Spinnaker

Looking to put a Spinnaker on my newly aquired mossie, just wondering which sail makers everyone recommends and for what reasons, price, quality etc, i know the VMCA site has Irwin and Goodall Sails listed as having Mosquito spinnaker designs, is there any difference between the 2?

Cheers.
Michael.

Halsey lidgard (saxby sails)in brisbane make really good kites. They are local to you and have made quite a lot of F18 and F16 spinnakers.Try them out

I think Danny is right. You are best off dealing with a local sailmaker you can easily talk to and maybe even meet face-to-face. It's also important that they are familiar with asymetric kites for cats.

Most sailmakers will need the dimensions of your boat to pinpoint the halyard, pole-end and sheeting point. From that they will be able to design a spinnaker. Unless they've made one for a Mosquito before.
Make sure the sailmaker reads the Mosquito rules. There are some maximum dimensions.

If you just want to go ahead and buy one without stuffing around, there are way more Irwin spinnakers on the Mozzies than any other make. You can just order one from Linsay and get it in the post. Last I heard they are $850.

Had a good long chat with Greg Goodall who was gracious enough to give up his time to discuss every aspect of putting a spinnaker on my mossie, he gave me quite alot of info from his personal experience, even went into a few of his racing tactics with spinnakers.

The spinnaker is a little bigger than the Irwin one, with a size of around 15m2 as apposed to the 14.2m2 on the Irwin spinnaker, i actually discussed this with him and from what he said, in his experience reducing the size of the spinnaker to 14.2m wouldnt allow it to sail tighter to the apparent wind as is the theory and reasoning behind the smaller Irwin sail. From his memory the dimension and composition of the spinnaker he does are as follows:
Material: chs 0.75oz nylon
Luff: 6750
Foot: 3350
Leech: 6200
Head: 50
Area: approx. 15m2

However he said he was going to look into it more for me and talk to several people about making sure his dimmensions were up to date and provided the best performance based on the spinnaker size restrictions etc.

Also, he said the spinnaker should probably only need two patches for the retreval line, is there more benifit to having 3 patches (which im under the impression the irwin spinnaker has).

In the end, the cost of the spinnaker came to about $780.

Contacted quite a few local sail makers, however their prices started at $900, and none of them had done a mossie kite before.

Discussed with Greg also about the Ratchet Blocks for the spinnaker sheet and he recommended the newer Ronstant Orbit Ratchet Blocks over the older Smart Ratchet Blocks.

Cant wait to get the spinnaker in a few weeks time
Guess ill need to go visit the local Chandler now

McGriffin,
Are you going to be sailing Cat or Sloop?
Good to hear you are going with Greg Goodall, did you talk to Greg about his aluminium spinnaker shoot, bag and deck layout. I have used both the Irwin/Tim setup and the Greg Goodall style, I would be interested in finding out what you are doing? They both have their positives and negatives and the system we have ended up with was primarily designed by Greg. The reason is we sail sloop and the crew raises and lowers the spinnaker. The system others are using has been developed for the skipper doing all the work.

Peter

Well im hoping to have a system that can be run both sloop and cat rigged, as i occasionally will be putting the jib on and running with a crew, just depends on when the crew are available, and whether weather is permitting (my first race was sloop rigged with a total crew+skipper weight of about 190kg in less than 5 knott winds .... wont be doing that again!).

Im working off the theory, that if the spinnaker can be setup to be easily operated by the skipper on a cat rigged, then the crew should have no problem handling it on a sloop rigged boat. Will have to see how it goes, if position of sheets, lines etc setup for the helm is a problem for the crew, then i may even setup a system that allows different positions depending on whether the kite will be operated by me or the crew, though that shouldnt be too much of an issue. Any thoughts are appreciated.

Cheers.
Michael.

Michael, both you are in for some fun.

