AHPC OPEN CAT REGATTA at Port Melb Yc

Who's coming,

So Far,
Me (Unko)
Mick Floyd
Tim S i think, need to confirm
Somers People (not Mossies)
2 x Hobie 16's

Yep, Im there!

Hey Trev,

Race 2..... nice

Hi all,

whats with the Mosquito with spinnaker results? Results don't show the Yardstick but at a guess it was wrong.

Gary

The divisions were quite strange... but essentially what I saw was

Matt Stone and Tim Sheppard goign blow for blow for the first three races - not much between them!

Just a toy was there day one and was a little further back!

Matt was the best of the mozzy's with Tim not completing the final two races due to an altercation (read sickening collision) with a Taipan - Tim's boat is fine... the Taipan is minus its port bow!

Only 4 mozzies all up this year.

The boats with kites were sailing on the F-16 Yardstick. (nb I had nothing to do with the organisation of the regatta!)

Gary,

The yardstick was right on Saturday, but was changed the next morning to the f16 yardstick due to complains of mossie with spin. I did approach the committee but wasn't sure of what to do or say about the matter.
I was very annoyed that i was on the same yardstick as Greg Goodall who sailed a sloop by himself which i believed was wrong, making him have an unfair advantage over the division.

Saw tims boat just before. Mozzi-2...... good! Taipan-1.5
(no offence meant to taipan sailors)

Hi all,

this is outrageous treatment of the Mosquito with spinnaker class, if the yardstick was adjusted the least the club should have done was explain there actions to those involved. If no explenation is forthcoming from PMYC this week, I would like to see the Victorian Mosquito Association make a formal aproch to PMYC, pulling no punches and telling them they will be reported to YV and boycotted by the Mosquito Class Association.

Should have known, Mossie Association already on to it and dialogue is taking place with PMYC, should all turn out OK. Don't need to get Thrice Mad.

I'm a little confused?!!!

Aren't Mosquitos with Kites - F16?

YV allocated a handicap for the Mosquito with Spinnaker in 2003 (Before the F16 was listed). All results from every season have been sent in to the YV handicapper. The handicap has been adjusted twice in that time, and is currently set at 80. This is a tentative handicap (like most other classes)

The history of Mosquitos with the F16 class is this. Back around 2004 the first Mosquitoes rigged with spinnakers took part in F16 events, partly to boost the F16 numbers while the F16 class was finding its feet in Australia, and partly for the fun of chasing (and sometimes catching) faster boats around the course. At that time most F16s in Australia were either Taipans or Mosquitoes. These days there are F16s designed to the box rule such as the Blade and Viper which have raised the performance of F16s to their expected level (ie. close to F18s and A-classes). Consequently the Mosquitoes are not active with the F16s anymore.

Cheers,

Actually they weren't Mitch. They were sailing on 71.
F16s are 71.5

Right you are Tim! My Mistake - The Viper and Mozzy were both off 71... I think that was the F16 yardstick in 2008!?

The F18's were racing off 70.. they are now 69... I think PMYC might have an outdated version of TopYacht!

From teh other numbers in use I think they are using the 2006 handicaps.

I often hear people complain that YV never update the handicaps, but they do make changes every year which are mostly ignored by many of the clubs.

It would help if YV could make available an update file for TopYacht. At least the clubs that use TY could then be up to date.

I see, so the mosquito with spinnaker can no longer sail with the F16's?

Hi Farmer,

again you seem to be jumping to the wrong conclusion. Seeing you are having trouble understanding what we are trying to explain, perhaps if you let us know what you sail and where we could relate it to some classes you know about. You could even let us know who you are if you like, as that may help as well. Happy to explain by PM if you don't want to do it here.

Hi Farmer,

Mosquito with Spin is a class in its own right that is a "Grandfathered" boat in F16. As such it is welcome to participate in F16 events even though it is not built to the box rule. I refer you to my previous post regarding history as to why this is so.

