at a spinnaker but frankly at 62yrs I've got about as much as I can handle with what's already there.
I see F14 as the way to go to get people interested in 14ftrs again and possibly a vehicle to get the 430 (or soon to be F14) back into production.
I'm also looking at maybe doing a set of plans suitable for home building.
Bern

Berny, Didn't your 430 appear in "catamaran sailer magazine" some time ago? To answer your question, yes the set up of the spinnaker on the Alpha Omega 4.4 was quite simple. It was very much like the F18's today - a small diameter pole attached at the front beam under and forward of the mast step, a very fine multi flex bridle from the front of each hull rising to the forward end of the underside of the pole, and a top wire attachment between the point of joining of the mast's fore stay and the main bridle. The front bridle to support the pole down against the lift (and the side ways load) of the kite and the second one to support the pole upwards against the downward (and side ways) transfered loads. The halyard ran inside the mast to an outlet approx' 2' above the hounds and to the head of the kite, but then it continued on down the inside of the kite to a location point approx' in the middle of the kite and further down onto the deck attached to the tail of the halyard (making the halyard a continuous sheet for setting and retrieving the kite and having the absolute minimum excess sheet on the deck) The centre attachment to the kite meant that the kite was halved in "lenght when retrieving. It was stored in a bag attached to the trampoline. As it was set with the halyard the tack was automatically pulled out to the end of the pole. Very simple and very easy to set and retrieve one up. You made a few "large" statements when describing the performance of your 430 ie "The fastest 14 in Australia" I would question that a little as, likewise, I think that the 4.4 Alpha Omega was the fastest - it nearly always BEAT the H16 around an olympic, triangular course, not "almost kept up with them" But that is history. What I do know is that our new Alpha Omega 4.3 "Tora", which we prototyped for three years here could be the cat to hold the claim of "the fastest 14 footer any where". Over the prototype time it has proven faster than the H16's (except on a two on wire trapeze reach, but then there still isn't much that can beat a H16 on that point in those conditions even today), and has competed over a vast range of courses and conditions, almost on an even footing with the Hobie Tigers (we have all the records and times to verify this). Still to my way of thinking "whos the fastest etc" is fairly unimportant, the most important thing is to develop and formalise a "formula" that defines "just what is a 14' cat" then we can all get down to the real business of building and racing all under the same umbrella and not fragmented by "classes" and "yardsticks"
Yours Darryl J Barrett

Darryl it's true I've never sailed against a sloop rigged 4.4m ( 14'5"+ ) A/Omega and I've heard they are fast, but I have regularly raced and beaten the Windrush 14 sloop nat. champ amongst other Windies, the best Maricat and Hobie supersloops, 14squ Nacras (@ their state titles), Mozzies, Geminis etc., and always uni-rigged and without spinnaker( I think I'll have to try one ). Originally the mast was shorter with a smaller sail (see pic) and it still was almost never beaten in 14ft fleets. Anyway, as you say it's all academic now and only the future is meaningful given F14.
Your new 4.3 AO sounds awesome, do you have any pics?
Yes I think F14 could be a good thing but I'm not holding my breath here in Oz.
Bern

Berny, We are about to "test the waters" with both a new formula 14 and a new formula 16. They are both based around our previous Alpha Omega 4.4 and 5m cats. Both are completely carbon fibre (hulls mast beams boom spinnaker pole etc. The 14 (4.3) is cat rigged with spinnaker, sailed one up on trapeze or two up on trapeze. The 5m is sloop or cat rigged sailed one up cat rigged with spinnaker or two up sloop rigged with spinnaker. This is the first time in over 15 years that it has felt that the "new cat market" has stopped receeding and is at last starting to expand again.
Darryl

That's an encouraging outlook Darryl, I hope you're right, not for any other reason but that I think the 14ftr is a great boat and very much overlooked due primarily to the 'bigger is better' mentality of the average male. Silly thing is, they get the big boat, it costs a shirtload of mula, it's a beatch to keep at home, a beast to trail, gut busting to rig, launch and retrieve, and when the crew doesn't turn up they're screwed. Would they go back to a 14 to enjoy their sailing again? Uh Uh! Not big enough. Go figure.
Bern

How long until the AO 4.3 and 5 will be on the water and when is the second 430 being built???

The Alpha Omega "TORA" is real close now.
I have been busy making patterns for a whole heap of new aluminum castings for mast base, mast head, etc,etc, and have only recently received the finished products from the foundry. I have also been finishing the new moulds for the carbon fibre diamonds, new rudders, new rudder stocks etc (all in carbon fibre). I also had to change the hull mould from a mounting for the beams to take a mast section for beams to a moulding to take the new carbon fibre round beams.
We are laying up the hulls in the next few weeks (when our other work loads allow) then all that is left is to assemble and sea trials.
Its the "little things" that take up most of the time.

At least all the work that we have been doing on the F14 will save us a lot of time when we concentrate fully on the F16 as all the components ie mast, beams, spreaders, C/boards, rudders, rudder stocks etc etc are the same

I didn't know you were doing an F16 Darryl
Bern

We always had a 14, 16, & 18 ft range of Alpha Omega cats Berny and they all were fitted with spinnakers, so it is not such a big deal to put an F14 an F16 and perhaps a little later on, an F18 back onto the water
Darryl

So just what is this thing then?
http://www.catsailor.com/bb_files/2012
Bern

That was my half arsed, totaly failed attempt to post a photo Berny, and it pisses me that nearly every one else seems to have no problem in posting photos. ARRRRRRH NUTS!!!

Gees, I'm not sure about this spinnaker on 14's thing. I mean I designed the 430 after the 'A' class concept to produce an easy boat to manage on the hard and a nice boat to sail on the water. It has been a success in both areas and has given me several good years of competitive sailing with limited hassles and lots of great fun.