The problem we had was deck space for both skipper and crew without sitting on one of the ropes. The sloop method seems to give less problems when sailed cat then the other way around. If you get a chance have a look at a Tornado, Tiapan or Hobie, you will find the spinnaker halyard is cleat is on the mast. The Mossie web site has the halyard cleat is on the deck (cat Rig Style). For the crew to use the cleat on the deck they have to move back along to boat to the skipper position (poor Skipper). If the skipper pulls the spinnaker up the crew sitting in the normal position end up sitting on the spinnaker sheets (Poor Crew).

By moving the Halyard to the mast the skipper stays in their normal position and the crew moves inboard clearing both halyard and spinnaker sheets. Using this system Cat rig the skipper has to move forward about halfway along to tramp to raise the spinnaker, lowering the spinnaker can be done from skipper and crew positions so is not a problem.

Peter

The Ronstan Orbit ratchet blocks have been giving me some trouble on the kite. They keep turning off and the switch got jammed in the off position once. A real pain on a tight reach.

Harken smart ratchets over Ronstan any day! Spend the extra, you wont be sorry.

Why?

I've been using smartratchets on the spinnaker for 6 years now. No problems at all.

Tim, which have you been using? Harken or Ronstan?

The harken ratchets are larger and have more grip on the rope. your hands will be under less pressure while sailing. the harken blocks carry a longer warranty and feel more sturdy in your hand.

the new orbit range are breaking down (typically at the worst times). so for the very little extra get the harkens and then you can forget about them.

I've been using the Ronstan Smartratchets. I find I can hold the spinnaker sheet in one hand with one of these on the sheet. If I'm getting tired I might put a wrap around my hand but usually I just hold it.

I know Gary found that one wasn't enough for his F16 Altered, and he put two Smartratchets on each side. The loads are that much bigger. I would guess an F18 would load up that much more again.

I should mention that all the Mozzies I've seen have this kind of setup to increase the wrap around the ratchet block. Maybe this wouldn't be needed with the harken blocks.

I have the full intention of using an additional ball bearing block to wrap the sheet more effectively around the racket block, just trying to get some opinions about which block is better, i know some people are saying harken are better, but the ronstan block are claiming a 2 times greater holding power of 20:1 compared to the harkens 10:1, i know theres a lot of other variables such as the quality and reliability of the product, which is my major concern (holding power can be increased by simply going to the gym), but ive always considered ronstan to be a good product, i know a few people have complained about them, however im just looking for some more opinions about peoples experience with them.

Thank you.
Michael.

I also use a smart ratchet on the mainsheet.

We don't have the same kind of loads on a Mozzie that F18s and F16s do. I think either Harken or Ronstan will do the job.

One thing to make sure of though is that it has to be the type of ratchet that only engages under load. Otherwise gybing will be a real pain.

Yes both the Ronstan Orbit smart ratchet and the harken carbo ratchmatic blocks are auto engaging when under load, the ronstan block i believe is adjustable in this sence in that it can be set to engage automatically only when under load, or set to manual mode where u can choose when to engage and release. The harken ratchmatic i believe is perminently set to automatic mode.

Also im wondering if anyone has the dimensions of a chute/mouth for the spinnaker as im considering making my own from fibreglass as i have a bit lying around left over from another project.

Cheers.

Buy an AHPC aluminium snuffer ring. Since getting one I can't recommend it enough.

Nick, where abouts in brissy are you racing from, id love to come and have a look at ur setup and maybe even bring my mossie down.

Also, can you recall the price of the snuffer ring and chute bag from AHPC?

hey people,
Not many people know that i sell the fibreglass throat (white triangle thing) all ready to go at $75. and i can get a sock made up and i think thats about $70 ill chech with my sail maker. Aswell i can make you a bridle and forstay and spin pole

Regards matt

Where abouts are you located matt, i have the pole and stays all ready to go, but am interested in the sock and chute mouth.

Can't recall price. A quick email to AHPC and they will get you a quote including delivery. From memory the glass one was cheaper but as I sail sloop I thought it was better to go with the ring.

