Square Top Sails

Gents,

I know this has been a topic of the past, but it was before my time, and I am interested in the advantages of higher aspect square top sails on mozzies.

There are a number of Arrows at Speers Point that have been using square tops for a while seemingly to good effect on an old design. The Arrows maintained the same sail area but took some from the back and added it to the top. The square tops can be hoisted on their old masts, and although some boats have gone for shorter booms the rig seems mostly unchanged.

Apart from looking good, I imagine it would reduce drag and give more control in varying conditions. Can someone who has one tell us what it is like or could the committee give me some idea as to what happened with this proposal?

Regards,
Luke

One South African mosquito sailor has been playing with it for a while now .... BARNEY 2015





bit more about it on the ....

African Mozzies on F.B.

and at the

African mozzies HOME page

I did have the details of the sail cut but have misplaced it.... will add it when I find it

Very Nice,

Thanks for the prompt reply Kingy. The it seems to be working pretty well from the pictures, and looks great. I would be interested to see how it works in comparison to a conventional sail.

I was trying to work out how it would effect the centre of pressure and the effect on going to windward but I might have to do some research on that front. I might try to ask the SA boats what they think of it.

Luke

I also noticed that the FB photo on that SA site has a square top leading the others.

we have dicussed it before.
Speak to Tim Shep, I think cos we don't get enough leech tention and the mast is too flexible for the sail. As the committee was saying to me we are trying to keep the mossie original, if u want to modify a mossie go F16 rules

Matt

Everytime we modify the mossie so does the yardstick. THe hobies complain that we use updated sail material and dropped the weight over the years where the hobie as one design only have added a cunno on the boat.

Would this be something Australian Mosquitos class could adopt or should South Africa and Australia have the same rules
Square top sails may be a way to get more interest in from future sailers into this class
The arrow class said that the square top sails were easier to control in windier conditions there for safer ( I believe this they be pushed by the safety issue , which has led to more sailers in class )
This is only a through be me only
Once again not trying to cause any conflict
Arrow info from a couple of arrow sailers which may not be correct

Our mast section will be a big issue, they are too flexable to be effective with the square top. Also as mentioned you need to get more leech tension therefore would need bigger mainsheet systems.

The cobra's are currently trying to go down this path and so far only one boat has been trialing it as far as i know.

Gents,

Again, I guess we could ask the SA chapter how they dealt with the handicap and Hobie 16 conflict, but from recent handicapping results it seems more on who you know and what way the wind is blowing than materials and design. With the massive differences already between the two classes in hull and sail they seem to already be on opposite ends of the spectrum depending on the weather conditions. Personally I didn't join mozzies to sail against Hobies, but because it seemed a great social class and I wanted to sail against other mozzies.

I think the modern look would help attract new sailors to the class without any great difference to the boat, as it looks good and modern for something designed in 1960s. I also think that in light to moderate winds the sheeting systems people are using now would provide sufficient leach tension, and above that it you would probably want it to twist off. The Arrows use a PT mast section, and they have only recently gone to diamond wires.

I am not trying to upset the apple cart, but after the experiencing the differences between sailing with and without a kite, and people stating this kept them in the class, that this would perhaps be another step forward. Here in NSW I have heard of the demise of Cobras, Maricats and Stingray classes, and the measures the Arrows have taken to survive. We have seen the effect of Taipans and recently Vipers and A class on mozzie numbers. Through the efforts of the class, mozzies seem to be on the increase, and my reason for bringing up this topic is that I think this is another option to continue that trend. I think that Mozzies could become one of the last classes that people can build at home and sail competitively with far more expensive classes.

Luke

On the mast flex issue, another Arrowism is a diamond wire on the front of the mast to provided stiffness.

Luke

https://drive.google.com/folderview...ing&tid=0Bw5frPV9W0wuV0JsV2xPZDhXaWM

this is one of the albums from the recent cobra nats, all but one boat is now using square top mains.

looking through the days there was one broken mast, seems typical for the class. almost as bad as paper tigers!

Are people aware that you can get the same size mast section that also has internal reinforcing ribs to stiffen the section.