Skippers may choose to enter F16 events or not, as is their want, but when doing so they would sail as an F16 against all comers that meet the rules though given some of the fantastic F16 designs that now grace our waters I think it would be a tall order.

The reason for a different YV handicap for Mosquito with Spin and a modern F16 design would IMHO be rather obvious to anyone who had rigged his Mozzie next to a Viper or Blade

I love my Mozzie... but I love "fair" racing just a little bit more.

Cheers

Just had a look at the results, doesn't look like they have been fixed yet.
http://www.yachting.org.au/site/yachting/results/pmyc/2009/club/or/series.htm

Guess I was right about the Mozzy getting confused with an F16
http://www.catsailor.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=157906#Post157906

Any details on the smash Tim?

Darryn

Thanks my questions have been answered now.

The Farmer
Flying 15
Mosquito
Taipan
125

my understanding was this was a handicap event not a F16 event with all other class sailing to their handicap etc...

so the mossies should not have been grouped with the F16 just because some sailed with kites

Hi all,

Results still not fixed but here's hoping. A apology has been made by PMYC for the mistake.

Hi all,

I would like to attempt to dispel the myths around the Mosquito with Spinnaker/F16 connection as I guess I have been mostly the reason why there is any connection.

From the start Mosquito's with spinnaker where included in F16 class to bolster numbers and where never expected to perform as an outright F16. As a result they have allways been recognised as a sub class at F16 events. In fact apart from the first year when there where no out right F16's, Mosquito's have always raced for there own class trophy in the Victorian F16 titles.

Yachting Victoria has always recognised the Mosquito with spinnaker as it's own class, the Mossie with spinnaker already had it's own Yardstick for some 2 years, before I approached Yachting Victoria to establish a Yardstick for the F16 and I can tell you now the performance of Mosquito's with spinnakers, was never taken in to account in establishing the yardstick for the F16.

What people don't seem to come to grips with is that F16 is a Box Rule class, like A class, as such it is open to any existing class that fits with in the rules or in the case of the Mosquito is "Grandfathered" (or invited to join the class).

Consider this, A class is a new class starting up and they invite Mosquito's or Taipans to race in A class, (I beleive they fit the A class box rules). Just like the Mossies with Spinnaker in F16, the best Mossie sailors could probably beat some of them also . But it would not make your Mossie or Taipan an A class, just because you raced with them. Any more than it makes a Mosquito with Spinnaker a F16, as the Mosquito with spinnaker was recognised by Yachting Victoria (given a yardstick) before the F16 was recognised and this continues to be the case, as each year the YV yardsticks have been adjusted and still recognise Mosquito with spinnaker as it's own class.

so that means the mosquitos that have the "f16" emblem sticker on their boat should take it off as we are not apart of their class, and stop the confusion

Matt

That would be a very good start. This sort of what I'm getting at. From the outside, looking in, the Mosquito is an F16, its on sails, sailboxes, etc... belonging to Mosquito with spinnakers. So if you were to rock up to a regatta and sail I could see why you would be given the yardstick of 71 or whatever it is. Now, you've been to a regatta had to sail against Greg Goodall on a Viper and its not fair.

Now before I get flamed, I know its not a fair fight, far from it, but the Mosquito as a class and left itself open to this confusion.

THE FARMER
Flying 15
Mosquito
Taipan
125

There's no confusion, just a few people clutching at straws, trying to find a way to stop Mosquitoes getting results at regattas.

It's not rocket science to see the obvious differences between a Mosquito (1967 design) and an F16 (now design), and it's totally unconvincing for anyone to pretend that they are "confusing" the two.

There's a definite attitude among "faster" classes that Mosquitoes should not win regattas. The whole point of a handicap system is that having a faster boat does not mean you get to automatically win. If a well setup Mosquito races against a well set up A-class/F18/F16/Taipan and the sailors are all experienced sailors then anyone can win on the day. I don't know why that is such a hard concept for some people to get.