I race at RQYS most Saturdays, weather permitting (which it hasn't been this season). Come down anytime. It is fairly similar to the F18 setup and they generally race at Humpybong on the south side of Redcliffe which is closer to you.

hey,
Im in victoria on the mornington peninsula,I spoke to the sail maker the sock is $85, but if you want to post it i have no idea howmuch is would cost

Why is that? I wasn't aware of a reason to go either way depending on cat or sloop rig.

I've sailed Contender Nationals and Worlds at RQYS - not a pleasant experience
I'm sure it would be a lot more fun place to sail on a cat.

The sock is a bit lower because it is mounted on the pole hence there is a bit more room for the jib. I thought it was a valid reason at the time.

It is different on a cat to a mono, not sure if that makes it better. The chop is still awful with wind against tide. I've swamped a 125 upwind with a "rogue" wave and launched the mozzie off a wave upwind, leeward centreboard was well clear of the water! Infact I prefer winter season with lighter winds and less chop in Waterloo Bay. Last weekend was actually really good, 12-15 knots and building, fully powered up, flat water (for a change). We were hammering upwind with height and speed, the best we've had it going...until the second race start when the boom snapped...doh!

Yeah saturday the weather in moreton bay was good, to bad i was busy, had planned on taking my mossie down to humpybong to race on sunday, but the wind increased from saturday and it was too windy for their liking and racing was cancelled.

Bought most of the gear now for the spinnaker, from what i understand greg goodall is finishing up the spinnaker and i should recieve that shortly. I decided to go with the ronstan orbit smart ratchets, not sure how some people had trouble with them locking in manual mode, as they have a pretty much fool proof system of locking in automatic mode with a lock on both sides of the ratchet to hold it in automatic mode.

Bought most of the blocks, went with series 20 for most of them and a series 30 high load block for the halyard block that goes back to back with tack line block. Only block left i need is the one for the end of the spinnaker pole, i know alot of people use a sheave block, however the spinnaker pole i got a local aluminium supplier to make is far too thick at 3mm, in fact im definately considering getting another pole made, as it seems to be way too heavy, though it could be put to good use as a heavy weather pole, as its seems extremely strong. What thickness aluminium do most people use for the pole, id rather stay away from carbon fibre, as i dont feel the cost is worth the minor reduction in weight, and greg goodall advised me not to go with anything expensive as its an item that undergoes lots of stress and if it doesnt break within a year it should be replaced anyway, as it will be structurally weaker, which being an undergraduate aeronautical and space engineer i completely agree with, even the high military grade aeronautical aluminiums and carbon fibre composites we work with degrade noticeably within not to long a time period when subjected to even normal operating stress loads.
So anyway, wondering what type of block people would recommend i use, id prefer an external block, even with a thinner pole that could take a sheave block, what kind of attachment should the block use, i know ronstan have several types that i saw the other day, one was a connected to a normal half loop of metal, and had a spring around the connection which had free motion in most directions, another was a more complicated and solid looking metal setup that had a pin and ring holding the two connections together, this only had freedom of movement around the axis of the pin (side to side). How strong does the connection between the pole and the block that the spinnakers tack hits need to be, and how much freedom of movement does it need, not much freedom of motion, in fact none at all im guessing as is the case with a sheave block.

Cheers.
Michael.

Michael,
To answer a couple of your questions,
The Spinnaker pole and rig setup, Greg Goodall made up for me.
Without measuring the wall thickness of the pole I would guess 1.6mm
I don't have a block at the end of the pole we use a nylon block with a hole in the centre for the rope (Standard Goodall Fitting) not rivets required and it doesn’t pull out or jam
The other end of the pole the block is held with the pine that holds the pole onto the beam. This block is a 30mm Harkin high load block simply because I had one. You could use a standard 20mm Ronstan block in the same way.
Regards
Peter

Hey Ncik,

Just realised you are on a mossie as well.
If that's the case makes 3 of us in SE Qld, could be the start of a fleet.