I believe it is used for cross beams on cobras and hydra cats.

Dave 1724

I agree that we should look at this option. try something similar to the cobra as I don't think they altered their rig at all if any, we need to think about the next 40 years of the mosquitos class and this would bring the class into the current trend for all new the classes, look at the tornados, 49ers,Taser all have updated their rig to fat heads, and for that matter most keel boats now run fat head sails, lets not think about what we want to sail but what the next generation want to sail if we want the mosquito to attack new blood.

I tend to agree as long as the changes are simple and dont cause a lot of extra expense, apart from a new sail (always up for a new one). The Mossie is relatively inexpensive and a great boat, just got to keep that theme and not obsolete boats with a rule change.......

....I'll leave the technical merits up to the experts.....I'd love to hear their views!!!!

Definaty worth some consideration.......just as long as we don't "break" a great class.....

Glad we can discuss the advantages and disadvantages and at least consider the option. I look forward to getting some technical details too.

maybe talk to Peter at Alegayter as I know they have been talking about square top for a SA Cobra

I sailed at Speers Point day and asked the Commodore about the Arrow conversion to square tops. He said that every state got one made up, and then they were tested by various sailors. At the next Nationals they lay them beside each other and compared their merits before making a decision. Within 2 years everyone had got one, even the skeptics.

Looking at the Arrows; even with their weird swinging centreboard and hull shapes, the sail has modernised their appearance and they have seen an increase in fleet numbers and interest as a consequence. They think the jury is still out as to the performance but the common belief is a small improvement.

I guess I just want to ask the question as to whether this is something we should consider doing? I messaged the South African Mozzies to ask their opinions and any trials they have conducted, and I will forward what they reply.

Luke

Hi all,

I'm enjoying this discussion. I think I speak for all the PVSC mozzie sailors (and as of today we have a new one!) that the reasons we like this class are:
- Flexibility; cat, sloop, spinnaker options
- Bang for buck; great performance at family friendly price
- Great sailing community

In my opinion, any changes to sail shape (which I support, in theory) need to be thoroughly investigated by the relevant state/national bodies and any future changes be made in the most COST EFFECTIVE manner.

As a relative newcomer (14 months) I think the (potential) recognition of the spinnaker fleet is a great step forward, and sail shape change appears to be a logical step. Put a timeline on it though, eg; plan do develop the sail over the next 2,3 or 4 years and only introduce when its as close to bulletproof as you're ever going to get.

My two-bobs worth.

From what I saw at the Vic state titles its already moving away from the traditional pinhead sails....
There was a few boats that ran this shape, this one being the most clearly obvious with the others less noticeable but enough to be seen as a non traditional cut.

What I witnessed at the titles suprised the hell out of me, as I left the rescue boat and waded back to the beach, one of the beach goers remarked on how lovely all the mosquitos were, she then asked what all the other boats racing with them were......
I remarked that they were mostly mosquitos with a few arrow catamarans, the arrows have an "arrow head" symbol, she then said but what are the other ones that haven't got the mosquito word on them ???

So from a non sailing perspective, if you want people to know "what boat is that" then this is probably one hell of an advertising tool that we are missing all together




even at a great distance & back to front.... the type of boat is clearly visible


Ask any non sailing person what boat that is and I'll bet 99% will say its a mosquito....
the seed is planted, they'll have a boat type they can identify with instantly, that might help if they take up sailing

attracting new blood for the swarm could be as simple as a single word...



If we are to upgrade to a fat-head or square top sail then while we are at it then maybe the word mosquito should be a major part of that plan....

just typing out-loud here

Other things we need to consider with the square top sail before we go to much further.... and this seriously needs to be part of our discussions....
(remembering all I have is a roughed out hand drawn modification on the jib to work from at the moment)



Will we need to re-cut the jib design for the sloop rigged catamarans running the square top sails ?

Who can re-design the jib to suit a square top and who pays ??

