Gybe mark rules

I would like to start some rules discussions going on this forum, as it seems to me from the discussions at State and National titles that we're not all clear on some areas. As I've looked into it I've been quite surprised at just how complicated the right-of-way rules can be.

So to start the ball rolling, the gybe mark on a triangular course seems a simple enough situation. Who gives way to who when rounding the gybe mark?

One area of difficulty seems to occur when there is a boat that has sailed high (A) that is then running down to the mark (and may even gybe before reaching the mark) and a boat that has gone low and is reaching up to the mark (B).

B will be travelling much faster than A, so there is a good chance that B could get an inside overlap too late (after A has already entered the 3-boat-length zone). That would mean B will either have to duck around the back of A or go the wrong side of the mark.

On the other hand if A is sailing well off the wind (or gybed) the line across the back of her rudders could well be overlapping B, so B could have an overlap from a long way off.

If A has already gybed on to Port by the time they converge, can B call "Starboard"?

From reading rule 18 it looks to me that port/starboard is completely irrelevant at this mark, and only the question of the inside overlap and when it was established matters.

I interpret it that way also, with A running so deep a line drawn across the back of A could stretch 250m back meaning A has to give mark room to all boats in the zone including B.

Thats all in the perfect world of the rule book of course.

The contradictory part of the rules is often A has boats to windward and a legal inside overlap established by B seconds before arriving at the mark doesn't allow A time or opportunity to give B room. One of the major changes I have noted in reading the 2009-2012 rules and interpretations is the concept of allowing the boat which has to give room, time and opportunity to give that room when the Right of Way boat first establishes it.

This thread is a very good idea, only a month ago, while sailing in a different class, someone was screaming mast a beam at me on the race course, that rule disappeared in the 80's

Darryn
Bullet
1782

Good point. There was a protest at our last state titles because the boat on the inside wasn't given mark-room. The protest was not upheld because there was another boat outside both of them who was deemed by the protest committee to be the one that caused the problem. Whether that boat had the opportunity or not to give mark-room for both boats inside would have been the thing to determine- and a difficult thing to prove either way I would say.

That also raises the definition of overlap which says two boats that would not normally be overlapped, become overlapped when a boat between them overlaps both. So when there are three boats strung out but overlapping in a line, the first and last boat count as overlapped. Strangely this doesn't seem to extend to 4 or more boats in a line (this is what I mean by it getting complicated!).


"Mast abeam" - He he

From Peter:

Does the Blue boat get buoy-room?

i say yes

That right matt
The answer is The boats were overlapped when the first boat reached the zone. Rule 18.2(b) requires Red (the outside boat with right-of-way) to give Blue (the inside boat) mark-room.
Peter N

Here Is anther one
Who has room at the mark? and why?

the green has all rights around the buoy, and blue has to give room for red as red has overlap inside the 3 boat length
correct me if im wrong
Matt

ps, on paper is looks easy but when your in the situation on the water, its seems different at times

Red has to give Green room as Red was clear astern entering the zone. As there is an overlap with both boats inside her, Blue must give room for both the others..... or I could be wrong. I agree with Matt though.. it's a lot harder on the water

I'm more concerned with post #3 where the protest from a boat in the right was dismissed because a third boat was the one causing the problems. As i see it the boat on the inside was denied their rights because of a third party. They should have won their protest and it would have been up to the middle boat to protest the outside boat for not giving both inside boats room.

Great exercise Tim, but diagrams can be a leeward mark that requires a simple hardening of sheets to head off on starboard (#1)port(#2)tack. Post in a mark with boats approaching on opposite tacks and requiring a gybe to round it as the original posting describes. Cat among the mossies then!

I guess the protest committee's opinion was that the inner boat with buoy-room had protested the wrong boat. That is, the one in the middle was not found to be at fault.

Maybe the protest committee should have put in a protest against the 3rd boat themselves under rule 60.3(a)(2). It would have been too late for the middle boat to put in a protest against the 3rd.

Well I was hoping to deal with the gybe (wing) mark first, then maybe move on to the leeward mark after we had done that to death!

Situations like this can get more complicated with cats because the boats can be travelling at very different speeds. In this case the red boat will probably be travelling a lot slower than the others and if the blue boat was any lower she could be travelling faster than green.

Sometimes this could cause a boat like blue to get to the mark ahead of red then just forget all about giving red mark-room. Then if blue does a bad rounding and parks at the mark red could be forced to go outside blue. Blue should take a penalty in that case.

You on the ball Tim.The thing to remember is that the rules are there to keep boat apart, and the zone was extended form two boats to three so to give you more time to esstadlish how has room. In saying this we all should remember rule 14

Rule 14 Avoiding Contact
A Boat Shall avoid another Boat if reasonably possible. However a Right of Way boat or one entitled to room or Mark room
(a) need not act to avoid contact until it is clear that the other boat is not keeping clear or giving room or Mark room, and
(b)shall not be penalized under this rule unless there is contact that causes damage or injury.