I checked the register off the Vic Assoc. it has your sail # with hulls as broken but I guess that's not the case.

Perhaps you could send me contact details as I sail from Cleveland and we could catch up some time.

I will have my boat with kite up and going by end Jan.

Cheers, Drew

Sorry Drew, the mozzie hulls are in the tip, starboard one was irreparable and didn't want to risk it with the other one.

I built F16 hulls to fit the mozzie platform and rig I had with square-top main. The idea was to upgrade to full F16 spec in the future, which hasn't happened yet.

We have a kite rigged and it works well, certainly made up a lot of ground downwind.

We're not racing this weekend because the boom is broken (and just when we had it going really well!), but generally race every Saturday out of RQ. I wasn't aware there were cats out of Cleveland, how is the launching?

I raced at humpybong last weekend and when i told them i was planning on putting a spinnaker on my wooden mossie they all gave me worried looks and recommended against it after what happened with ur mossie nick, but from what i understand from reading on here you broken your hull on the upwind leg, what do you think was the actual cause? Also i know theres a thread on timber mossies with spinnakers, but is there anything other than using a higher bridle to reduce the risk of damaging/breaking hulls while running a kite? Is there anyway to re-enforce the hulls? Are timber boats built for sloop rigged generally better able to handle loads for a kite compared to boats built solely for cat rigged? and if so why is that?

Also i believe my boat was built by Ben Cutmore, Ben if this is the case, whats your oppinion on the structural construction of my boat in regards to handling a kite, from what i understand putting a kite on it was always your intention as im sure ive read somewhere, and from what danny (the previous owner) told me, it was you who drilled the holes for the kite pole stays in the front of the bows (thanks for that as well, saved me having to do it).

Hey Michel,
I diddent actually build the boat just re painted.
From what I saw it was built to be sailed sloop and I think it is a heavy weight boat. so I think it would be solid.
I glassed in some alloy tube in the bows for later.
Hope its all going well.
Cheers Ben

There are very few Mosquitoes that were built to be solely used cat rigged. "Red Alert" is the only one I've come across. If you put a sloop bridle on one of these boats you will probably break the bow off. They have been built very light in the bows so they dont have much strength against being pulled in toward each other.

Having said that even Red Alert survived having a spinnaker added.

I believe the loads on the bows of a cat rigged boat with a spinnaker are not as large as those on a standard sloop.

If your boat has a high bridle then, if you have any doubts, it's best to leave it that way and suspend the pole and chute below it. Rather than change to a sloop bridle.

Any old timber boat needs to be watched for rippling on the inside face of the hulls near the front beam. That's the warning you get that the ply is losing it's strength and is about to collapse.

Tim,

Am interested in yours and others comments as I am about to put kite on my 'new' mossie #1635.
It was previously Wildtoy and NSWmozzie and is rigged for sloop but the discussion makes me give thought to the hull strengths. Any idea on who built it / it's origins?
Out of all the cats in Vic that carry kites how many are ply? are most the newer kevlar hulls etc?

Hey Ncik,

Shame about the mossie hulls.
Cleveland has quite a fleet of cats racing every Sunday - Nacra 5.0, 16sq, 5.8, Hobie 16, Windrush and soon my mossie.
There is a good ramp access and plenty of helping hands on race days.

Cheers,

Thats good to hear, as ive had her out in 20+ knotts of wind rigged as sloop rigged 2 up with a big total crew weight (190 kg) through chop with the rig setup tight to test what she could take and she held up well (we actually broke a few rivets on the centre fore/aft beam when tacking as we both had all out weight on it at the same time when we crossed over, turned out some of the rivets werent stainless marine rivets, fixed that in a hurry).

So from that im feeling more confident that she can handle a kite, at least in the winds im currently game enough to try flying it in, 10knts and under, for now anyway....

Also Drew, id love to come down to cleveland after you get you mossie and have a race down there with you, having only raced against nacra's taipains maris etc its hard to gauge how well im sailing my mossie without another mossie to match it against, plus its fun to race with boats of the same class. Hopefully we can kick some of those nacras, taipan, A Class sailors of their high horses and at the very least keep them looking nervously over their shoulders.