Do we alter the jib into a more squarer topped sail aswell ???






just being fair here.... mk1 AND mk2 mozzies should BOTH benefit from a change and those changes should work as best as possible be it by one sail or by 2

square top jibs ?????

on an A-class

I like the the idea of the big advertisement too. How much does it cost to be included on the sail?

There does not need to be any modifications to the jib to work with a square top. Square top jibs are new and still in development besides they need major modifications to the rig to work.

If people want to play with square top jibs that is what development classes like f16 are for.

As for the the sail on 1781 and few others they are totally within the current class rules.

I do think the advertising on the sails can be beneficial to the class and should certainly be encouraged.

Personally I don't think anyone here wants to go F16, for me its more of an upgrade to a design that keeps the boat both modern in its appearance with a slight performance gain thrown in, we after all are playing with the very future of the class so extreme care is well warranted as it's equally as important as the change to non timber hulls and the addition of the spinnaker. It worries me to think that if we cant make a few well planned and thought out changes through the decades that people will infact go F16 or other classes to stay in a modernish boat & that cant be good for the class in the long run
The fact that we have changed from home built timber hulls and the addition of the spinnaker suggests we have already taken tiny steps down the development road









From what I have read on the subject your quite right, but the question had to be asked, just to make everyone aware that one change to the mainsail could have a flow-on effect from those running a jib further down the road....




never doubted it for an instant.... but its already 'trending' to a squarer sail shape in my opinion .....




..... without question in my opinion aswell

Can anyone give us a what it cost breakdown please

the wording on my and my bro sails costs from Irwin about $140

Could the change just make the gap between fastest and slowest even bigger?
Change sail shape, make boats faster, handicap changes again.
Blokes with older boats (me included haha) are then at a disadvantage.
No more going to regattas sailing your old clinker well and collecting a trophy or two.
I'm not saying I'm completely against the idea, Infact anything that does make the class stronger I'm completely in support of, but I could see it turning people without the $$ to adjust to the changes away from the great mozzi class or even discouraging new comers because of the extra coin they have to lay out to be competitive. Just another opinion to consider.
Al scorpion 1101

I agree with Kingy.

I think it is poor that people are recommending going to another class just because we are asking a question! We are investigating an option to get more people into the class, not repel existing members.

Square tops are a subject that has been considered in the past, they are a development that other similar classes to ours have gone with and certainly something we should at least rationally talk about. My understanding is that Mozzies are scaled down Tornados, and square tops are something they adopted many years ago.

As our state and National results illustrate, the better sailor will always beat the better boat within our class. Most competitive sailors update their sails every 5 years or so, and the sail should cost the same but be a different cut. The only changes the Arrows made to their rig was a shorter boom and lower or adjustable gooseneck. If the existing boom was modified then the costs would be minimal, as are the increases in performance, however the modernised look would make a big difference to updating our class.

Perhaps before this becomes too much of a hot topic, we should get some details from the South African mozzie with a square top about what is required to reduce the conjecture and allow us to make an informed decision.

Luke

Hi All,

I thought I would put my 1 or 2 cents worth in as I was commenting about this on Saturday while looking over the Arrow fleet at Portarlington.

The Arrows have gone to a newer section mast to support their square head sails and kept the same jib. I should say going to, as there was a mix of old and new sections with guys having plans to upgrade first sail then mast. I understood that the fittings were simply taken from one and put on the other, making the cost more about the section and time than a complete rig. The winningest (!) Arrow had a square main, new mast and more than probably a sailor onboard that may have been able to win using bedsheets and a broomstick.

I have spoken to a couple of the Mossie sailors over the last year or so about the square top main idea. As I understand it, one of our top sailors had one made a couple of years ago and tested it out. It was shelved as the consensus was that while it showed an improvement in upwind speed, it was not as fast downwind. total achieved gain for the change was zero.

Now with the advent of spinnaker boats, we have that missing speed downwind - Should the newly (about to be) adopted Mk3 boats be granted a square top main to go with the spinnaker?

The Mk3 already has a different handicap, why limit it to a single change?

Those sailing with it have shown that cost comes in third place to enjoyment and speed, so adoption within the natural turnover of sails could run at about 3 -5 years for most.

