Nationals Format

Hi all,

been waiting for the forum to go quiet before posting this thought , that provoked some lively discussion at the last National AGM. Hoping if enough interest is created that it can become a Agenda item for the next National AGM .

So for those that where not at the last Nat AGM, here is the thought. After the success of holding the spinnaker Nats immediatly before the normal Nats , what about we hold all 3 different rig National titles on seperate days .

So it could work something like this (just my ramblings).
Day 1. AM, All Measurement. PM, Spinnaker Racing.
Day 2. AM, Spinnaker Racing. PM, Spinnaker Racing.
Day 3. AM, All Measurement. PM, Mk2 (Sloop) Racing.
Day 4. AM, Mk2 Racing. PM, Mk2 Racing.
Day 5. AM, All Measurement. PM, Mk1 Racing.
Day 6. AM, Mk1 Racing. PM, Mk1 Racing (all racing finishes).
Then it's party and presentation time .

Is there a difference between sloop with spinnaker and sloop without ?????

if so you'd need an additional 2 days.....



I like the idea you've proposed... in theory those keen enough could race in each class


days 1&2 setup and race for sloop-rigged c/ship
days 3&4 setup and race for sloop-rigged spinnaker c/ship
days 5&6 setup and race for cat-rigged c/ship
days 7&8 setup and race for cat-rigged spinnaker c/ship


Imagine if one boat took out all the c/ships

Another way of looking at it is you could also have it set so each class counted towards a general overall championships...

so you'd have:
champion of cat/spin
champion of sloop spin
champion of sloop
champion of cat
&
best overall Mosquito


one busy week of sailing...... but hell worth it

Oh, my aching muscles. I'm going to complain the whole time, but count me in!

Not only would it remove the cat rig cowboys from holding up the gentleman class starts, but I would be able to don the 10 gallon hat myself

...now, how to tell the crew...

Mk1 is the biggest class, cuts their sailing nationals down to 1.5 days. Not worth the effort.
Darryn
Bullet,
1782

No, only one spinnaker class, spinnaker numbers haven't been enough to think of splitting. Besides which I think 3 classes is enough .

Hi Darryn, was hoping this thread would bring out comments from some we don't hear from very often. You still sailing the ff as well?

What about getting a youngster on to the front and doing Mk2 as well, then makes a few days. If not how many races/days do you want for Titles to be worth the effort?

The basic idea behind the thought is to get more boats in each title . Plus keep a important part of the class strong and hopefully increase it, introducing young sailors to Mossies as crews .

Hi Gary,
I hope Meningie will stick with the current format.
I am never going to race mk2.
Cheers,
Darryn

Hi Darryn,

Format for Meningie I would imagine is pretty much as in the past, certainly nothing to do with this discussion. I believe any change has to be a Agenda item for a National AGM and then voted on by the members before it could take place at the following Nats, so earliest any change similar to my first post would be 2014/15.

As I said this discussion started at last years Nat AGM (and appeared to have some support) but couldn't be voted on as it was not an agenda item (this allows people like yourself that may not make it to all Nats to still participate in voting by proxy).

To me sailing the Mossie in it's 3 variants is part of what has kept me interested in the class (since 1997) and brought me back to the class when I have strayed away (feeling old ). Mossies are a awesome sloop rigged cat, thats how I started with my son .

So what format (number races/days) do you think the Mossies should use, what would make you interested in racing Mossies more?

For what it's worth I would probably get more interested in doing a Nats as I could still sail one up but also have the youngest son sail a few days with me........

I race my Mozzy most Saturdays. Both the clubs I sail at aren't real good with online results or any results really unless you hang around in the bar for a couple of hours afterwards which bores the s..t out of me. I time myself and a couple of the more competitive cats I race against and run my own competition at home on my pc. Its useful for identifying who is improving, that's how i know which VYC yardsticks work and which are pure fantasy.

I wouldn't change that much from the current format of the Nationals but I have given it some thought over the years,
1, The 4 or 5 days we race gives enough time to experience different weather conditions.
2, 10 or more races with flexibility to jam in as many as possible on one day if conditions suit.
3, Only one discard race, rewards consistency.
4, 720 if in the wrong, I don't believe a 360 is enough penalty for a prang or infringement.
5, More windward return races with a leeward gate. Gives more tactical options.
6, If we are going to race triangles, one reach should be on trapeze.
7, Courses should be positioned for good racing, not to cause prangs or to suit the very few spectators that watch.
8, More ocean venues, less lakes. For some reason our Nationals are rarely on the ocean. Sailing in big waves is a skill too.
9, Venues between Melbourne and Adelaide work best.

