Sails. What would you buy?

Currently making choices for my new toy and would be interested in some guidance from everyone on where to shop. My default due to the sails he has made me in the past would be Glenn but I wonder what everyone's thoughts are.

Last time I spoke to Glenn (about a month ago) he suggested he would be bringing a new main design to the coaching weekend so I'd like to hear feedback on that after the weekend. Also has Brewin ever made Mossie sails?

note that Clifton has made ALOT of South Australian sails but obviously you will find out more tommorrow.

Don't know of Brewin having made any Mossie sails. He has made some very nice Bighead Taipan/F16 sails though.

I think the major thing when looking for a Mossie sail is to look to somebody who has either already made competitive sails for the class or somebody with experience in similar style of sails, that is flexible mast cat sails. Which are fairly rare these days, only other class that pops to mind with any real quantity of sails would be Paper Tiger sail makers.

OK I will ask the dumb question, how do you vote on the poll?

I'm sure you'll work it out. I went down at lunch time and had a look at everyones boats and a chat with Glenn. He didn't get the prototype sail made having been very busy and commuting a lot. Hasn't even made his own sails for this summer yet. Loft will stay open while he's with ETNZ with Glenn designing but doing less hands on work. Apparently there is some design work in the am cup role but at this point his job description seems to be wing trim.

guess my choice would be someone I can talk to about my personal thoughts as to what I want a sail to do...not what it does for anyone else but what I want.
Hence I shop close to home.....my son, and his are getting better and better

David
Salpicon de Resplandor, 1744

I couldn't agree more but I don't have a family member to buy sails off. Ashby and Irwin make their sails within 5km of each other so are equally convienient. My next question to the forum is how much input you had into your sails. Was it a case of this is what I'm currently building it costs this much or was their more dialogue about what you were after? From the poles it is pretty clear most people would use the same sail maker again if they needed another sail. This is either through satisfaction (hopefully) or blind loyalty.

Who else is making kites?

I always have input, the three corners have to be the done the way I like them, so I can change sails quickly using the same hardware, right thickness bolt rope (including the stitching ). I like to see the sail when the panels are cut out ( I use cross cut sails ) before they are glued/sewn and I want to be there when the luff curve is cut to ensure my changes have been incorporated. When I pick it up I check the plastic batten holders along the luff are not to close to the bolt rope and stainless screws were used to screw them together. I also check the three corners against a copy of the plan I gave the sailmaker.

Alot of sailmakers prefer customers who ring up, order and hand over there visa number. Finding one who is motivated to help you make your boat go faster is the key I think.

We have two new Irwin sails on local boats and I have noticed a significant improvement in their performance, I would definitely consider an Irwin Mozzie sail if I needed a new one.

Darryn
Bullet
1782

I tend to agree with Darryn here. My preference is to get a sail locally from Peter. But I know damn well that if I do that, then I am probably up for another one in order to fine tune the first, which I guess is no real big deal. Once done, however, then at least I would know that future sails should be easy to replicate.

There is a distinct advantage of buying a sail from a proven and popular sailmaker with a turnover of class sails. Even if it is not truly customised, at least you know that it is going to be around the ball-park.

Without publicly naming names, I bought a sail from a Victorian sailmaker a few years ago. Unfortunately, from when I got it, I could not get the top third of the tell-tails to flow going upwind. They were all over the place. The sailmaker didn't want to know about it. I have since asked Peter to straighten the luff curve and finally it is doing almost what it should.

You are lucky to live so close to all facilities!

Cheers

This is not mozzy specific - I have/am going through the process of getting my stingray sail to work for me (it is more about me than the sail)

Greg Goodall radically re-designed the sail which at the time did not meet class rules (but now does ) When doing so he spent a lot of time on the phone with me talking through the design... at that stage most of it meant little to me!

I sailed happily with it for a year - Then as I learned more (and other people started looking into/buying the new style) we have changed a few things - Probably by the time I get my next new mainsail it will be perfect (or at least I will think it is)

I guess what I am saying is that the sail makers making sails that work now will give you a good sail! I didn't have that luxury + I had asked for big changes anyway! Like the mozzy the stingray rig is a little unique as well! It has been/will be a good experience and I have thoroughly enjoyed learning about sails and rigs etc... but maybe It would have been easier to have a sail that worked out of the bag!

Mitch

I at alegayter sails am making spinnakers for the mossies. i have done the whole SA fleet here all be it only 3, but have tried different things with all 3 and have found one that is working well.