Some downsides would be 2 separate sections to be held by the association, and 2 complete rigs to be carried with the spinnaker boats. I am sure there are many others, none insurmountable.

Cheers

Trevor

Hi All,
As discussed on the weekend a fellow sailor says our mast is too "soft". we need a mast section that is heavy and stiff. by saying that alot of weight is on the mast on a light boat. The boat would be heavier and the righting moments woundn't be correct unless we widen the platform or heavier platform. There has been talk about carbon rigs too. They would be ideal and would work BUT......$$$$$$. could pay $2k and beyond for one mast section.

yep it was very obvious he'd sorted out the change to square top

and yet the other square top wasn't anywhere near as competitive in comparision, it really only ran slightly better than the others with the traditional sail




and yet at their Aust Championships @ Loch Sport (29th December 2012 to the 4th January 2013) the story was different.....






different version again....



more pics here.

Those of us that are mentioning F16's and such arent recommending going to another class in fact I am always pushing our class to people, we are simply mentioning if you want to experiment and such there are classes to do that. I think one of the strengths is that the class is affordable for a range of people. Im not saying we dont develop the class but we also dont want to push people out of the class because they cant affort to get a new rig and get left behind on the water. We need to look at this carefully so we dont see a repeat of the class implosion from years ago.

As for the Tornado. A- they are a scalled up mossie we arent the scaled down version, we are older. B- When they updated their main to a square top and added the kite they also upgraded their mast section to a wing mast ie wider section to get a stiffer mast section with less mast bend which is what you need with a square top.

Our current section is flexy and will bend, therefore in a gust the mast bends which will open the leech and depower the main. With a square top you are relying on the main to do its own depowering by the head falling to leeward and opening the leech therefore depowering they dont need the mast section to depower. You cant sucsussfully combined the flexy mast and the square top.
Just my point of view having spent quite some time working with bigger cats and Skiff sails with square heads.

Just thought I would mention again, just in case it was forgotten .There is a mast section available that is the same profile as the current mast section but has internal stiffening ribs as a part of the extrusion.

this is a possible way of addressing the soft mast argument.Also the weight increase would be minimal.
Dave 1724

I have heard back from the South African chapter and they are forwarding my questions to the owner of the square top who apparently has a lot of information about it.

Again, lets not start speculating until we get some actual information.

Luke

Well there's a lot of posts since the last time I had a look at the forum been busy, going sailing does that .



Dave can you tell us where you can get this section that fits Mossie rules, the person that orders masts from Capral for the VMCA has never heard of it and as the South African Mossies and Cobras buy at least some of their sections from the VMCA, if something better was out there I think they would be using it. Also one member has spent years chasing a stiffer mast for his own project of a taller rig but has not been able to come up with a different mast that didn't incur too great a weight penalty.

It must be remembered that the reason why a Mossie performs so well with a small rig, is it's power to weight ratio, you put the weight of a Taipan mast for instance up on a Mossie and the hobby horsing would be horrific and when you're rocking back and forth you're not going forward. Believe me States reminded me of how bad hobby horsing can be in the Bay chop .

Mossie sailmakers I have spoken to, don't seem to think it's practical from a performance point of view to go square top, asthetics is something else, but not worth chasing in my opinion.

Arrows in Vic have not been saved by the square top (as yet anyway) and as mentioned need a stiffer mast, so more cost.

Until somebody can come up with a reasonably priced light weight mast alternative, I can't see how the Mossie can go square top.

May be time for an explanation of my situation which in turn would help explain as to why I'm watching this thread so closely....