I'm now far enough down the road toward fitting a spinnaker to realise that I'm making a very nice (IMHO), reasonably simple uncomplicated boat very complicated.
At present it takes just a bit longer to rig than a 'normal', 14 i.e. Hobie, Maricat, etc. I don't trail the 430 with the rudders attached and it carries a spanner which needs to be set up so it takes just a few minutes longer to rig, but when the kite is up and running it'll take a shirtload of additional time to put the thing together and pull it apart again.
I'm really NOT keen to make my sailing significantly more difficult than it already is. I can't believe the amount of extra stuff that's needed to carry a kite, and I presently furl rather than snuff.
Maybe I'm gettin' old but it really does seem like it's all just too freekin' hard. Sure it'll go faster but then so does a speed boat, so what?
Bern

It's a small price to pay for all the additional "FUN" berny! besides it's like all things new, it only becomes easier the more familiar you are with it.
Personally I agree with you about the "A" class concept for a 14' cat! I really like the "purety" of a 14' set up cat rigged within an "A" class style formula, I don't even like carrying a jib on a cat unless there is a crew. But it appears that the market place is dictating a spinnaker at the present!

Bern and Darryl -

The Mystere 4.3 is a set-up-intesive boat to be sure - has everything you find on a Nacra 20, really, with a two-part spin pole and snuffer bag. Each setup takes me no less than 45 minutes - step the mast, tension the rig, off the trailer and track to a good spot in the sand, set up the pole and bag, fly the 'chute once on the beach to check lines and lube on the takedown. Then I get the main up and tension battens. Jib goes up last and gets wrapped around the forestay if it's breezy until I get myself dressed and the cooler stuffed. Long 'bout then, it's off to the skipper's meeting to see what's what and pay the fee. One last quick trip to the 'loo, finish off the coffee, and it's "shove off, mate." When I was exclusively crewing, all of that took half the time with two pairs of hands ('cept the 'loo part, of course).

She breaks down a little quicker, of course, but I'm usually not in a big rush and paying more attention to a cold beer and some tall tales.

I have a simpler boat - the Wave. Step the mast, up with the main, shove off. It's fun, but definitely not the same as the thrills I get on the 4.3 with the 'chute up. The Wave is a good time, the 4.3 continues to make me a better sailor. Would like to add the self-tacker to manage the jib better, but wouldn't take the spin off for love nor money. I appreciate the A-cat simplicity, and I've seen them win consistently against boats with more sails, but for now, I'm all about being "three sheets to the wind."

I had a couple of years off prior to last season. As a mature aged sailor I was getting a bit tired of the 'rig, launch the fleet, race (best bit), retrieve the fleet, de-rig ritual'. I race every Satdy at our river club from September to end April and do the odd 2/3 day regatta. We have roughly 10/15 14ft cats each week at the club to dolly across the grass to the sandy beach and into the river. While putting them in isn't too painful, dragging the buggers out across the sand and up the grassy slope is a bloody pain in the proverbial ar$.
As I said, it all got too hard and so because of that, and some other issues which I wont go into, I gave it all up and parked the boat.
I've been riding my 'sit down and walk' (bicycle) for the last six years and I'm now a lot fitter but really, I just see it getting all too difficult again and the most frustrating thing is I'm loading up the boat with all this clobber which is a bit like dressing up parade float and somehow sacrilegious.
I mean you wouldn't put a kite on an 'A' (well I wouldn't anyway).
Apart from all that, one of the big, big attributes of 14ft sailing IS the low cost simplicity of having a smaller, more manageable boat and a cat rigged 14 is the epitome of that philosophy. No, I'm not convinced the 430 needs a kite, not with me on it anyway.
Bern

Hey Berny,
I thought much the same as you when I first put the kite on the Mozzie, but after a while you simplify everything as much as you can, and leave as much on the boat as possible so that re-rigging next time is easier. We park our boats on the trailer under roof, so mast-down. I leave spinn. halyard, blocks, pole & snuffer attached to boat, everything lese comes off. I reckon the kite adds 15-20min. of rigging time before & after the sailing, but it`s worth it.
I could never go back to sailing without the kite - it`s so bad that if we take the kite down a bit too early before the leeward mark, it feels like ages before you get to the mark under main & jib alone. Don`t think I could sail a whole leg at that speed. It just feels like the wind dropped by 10knots.
I suppose it`s a personal thing, if you like the easy setup without kite, and your boat goes well enough without it, keep it like it is, but if you`d like to harass the bigger boats downwind (and who doesn`t !) then the kite is not optional.

Cheers
Steve

Thanks John/Steve, good comments.

Steve the problem with wanting to 'harass the bigger boats downwind' by using a kite is, they're all fitting kites too now and so eventually you'll end up back at square 1, but with a shirtload more rigging to do to sail in a class, even more fragmented than it already is. How many Mozzies are there racing with kites and how many are on the start line of any given race? I ask this because I think it's a mistake to be thinking about trying to go with the bigger boats. That sort of thinking is a legacy of a sport which is fragmented by too many classes. The various classes now have to race together simply to have a decent number of boats on the start line. In this situation you're trying to make a bad situation better by being competitive amongst bigger boats rather than concentrating on building numbers within your own class. Not good.
In an optimum situation there'd be enough boats in a class to demand their own start and race only with boats of similar performance, not a mixed fleet where the 16ftrs get creamed by the 20ftrs. Fitting spinnakers to smaller boats simply delays the time when there'd be enough boats of similar performance on the start line, by further fragmenting an already seriously fragmented fleet. Presently, you have a very limited number of Mozzies on the water and to make the situation worse, they're now racing in three classes. Not good.

The whole idea of developing the 14ft cat regatta concept is to consolidate by facilitating a group of classes with similar performance. Making one particular division within that class significantly superior is counterproductive.
Bern

Steve,


>>>it`s so bad that if we take the kite down a bit too early before the leeward mark, it feels like ages before you get to the mark under main & jib alone.


Ahhh Yeah that's awfull isn't. And you're eating yourself up all the while because they others are just running you down SOOOO quickly. It's pure torment.

Also because you really have the point up a bit to make some speed under main and jib alone but then you'll miss the mark and have to do 2 extra gibes. WHILE THE OTHERS CAN POINT RIGHT TO THE MARK. One time it was so bad that we just hoisted the spi again to have it up for a few more seconds.