As far as mains go, I have done alot of development over the past 5 years and i now have a sail that is quite competetive. Dad also has had 2 mains from me and both he has had alot of input into the final design/cut. I am happy to work with the customer and incorperate the ideas that the customer has and come to a design that we are both happy with.

i think that buying a sail from a sailmaker who actually sails the class no matter what class is a great advantage.

I decided to buy an Irwin after watching them going past at the nats. Finally arrived today, managed to get it on the mast after making a few changes (grind the slug down to size and downhaul travel length). Test sailing it tomorrow, get it measured on Saturday morning and use it in the SA states Saturday afternoon. Forecast is around 20knots so its going to be great Mozzy conditions.

Darryn
Bullet
1782

Damn! I wanted a red one

you could always ask Irwin to use red cloth (think hobie wildcat).

Awesome looking sail, do like the red trim.

My new Irwin main is on its way to Qld as we speak.

Hoping it arrives today and I can use it tomorrow.

I am experiencing some sail envy at present......

It does look good. Impressed with the shape of the sail, Ive taken some pics and measured the max draft which is in the right spot, looks like it will perform.

Make sure you check the packaging before you sign for it and unwrap it, Toll Ipec were not kind to my sail and managed to punch some small holes (which I fixed)in it even though it was very well protected by corrugated cardboard. First time its happened to me after freighting many sails all over the place.

Darryn

Have just checked with Toll and to quote 'the trailer is delayed into Brisbane....' so no new sail for Sat.

Thanks for the tip Darryn, will check very thoroughly when it arrives.

Glad you didn't buy it before the Nats . Hey this is not fair you guy's are reducing my advantages.

But seriously, good move Darryn. I would be interested to hear if you think you can point higher and keep the speed. That's what I found when I first started using them, I could point higher than before with good speed .

Also if your first race is 20kts, three words of advice, downhaul, downhaul, downhaul . Oh and keep the foot pretty flat along the boom, as it effects the depth up the sail alot more than some sails.

Enjoy

I sailed it today, couldn't believe how high it would point, its kind of ridiculous, in the end I was writing down the tactik numbers on the sidedeck instead of doing the maths in my head, just to check myself. I am getting the same sort of numbers they get on the V5 Americas cup boats. Had up to 15 knots, glad I had already increased my downhaul travel as I would have ran out today. Messed around with outhaul and particularly rotation, found it made a huge difference compared to my other sails. Looking forward to testing my new settings against the other Mozzys tomorrow. Forecast is up to 23knots now, hope the club holds its nerve and doesn't cancel.

Darryn
Bullet
1782

Hi all, what a great weekend at the states, until the boom gave way. :-( on the sail front for my two cents, i would like to buy local for the after sale service but my 9 year old Goodall can still go in 20+ knots :-) what fun!!!

Hi Darryn. How was the sail on the weekend? I`am waiting for a report on your new sail Peter N

Oh, didn't realize anyone was waiting

Had a lot more power then normal but I could flatten it out when I needed to. Not as flat as my uk sail but I found If I reduced rotation, tightened the foot and dropped the traveller 10cm I could drive upwind in 25knots steady as a rock with the boat hardly heeling any extra in the gusts, just accelerating. Pointed higher then the boats around me, a couple of degrees, and going a bit faster then them when they tried to point as high. In moderate conditions I can power it up AND point, different to both my other sails were its one or the other, makes getting through the chop a much more pleasant experience, boat doesn't seem to hobby horse as much either.

On a reach, tight or all the way out to boom at the end of the track, there is a narrow groove where it just takes off, I have a couple of telltales I have put on the sail, if I drop a small amount of downhaul and keep the telltales flowing then I need to be hanging onto something or I will get chucked off the back when it accelerates.

Running I have not got it sorted yet, vang doesn't work like my other sails, seems to choke it. I spent most of my time playing safe and just sailing whatever angle I needed to catch waves but I missed some I should have got and that bugs me. Definitely felt I should have been able to maintain my speed and sail a bit lower, certainly possible after watching you guys at the Nats. Its a good problem to have because thats a good excuse for a day after day of midweek sailing until I get it right, gee life sucks

So I am very happy with the sail, wish I hadn't been distracted with my other sails for all those years, looking forward to unlocking the rest of the performance from the sail. Never expected I could buy a stock sail with the various battens recommended by Lindsay and it would go this well from day one.

See you at the Vic states.