Jurassic Karp 1740 (rebuild nearly done) will need a new mast and main-sail after the broken mast damaged my best sail

Twice Shy 1182 definitely needs the ~30 year-old "main-sail" replaced as well


I don't want to have to do it twice as the expense will mean one will simply be parked, I can afford to replace the sails and mast now but to find out in a couple or even a few months time that square top rigs are now 'ok' would mean I'm one that will be left behind purely on the affordability side


I'd even go as far as to offer the two boats as testing platforms ......

a reasonably "on weight" and fairly current Mosquito that has the ability to be sailed as cat or sloop & spinnaker for either setup
an older cat that's in the +65 league that's sailed sloop and cat rigged.... I could hook the spi up too I guess
& I sail both on lakes & the sea, and the windier the better (drifters were for people that wanted a Chrysler Panel-Van or sidways action in the car )


so should I put my hand up to test out a square top on both boats if one was available ...[img]http://www.outerlimits4x4.com/images/smilies/icon_ruff.gif[/img][img]http://www.outerlimits4x4.com/images/smilies/icon_ruff.gif[/img][img]http://www.outerlimits4x4.com/images/smilies/icon_ruff.gif[/img][img]http://www.outerlimits4x4.com/images/smilies/icon_ruff.gif[/img][img]http://www.outerlimits4x4.com/images/smilies/icon_ruff.gif[/img]





do I want to buy a new main and mast for Karp and a new main for Shy only to find out their redundant before they are broken in.....

I recall reading on another classes forum........

90% was asthetics.... 5% performance & safety..... so I bought one simply because it looks so damn good

Ladies and Gents,

As promised here is the response from Kevin- the owner of the Square top in South Africa. Makes for an interesting read and he certainly is facing some of the challenges discussed.

Regards,
Luke

Hi Luke

I must start by saying that it is still early days, and I have a lot of
experimenting to do before I can say that this is the way to go.
A bit of history - I have a few other yachts - Hobie Tiger, Dragonfly D800
tri, and a Farrier F9R Tri, all with BIG square top mains - and they work
very well! So for me it was a natural upgrade for the Mosquito to change
from pinhead to square top - something I have been toying with for a number
of years.

One of the big problems is to get everyone to agree - so what I did was to
build a new main, but with exactly the same sail area as the old main - I
shortened the luff to 6600cm, the foot to 2350cm and added that to the top,
which ended up at 830cm. This way I could convince the negative guys that I
gained no advantage from additional sail area, and then set about proving
that the square top is faster because of design and better sail control. The
mast remains the same length, the boom can be shortened or replaced. The
only cost is a new sail - same price as the old cut.

The positive things:
The boom is higher for the crew to get under
The boom is now parallel with the deck (looks much better)
The main sheet attaches to the clew - this means we can use a very
light boom (28mm aluminium pipe)
The boat looks updated and fast (I feel important for attracting
young sailors to the class)
The price is the same as the old main

Sailing with the square top:
I have had a mixed bag of results - but mostly good. In very light
conditions I found a definite advantage - I was able to point higher than
anyone upwind and go slightly faster - downwind little or no advantage at
this stage. I managed to win our provincial championships fairly easily in
light winds.
On the other end of the scale I find a big advantage upwind and downwind in
strong conditions. The sail is easy to flatten with the Cunningham - as you
tighten it, the leech opens at the top and the sail flattens - every puff I
accelerated away from the rest and managed to extend my lead through the
race.
At first I battled downwind with the spinnaker - The boat kept nose diving
and bus stopping as the puffs hit - so I decided to sail it more like a
Tiger - sheeted in the main and travelled in on the traveller - thereby
reducing the exposed sail area at the top and the tendency to nose dive - I
found I was the same speed in puffs, but faster in the lulls - no more bus
stops - very happy with those results.

Sailing in medium winds was a problem (8 - 12knts). I found I had no
advantage and at times felt to be at a disadvantage in these conditions.
However, I expected this due to the mast problem!

From the outset I felt that the mast would be too soft and bendy to carry a
square top. After the first sail I knew I would need to address this. I have
fitted a forward facing diamond (parrot perch) between the foot and the
hound. This has worked well, but poses a few problems:

The diamond does interfere with jib when tacking - not badly, but
crew needs to help sheets through.
The mast is stiff enough between foot and hound, but bends a lot
above the hound.

In medium wind, I can't get enough leech tension - I sheet in harder to
close the leech, the mast bends, sail flattens and leech opens again.
Creases start forming - use a bit of Cunningham - mast bends and leech
opens.............
So I found myself soundly beaten into second place at our national champs
over December.