Wouter

To be really honest, I don't spend 20 min more time rigging only to fit the spi.

You guys must be including something that isn't related to the spi.

From a completely setup up sloop rigged boat I only need : 4 minutes to rig the spinnaker. Snuffer stays on the pole slides over the pin on the mainbeam. AHPC quick knots (see picture) take 10 secs a side to fit the support lines. The mid section supportline I just snap to the pole and I tension the whole system by lifting the pole in the middle and hooking it on it the line coming down from the bridle.

Spi halyard stays on the mast; so untie that run it through the block on the tramp and pull it through the snuffer sock using an extra line that you disconnect later. (this line is run throught the sock when disassembling the platform)

I leave the 4 ratchet block on the spi sheet and use the loops + balls system to fit two ratchets to eyelets in the trampoline ; the loops run over the main beam and back. And the two remaining ratchets are shackled to the sidestays.

Clock is running at about 2 minutes now.

The fitting of the spi and running of the retrieval line through the spi takes the most time; anything between 2 to 3 minutes. But after that everything has been done. 5 min is doable with the gear along side you. 10 minutes with mishaps and walking over to the car a few time. 20 minutes (for only the spi gear)? That's far to long.

Trick with running the spi retrieval line or to grap the luff at one corner and than sort of flake the spi to your left hand while walking down the luff to the top. Now all the patches can be easily found and you cna run the retrieval line through them even when their is wind on short. The spi flaps but it is controllable as you are holding the luff bundled up in yout lefts hand. Help of your crew is welcome but it is doable alone.




>>>Steve the problem with wanting to 'harass the bigger boats downwind' by using a kite is, they're all fitting kites too now and so eventually you'll end up back at square 1,


Try thinking of it this way. Everybody gets a kite with the jump in performance with it instead of you.

You'll leave the beach 10 minutes sooner, in some case even 20 minutes, by the end of the race the rest of sailors will be back on short and almost finished up packing before you cross the finish line.



>>>but with a shirtload more rigging to do to sail in a class, even more fragmented than it already is.


Sorry Berny, you are just looking for argument to support your favoured outcome. Fragmentation was created and perfect BEFORE the advent of spinnakers. It at all the introduction of spinnakers has made the F18. F20, Tornado and what not closer in performance than anything else. Mainly because sailing skill is more important now than ever without the spi. The example by steve of dropping your spi to soon is a perfect example of that.



>>>That sort of thinking is a legacy of a sport which is fragmented by too many classes. The various classes now have to race together simply to have a decent number of boats on the start line.

Okay, so if we all drop the spi than in some magical way we'll get all those boats back on the start-line doing one-design racing ?

That scene is GONE, not likely to return. The best shot at big one-design fleets we have right now are the Formula classes ; and without a spi a formula class is trying to fight a losing battle. I think even the A-cats themselfs will become a victom in time. Either that or they too must incorporate a spi.

We have a supercharged A-cat (wider at 2.6 mtr. and 160 sq.ft of sailarea instead of 150) racing at each race in at our club. The guy knows how to sail. But even he is working on a spi setup for his supercharged A. Problem is that in really light winds and really strong winds he can hang with the F18's and F20's. In anything else he is doomned. He reaches the A-mark first on the first leg each time, but after that the formula's pull a spi and it is all over. That is on elasped time. On handicap it is even worse.


>>In an optimum situation there'd be enough boats in a class to demand their own start and race only with boats of similar performance, not a mixed fleet where the 16ftrs get creamed by the 20ftrs.


It is exactly this exclusive "I want my own start" mindset that fragmentated the cat scene. Therfor it will not provide a route back to the glory times.

With all due respect; How are you going to attract all these sailors to your class when you don't want to sail in mixed fleets.

The argument you'll get it :"yeah, because you know we'll role you while sailing our current boats"


>>Fitting spinnakers to smaller boats simply delays the time when there'd be enough boats of similar performance on the start line, by further fragmenting an already seriously fragmented fleet.


How can a seriously fragemented fleet be harmed significantly more by a little further fragmentation. How bad is even more broke when it was broken beyond repair already ?


>>>Presently, you have a very limited number of Mozzies on the water and to make the situation worse, they're now racing in three classes. Not good.


From my perspective, based on Steve Comments and that of some Aussies, the Mossie class has really revitilized themselfs by adopting the spi. And I think as good as all mosquito's in SA with Steve are running spis now. In addition the international profile of the Mossies was significantly raised via this F16 route.

Now I mean, your points may be valid from an individual sailors perspective but in the larger scheme of things you will find that the only hold you down longer or lead to extension.


>>>The whole idea of developing the 14ft cat regatta concept is to consolidate by facilitating a group of classes with similar performance. Making one particular division within that class significantly superior is counterproductive.


Than what will be your selling argument to attract sailors to your class ?

Of course I understand that F14 is not my league so please excusse me for butting in.

Wouter

Hey Wouter,
I`ve never taken it down THAT early (except once, it looked like a tight reach from B-C, so I took down as we reached B, Gybed & passed the others on a 2 sail reach while they were fighting the kites, but that`s different). On another occassion I capzised twice in one leg, so hoisted & retrieved the kite 3 times in one leg, but I`m hoping to avoid a repeat, it gets too tiring & does nothing for your boatspeed.

Berny :
In SA we have very segregated fleets, and only sail open class a few times a year at the Longhaul Point Series. Mostly we sail Mozzies, Hobie 16`s & Dart 18 in separate class & club events, mainly becuase certain clubs have become "home bases" for each class. In answer to your question, we have 14-18 Mozzies sailing at most club events, and the spinnaker has taken off so much so that at our last event we had 1 non-spinnaker boat. The Hobies sail at another club so we seldom race against them, and the Darts only sail inland, very few in our neighbourhood.