We have been racing against Blades and one Viper (Greg) for a few seasons now. It is "fair" if the results are calculated according to the YV handicap system. It's not a lot to ask. Even PMYC have managed to get it more-or-less right for their last two Droughtbuster regattas.

Sure the handicap system isn't perfect. In fact it's lousy and gives very variable results depending on the course type and wind strength, but it's the only system we have (since no-one seems interested in going SCHRS).

There's a mosquito that used to sit in the pound at Somers with F16 written on it (Twice Bitten). I don't think it's there any more. Any others?

Gordon has an old Irwin sail that used to be mine that has an F16 sticker on it.

Even with a sticker, it still doesn't look like an F16.

The sailer of the "faster" boat would have to admit they didn't sail very well. Much easier to blame the yardstick or classify a Mozzy as a cheater boat.

SCHRS treats square tops and pin head mainsails as the same, might not do to well under that system.

Darryn

Well the Taipans seem to think their square top mainsail has had no effect on performance - hence no handicap change. Could this mean the SCHRS idea is right, and all these "high performance" classes are going square top for no reason other than asthetics?
Hardly seems likely does it?

SCHRS also penalises larger centreboards which is not good for Mosquitoes since we use centreboards with nearly half the area allowed under the class rules.

I think the problem with any measurement rating is that older existing classes obviously can't be optimised to the rating whereas newer (esp. box-rule) classes can be optimised. Also any rating rule is still just another subjective set of ideas thought up by someone - not necessarily any better than VYC, and no less subject to endless arguments.

I guess SCHRS is just an alternative. Not necessarily a solution.
The real solution is for YA and state YAs to simply ban all the small classes from regattas so we end up with a few one design fleets and then we don't need a handicap system !!

Tim
even I do not have the F16 Logo on my sail anymore

Gordon

Some observations:

Seems to me the people doing the most talking about F16's and Mozzies are ourselves so how about some quiet.

This was an unfortunate incident. We have an apology which, if we consider ourselves to be good sports, must be accepted as genuine. The results will or will not be changed but will disappear from the web site in a short while, as they all do.

The time to address this was in the protest room on the day by protesting the committee.

Matt seemed the most hard done by here, but I’m sure he now knows what to do if something like this happens again.

Let’s go sail our boats and grow our class, take this one as a lesson learnt, and if it happens again, protest the committee. I am sure most race officers would rather be chilling with a beer than having to hear a protest about our yardstick and I suspect they would get it right going foward.

Not criticizing anyone else’s opinions here... just putting a few of my own

Cheers

Twice Bitten still sailed out of Somers. Have not noticed the F16 sticker though but have not been looking.

Sorry guys, I`m partly (if not mostly) to blame here..
When I first came across the F16 concept it was an idea of a class that allowed similar 16ft boats with spinnakers to compete on a first-in wins principle, all off a non-handicap basis. I spoke to Wouter who was then the class chairman about the Mozzie, he had indicated then (very early days) that the goal of F16 was to be as inclusive as possible, allowing us, H16 with spinnakers and even Dart 18 with spinnakers to compete as non-fully compliant designs. This was at the start-up phase of the class.
My motive to have us included in F16 was to try and promote cross-class competition in South Africa, as the Hobie class was experimenting with spinnakers, there were a few Dart 18`s with spinnakers and a few Mozzies with kites as well. At the time none had adopted the spinnaker as class equipment, so sailing with kite made you a bit of an outcast in your own class. Hence the desire to promote a new open-class spinnaker fleet with no handicap, which I believed might be successful.
Since then the Mozzie class in S. Africa has adopted the kite as class equipment, and sail off an unofficial SCHRS of 1.13 (not verified by a SCHRS official), which I calculated with the help of Robin Smith at ISAF. As a result of this we no longer really "need" to be a part of the F16 class, especially since the H16 and Dart 18 sailors who had kites have since given them up as they are not really suitable boats for spi sailing, and we are no longer allowed to sail at Hobie class organised events, se we seldom get to compete with them anyway.