Unfortunately I have not had another opportunity to sail my Mosquito again,
but I will be making a few changes to stiffen the mast and overcome the
problem.

On the whole I am very happy with the square top, and can positively say
that once I have sorted out the mast stiffness, it will be a big improvement
on performance and aesthetics!!

I will also be experimenting with a carbon mast - while I know this will
work and will be the best solution, I have to think of the cost to the fleet
- this is however another fight for another day!!

One last comment - The Mosquito is still my favourite and preferred cat to
sail ............... I'll keep you updated of any progress.

Cheers
Kevin

Kevin's Sail Does look good! Interesting comments from him also.

Ross
No Turbulence
1774

Sorry for the late reply to your question Gary. I went and found out some more information on mast sections from the catamaran expert up here in Brisbane.

The mast section with the internal ribs was made specifically for the Mari-cat class. The length of the mast for these boats would be to short for the Mossie and there are only a few left. But wait there's more. One longer section is still left that is long enough for a Mossie mast.

The supplier of this mast section owns the die to make these. A deal could be made to run more of this section if the association spoke with the supplier.

The supplier strongly suggested going with a larger section mast the same as the Nacra four five. more readily available and a more reasonably priced.

So in summary as it stands realistically the original Mossie section is out of date for a square top sail.
Dave 1724

Hi Dave,

a section that fits the current rules is obviously simpler, but if options where looked at, stiffness and weight are the most important from a performance point of view. Are any figures available for these sections? Also of course price, I doubt that any will be as cheap as our current section at $260, but any idea on prices?

Hi Gary .
As far as weight goes I 'do believe that a deeper mast section ,say up to 110 deep would not add very much to the weight.
Some may argue that the larger section may create more leverage but this can only be found out through trial and error.

Always keep in mind that any mast that is chosen for square top application needs to support two on trap.
Dave.

I heard a rumour there where some Mosquitos in the past running Hydra masts which had the internal ribs (they were not legal so not many people knew,imagine sailors pushing the rules! :)). Maybe they are the same section as the Mari cat.

Ross
No Turbulence
1774

Hi Ross,

these are the only restrictions on masts,

11 MAST
11.1 The mast shall be made of an extruded aluminium alloy.
11.2 The maximum height of the top of the mast including all permanent fittings shall not be greater than 7360 mm above the top of the main beam.
11.3 The forestay attachment point shall be 5280 mm ± 100 mm from the top of the main beam. If more than one potential forestay attachment point is provided then all such points shall fall within the measurement tolerance.
11.4 Section size: Width 59 mm min; 63 mm max. Depth 86 mm min; 91 mm max.
11.5 Tapered mast permitted, but when used tapering shall only be above the 5180 mm mark.
11.6 Mast rotation control must be fitted

So internal ribs are no problem, as long as external dimensions fit sizes above, which are easily checked.

goodall designs said about ~$250....

big difference

next time your emailing him........ could you please ask

A/ if he's modified the jib as yet and if so to what dimensions he went to ?
B/ If the jib is unchanged, does he plan a re-cut in the future to suit the square top ?
C/ if there is a website that has the Sth African mosquito rules and regulations ?
D/ would he be willing to share some of the close-up photos he may have taken of his modifications ?
&
E/ can you link this thread to him so he can see where and what we are discussing, it would make life so easy if he joined up too

Other option if you have a mylar sail is to talk to your local signwriter, as vinyl lettering sticks ok on mylar. So could be a option and if your putting it on yourself, it comes spaced (by peel of top tape) making it easier to put on than sailmaker sticky back.

Just a comment on price for an updated mast for a square top sail.

This is a ball park figure; The same size mast with internal reinforcing currently stands at approximately $850-900 dollars.(a discount would be probable if bought in bulk ).

this would require a commitment from the Mossie association or enough members willing to go down that parth as a new batch would have to be made.

The second option would be to change the building restriction rules to allow a deeper mast section to be adopted. This I presume would take some time to happen. Having to be proposed at the AGM.And someone who can test out a new rig that can be adopted.