The bit about hanging in there downwind with the bigger boats is academic, the Hobie Tigers are quicker than we are, and start separately in open events, so it`s a case of trying to hold them off as long as possible, as much as we provide them with "targets". It`s all fun, and the separation of classes would happen anyway, the kite just lets us have way more speed & fun than without it. (And we ARE sometimes qucker than them, which freaks them out a bit)
Your scenario at your home club is different, seems you sail with a mixed fleet of mostly 14fters, none with spinnakers. I`d understand that if you put a kite up, you`d isolate yourself from the rest, and have no-one to race against. I suppose different scenarios dictate different responses - If there were 20 430`s and you put up a kite, the rest would see you blasting off & probably order the spinnaker kit. Perhaps if Darryl`s F14 takes off in numbers you could join in with them.
Either way, always remember to have fun when you`re sailing, even if there`s no-one to race ! .

Berny -

The fundamental idea of getting a bunch of similar-performing 14-footers on the line is a good one and at the heart of the formula movement. I'm in a bit of a backwater here in NW Florida, though, and the spin is keeping me alive. None of the bigger boats would let me come out and play if I were on the Wave or a Hobie 14, though I've demonstrated in the regattas I've administered that the right size course will keep the scratch boat from having to wait around for more than about 20 minutes in-between races, during which time there is a steady stream of finishers to keep you entertained anyway. Even the self-styled "class director," while keeping his F-14 sails, has sold a boat and his solid-section mast, purchased a 17-footer with a kite, and begun his assault on a national title in that class (good luck, Bob - knock 'em dead in Tybee!). I haven't seen Terry on his purple-people-eater Hobie 14 lately – he was on an A boat last regatta. So here am I, the only F-14 making regional races. Am I whining about it? Maybe a little, but it is still the right boat for me, which is how I wound up here to begin with, and at 36, I'm not about to suddenly grow a half meter and (heaven forbid) gain 40 pounds.

I agree that fragmenting small classes and trying to rig up to beat larger boats is bad – I’m not out for that. The exhilaration of racing larger jib-and-main boats is an unintended side effect of my circumstances, but I enjoy the hell out of it anyway. And your point about more and more larger boats going to spinnakers is also valid – I enjoy sharing the line with Hobie 16s, however, and I don’t see them moving to the spin here in NA, despite the Hobie Europe politicking. I’m trying to do some fleet building down here, but I feel like an army of one – there’s interest, but most of the people best suited to the F-14 are steady crew on bigger boats with limited desire to become skippers. I can’t blame them – I was there for years. All the benefits with much less investment of time and money.

All of this is conspiring to keep me spinning for the foreseeable. In the mean time the 4.3 class is still kicking and there are several at any given CRAM, CRAW, and OCRA event – once I get my pre-toddler a bit more settled, I think a couple of trips north to 4.3 country will be fun. The F-14 continues to draw a lot of attention and questions every time I sail it – there’s an attraction to a very economical but responsive boat that has loose enough class rules to allow for any combination of crew, sails or equipment.

As far as the differences in the North American and Aussie F-14s, I think they will work themselves out given a little time. I think we’ll find we’re subject to convergent evolution – we’ll adapt to different environments to fill the same niche. In the interim, let’s keep the discussion going so we each know what’s working well and why. Next Gulf Coast F-14 regatta? Juana’s Good Time, September 9-11. Can’t wait? I’ll be at Mayor’s Cup, August 7. Wrapping up the Trident series with another 25-miler this weekend in Pensacola Bay. Bring it on.

The only thing that I can say is that 14'cats are not 16'cats and 16'cats are not 18' cats etc etc, and as any development in "speed" occurs, it will filter through to ALL classes and sizes of cats, eventually. So there will ALWAYS be the relative difference in performance between "sizes" as there has always been, SO????
Fragmentation of classes??? Whats new??? in the seventies through to the mid eighties, there was the biggest boom in off the beach catamaran sailing that has ever been seen. At eight different yacht clubs here during that time, it was not unusual to see fleets of up to 100 (and more) cats starting at each and all of those clubs (and this was along a strip of "city" beach of about 22km's where all those clubs are spread side by side, sometimes the set courses between clubs would actually overlap). The pressure then was to divide the different classes into their own starts (some even had their own courses) I.E. Windrush start 1, Hobie 14 start 2, Sundace 14 start 3, Hobie 16 start 4, Mosquito start 5, etc etc etc. this was because, although most people posting here seem to think that large "massed" starts and large numbers of cats sailing the same course is really great, when it is experienced week after week, month in and month out, most serious sailors prefer to compete against cats that are of "similar performance" and don't want to be always harrassed by "other" cats that "are not in their class", and only interfere in the competition that is going on between "similar" sailing rivals. The reasons that I see that this attitude has apparently changed now is that that sort of club racing numbers and shear numbers of cats racing each weekend hasn't been experienced for many years, BUT the same situation will arise again, "Whatever goes around, comes around"
Darryl J Barrett

We manufactured 14, 16, and 18ft cats in the late 70's and early 80's with spinnakers as viable options, and I have to say that the difference in rigging them with or without spinnaker, when you were familiar and comfortable with the process, was only the difference of no more than ten minutes. The extra lines on the deck was only minimal and never a problem if a little "good house keeping" and thought was used in the set up. It's a bit like the difference that I have seen between one sailor setting up his boat on the beach and taking an hour to get it ready while another with the same cat hits the beach and is ready to sail in about ten minutes. it seems that although we know what the horse is like, it's the jockey that we are uncertain of. (although I do have to say that as a personal preference, I like a cat, cat rigged and as "clean" and simply layed out as possible, sailed one up, there is a purety in that form that is hard to deny)

Mate it took you longer than 10 mins. just to type all that, never mind actually do it!


Try thinking of it this way Wouter. No 14's bother fitting kites. At our 14ft only regattas, everyone gets back to the beach roughly at the same time after a great race where everyone has a great time on boats which don't cost two arms and a leg to own and don't take *any* extra time to rig or de-rig, and because they are 14ft only regattas, it doesn't matter a squirt what the bigger spinnaker boats are doing.