This is a good rule if racing bumper boats, (Lasers, Hobies that sort of thing) its not a good rule for light weight composite boats that are not damage tolerant. A game of chicken can result where the Right Of Way boat avoids contact at the last second, the boat in the wrong claims they acted to avoid contact and the ROW changed course unnecessarily and therefore no penalty, if contact had occurred the damage is the evidence.

In my opinion there are several options to fix this.
1, We all carry GPS and protest sorting out the result by playing back the incident after the race. I have used this for 6 years now and it works very well even if the other boat doesn't have GPS it still proves what my boat did. The disadvantage is the cost.
or
2, Change the rules so that both boats involved in a collision have to retire regardless of who is at fault. No penalty turns to cancel the incident. The not at fault boat awarded average points.
or
3, We should at least keep the two turn penalty for any part 2 "When boats Meet" infringement for our big events. Mozzys gybe and tack so fast now, a one turn penalty just isn't enough.

These are my opinions developed from sailing in many classes over 30 years, certainly I dont have a specific problem with any Mosquito sailors who, as a group, sail races fairly making our regattas very enjoyable.

Darryn,
Bullet
1782

Tim,
This is a great idea and one way of clearing the rules issues for all.
The situation of collisions tho' does need some clarification as ISAF rules are now driven by commercial marine law, in that International Rules for Prevention of Collisions at Sea apply and as such create a bundle of worms for those driven entirely by sailing rules, but basically it says that it is the resposibility of each vessel (whether they have right of way or not) to prevent a collision.
So when you add this into the mix the rules can become clouded especially if someone wants to play checken and others don't want to protest and not everyone knows them.

My 2 bob's worth.

David
Salpicon de Resplandor, 1744

ok thin that pic, the blue has right of way, red has to keep clear and has no over lap means theres no room at mark,
as i see it there both on port so if the blue one gybes, the blue is now on starboard and has all rights, but in other hand there was an incident at nats where there in the same situation, on starboard and at wing mark gybing on port, i claimed that there was no bouy room as i was the slower boat i gybed at the mark and the boat that had no overlap came screaming on starboard and cut me off from the mark and had to avoid a collision, the over sailor claimed he had overlap, but i didnt think he had any but was coming fast from behind, whos in the right and whos in the wrong?

Matt

Hi Matt. I have been in the same situation on a number of occasion on the gybe mark where the out side boat gybes wide of the mark and comes in on starboard and thinks he has the rights.So here is my understanding of the rules following the last picture.Red is entitled to room. Red reaches the zone first. Before Blue reaches the zone after her gybe, she becomes overlapped outside Red and must give mark-room in accordance with rule 18.2(a)Peter N

who has rughts? confusing!

Matt,
My take on your comment about opposite tacks at a mark.

The Fundemental Rule says " When boats are on opposite tacks, a port tack boat SHALL keep clear of a starboard tack boat.

In this there is no ambiguity, it is simple cut and dried, The starboard tack boat does have rights (all of them), but iaw with international rules for All vessels it is still the responsibility of both to avoid a collision. Somewhere there is still in law about safe and prudent seamanship.

And I have as Chairman of a protest committee had to uphold this rule, it cost the guy a national championship for which he has not ever forgiven me for,

