Spi for 430/F14

Being made as we speak finally. Should be ready by the end of the week. I'm getting the slightly fuller kite. I now have the winter four months to set it up and get used to sailing with it. I actually built a scale setup to check dimensions etc. I've got a new design concept for the pole and snuffer I'm working on. More on that later.
Anyone interested, I'll keep you posted.

Photo's Berny??

Yes Darryl, as soon as I get it sorted.
Got a bit of vid footage Anzac day at the Yarra Bay regatta, ie me smoking a H16 downwind in 22 knotts
I flipped it on the jibe mark though and DNF'd.

spinnaker setups arnt that hard im 12 and i rigged one up on my friends maricat i attatched some pics

I'm impressed. The Mari looks very cool with a kite. Is that on Lake Macquarie?

That spinnaker set looks very nice. Have you thought of using the same perimeter cut kite but much flatter? Your absolutely correct though when you say that it isn't hard to set up a kite on a cat. I makes you wonder what is stopping all the other cat sailers from doing the same? especially on existing 14' cats where the difference in performance is so noticable.

that is our medium we have a much bigger assimetrical cherub kite that was to flat for the cherub the performance differents in light winds is a lot bigger than in the heavy stuff

yeah its on lake maquarie wangi guess what they cancelled our best regatta the polar bear coz the f18 sailers weren't very polite to the race commitee last time

So who is on the boat in the pics?

Are you able to put the spin up by yourself whilst sailing or is it a 2 person job on the Maricat.

its me trimming and my friend grant who owns the boat is steering i hav a hobie 14 turbo yeah u can put it up by urself but its preety hard

Cat sailing 4eva- saw your post and tried to find some info about the Gemini 14. Couldn't find anything about them. Do you know if they are an Australian Catamaran. Do they have dagger boards or are they an asymetrical hull and don't require them? What is it made of? Are you going to put a spinnaker on the hobie? Regards Nick

Nick:

This is all I could find in search on Gemini 14.

http://www.dngoodchild.com/5284.htm

Doug

the gemini doesnt look anythin like that it does hav daggerboards the one that i sailed has new sails and a huge rig it will hav a #3 16foot skiff kite on it um i tried the spin on the hobie it wasnt to good no where near as good as the maricat

Na that's a different Gemini Doug. The one Nic is asking about is a 14ft boat built by Bill Nocholl of Wangie on L. Macquarie. This boat, plus another 14 built by AHPC, all appeared about the same time I put the 430 on the water. I don't think they are available any more. The geminis are a moulded glass boat with dagger boards and went well with lighter crew as did the one by Jim Boyer. Ian Marcovich had a lot to do with the Gemini early on. Ian now sails Paper Tigers and I haven't heard from Bill for some years. The AHPC product disapeared too.
It's a hard school here in the backwaters.

Thanks Berny! I have a set of sails ordered from Geof Adams for another F14 and when I rang them this week they have put your spinnaker ahead of mine!! Puts me back a week. That’s OK though; I understand that you are driving up there to pick it up on Sunday? From talking to them I understand that yours will be the same as the green one that we put up a few months back? That spinnaker works really well, it takes a little getting used of setting it so that the luff works properly. That's because of it's slight extra "fullness" and luff “shoulders”, but once you work it out with the right tension on the halyard (don't set it with the halyard/luff pulled "tight") it really "gets up and fly's".
They asked me for the position points for the retrieval line on the kite, so I measured where we had them then told them something entirely different!!! That will teach you to “jump the queue” (only kidding)
Darryl

If memory serves me, the Gemini wasn’t a 14’ cat but measured a touch over 15’ and that was its “Achilles heel”, it didn’t fit any “recognised” size. It didn’t race against the 14’ cats sailing at the time and it wasn’t competitive against the 16’ cats. A bit like the Prindle 15’ around the same time - an odd size – and neither of them gained much of a following because of that.

Nuer, I had my order in weeks ago but because I was still working on the pole and stuff Geof held off making it and anyway I told them to put the patches in different places to yours with a different setup sussed from my scale model .

um this gemini was made by bill but was modified after building and is 14' they cut the front of and made the bows straight a great improvement

can u post some pics of ur setups when ur finished i wanna see wat everyone is runnin

Have a look at the photo's at this link
http://www.formula14.yachting.org.au

Shame the 430 has been removed from the site.

lets see it with the spinnaker set up berny (F14 not just 14) and it will have a permanent showing

Yeah but there are pics of the AO there before it was F14 and what about all the pics of the retro's.
If the site was truly F14, you'd reasonably expect to see a good cross section of what's about. Presently, we'd have to be excused for thinking it was the OA site.