>>>but with a shirtload more rigging to do to sail in a class, even more fragmented than it already is.<<<



Sorry Wouter I thought that's what we do here?

Yes but I still see no need to continue to promote it.


>>>That sort of thinking is a legacy of a sport which is fragmented by too many classes. The various classes now have to race together simply to have a decent number of boats on the start line.<<<

Please explain???
They'd have to be insane to go down that road. IMHO it would destroy the class.


>>In an optimum situation there'd be enough boats in a class to demand their own start and race only with boats of similar performance, not a mixed fleet where the 16ftrs get creamed by the 20ftrs.<<<



Not logical.


You miss my point. I'm talking about 14ft only regattas where all 14ft classes compete together. We've been doing it for 12years. We get 50+ 14's of various designs on the start line. We'll be doing two regattas this season and hopefully a GP type circuit not too far down the track.


>>>The whole idea of developing the 14ft cat regatta concept is to consolidate by facilitating a group of classes with similar performance. Making one particular division within that class significantly superior is counterproductive.<<<

Large fleets of reasonably inexpensive, uncomplicated boats of various designs competing against each other on a common course. What could be better than that?



By my guest Wouter
Bern

>>Try thinking of it this way Wouter. No 14's bother fitting kites.

Mystere 4.3 , H14 max in the US, Hobie dragoon (Youth class) in EU are all using kites. Than ofcourse the various 14teen mono that most kid go through when working themselfs up in sailing. 420, 29-er etc.

I really don't think that US and EU have any significant 14 foot fleet anymore. They are all that. Maybe Aus has great 14 foot regatta's but on a global scale this is not the case.


>>At our 14ft only regattas, everyone gets back to the beach roughly at the same time after a great race where everyone has a great time on boats which don't cost two arms and a leg to own and don't take *any* extra time to rig or de-rig, and because they are 14ft only regattas, it doesn't matter a squirt what the bigger spinnaker boats are doing.


If there are such good 14 foot fleet anyway than why start a F14 class at all ? Then we shouldn't mess with a good thing.

>>Sorry Wouter I thought that's what we do here?

That is indeed what we do here. However 20 min extra time for the spi is not realistic. That fact remains unchanged.

Quote:
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I think even the A-cats themselves will become a victim in time. Either that or they too must incorporate a spi.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Please explain???
They'd have to be insane to go down that road. IMHO it would destroy the class.


I did just that in my former post. Because the A-cat get wacked on the race course by spi boats. Part of the A-cat class attractiveness was that they were the outright fastest boats around. Now with spinnakers they have big trouble finishing ahead of low tech boats. Their advantage upwind is nearly never enough to compensate for the spi advantage of the other boats. I may destroy the class but then again the same story went around about the Tornado's changing rigs and the Mossie changing rigs. Looks how both have bounched back or are now bounching back.

A-cat lived as long as they did but addapting to the changing situation and incorporating new technologies. I'll bet hords of people predicted that the Carbon mast would destroy the A-cat class as well. If the A-cat stayed as the 70's timber cat with alu mast than it would have died out long ago. Adaptation and modifications are keywords in survival.



Quote:
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It is exactly this exclusive "I want my own start" mindset that fragmented the cat scene. Therefor it will not provide a route back to the glory times.


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Not logical.


Let me explain. When looking at processes that degrade or weaken it can be said that the path that got you to where you are now will never get you back to the old situation. Therefor there is no point in trying to be even better at what you have been doing all along. If it didn't work yesterday or the day before than chances are that it won't today or tomorrow.



>>You miss my point. I'm talking about 14ft only regattas where all 14ft classes compete together.


I would like to have all F16 fleet of large numbers tomorrow as well, but that is not going to happen. We need to grow into that. Without a growth path you are going nowhere.

Excuse me for using your 430 example on you.

If the 430 is such a great boat then why aren't there big fleets of it sailing all over the world ?

If you think the solution is to be better at what you have been doing till now than I think you are deluding yourself that change is about to come.


>>We've been doing it for 12years. We get 50+ 14's of various designs on the start line. We'll be doing two regattas this season and hopefully a GP type circuit not too far down the track.

Great, Than stick to it and give F14 a boot. However I don't know of any other places in the world that mirrors this.

So the scene in my eyes is not that rosy. It is more likely on the path of extinction where a pocket is holding out valiantly in Australia.



>>Large fleets of reasonably inexpensive, uncomplicated boats of various designs competing against each other on a common course. What could be better than that?


I don't know, are buyers running down your door yet ? (Sorry to so harsh in my comments but I think you are getting my line of though)

Please note that although my comments may be harsh I give them hoping to make the F14 a succces.

Wouter

Yea...had to sell the metal mast with the other 14. Right now I still have all the parts and pieces for the F14 except the mast. I'm looking for a carbon replacement. The 14 looks lonely without a mast on it!

Bob

I think Wouter you are stuck in the catamaran mindset where due to the general lack of support for the cats in the sailing world (cats aren't nearly as popular as mono's), and the resultant small fleet outcomes, most cat regattas by necessity have to run combined class racing to get sufficient numbers to justify running a regatta at all. Not so in mono racing where there are sufficient numbers of one design boats to hold a regatta with only one class represented.
That's what I see as being the goal to reach with 14ft cats. It's already been done. There is NO future in trying to include 14ft cats at open cat regattas where even if you fitted five kites they would still be half an hour late back to the beach behind the Tornado's.

We are on our way here in Oz. It may just be that the rest of the world follows Australia in 14ft racing. It's happened before. We might be a small time backwater in the big bad swamp of life but that doesn't rule out the possibility of us 'going it alone'.

You're very negative Wouter and I understand why having spent time trying to organise cat racing, it can a be very disappointing and disillusioning experience but we shouldn't stop trying.
I think we have something unique here. Maybe it's just embryonic but the seed is planted and what may grow is anyone's guess.