Most of the above is already done at the nats just with a few tweaks.

I think your multi mode type Nationals would suit the half dozen or so who race with spinnakers AND have access to a crew. Maybe you should try it as a three day event, outside the Nationals, one day for each mode, like an triathlon.

Anyway, that's way more then my 2 cents worth, I don't want to dominate the discussion, Ill step back and leave you guys to it,
Darryn
Bullet
1782

Hey Darryn,

thanks for the input, it's much more valuable than 2 cents. Some good food for thought.

I think one of the reasons for lack of "Ocean" venues, is the lack of ocean clubs where Mossies are sailed, I know Mossies have approached places like Torquay Sailing club and they are not interested in running Titles for Mossies. Does Rivoli Bay count as Ocean? Port Phillip Bay? I wouldn't call them lakes and they where venues for 2 of last 4 Nats. I too love to sail in big waves, some of the most enjoyable and challenging Mossie racing I have done was at Torquay, but I am not sure it is for everyone.

Hi Gary,
I haven't sailed Rivioli Bay, was there swell to surf? Port Phillip isn't ocean, not much clean swell but plenty of confused chop to get some rides off.
Warrnambool was the last nats I remember with decent waves but I have missed a few since then.
cheers,
Darryn

Hi all,

As a newcomer to Mozzies, this coming nats will be my first for the class. Can someone please tell me what the expected format of racing is?
I sail cat-rigged and do have spinnaker.

Other classes I've been involved in have had (actually or close to) 9 heats over 6 or 7 days.

I like the idea of windward-return racing with a bottom gate, as triangle races become very much a 'procession'.

Ultimately though, I'll be happy with whatever is dished up, as I'm just keen to be involved...

It should be the same as last time. Two days of spinnaker racing (all-in, short-sharp windward-leeward races) followed by 4 days of Cats and Sloops racing without spinnakers in their own divisions (7 to 10 triangle-sausage races).

Rivoli Bay is as good as South Aus gets for ocean waves, straight from Antartica with love and it has a well known surf beach. Little tip for Meningie because it's about 6ft deep and between 8 to 15km to the other side the chop has a funny wave frequency, if you get a chance get some practice in there.

Hmm, as much i like to be all for it, theres a few things, i like to say,

Pros,Good to get more people into the class, you can sail in all regattas, bigger fleet racing and probably a lot more but cant think right now,

Cons: A sailor can win all regattas, (no trophy sharing), need 2 weeks to make a good event thats not rushed. what yacht club can hold nationals for 2 weeks and experience all weather conditions.

Im all for it but those are my concerned.

Any thoughts?

I have asked around the other "ocean" clubs like torquay, and not interested, Somers Yc has swell and short chop with tide straight from the heads, but clearly people dont like the "ocean" sailing from the Vic state titles as there was a massive drop in boats. i enjoy ocean sailing.

In my opinion this wouldn't work. Yes it may get more boats on each of the start lines but then agin it may not. How many crews are going to want to sit around and wait while skippers sail two days spinnaker cat rigged (like most of you do) then sail two days then wait two more for presentation.

I know of at least one other class that has tried this and they found people turned up for the mode of sailing they normally sail then went home. Come the last day and presentation only half the class was there.

For those who don't enjoy sailing the other modes they will probably not even bother to come if there is a large distance to travel for only a day and a half racing. Then what happens if the weather doesn't cooperate? They may end up with a half days racing for any given mode.

Just my opinion but I don't think it would work. I think it would be a good separate regatta like a three day mixed regatta where we could all sail each mode on a day to give bigger fleets and promote all modes of the class to others.

^ good post

Is there any reason why the presentation couldn't be held once that class has finished IE: that night, would also give the option of a more social gathering of the different classes. The presentation could be attended by the class that's just sailed aswell as the class that's about to sail..... effectively doubling the 'normal' turnout for presentations !!!


that happens on normal club days aswell, and other forms of racing suffer from this just as much, even the 'fans & spectators' will leave the instant the checkered falls.....