Every photo on there Berny is F14! Every cat shown there was set up with, and sailed with spinnaker and every one conformed to within the F14 box rule (even in one case before the box rule was finalised), but the most important thing though Berny is that we have written permission from the owners of those photos allowing us to use them. There have been some other shots IE of a Hobie 14 with kite and of your 430, which haven't been true" F14 within the "box rule" of the F14 association, and those shots were "lifted" from the internet (which makes us a little nervous when it comes to "copyright" etc), we are only too pleased to show any F14 cat (whether "new" or “retro”) as long as it does not fall so far away from the Box rule F14 concept as to be in some obviously different class, AND if we have been sent those photos by their owners with their permission for us to use them. Without their owners written permission it's too tenuous to post them from our site (so we have been told, in no uncertain manner, by the site provider. So any photos that anyone would like to see posted on the F14 catamaran association site, please email them to us together with their permission for us to use them (as long as the sender is the person who has the right to give such permission)
We would love to have your photos to post.

Question; best material to make the sock from? I currently have one my best friend (wife <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />) made me from light weight tarp material. I think I'd rather something with holes, some sort of mesh maybe? Tramp material (too heavy?) shade cloth? spinnaker cloth (exy)? or something else I haven't thought of? What are the spi people useing?

When choosing a material for the sock think about abrasion. When I sourced a mesh for the first sock that I made, I used some flyscreen mesh that I already had. The result was that after just 2-3 hoists/douses the spin was showing areas that had slight 'furring' and some threads pulling from seam edges.

I then found some really soft mesh that was quite slippery, in a garden supplies store - I don't know what it would normally be used for - and it has been really good.

The sock on the Stealth is made from Pentex and causes no problems at all, it's smooth and slippery inside and because of its laminated construction stays open well so that the kite doesn't 'stick' as I have seen with the softer Dacron socks.

Darryl, What is it about Berny's 430 that negates it being considered as an F14? Apart from the obvious...that it didn
't have a spinnaker. Surely if someone wanted to enter their Catamaran as an F14 it would be up to them if they chose to sail it without the spinnaker? I am under the impression Berny's 430 is like yours, a homebuilt/own design and would therefore be whatever he chooses to call it and as it is 4.3 metres long and as far as I know complies with the other restrictions in the box rule. I would have thought an email seeking his approval to use the photo(s) would have been a much less confrontational way of dealing with this issue, than removing his boat from the F14 website, especially since he seems to be one of the sailors at the forefront of getting this class off the ground in Australia. I am not intentionally taking anyones side and of course I may and probably have missed some important point but would welcome some clarification. Nick

Is that one of your AO prototypes on ebay at the moment?

There isn't any problem posting any F14 photo's on the web site, as long as we have some form of written permission from the owner of those photos allowing them to be made public on that site. The site host has informed us that we need that written conformation before we can post "other persons" material, so any photos that are sent/posted/emailed to us together with the owners permission for us to use them, we will post (unless they are absolute crap of course). We had shots of Bernys 430 posted and had to remove them because we had "lifted" them from another web site and we had no right to use them without permission from that site (as well as from Berny).
Verbal permission isn't worth the paper it's printed on in a court of law.

Nick, it ain't important old son, I was just revving Darryl up <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> It really makes no difference to me one way or the other.


Link Nick?

The link is http://www.ebay.com.au, then type in alpha omega catamaran in the search for part. At present it hasn't met the reserve. The bid at the moment is $305 with 4days to run.
As for the previous post :It was a genuine enquiry, not intended to wind anyone up.Nick

No it's a good point Berny. It is also an opportunity to ask any one out there if they have any good photos of "F14" cats to post us a copy with a release from the owners for us to post them on the web site.
It would help greatly in compiling a visual recording of the growth of the F14 class.
Please post any photos to
ao14@optusnet.com.au

That AO Nick is an early 4.4 Alpha. It was built in about 1981 looking at the deck layout. This was not any "forerunner" or prototype for the Alpha F14 as although in profile you can see that they are both "from the same stable", they are completely different designs with totally different handling and sailing chartacteristics.