I also see that any formula class would be better trying to include as many different classes in the formula is possible to try to create sufficient numbers to run a regatta in their own right. You'll never get any joy IMHO holding F16 regattas amongst F18's, Tornado's, F20 when it happens. They'll get hammered and all your people will want to move on the bigger boats thus depleting your fleets (bigger is better mentality), very unproductive.

Your scenario of getting back to the beach so long after the big boats finish that the beer is warm is just as relevant in F16 sailing against F18, 'T's' etc. Open your mind mate, look beyond the present and be optimistic that cat sailing may one day be as popular as mono sailing and F16 will have sufficient numbers to run F16 only regattas where they'll be the FIRST boats back to the beach. It's the only way forward for smaller boats IMHO or do you suggest we give up racing 14ftrs. Problem with that is there's no training class, no entry level boat to attract new blood no reasonably economical uncomplicated cats at all. Not good.
I just can't see how at a time when cat sailing is struggling, you see an improved outcome coming from making it more expensive, more complicated, more difficult to go sailing. Maybe it's just me.
Bern
P.S. I bet the Laser people are happy they didn't consult you before building that boat.

Hey come on a bit fellas! we all seem to be argueing over "personal points of view! most people know that you can't change someones opinion by simply arguing about it. Whether spinnakers do or don't become the standard on cats, whether or not "A" class go spinnaker, whether or not an F14 revitalises 14' cat sailing are all "achedemic points of view" at this point in time! time is the only factor that will show which road is travelled.
When you put catamaran and for that matter ALL sailing into context, you realise that for sailing to expand as a sport it depends more than anything on the current socio economic conditions!
sailing has never been a "main stream" sport, (compared to "football, baseball, rugby, basketball", etc etc, it is virtually "non existant" and as such it is very much influenced by the amount of disposable income that the "common man" has available after meeting his esentual living expenses.
It will never be "main stream" no matter how much we (sailors) would like it to be. In the past, the slightest downturn in a local economy has proved disaterous to the number of people sailing, much more so than any other part of society that I can think of, (sailing is like a barometer to the condition of an economy) it's only when "times are good" that sailing "takes off" and every time that that has happened over the last 50 years its directions have changed,
In the early 50's, when marine ply first became available there was a boom in "home built" ply dingy's (which established most of the yacht clubs in Australia). In the late 60's when fibreglass was incorporated there was a boom in catamarans. In the late 70's there was a boom in sail boards, and in the late 90's this current mini boom in spinnakers on cats started. What is the common point about all these "booms"?? Well in between each of them there was a minor (or major) downturn in the economy, and when the "boom" movements all started and reached their peaks they were tied inextricably with the improving and booming economy's! At the start of every boom the "established classes all voiced the opinions that the "new kids on the block" were just a passing fad and wouldn't last!!! How wrong each and every one of those opinions were! The same could be said of spinnakers, but who is game enough to state that and stand by their opinion? I heard many cat sailors say before sail boards were accepted into the Olympics that they (sailboards) would very soon die as a stupid fad - wrong again - throughout the 70's dingy sailors were adamant that cats aren't "real boats" and will curl up in a corner and die, wrong! Fibreglass for boats is too heavy, too slow, and too expensive, remember that?
Forget the arguments fellas, there are just too few cats sailors around to be arguing over such unimportant things, lets agree to disagree and get on with putting on a united front and "promote ALL catamarn sailing". It doesn't matter what you sail and "which is best" that doesn't last. The best doday is second tomorrow anyway. The good points are that we all love "CATAMARANS" in their many different and varied forms, shapes and performances, lets all remember that and the rest will follow its natural progression.

Besides at the clubs in South Australia it doesn't matter if you get back to the beach at 10 pm, the beer is still cold, the showers are still hot and the tractors are still available to tow your boat up the beach, and most of the sailors never leave the club bar until well after dark. PERHAPS we're just lucky here in GOD'S OWN COUNTRY???

1) It looked fun.
2) It is fun.
3) It seems the only reasonable way, being located in the southeast USA,I can get back to class racing in a 14' single handed cat.
4) the cost was very reasonable for me to rebuild my boat.

My real hope now is that the latter goal of racing these things somehow gets realized....

Pat

Whatever gets "bums on boats" on the water is AOK by me, (ps "BUMS" in Australia is the same as butt in the USA, not a "down and out" or "tramp")

Don't get excited Daz, we're just have a lively discussion, nothing personal just a good debate old mate . Struth, we should be able to discuss stuff, it's what makes the world go round well that a sailing anyway.
Bern

Hey Guys,
Valid points all round, and a good, argumentative but non-confrontational discussion going on here.
Bern, problem with guys like me & Wouter is that we`re addicted to pure speed. The spinnaker makes SAILING the boat so much more fun that I wouldn`t be able to sail without it. Having said that, if I raced in a non-spin. fleet I`d ditch the kite & compete on equal terms, so in that respect i`d agree with you. I`d be the first one to go back to a Paper Tiger if we had a strong class here.
On the flip-side, if you sail with a kite everyone else looks on in disbelief as you fly a hull downwind in 5 knots & thinks "hey, looks like fun, for a small investment I can add that turbocharger to my boat too !". Of course there`s no guarantee it will work out that way, you may have a divided fleet as you said, and the whole fragile setup that exists currently could collapse. We had very real concerns when adding the kite to the Mozzie in SA (South Africa, not South Australia !), but after a year and a half we have shown considerable growth and a re-awakening in our existing fleet : Example - a Mozzie sailor sold his Mozzie & bought a Hobie 16, and has now sold the H16 & bought a new Mozzie with kite, as it looks more exciting & is faster than the Hobie. So we won back a sailor we thought we`d lost. My point is that if you don`t keep your class exciting to the sailors who ARE ALREADY IN IT, you will really struggle to attract new sailors, and may lose a few of the existing guys to faster boats. Of course, there is a place for non-spinn. 14ft boats, as newcomers to sailing would be overwhelmed by the spinnaker if they buy a high-performance boat first time. Not too many beginners start off on Tornados or I-20`s.
One thing I can`t agree with Wouter on is the A-class, it`s a perfect single-hander, and just becuase it isn`t the fastest catamaran anymore due to the introduction of spinnakers in other classes doesn`t mean it can`t survive without a spinnaker. I don`t believe that it will suffer just becuase other boats are quicker, as a class it will remain strong as long as it is supported by it`s class memnbers. Since it is the pinnacle of development class single handed sailing I don`t see a threat.
The Laser class is still strong despite the 29er being faster, I don`t think you`ll see a spinnaker on the Laser anytime soon.
The main resaon I think sailing is on a decline is that we are not doing enough to get NON_SAILORS into the sport, new boats come onto the market, but the only people buying them are existing sailors, so that in turn causes a decline in older classes.