Jurassic Carp, Fat Bomber, The Tiger and Red Alert are all ply boats with spinnakers. There may be others I've forgotten.

There are no guarantees. Bows break off old ply boats sometimes (like Nick's) without needing a spinnaker to help them. If the boat seems solid and the ply does not flex (or worse, "squish") when you give it a push then it should be ok.

If you break it with a spinnaker then it probably would have broken anyway.

Yeah, hadn't used a kite on the mozzie when we broke the bow off. Upwind generally creates the greatest stress at the main beam (estimates of roughly a tonne of side force off the bridle). To get more stress at the beam from the kite generally requires high winds and high angles, which we've found to be slow with the kite.

Like Tim said, the inside had a small "ripple" just under the beam which I repaired about 6 months previously, but obviously not properly.

i hate to tell you that the tiger is not ply, its double kevla glass

Sorry about that. Not sure why I thought it was ply!

Also I forgot Peter Cobden's boat "First Try" which was a timber sloop with spinnaker (before he got his new boat).

Tim & others,

Thanks for feedback & info.
Will have a bit of a look see at hull construction just to put mind at ease.
I know Cameron rebuilt the decks on 'Blue Tongue' so he should be able to give some internal details from hulls.

It sounds like higher stress comes beating to windward anyway, my friend broke his cat on a tight shy reach two up going flat strap.

Food for thought may be to use a front bar similar to a Nacra 5.8 to change the load directions and limit the pull inwards. This would have to go through the class association but would allow timber hulls to continue, and the ability for people to still build their own while competing with full sail compliment.

May just go easy on the rig at first to 'test' before really going for it.

Cheers,

Shouldnt be too much of an issue adding a bridle foil to the front, only gives performance increase in that it allows a larger jib to be used (as well as giving an almost negligible lift force to the bows), so makes no difference for cat rigged, and as long as people continue to use standard jib, theres no performance increase there as well, and yes i agree, it could drastically improve the survivability of wooden boats, which in the long run is only going to serve to help the class, by keeping more boats on the water, and giving boat builders and 'small budget' sailors more reasons to choose the class.

Had a look at Nacra Bridle Foils, the one for the 5.0 was $500+, think it would be possible to just go down to an aluminium worker and get something simple made up, no need for a NACA foil to give extra lift at the bows like on the nacras (thought if i was desperate for that extra lift i could just make a "cover" for the aluminium tube shaped into a foil out of balsa or foam with maybe a layer of fibre glass over the top for strength, could even use the balsa wing sections from a cheap model/rc plane, the only real reason for the foil give the amount of lift it would produce would be to offset some of the weight of the bridle foil it self), just need something that will easily redistribute load, i know i can just use a high bridle for cat rigged, but id quite like an alternative solution to the sloop bridle for when i wish to take it out with a crew, as despite taking it out sloop rigged numerous times without detriment, i just realised that ive always done so using the cat forestays in addition to the jib and bridle, so to be honest im not too keen about the sloop bridle by it self, which would be a necessity once the spinnaker is setup, as spinnaker+forestays dont work for obvious reasons, which i guess is the whole issue behind this, setting up a single forestay for use with the spinnaker without putting too much sideways load on the hulls, hence the high bridle, however the high bridle doesnt allow the jib to be used.

Can anyway please specify whether the use of a bridle arrangement similar to a nacra bridle foil would breach any class rules? Not that us mossie sailors up here in queensland really do much in the way of class racing ... yet.

Hey there,

Well I learnt something, never realised the foil was to add lift !
Could a section of old eliptical mast do the trick in lieu of buying a Nacra item - not keen on having a Nacra piece on my cat.
I agree that in Qld not much of an issue with class rules at present but would be good to have compliant rig otherwise have to change to race in titles etc which could be a hassle.