Darryn
Bullet
1782

did u get foam or rod battens?

Hi Matt, I went for the foam battens, I just asked Gary, Tim and Neil at the Nats what they were using and asked Lindsay Irwin to give me the same. There is a combination of hard and soft, some tapered, some not. I tested them by putting some marks on the sail at max draft then took lots of pictures of the sail with varying amounts of downhaul, outhaul and mainsheet pressure from underneath the sail, laying on the tramp with the boat strapped to the trailer on a windy day. Then download the pics onto the computer and measure were the max draft really is and guess what? It was in the right spot already, no stuffing around grinding battens.

Darryn
Bullet
1782

Hi Darryn,

Great to see you with an Irwin sail at last.

Did you go for soft or stiff battens and did Lindsay ask whether you were light weight, medium weight or heavy weight ?

I got the stiff battens which had a longer straight length on the exit.

Is the bolt rope the new plastic extruded section and if so how does it feel when you are hoisting it ?

Regards,


Peter

The bolt rope is the plastic extruded section, it goes straight up the mast very easily, much better then a rope type bolt rope.

I have a mix of soft and stiff battens with some tapered, I didn't mess with what Lindsay recommended as I thought it would be the best starting point. I am sure fibrefoam or Lindsay would be happy to sell you more battens Wouldn't be to hard to work out which ones to replace.

He didn't ask my weight, I would be in the heavy weight category at 90kg. He suggested if I felt underpowered I could go for a softer top most batten but I just want to use the sail for a while before I make changes. I doubt that I will as I like the shape now.

Darryn
Bullet
1782

Hey,

Darryn - thanks for all the info, just helped me look for where to tune the new sail in, much appreciated.

Now just hanging out until Sunday to get it on the boat, unlike others I have to go to work midweek........

Cheers,

Hey couldn't let this one go through to the keeper.

Look forward to having you visit, if you need any local info just ask, have you got accom etc sorted?

Word of warning Shannon is faster than Bob.

damn its getting tough,
i got the fibreglass rod battens as for the fact if i happen to fall over (quite regularly) i might land on the sail and snap battens. im just about to order a new sail also.
On other notice mr pearce on Mossie 1812 overture has bought a new sail which i think its a UK sail from sydney i think and it seems powerful really powerful, material feels really soft not like what we have which is like a cracking piece of paper.

Matt

I noticed in his photo and now his comments that Darryn has a vang. In 20 years of racing cats I've never had a boat with a vang. Do all the Mossies use them or is it just guys who ahve come from monohull or Paper Tiger backgrounds?

I am sorted for accomodation thanks, found a cabin at Eagle Point caravan park.

I remember Shannon was fast at St Leonards and then there is the Paynesville locals plus some new boats coming too. Essentially another Nationals but condensed into 3 days which makes it worth the drive.

Darryn
Bullet
1782

I have a vang, it sits in the sail box on the trailer......

Personal preference generally, some do - some don't.

Vangs...ALL sloops at nationals went with out (to get twist), maybe 50/50 cat sailors go with (some swear by, some swear at). It's nothing like what you would see on a laser etc, just a way of holding the boom down on a dead run much like a foot does.
No paynesville sailors use..:)

Vangs, always and interesting topic. It seems that in some states a lot use them and in other states no-one.

We have 2 Mk2s in our house, one with and one without, where I started sailing mossies (NT) no-one used them, SA seem to and Vic seems not to.

Personal choice but it does make it harder for your crew to move from side to side.

David
Salpicin de Resplandor, 1744

I find the Vang useful as a sail shaping control, just another option.
1, In light wind upwind I can centre the traveler and with a bit of vang force the mast rotated with the leech open, Vang sheeting basically.
2, Downwind with my crosscut sails I can set the mast rotation to 90 degrees and hold it there with a fair bit of Vang tension. Cannot gybe with it on, I use a weak bit of rope (4mm) to attach the pulleys to the wire strop which breaks if I try and gybe in high wind with vang on.

I notice boats that use centre sheeting wouldn't need one as the rope coming down from the centre of the boom probably does a similar job.

Doesn't work downwind with my radial cut sail, its already deep enough at the luff of the sail so I dont need to force depth into it by over-rotating the mast and leech is quite "tight" on the Irwin so vang stops it breathing downwind.

I think I will keep having a vang on my boat, I am fitting a new front beam at present, I dislike unnecessary holes in the beam but I think its worth the 4 extra.

Darryn
Bullet
1782