Cheers
Steve

I think you are absolutely right Steve. There has been NO serious thought or effort put into recruiting new blood into cat sailing for a very long time that I know of. The 14ftrs, are undoubtedly the best entry level class but it has been seriously neglected by cat entrepreneurs the world over. I've raced 14ftrs for the past 15 odd years and the technology is still 20-30years old. Except for my 430 there has been almost No development in 14ft cats over that time, a sad state of affairs. I agree it could be argued that there's been no input because there's been no interest but it could just as easily be argued that there's been no interest because there's been no development. The problem seems to be that organisers don't seem to appreciate the importance of providing for, or encouraging younger sailors. Rather, smaller boats here in Australia anyway, are generally seen as a bloody nuisance at open regattas.
My interest is in supporting the 14ft effort and encouraging young sailors wherever possible.

No I don't see the 'A' class ever adopting a spinnaker. Like formula 1 in motor racing, their whole philosophy is to extract maximum performance from a minimum energy source. There's definitely a valid place for formula 1 race cars as there is also a place for 125 GP race bikes but just not racing on the same circuit at the same time as the Moto GP bikes. Formula 1 will never race with 6 litre V8's.
I see 14ftrs as the 125's, and the A's as the formula 1's of sailing. We've just got to get the idea across that, like the 125's, 14ft cats have a valid and indispensible place in the cat world.
Bern

P.S. Wouter you're right in that even though my 430 is the fastes 14ft cat in the world by a street it's not attracting much interest but you think if I make even faster by fitting kite it will?

Ok so here's the provisional capitulation Wouter (sort of):).

Thinking about this further and somewhat as a result of your comments I've realised that a market exists for the 430 with kite for those who might currently be sailing a less than optimal 16 two up, and who might want to go single handed on a hi tech. 14 with equal or better performance than what they are accustom to.
I will continue with development along the lines that a purchaser can opt for fitting the kite or not in a campaign where both classes could be catered for.
Bern

>>>Formula 1 will never race with 6 litre V8's

You may be right about that but for different reason than you assign to it

Formula 1 engines :

"It is now well established that the optimum swept volume for a 4-stroke, petrol-burning cylinder is between 250cc and 300cc, representing 12-cylinder and 10-cylinder 3-liter engines respectively"

And I think they are running 3 liter V10's as mandated by regulations right now.

So much for your 6 liter V8. It is doubtful this engine will outperform the 3 liter V10 with regard to speed. In racing the reach in RPM is just as important as raw power.

Currently the power of F1 V10's is more than Cart and NASCAR's ; I'm told



>>P.S. Wouter you're right in that even though my 430 is the fastes 14ft cat in the world by a street it's not attracting much interest but you think if I make even faster by fitting kite it will?

No, but making sailing it more exiting and modern will. If everybody wants to buy red cars than why would a manufacturer try to convince the public that they really want a black one ?

Wouter

Hey Wouter, I don't think that a V10 motor will fit in any of my cats!!! (he he he)
But seriously though (sounds like a Monty Python movie, "but seriously folks"), wouldn't we cover all the bases if we were to adopt both a formula 14 AND a 14a class for the 14' cats??
The formula 14 would encompass any new F14 style cats with spinnaker, as well as ALL the existing cats (with or without spinnaker) and the 14A would fit all the new designed F14 cats sailing WITHOUT their spinnakers?
To me that would represent the best of all worlds! Every configuration that any sailor could wish to sail with would be catered for with the least amount of disruption and the greatest amount of participation??
Darryl

Hi Darryl, Bernie, Wouter & anyone else interested.
I think what we`ve learned from F16 growth & non-growth in certain areas can perhaps give some valuable insight as to what might or might not work.
Firstly, from this thread alone it`s clear to see that F14/16 must grow in different regions in different ways, such that it promotes the greatest level of interest in the specific region. In F16 this has lead to allowing non-optimised F16 boats such as the Mosquito to become "part of the class" which has helped F16 get a foot in the door in countries where it could otherwise not exist, like South Africa, and has been beneficial to both parties.
Locally you might have to improvise on the class structure to get buy-in from local sailors - At Bernie`s club this might mean having a spin. & non-spin. class separately if numbers allow, or perhaps racing on handicap within the class which seems to work for them now. Ultimately spinnakers will filter into the 14ft open class, it is still just as important to attract sailors who don`t wish to sail with one for whatever reason - you might win them over in time, but not if they lose interest & pack it in to take up another sport.
I think the US guys are on the right track, get as many sailors of older generation 14fters to upgrade what they have & compete with newer 14`s such as the Mystere. That way the new generation boats don`t make the older ones obsolete.

Good luck in making it happen !

Cheers
Steve

Honestly, if someone wants to sail uni, they'll likely buy an A-cat. Spinnaker sailing is more speed and more fun. More "wow" to those sailing and those watching.

It's like the Chevy v8 conversion for the Pontiac Fiero....