Again, my two bobs worth

David

When making observation on rulings the thing to remember is the circumstance of the situation .I have been discussing room at th gybe mark ,I don’t have a problem with rule 10 when two boat meat at the top mark or any were on the course but when it comes to the gybe mark and room at the mark inside the zone ,that is where rule 18a comes in . I don’t know the circumstance of the your protest so can`t comment on that. Here is case 02
Rule 12, On the Same Tack, Not Overlapped
Rule 14, Avoiding Contact
Rule 15, Acquiring Right of Way
Rule 18.2(a), Mark-Room: Giving Mark-Room
Rule 18.2(b), Mark-Room: Giving Mark-Room
If the first of two boats to reach the zone is clear astern when she reaches it and if later the boats are overlapped when the other boat reaches the zone, rule 18.2(a), and not rule 18.2(b), applies. Rule 18.2(a) applies only while boats are overlapped and at least one of them is in the zone.
USSA 1962/87
Summary of the Facts
A and B were both on port tack, reaching to a mark to be left to starboard. The wind was light. At position 1, when A came abreast of the mark she was clear ahead of B but four-and-a-half hull lengths from the mark. B, who had just reached the zone, was three lengths from the mark. Between positions 1 and 2 A gybed and headed to the mark, becoming overlapped outside B. Between positions 2 and 3, after B had gybed and turned towards the next mark, she became clear ahead of A. When B first became clear ahead of A there was about one-half of a hull length of open water between the boats. A few seconds after B became clear ahead, A, who was moving faster, struck B on the transom. There was no damage or injury. A protested B under rule 18.2(b). B protested A under rule 12. A was disqualified and she appealed.
Decision
A apparently believed that the second sentence of rule 18.2(b) applied when the two boats were at position 1 and that B, then being clear astern, was obliged to give A mark-room. As that sentence states, it applies only if a boat was clear ahead when she reached the zone. At position 1, B had reached the zone, but A was well outside it. Moreover, the first sentence of rule 18.2(b) never applied because the boats were not overlapped when B, the first of them to reach the zone, did so. However, while the boats were overlapped, rule 18.2(a) did apply, and it required A to give mark-room to B. During that time B had to keep clear of A, first under rule 10 and later (after she gybed) under rule 11.
After B gybed she pulled clear ahead of A. At that moment rules 18.2(a) and 11 ceased to apply and rules 12 and 15 began to apply. Rule 15 required B initially to give A room to keep clear, and B did so because it would have been easy for A to keep clear by promptly bearing off slightly to avoid B’s transom after B became clear ahead. When A hit B’s transom, she obviously was not keeping clear of B, and so it was proper to disqualify A for breaking rule 12. A also broke rule 14 because it was possible for her to bear off slightly and avoid the contact with B.
After it became clear that A was not going to keep clear of B, it was probably not possible for B to avoid the contact. However, even if B could have avoided the contact, she could not have been penalized under rule 14 because she was the right-of-way boat and the contact did not cause damage or injury.
The appeal is dismissed, the protest committee’s decision is upheld, and A remains disqualified for breaking rules 12 and 14.

hmmm thanks, i think i better buy a rule book

You definitely gotta have a rule book Matt!




This is dangerous talk, because it is simply not true. Starboard does NOT always have all the rights over Port. This is very important.

Rule 18 is one of those that "limit the actions of a right-of-way boat".
Rule 18 does apply to two boats approaching a downwind or gybe mark on opposite tacks. Outside the 3-boat zone, port gives way to starboard. Inside the 3-boat zone, if the boats are overlapped when the leading boat reaches the zone the outside boat must give the inside boat mark room - port/starboard is not an issue.

This is very important at a starboard-hand leeward mark where a boat on starboard must give way to one on port as the one on port will be the inside boat.

Also I should mention, a boat coming fast from behind on Starboard at the gybe mark cannot call starboard on another boat that is on port and rounding the mark.

If the boat on starboard had the overlap in time then he could call for buoy room, but "starboard" is not relevant.

thanks tim, so i was in the right at the nats

(b) If boats are overlapped when the first of them reaches the zone,the outside boat at that moment shall thereafter give the insideboat mark-room.
If a boat is clear ahead when she reaches thezone, the boat clear astern at that moment shall thereafter giveher mark-room.
(c) When a boat is required to give mark-room by rule 18.2(b), she shall continue to do so even if later an overlap is broken or a new overlap begins. However, if either boat passes head to wind or if the boat entitled to mark-room leaves the zone, rule 18.2(b) ceases to apply.

Does this also apply at a leeward Port rounding mark? You know the classic, spinnaker aproach on Starboard with a gybe drop.

Outside the 3-boat zone port has to give way to starboard. Once the first boat enters the zone and if there is an overlap then the inside boat has mark-room.

In practice, with a port-hand rounding, there is no difference. It is the same boat that has to give way, all the way. There is one small difference though. Outside the zone the starboard tack boat could hold her course to force the other boat to gybe, but inside the zone the inside boat that has to gybe around the mark, has to get on with it and not take any more room than she needs.

Strangely the rule (18.4) that says the inside gybing boat has to gybe and not delay, doesn't apply at a gate. I can't quite imagine yet why that would be the case.

Gates.. mmmmm... It would be good to have the rule book handy and be a speed reader It's interesting when you have 10 or so boats including A's Taipans, Mozzies, Skiffs,Pacers, Sabres, Tasers and a Minnow, all descending on the gate, on both tacks, fetching opposite marks, and some of them paying more attention to the kite drop than the traffic. With all the different boat speeds and lengths who can tell who's in the zone and when, let alone who has an overlap with who?

I find that discretion is often the sensible option... rather get through a bit slower and be heading to the winward mark with the boat in one piece... or maybe I'm getting soft as I get older

If only everyone sailed a Mozzie... it would be so much better

Its definitely faster to sail a little slower sometimes, a couple of "S" turns to get rid of the speed and set yourself up for a good mark exit and you will be past most of them 100 meters after the mark.
There is no point having a crash and being in the right, spending hours fixing the boat in the shed or 2 months sorting out the insurance/boatbuilder hassle seems pointless when with a bit of planning and the willingness to be 10 seconds slower around the course the whole hassle can be averted.

Darryn
Bullet
1782