What sort of section is required for this - could a thick wall round section from aluminium supplier suffice?

Have we got off topic here? Maybe have to start a new topic regarding sloop bridle.

Should catch up soon McccG - any races up at Bribie over xmas / Jan?

Cheers,

Lift certainly isnt the major point of the bridle foil, from my understanding the main purpose is to redistribute the load from the forestay, the fact that it was designed to be a foil (an object shaped to provide differing airflow over the top and bottom surface creating lift based on the Bernoulli principle) was just nacra trying to be fancy, selling point, being in my last year of aeronautical and space engineering at uni i can easy say that the lift it provides is virtually negligible, at high boat speeds, 15+ knots, id guess the lift it provides would probably only just account for the weight of the bridle and foil it self, which isnt much, now if the foil was lowered into the water, then that would be a whole other story... Hydrofoil.

I know weight is important, but honestly, accounting for that kind of weight is like around the world skippers who cut tooth brushes in half to save weight. In my opinion, inexperienced as i am, i believe the gains made by reducing such small amounts of weight and reduced drag from windage is something only people who have reached the pinnacle of their sailing and racing abilities should worry about, if you arent one of those people, then dont bother, unless its of no major effort, as your better off putting effort into becoming a better sailor.
Thats what im trying to focus on anyway. Ive always believed a good sailor on a bad boat will beat a bad sailor on a good boat anyday.

Bribie has finished up their sailing for the season and the next race isnt untill febuary, its not a terrible active club at the moment, with only 1-2 races per month and none over dec/jan, most of the members are retirees who sail trailor sailors more on a social basis than a racing one, however we do have a small number of members still passionate about racing and younger members like me self bringing new life into the club, our cat fleet (who make up the majority of those interested in racing as opposed to social sailing, after all our boats were built to race, not to social sail, and thats what we bought them for) is gradually growing, so the future is looking brighter.

I will however most likely be racing at either Humpybong or Lake Samsonvale, which are both mostly cat racing clubs, in fact Samsonvale is almost exclusively cats, both with a large number of very very good catamaran sailors, many of which compete at a national and/or international level. However they do mostly comprise of A-Class, F18s and Taipains, so its hard slog racing against (behind) these far more experienced sailors in faster boats, but its a good learning experience. Though both clubs do have a few 14 footers such as maricats, calypsos and hobbie 14s (who are very good sailors in their classes mind you) which offer good racing, despite their "slower" boats.

Let me know when u get your mossie, and ill let you know where im racing, will definately try to get down to Cleveland on the odd occasion over the summer, and if i can have my way, will be racing every sunday that a race is on at either humpybong or samsonvale. Humpybong tend to race every sunday, and samsonvale every 2nd sunday, however i think both clubs have about 2 weeks off over christmas. Humpybong however does easily get blown out, as the waves their tend to stand very high, and races are usually cancelled there on anything 20knts and over, so if Humpybong gets a high wind warning Samsonvale is were ill be assuming they are racing.
Only thing with Samsonvale, is they have a locked gate, as the club is located in a national park area, so you need to either be there when members are arriving (usually between 9-10 am) or give them a call and get someone to drive out to the gate to unlock it. However they are an extremely friendly club and its great racing there when the wind is up, flat and very fast.

Hey McG,

Will give you a hoy about sailing, I expect to have mossie up here this weekend. Would be great to get out for some good friendly competition.

Have done a little homework on a bridle re mossie rules - these items are taken from class rules specifications -

13.5 The bridle height shall be a minimum of 380 mm above the deck line. The measurement will be a vertical measurement to the centre of the bridle ring from a straight edge laid across the decks at the bridle attachment points.

13.6 Struts, stays or devices which limit the natural fore and aft movement of the forestay and forestay strop are prohibited (jib luff tension device excluded).

13.7 There shall be no other standing rigging.

From my reading a straight bridle fixed to hulls with the forestay attached would not be OK.

I believe a bar positioned across between the strops that sits just above hulls may be possible as long as does not restrict the natural movement of the forestay.