I`d just like to dispel a few myths :

"SCHRS treats square tops and pin head mainsails as the same, might not do to well under that system."
This is not strictly accurate, there are a number of measurements taken on the mainsail, measured according to the ISAF sail measuring method, that are taken into consideration. The bare minimum that are required are luff length and sail area, but the option of entering all the details will give a more accurate rating. I also believe that they have updated the formulas recently to deal with this issue.

"SCHRS also penalises larger centreboards which is not good for Mosquitoes since we use centreboards with nearly half the area allowed under the class rules."
Also incorrect, the formula penalises long high-aspect ratio daggerboards, whereas the Mozzies are short by comparison, so the SCHRS formula takes aspect ratio, (board area & board depth) into account.

If the Mozzie class in Australia has also adopted the spinnaker as class equipment and sail off their own rating, it might be beneficial to disconnect the ties to F16 (if indeed there are any). Ultimately any class that fits the F16 boxrule can be classified as an F16 - The Mozzie complies in all respects to the boxrule except for minimum weight, which is why we were given grandfathered status, as it was offset sufficiently by us being under-specced in other areas such as max. beam and mast length. Whereas we comply with the boxrule, we are not optimised to it, and as a result cannot possibly be considered to be as fast as fully optimised boats (except in 28knots plus, where a well-sailed Mozzie is faster than an upside-down F16/F18 ;))

Hope this clears a few things up,
Steve

Hi Simon,

can't see anything wrong with openly discussing F16's and Mosquito's, the history of which many people do not know as they where not involved with either class, back when the spinnakers started. Which some people seem to misunderstand in recent times, after all Mosquito's with spinnakers first competed in the F16 State Challenge in 2004, (I am just looking at the certificate on my wall to check when it first took place). Funny the F16/Mosquito with spinnaker link hasn't been a problem for 6 years, just this season.

I am with Tim on this one, I think somebody is using it as a convenient excuse and I think that the VMCA should ask the PMYC to correct the result. From my understanding (I wasn't there), the results/yardsticks where not published during the regatta giving no time for those that where competing to protest.

Hi Gary,

"can't see anything wrong with openly discussing F16's and Mosquito's,"

Didn't say there was anything wrong with it. It just seemed to me to be getting a bit repetitive to no real end. But hey.. it is an open forum

I was not there but Matt spoke with me either the Mon or Tues night after. He said he had raised the question at the time the handicaps were changed but having not really got an answer he didn't follow it up at the time. As I said to him then, and in my previous post, the time to deal with it was probably then... only my opinion.

Cheers

I am sorry but I totaly disagree, there are no Mosquito's with spinnaker sailing around with anything but the Mosquito emblem in the regulation position for class insinia on the sail.

You can put what ever you like on the rest of the sail, I have known boats that have had Play Boy Bunnie signs, Pink Pigs and Kangaroos to name just a few, on their sails, but there was no confusion as to what class they where, as they also had their class logo in the correct position and they wrote their class on the entry form, as do Mosquito's with spinnakers.

As for trailers, mine has a F16 logo on it and I am not about to take it off, I am proud of helping the class get started and happy to promote F16. Mind you there are other stickers on my trailer, which I am also happy to have there. Gee that trailer started life as an A class trailer it too has history and I know of plenty of other trailers with class stickers from classes that are not now carried on them, I can not believe that people would use that as a reason for confusion .

I say again, for 6 years it has not been a problem.

Hi Steve,

great to hear from you , no need to apologise. Nothing to apologise for , those early spinnaker days where heady days , nobody ever believed a Mossie could go that fast . If we hadn't gone down that path who knows where the class would be. Of course if all Mossies had spinnakers, as they do in South Africa there would be no problem . Just kidding .