Got one of these;
http://www.users.tpg.com.au/davehart/Tornado/

What's the best way to fix it to the pole? I'm thinking three pop rivets (5mm) along the bottom. Sound about right?

Bern,
The mossie guys are using a swimming pool filter materials.
It is super slippery and is full of holes so it drains.
I'm told it is imported from NZ.
I think it is the best material I've seen so far.
I think Erwin Sails imports it just or this purpose.

Regards,
Phill

Well finally the spi is up and running. I sailed with it yesterday in very light conditions and so far I like it.
It's different sailing and I have a lot of things to get used to but first impressions are good and the boat seems to be fast as I expected it would considering the talent of the bloke who designed and built it ha ha. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
Hoisting and lowering were a bit hit and miss. If I get it all right, it goes up and down without a hitch but there does seem to be some traps which I need to come to grips such as tangles, or not being on quite the right heading etc., which will cause it to hang up, and plus other dumb stuff like not releasing the sheet from the cleat. I pulled the eyelet out of the tramp in one of my frenzied attempts to dowse the thing before I ran out of water, (Concord) which is being fixed today. I think I need a small turning block under the tramp.

I need to sail as much as I can now to become familiar with the processes and to sort out a few minor details. If the wind isn't too strong next Satdy, (I doubt I could handle anything heavier than about 10 knots yet), and I can get some more time on the water before then, I'll go down to Woollarah and see how it goes amongst other boats, (crash and burn)?

Oh, and the 430 is probably now the fastest 14ft (4.3m) cat in the world. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Are you still under the 300sq.ft. sail area F14 rule?

Yes, the spi is not huge at 10sqm but seems to be enough sailing one up.

I sailed again today. I had a much better day coming to grips with the spinnaker. Only a light breeze around 5/8knotts probably gusting 10/12knotts but I was able to fly a hull downwind quite easily with some good depth after a couple of runs. Good fun.
A couple of problems.
Halyard has too much stretch resulting in luff sag in the gusts. Gotta get some decent rope. Recommendations?
I changed the tack line to 1:1 and it works better with less surplus on the tramp when the kite is up.

I got a strange spi sheet tangle during one deployment. It got tangled around the snuffer mouth somehow. I re-stowed and re-launched the kite and it fixed it. I need to try to figure out what happened there.
It took me an age to rig the thing. Anyone care to help with the best procedure for hooking up the halyard and retrieval lines?

Bern,
The spi sheet can tangle on the snuffer mouth unless you run a light line from the mouth to the bridle tang fitting on the hull. This blocks the spi sheet from getting around the snuffer mouth.
As far as rigging.
Some people leave it all connected and just take sails down and undo forestay and one spi pole line and put the whole lot on the trailer with even spi pole and side stays attached.
So you need the spi pole to be supported by tieing to the
fron mast support on the trailer. Spi stays in the snuffer and all lines including halyard, spi sheets etc stay in place.
May take a bit of planning to make this system work for you but it makes rigging very quick.

Regards,
Phill

Thanks Phil, I don't know about leaving stays connected to the mast, it's not something I like to do. My main hassle so far has been sorting the retrieval through the spi and attaching the tackline, halyard and sheet without a twist. I think I could leave the retrieval line (halyard) attached to the spi and leave it all in the sock. That'd make it a lot easier.

I flipped the boat again on the jibe mark yesty. 22 knotts, traveller down about 300mm, sheet cracked but firm, spi stowed. I bore away, waited, then pulled the sail across, got myself to the new windward side just in time to be tossed off the tramp as the boat rolled over. Bloody frustrating. I'm now thinking I'm probably turning through too larger an angle and I'm actually around to a beam reach before I'm set. I think I need to steer down after the sail pops. On a mid downwind jibe, this would give me time to set the kite and then harden up. Sound reasonable? Either that or leave the boat on the beach when it's over 15k untill I'm sorted. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Bern,
Basically in high winds your better off keeping the angle small and stalling the main until the kite is set.
Go through too great an angle and the main not tight enough and your gone.
This is just what I've found.
Regards,
Phill

It's sometimes hard to stall the top of a big top main though. One of their advantages is they allow more twist and are generally more powerful high, and this also makes them more difficult to control off the wind. Not a problem in lighter winds but it would seem that as the wind strength increases and the sheet is cracked, the top twists off and powers up as you bear away driving the lee bow in.
I think that dropping the traveller and leaving the sheet on hard might be the answer in that it would tend to control the twist more. That is if the traveller can operated under the load which is doubtful.