This could limit compression load on hulls while still fitting within class rules.

Does any one have a comment?

Also agree completely... 'a good sailor on a bad boat will beat a bad sailor on a good boat anyday'....

Cheers,

As far as the rules go this is pretty simple. There is no beam of the sort you describe in the original plans or the "building rules and restrictions", and it is not specifically de-restricted in rule 19, therfore it is not allowed.

The Mosquito is a restricted class rather than a development (or box-rule) class. That means the rules say what you can do, and anything else is out.

Anyway that's not to say anyone is going to be too bothered if you put a bar across the chainplates on your boat to take the bridle loads. But if you ever took the boat to a titles you may be asked to remove it for the event.

The question is whether there is any point to doing this. Mosquitoes are designed and built to be sailed the way they are.

If your hulls are showing signs of collapse on the inside face near the front beam (or in the deck) then you are heading for a major failure anyway - even if you do add a bridle-strut. In this case the hulls really belong at the local tip. You would be taking a risk using them, and it's no fun breaking stuff and hoping to be rescued. There are plenty more cheap ply Mosquito hulls around.

On the other hand if your hulls have been stored dry and the timber sounds hard when you tap it and looks even with no bumps, splits or ripples, then don't fiddle with it, just go sailing and enjoy it.

Tim,

Yeh, fair comment.

Was just concerned that the addition of spinnaker added more load than the hulls were designed for, especially the ply ones. The cats were not, as I understand, designed originally to carry a kite.

Just trying to avoid ending up in the drink and a major repair cost instead of being able to go sailing.

Cheers,

Yeah the issue isnt so much trying to keep a broken boat alive tim, and trying to develop a solution to boats with rippled hulls, but a method to stop the hulls getting to the point where they ripple in the first place, by either reducing the load they are subjected to or giving them greater support and consequent ability to handle that load. My boat is currently in great condition, and thats the way id like to keep it for a long time, and if setting up a cross member at the jib bridle will help keep my boat from degrading to the point that it gets ripples in the wood then its something that is well worth considering. Its not about devloping new technologies to make the boat faster as in a development class, or band-aid solutions to boats that are already too far gone, its about protecting our investments using preventative methods to reduce the risk of them needing to be fixed/replaced in the first place, and yes, whilst the boats were built and designed to "handle" the forces they encounter, even the best built of boats will gradually degrade over time due to the forces it encounters. Helping slow down that "aging process" if you will, will only serve to increase the life of boats and keep them on the water, in a strong and sound conidition for longer, which from my perspective, being someone who cannont afford to buy a new boat every second year like alot of high level, and sponsored racers, getting as much mileage out of my boat as possible is of quite a high priority, and im sure many other current mossie sailors and/or people considering buying a mosquito, be it for merely club level racing or national level, who dont have the deepest pockets, would or do feel the same way.

Another possible solution, is it possible to run a high bridle from a cat rigged boat on a sloop rigged boat in somewhat of a duel bridle configuration, have the high bridle take the tension of the mast and be the actual forestay, and lower jib bridle setup to only take the forces of the jib? or is the jib the main culprit in the sideways forces the hulls encounter?

Has anyone ever tried using a spinnaker with the normal cat rigged "dual forestays", how much do the forestays limit the kite? does the kite need to be sheeted in enough that the forestays get in the way? or do they get in the way of or catch the kite during jibes?

It's the mainsheet tension which is transfered straight through to the forestay that creates the tension in the bridle. The actual luff tension on the jib is negligible in comparison. The F16s use a system with a high bridle and a solid bar going down from that to the spinnaker pole (about 500-600mm). The jib is attached at the spinnaker pole.

A simpler solution than this, or a beam, is to simply put a longer bridle on the boat. From a performance point of view, the jib does not have to be at the lowest position possible. You could raise the bridle and shorten the forestay by 100mm, which would make an enormous difference to the side loads. You would also need to move the jib sheeting points back some to match (assuming they are in the right place now).