Hope you are still hard at it over there and numbers are going well.

No worries Gary

Your under the impression, I think, I'm trying cause trouble. Thats not the case, if it seems that way I apologize. I'm merely getting it all out in the open. As you've stated theres nothing wrong with openly discussing the issues.

However, your first paragraph in reply, is, while technically correct, a bit of a play on words, the logos are on sails, I've seen them, but I will grant you, they are not in the class insigna regulation position.

The formula assists calculation of the area of the mainsail rather then treat them as a basic triangle. So I am going to stick to my original statement that
"SCHRS treats square tops and pin head mainsails as the same, might not do to well under that system."
there is still no factor that modifies the rating for the distribution of the sail area.

Interesting point though and its good to see you back on the forum Steve,

Darryn
1782

Hi Gary, Darryn,
Been a while, yes.
I`ve been absent from the forums as long as I`ve been away from my boat - I think the global recession started at my house !
So haven`t been sailing in a long time.
Mozzie nationals happened last weekend here, not sure of the numbers as I wasn`t there. The class had a slow-down in activity but seems on the up again, hopefully we`ll see a better year and i`ll get back on the boat.

I`m intrigued that in Aus the class hasn`t fully adopted the spinnaker - can`t the others SEE ??

Cheers,
Steve

I haven't put a spinnaker on my boat either, I'm not opposed to the idea but I find the Mozzy interesting enough to sail downwind without one provided there are waves and enough wind to surf them, fortunately there usually is enough of both here. No one else has them locally either and we still race triangles. The cost of fitting one to an older plywood boat could well exceed the value of the boat so I can understand why our fleet in South Aus, with its predominantly ply fleet, has been slower to adopt then Vic which has many more "new" boats. I think the class has been clever by introducing the spinnaker in parallel to our normal sailing activities without forcing members to make a choice, just means those with spinnakers get another big regatta (Vic spinnaker states) which looks enticing to those of us without them and therefore builds numbers of attendees each year.

Wouldn't even consider sailing downwind 100 metres without putting the kite up on my Flying Fifteen no matter how much wind.

Did the South African Mozzy fleet go for the square top mainsail?

Darryn

Hi Darryn,
You are fortunate that the class is big enough to do that - we are only 20 odd boats, so a decision had to be made to either adopt the spinnaker, or drop it altogether. There were 5 of us with kites that basically lapped the rest of the fleet at club races (didn`t use them at nationals the first year, obviously).
We were actually very surprised when put to the vote, 100% of the fleet voted for the spinnaker, even though only 20% of us had one.
I think the reasoning for it was that we are competing with other classes for attention with respect to getting new people into our fleet, and making the Mozzie a more attractive option than a H16 or Dart 18 (predominant fleets here), as well as a far more cost-effective option than a Hobie Tiger, but still having the spinnaker for those that want a spi boat.
Of course, "more attractive" can have it`s down-side too, as it`s probably a bit overwhelming for any new sailors or non-sailors to feel confident enough to sail the boat. But then you can`t have it both ways (Well it seems you can, in Australia )

We did look into the option of squaretop sails, but without lengthening the mast it really would give little benefit. I don`t believe the current mast section would take much more length, so a different section would be necessary, and costly. You guys are quite fortunate, if you wanted to experiment with this you could pick up a used Taipan mast and start with that, but then the hull bouyancy could be a problem.
It`s a perfect little boat, lets keep it that way. (With spinnaker )
Steve

I think its great with spin, but at my club we only do triangles so i cant use it. I travel around so that i can use it at different regattas and i love it,
We have the
"Nationals" without spin
"State Titles" without spin
"Spin States" With spin
Any other regatta .....SPIN eg, cat champs and sauna sail
but at club no spin as we have 6 mossies without spin consistently sailing who keeps you on your toes anyway
So in the end i do two types of downwind and get alot better and quicker in the handling doing both

Matt