Its a championship, those that half hearted will always find an excuse as to why they didn't go, to far, not enough sailing, to windy, to cold, its in the ocean, its...... all to hard !!!. If the social activites are more a part of the event then it may intice those for a come look see
the weather......... its always a what if

Hi all,

my original post was shortest time scale possible, just to start the conversation. I think it should be longer, maybe 2 1/2 days for Sloops and then Cats. With the option to sail classes concurrently if blown out on other days.

I intentionaly, put the Cat rigs last as that gives largest number guaranteed at final night presentation, most spinnaker boats would be there anyway as they sail other formats, so if you had a couple of sloops that didn't hang around so be it, that happens anyway at times.

Thanks for the information.

As a newcomer, I don't want to stick my nose in too far too early, but in my experience in all sorts of football clubs, basketball clubs, various committees, and my line of work I have found that usually trying to please too many people is often (almost always) counterproductive.

By nature I embrace change and innovation, but in this instance I think that altering the 'tried & true' will actually marginalise/segregate some competitors. It opens up the event to be perceived as 'more hassle than it's worth' or 'Mickey mouse' for many who are only thinking about coming.

I tend to agree with Peter's comments. The idea is not bad, just not suited to a 'Nationals' format, perhaps a '3 day event' outside of the Nats?

Gents,
From my point of view, I think we need to access the fundamentals of what we are trying to achieve and be concious of the demographics of all our members. We have new mozzie sailors, stalwarts, young sailors learning, old sailors returning to sailing, social sailors, cat, sloop, +/- spinnaker and keen racers.

To cater for all of the above and encourage large fleet numbers, I think we should maximise sailing opportunities for all. Once we get up to 100 boats at a Nationals perhaps then we can break it up more.

Luke

The suggestion is to put the two fleets back together, not break them up.

We currently have around 10 sloops and 22 cats on average. The idea is to have 20 sloops and maybe 30 cats racing by putting them together.

Many cat sailors own jibs, and all sloops can be sailed cat rigged (some might let the crew have a go at skippering for a change).

Some of the cat-sailors family members who are usually on the beach would be able to get out in the racing for the sloop part of the event.

It is a radical idea, and it needs a lot of thought, but it's been suggested because there are a lot of good reasons for it. Principally getting more people involved, and more boats at the start lines in the National titles - without requiring any extra boats.

hi all
is it not best to have all boats on the start line at once
so have the nationals with 5 days racing with plenty of races so the most consistent sailor wins
the vyc handicap rating works out the results
or is that not what the handicap is about
because in am from queensland I would to sail (race) as much as possible
it would be hard for me to wait for 2 days a change of class and then wait for presentation
I think if you could 50 boats on a start line that would be the best thing for this class
this is just my opinion

the hobie 16 nationals do this, they have youth class and womens in the first 3 days, then masters and grand masters, in the next 3 days , then the open which has over 70+ boats on the start line, how do i know? my brother was there cross the whole fleet on port on the start line 2 years ago and got a trophy for it.

I am really encouraged by the continued topic of discussion that was first mentioned at the 2013 AGM. I aired my concern then because I only had one boat, not three. So I have undertaken a project to get another. Might have two ready for the three-way nationals (or 4 or 5 or whatever) when they are mooted.

The Mosquito class would never do that. It would make the Titles results dependent on some arbitrary set of yardsticks which the class has no control over.

Titles should be decided on the water, not back in the office, by the number-crunchers.

Hi,

I like the idea.
The sequence of rigs / races probably matters.

I would sail the spinnaker either one up or two.
Then my youngest would probably join for a sloop run.
Then the cat section on my own and yes Hamish could have a run at the cat on his own with a wish for light winds.
Sure....why not...

Sure I understand Darryn's comments about travelling for a short few days.
I also get it may not work for all.

The idea of all in at once from Brett would be a sight but you would have to choose one rig and only race that.

Phillip's idea of having multiple boats is a real winner.
That may make second hand boat value go up, retention of boats by the fleet or more new builds.

We will all need double decker trailers as well.

Lets keep talking about it.

It's all about getting and in the long term keeping more boats on the water in each rig . After all who wants to sail a Nationals with less than 10 boats in it , when there are boats sailing at the same time in other rig formats that you could be racing against . To me holding the Nationals for each rig variety on different days can only increase fleet numbers and that has to be good .