On another note, does anyone jibe their kite on a cat? I mean as opposed to tacking it?

Be careful dropping the traveler, even with the main sheeted tight you might lose needed support for running the spinnaker.

I think you have that back to front Berny, we always jibe the kite downwind (although we have tacked the kite when sailing very high with it in very light conditions) and dropping the traveller IS more stable than dropping the mainsheet when the kite is up. And the size of the kite and its take off point on the mast, means that you still have a lot of support when dropping either the main or the traveller when the kite is set on your cat.

This can only be an issue if your mast rotation limiter is still on. If the mast is much rotated then dumping the maintraveller is (in my opinion) not a problem in any wind.

Wouter

I'm not sure I understand how the traveller position effects the spi support. Sheet yes but traveller?
I have discovered that mainsheet tension seriously effects spi luff tension. I also found out yesterday that it's better to get the kite across and set before tacking (popping) the main in light airs.

Darryl, I think you may have mistaken my meaning. When I asked about jibing the kite I didn't mean tacking or jibing the boat. I note in the pics you sent me that your spi sheets run behind (aft of) the halyard which indicates that you tack and not jibe the kite on the AO.

absolutely correct Berny - jibe the boat - tack the kite, I had never thought of it as that way, if the kite was jibed, there would be one hell of a mess of spinnaker sheet lines!!!

Light mylar or pentex cloth. Works fine for me ! Appears to be exactly the same as your mainsail cloth but is just a more lightweight version of it.

Leave the bag open at the back with only a single strap with eye to guide the retrieval line and prevent the spi from being pulled out.

Wouter

I just use a knot to limit the travel of the tackline through the pole end block to stop the spi being pulled out.

Bern,
Don't crack the sheet. Pull it on.
Only when the kite is set and the boat up to speed do you easy the sheet a little to get the main out of its stalled situation.
If you are concerned about the big head not being stalled pull the sheet on real hard just before you jibe but make sure you go through a very small angle. Just enough for the jibe.


Regards,
Phill

Yes, that sounds like the best way to do it. I'm still in a bit of a headspin at the moment till I get more time on the water.
I have realised that the boat wants to round up with no pressure in the kite so it's essential to get it set quickly. I also need to pay more attention to the telltails so I know exactly where I am going through the jibe. All pretty obvious stuff but in the heat of the moment, logic sometimes goes out the window. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

On another note, it took me two hours + to rig on Sunday. I know it will get easier as I work out the best proceedure, but!
I'm looking at simplifying the whole setup, maybe using more toggle pins, possibly a cordless screwdriver for the shackles etc.

It takes us about 3/4 of an hour to rig the Alpha Berny, but that's 10 minutes to rig and the rest of the time is usually "sociallising" with the other guys while rigging.

"us"? 10 minutes! How many of you are involved in the AO rigging process?
I have to do it on my own, but then I'm a slow rigger anyway. It generally takes me an hour or more to cat rig 430. I like to do things right without forgetting stuff or breaking anything. I seldom have problems on the water though and that's how I like it. I find that if I start talking before I'm finished, the time flys and then I'm rushing to get it done which makes me late on the water, and I hate that, especially at an unfamiliar venue.

That "us" is like the royal "we" Berny, meaning in reality just the one person. Don't worry, when the rigging with spinnaker becomes "automatic" and you don't have to stop and "work it all out" every time that you go sailing, I am sure that the time will come down dramatically. Like most things, the more familiar you are, the easier it becomes, (except for old "farts" like me)

mate, I'm not as young as I used to be, and I wasn't young then. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Here;
http://www.imagestation.com/album/pictures.html?id=4287241557

Ain't it the truth Berny, although the older we get "the better we were"

Hi guys, do you think it would be possible to put a Dart 16 or 18 gennaker on a H14 Turbo.
Thanks

It depends on whether the mast is tall enough and of course, how much of a thrillseaker you are. You may be able to put one on the boat but sailing it in any sort of breeze would probably be out of the question.

Let him go Berny, any change to a Hobie 14 has to be an improvement (HEE, HEE,)

Darryl, if guys or gals are keen to go some way toward improving their 14's and particularly if they are heading toward the F14 concept, however they choose to go about it, I say good on 'em and keep up the good work. Any development of cats new or old has to be a good thing IMHO.
Go for it H14Turbo and good luck with your plan. If you need more help, let me know.