Hi Steve, Hi Brian,
The box rule that has been "kicked" around here. if it is encompassed will hopefully obviate any problems for all "14" cats. There are two drafts. one to cover all new F14 cats AND incorporate ALL the existing 14' cats as well and another box rule for an "A" class 14' cat, that is esentually a cat built to the "new" F14 rule BUT sailed without a spinnaker, (it can be converted simply by adding the spinnaker) Both "box rules" would be incorpoated within the constitution for a new association for 14' cats.
It would appear that it is necessary to have an F14 rule for any "new" designs that are built expressly within the box rule (as opposed to all the various size and shaped "existing" 14' cats), and similarly for a non spinnakered version of the same ie new designs built within the box rule.
This will then cover and include ALL 14' cats equatibly with the maximum of harmony
I will include below the two potentual "box rules"


The “Box rule” governing an F14 catamaran is –

1. L.O.A. of the hulls (excluding any “T foils, rudders and all rudder fittings) 4.34 metres
2. Maximum Beam Overall 2.5 metres
3. Mast Height, unrestricted, although the mast can only
form a percentage of the total sail area of no more than 15%
of the mainsail area, i.e. no “solid” wing sail
(articulated or not).
All the sails shall be of a “soft” fabric type
4. Maximum Sail Area (including half the area of the
mast bounded by the luff length of the main sail), shall not exceed 27.87 sq metres (300 sq feet)
This maximum area includes the combination of the
areas of ALL sails whether there be a mains’l, a jib,
and a spinnaker, or any combination there of.
The measurements of all the sails shall be by the calculation of the “actual” sail area.
5. Construction materials are unrestricted
6. Minimum Weight (all up sailing weight minus crew) 50 kgs
7. “T” foils (not hydrofoils) used primarily, ONLY for the stablelization of pitch, and only if attached to, or forming part of the rudders, or attached to the aft underside of the hull within 300mm of the transoms, and that the angle of “attack” of the “T” foils are non adjustable whilst sailing, are allowed. No attached foil shall exceed the width of the allowable beam of the catamaran, as allowed within this box rule.
8. Closed cell foam buoyancy is required to be fixed internally in the hulls, sufficient to maintain the vessel, and its crew,
in the upright position, with the hulls at, or above the
surface of the water, when one or both hulls are
completely full of water.
9. Number and weight of crew are unrestricted. (with reference to “Crew and Crew Weight” in the preceding section of the class rules)
10. Any spinnaker pole, or spinnaker pole fittings shall not protrude further forward of the forward most point of the bows (measured at 90 degrees from the centre of a line connecting the two most forward parts of the bows of each hull), by more than one metre.
11. All 14’ catamarans, designed and “on the water”, before the incorporation of this constitution, that have a hull length no greater than 14'6", and carry a sail area, (inclusive of all the working sails, including half the area of the mast bounded by the luff length of the main sail, and a spinnaker/reacher) no greater than 300 sq ft IN TOTAL, can race with, and compete against, the F14 catamarans designed and built to conform within this "box rule", on an equal, "across the line first wins". Albeit that they, (the pre existing 14' catamarans) shall be allocated an appropriate handicap/rating (per class of catamaran), for their finishing times against each other (that is the pre existing 14' designed catamarans) for competition within their own "division", exclusive of the "new" F14 catamarans.
12. From time to time, by an agreed vote of the membership of the F14 catamaran association, catamarans that do not fit within the preceding “box rule” definitions (from item no 1. through to item 11. inclusive) may be allowed inclusion to sail/compete with and against all those catamarans that comply to the afore mentioned items 1. through to and including item 11. by being afforded an appropriate handicap/rating, designed to keep all racing results fair and equitable between different “classes” of catamarans so competing.





4.3metre, “A” class,
“box” rules for“ open” development class catamaran.

The craft must be a catamaran, having two identical hulls of equal volume, with the rudders attached at/to the transom/s i.e. not extended out from the stern of the craft so as to effectively “extend” the waterline length of the hull/s.

Maximum hull length
(excluding rudders & rudder fittings)
4.34 metres
Maximum beam (over all)
2.5 metres
Mast height unrestricted, although
the mast can only form a percentage
of the total sails area of no more than 15%
of the mainsail area, i.e. no “solid” wing
sail (articulated or not). All the sails shall be
of a “soft” fabric type

Maximum sail area, including half the area of
the mast, bounded by the luff length of the main sail,
(without wrinkles or folds in the luff). The sail shall be of a single “laminate”.
145.31 sq ft 13.5 sq metres

Minimum, all up sailing weight
i.e. hulls, beams, mast, boom, all rigging and
sheeting, rudders, centre/dagger boards, in
fact the entire cat excluding only the sail(s)
and crew
111 lb (imp’) 50 KG
Crew unrestricted

Construction material unrestricted

Hydrofoils.
“Hydrofoils” that are used to “lift” the hull(s) due to the forward movement through the water of the catamaran, (i.e. these foils are of an asymmetric profile, designed to generate upwards lift by the action of their movement through the water), are not allowed.

“T” foils (as opposed to “hydrofoils”)
Used only for the stablelization of pitch, and only of a symmetrical profile, without having any adjustment to the angle of “attack” of the foils whilst sailing (i.e. not independent of the movement of the hulls), and only if attached to, or forming part of the rudders, or attached to the underside of the hull(s) within 300mm 0f the transom(s), are allowed. No foil(s) shall protrude to any point wider than the maximum allowable beam of the class (i.e. or 2.5 metres).

Closed cell foam buoyancy is required to be permanently fixed internally in the hulls, sufficient to maintain the vessel, and its crew, in the upright position, at or above the surface of the water, when one or both hulls are completely full of water. (safety rule)

Well it seems like you guys are onto something good! (and giving me ideas for when I upgrade from the paper tiger)

Berne : with the spinnaker and headsail what are you expecting to sell your revamped 430 for?

Darryl : do you have any pictures of the alpha omega? even of the old one that most resembles what the new one will look like?

I reckon F14 is a great idea, and anything that can haul the mail with a hobie 16 and has less waterline than them is okay with me (too many of them in WA)

I think though that having a formula within a formula will complicate things though (the suggestion of an 'A' class for the newer spin boats) why dont you put everything down to yardsticks and work it out from there, or simply run races for CAT JAM or SPI

lets show them how us aussies do 14 footers!

(oh and p.s. wouter ; what are these AHPC 'quick knots' you speak of? you didnt attach said picture and I cant find anything on the web!)

...