As for worrying about pot hunters you could have a rule that you can only win one National Title if that makes people feel better .

I think this is more of an attempt to increase the number of boats that use a spinnaker then to increase Nationals numbers.

The spinnaker has been around for a long time, those who wanted one have had plenty of opportunity to get one but most haven't.
Darryn
Bullet
1782

Thought I'd put up a poll to see who's got a kite for their Mozzy... next thread up. Cheers,

I like the poll, good idea. Nationals numbers and home club also give a good idea of what is going on. Spinnaker uptake seems centered at GLYC were it was developed.
Darryn
Bullet
1782

Not really darryn,
There are a few at rye now and somers, and QLD will have 7 with kites in the next few months.

Matt

And McCrae, and Sugarloaf.

Cheers

4 of the five mosses at rye have kites although we are losing luke to NSW next week but there are more mossies an the way to Rye...

we've got 3 of 4 regular mossies at Barmera running around with kites. and Port Vincent's new fleet has 3 i think.

lake Boga has 2 Mossies with kites now

Geez I have been a bit busy lately (had a great sail against Nick both of us with spinnakers last Sunday) so haven't been on the forum for a bit, but I can't let a blatantly incorrect statement like this go with out comment.

As can be seen in posts since Darryn's quoted above, there are Spinnaker Mossies all over the place and for many of the newer Mossie sailors it's one of the reasons they are getting in to the class, not all currently have spinnakers but many aspire to. Spinnakers aren't for everybody, but that is the great thing about Mossies, everybody has a choice of what rig they want to sail.

In contrast to Darryn's assumption, I have raised this topic to try and increase the number of Sloop rigged Mosquito's sailing, as at the last Nationals where all rigs sailed (the first ever spinnaker Nats) there where more Spinnaker rigged Mossies than Sloop rigged and I think that the Sloop is and has been a great way to introduce young people to cat sailing and I don't want to see it dissapear.

Why not have the Mk1 and Mk2 states on different weekends? I think your idea will encourage growth in both versions of the boat at a state level.

It's just not worth driving a third of the way across Australia for a one and a half day Mk1 Nationals. What if one of those days has no wind or is blown out?

Spinnaker numbers are surprising, would be interesting to know how many have been made. I hope some more locals fit them, I have only raced against a Mosquito with a spinnaker twice, looks like fun.

Putting on the flak jacket now...
Darryn
Bullet
1782

Hi Darryn,

At present in Victoria we have Spinnaker Titles on a different weekend to Non Spinnaker so extending the concept to Cat & Sloop is worth considering, but it's still not going to get more Sloops on the water at Nats where Spinnakers are already seperate.

Not sure if Lindsay Irwin keeps a tally probably not, but he often comments how he can't believe the number of spinnakers (and for that matter main sails) he has made for Mossies and of course there are quite a few others been made by Allygator and Goodall.

As for numbers it's probably fair to say that many of the newer sailors are spinnaker sailors and frequent the forum, not so much the longer term sailors. But there are a few more than 14 spinnakers out there, at least 20 I would guess.

hi darren,
not sure who u are, but i have been sailing mossies the past couple of years and have not seen you at a nationals. it seems to me that not even a 5 day regatta is enough to get you to sail... So what is??

I have sailed for 36 years, in the last 15 years I have owned 4 Mosquitos, sailed in 7 Nationals and raced my Mozzys in Townsville, Wagga, Victoria and SA. I think that gives me the right to state my opinion.

Rivoli Bay my tow vehicle was damaged the day before the event, I had already payed my race fees and accommodation, was very disappointed not to attend and it cost a bomb.

Paynesville I decided not to race, most lakes don't interest me, no ocean/large swell to surf, dirty water, crazy wind.

I am not sure how to answer your question so i will say this. I always plan my sailing based on location, format and weather, I dont just jump in the car and go.

I will continue to read what is proposed for future events and if I dont like it, I wont be there, its simple.