Yes, Red Alert had twin forestays. The spinnaker got tangled on the stays when trying to gybe. Peter changed it to a high (cat-rig) bridle and used a separate spectra bridle to hold the chute and pole in place. This worked fine.

I'm still not convinced there is any need to do anything about the bridle loads on a timber Mozzie. There are plenty of timber sloops racing at the top level, some with heavy crews that put a lot of load on the hulls and there really is no problem with hulls breaking.

What causes hulls to break is not so much the amount of time they've spent under load or the size of the loads, but the amount of water and rot that has got into the plywood. Also stringers or frames that have broken free are a problem.

Hey there,

Tim - thanks for comments - I will have a good check of my hulls and just go sailing I think. I am not a heavy weight and neither will be my crew - they are my sons who are 10 & 12.

Some earlier comments had me concerned.

McG - have sent you a message about sailing at Humpybong on Dec 21st if you are interested let me know.

Cheers,

Sounds good to me, ill be there.

Kool, lock it in eddie......

Not sure of start time but briefing at 10.15am.

Cheers,

Just a question, would it be difficult to make your own snuffer ring/chute mouth out of fibreglass? can the dimensions be obtained from anywhere? or would i be better off getting one made professionally? Also whats the diameter needed on the sock, i know from greg goodall who made my spinnaker, it needs to be around 1.9 metres long for my spinnaker, but what kind of radius/diameter, i know theres a trade off, smaller bag=less windage but tighter spinnaker: harder to raise/retreave; larger bag=more windage, but easier flowing spinnaker.

Thank you.
Michael.

Here's some dimensions for the chute

Thank you very much Tim, for all your help and advice, its greatly appreciated.

Whats the bottom picture of? side view?

hey,
just to let you guys know that i made a mould for the fibreglass shute, there $75

Yeah thanks matt, i have a bit of fibreglass lying around, and like a bit of diy, so ill have a go at it my self first, but if it doesnt turn out good enough, which it probably wont, ill definately get onto about you one, what do you think the postage for a chute to be sent up to queensland would come to? Also, just double checking, when you say you have a mould, there $75, are you saying ur selling the chutes made from your mould for $75, or your selling the actual mould for $75?

Cheers.
Michael.

If Matt's offering to make a chute for $75 I would go for it. It takes a lot of time to build a plug, then a mould, then the chute. Being such a tight curve I found it not that easy to separate the plug from the mould and then the chute from the mould.

The drawing at the bottom of the picture is the cross-section. It also needs a substantial lip built up near the edge to keep the sock on.

lol nar not the mould, just the chute, and ill find out the postage

matt
have you done my chute yet if so let me know as i would like to swag up the bridle over xmas

gordon

Hi,

Have just ordered my chute throat from Frecheville in Vic and it cost more than $75.00, that is good value.

McG - I may not be starting on Sun at Humpybong - just a few repairs to complete to boat which I may struggle to finish by Sun. Got a bit of wear along bottom of hulls which needs the glass tape relaid and a beam bolt which is loose and proving difficult to replace.

Was so looking forward to getting on the water but want to fix these things first. If I miss will catch up with you in new year.

Cheers,

gordon yes i have just need to drill out the holes unless you want to do it, ill finish it this weekend for ya, been abit slack,
matt,

Matt, did you happen to find out an approximate cost of postage to QLD, and also, about how long would it take to make one if i ordered one from you. Thank you.

Could anyone inform me of what the lengths of the wires people are using for a cat-style high bridle are?

Thank you.
Michael.

McGriffith,

It cost about $10 for postage and i have a shute ready to go.
Matt

Hey All,
Got the spi up for the first time & Love it here are some shots. How do I put them up? [img]http://www.flickr.com/photos/37533174@N04/3451845705/in/photostream/[/img]

[img]http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3548/3451845705_6bb18250b5.jpg[/img]

Looks great Ben. I'd forgotten you even had a spinnaker.