I am the only person on the forum who isn't keen on what is proposed so how about we just agree to disagree and move on.

cheers,
Darryn
Bullet
1782

I am with darryn on this one.
Started sailing an old mozzi 2 years ago, after water returned to our lake.
Not a chance id travel across the country for 1.5 days of mk1 sailing.
As good as it would be learning from the best, it's not enough sailing to commit to the travel and the $ for a small amount of time on water.
No intention of sailing mk 2 (no crew) and no intention of getting a spin set up (not interested)
Cheers
Al
Scorpion
1101

so could have all class sailing against each other of 5 days
so than it may be worth 1,5 days travel
just my through
I only have one boat and one me and one sailed class

Hmmm, interesting thread and some strange comments.

Not often that I agree totally with Darryn on a lot of things but this one, absolutely.

Maybe people need to remember what happened when everyone wanted to stuff around with the class last time, it damn near went into history.

First grow the class to the numbers you used to have, second encourage the new guys to participate and then, maybe you can look at splitting fleets.

The best way in my opinion (which ain't worth much anymore) is to have the spinnaker nationals in the week before, as it is now and then into the normal fleet championships.

Enjoy and I will watch with some interest. ... and spinnakers have given the class the best "shot in the arm" in many many years. Would be nice to see more being used in SA particularly in the metro waters.

dkd
I think your thoughts are good and I tend to agree
some things are better left alone
for me I am spinnaker bias
the opportunity or challenge to sail non spinnaker would be fun
I think regardless of difference of peoples opinions' constructive criticism may be positive for over all class development
just from me sailing at Southport gold coast there has been a lot of interest and another 3 boats being built / restored
I am trying to go to all the major regattas in QLD to promote our class
going to wild cat in 4 days it is going to be fun
just my thought's could be good most likely not

I keep hearing this line that changing the class (or wanting to change it) caused the class to die. Can you be more specific please?

From what I can see the class has not changed at all in more than 20 years, and it nearly died because it was replaced by the Taipan, and sailing as a sport went into free-fall anyway.

The original point of this thread was not to suggest splitting the fleet but to put it back together in order to stop the decline of the sloop rig. We currently have a very small sloop-rigged fleet that sails their own nationals while the cat rigs sail theirs. The suggestion was to sail them one after the other so that cat sailors could race in the sloop fleet and vice-versa.

If people are really rigidly stuck in their mode of sailing then it won't work, and maybe it's just too hard to get enough races in, but we know there are a lot of cat rigged Mozzies out there with a jib in the sail box, all sloops can be sailed cat rigged, and it would be a shame to see the sloops die out any more than they already have.

well said tim!!!

Now that you say that Tim, I have a Jib for my boat, that I have used a hand full of times, would be interesed in sailing a Nationals in both versions, with no crew training maybe a bit slower than the full time sloop guys but would be a bit of fun.

Ross

No Turbulence.
1774

True.... but how many are there ??? perhaps we need to find that out first


My own experience:
my first mozzie had a jib setup fitted when I bought it, I had it removed before my first race on that boat and I never re-fitted it during my ownership.
JurassicKarp has a jib setup although it too has been taken off in preference of cat rigged and later with a spinnaker setup, at this stage I'd like to re-install the jib setup but I'd be going in blind as to the correct setup at the moment, the bits are there but they make little sense as to where exactly they should be.


I would think many others would be in a similar situation, the jib n bits may well be there but the layout has long been lost....

Kingy

Hi All,
I am of the same view as Darryn and David. I personally have no desire to sail Mk1 and won't travel for a 1 to 2 day event, which potentially could be wiped out if the weather isn't good.
I know I am not the only one in SA who shares this view with other sloop rigged boats also not keen on this format. I don't think I could get a crew to travel for only a 2 day event anyway!
The other aspect of this is that if you loose 4 or 5 (or more) sloops that would normally compete in the longer format, will this devalue the competition, and be counter intuitive to what you are trying to achieve?
Over the years there has been varying levels of numbers in each fleet. When I first started sailing in mossies the sloops were the dominant fleet. Are we just in a cycle where Cats are the dominant fleet?
We are starting to see a slight change in numbers in SA with more sloops sailing regularly. My view is that we should be trying grow the sloop numbers rather than change the format.
Anyway, that is my 2 bobs worth. Has been an interesting thread to follow!

Great discussion.

I don't have a stong opinion on this as I sail the Mozzie in all her rig configurations (that's why I gotta Mozzie). I would happily sail no matter what the racing set up.

Haven't been able to make it to a nationals since Wallaroo anyway.