One of the most common sections that would be suitable is 110 deep and sixty seven wide. With a 1.9mm wall.(used on some nacras) I haven't asked the price of this section but it safe to presume that it would a couple of hundred less than the other option.

Projecting into the future, if this upgrade did go ahead today the initial take-up would be minimal but in time second hand sails and masts may become available to those that don't want the larger outlay of a new rig.

There are other issues that others may want bring up but that is enough now from me.
Dave 1724

Thanks Dave appreciate the info, but just for a matter of interest, current Mossie mast has a 1.6mm wall, so obviously the Nacra option would be considerably heavier. Any idea of what the wall thickness of the (Maricat) reinforced mast is?

Hi Gary.
Are you sure about that wall thickness. The reason I ask is that I recently bought a new mast from the association stock and the wall thickness is 2mm.
This mast was one of the batch that Matt Stone brought up here with him.
Dave

Ok Dave,

i've been back out with the digital vernier calipers (not engineering quality) admittedly I was working from memory, a dangerous passtime at my age , but that was my recollection, from when I did a lot of measuring when we had the thin web ones.

The three off cuts I found from different masts, including non anodised section, all measured between 1.6 to 1.8 mm.

I've just done a recheck of the wall thickness measurement and there is a slight variation on the offcut that I have.

the vernier callipers that I have suggest a fly#%@t over 2mm and measured against a ruler at just under 2mm.
Dave

but the other option we're forgetting & that's fairly cheap is.....




This makes it very affordable in comparision to an entire new section ....

This means the association isn't left holding a bag full of mast sections .... and we keep new masts affordable at the same time

The mast regulations can basically stay as they are......

The smaller section remains a lightweight user friendly mast ....

I don't think I could right a boat with a heavier duty or larger section mast .... am I alone ???? ...



Without seeing Kevin's forward facing diamond setup, I'm sure we have enough collective brain power to design a simple enough unit ourselves to overcome the stiffness issues with the square-top sail on current section even with its size limitations.....

now why didn't I think of that.....


can someone post up the size of a single letter ... EG: the 'M' would be the largest "box dimension" I'd need to get the vinyl cuts done.

Pirate you forgot one important part in your quote from South Africa.

"The diamond does interfere with jib when tacking - not badly, but crew needs to help sheets through.
The mast is stiff enough between foot and hound, but bends a lot above the hound.

In medium wind, I can't get enough leech tension - I sheet in harder to close the leech, the mast bends, sail flattens and leech opens again.
Creases start forming - use a bit of Cunningham - mast bends and leech opens............."

Admittedly he said he's still working on it but, forward facing diamonds or **** perches have been tried on a number of classes masts over the years and most don't have them now. It's a very hard thing to get to work properly, particularly as a smooth flexible all round set up and adds alot of rig tuning complexity, many will want to set up a system that is adjustable on the water, adding further complexity.

Just my opinion, but I am not keen on a third diamond.

Hi Ross,

these are the only restrictions on masts,

11 MAST
11.1 The mast shall be made of an extruded aluminium alloy.
11.2 The maximum height of the top of the mast including all permanent fittings shall not be greater than 7360 mm above the top of the main beam.
11.3 The forestay attachment point shall be 5280 mm ± 100 mm from the top of the main beam. If more than one potential forestay

attachment point is provided then all such points shall fall within the measurement tolerance.
11.4 Section size: Width 59 mm min; 63 mm max. Depth 86 mm min; 91 mm max.
11.5 Tapered mast permitted, but when used tapering shall only be above the 5180 mm mark.
11.6 Mast rotation control must be fitted

So internal ribs are no problem, as long as external dimensions fit sizes above, which are easily checked.

Hi Gary I should have said "not legal at the time" the rules have been relaxed since.

Ross

Ladies and Gents,

I can see from this thread that there is a lot of interest in this idea, and I know other people who have approached me privately about setting up their own square top as an experiment.

Being unfamiliar with the internal workings of the association, can we request it gets bought up at the next committee meeting for investigation? I am thinking this will take a few years to develop properly if we decide to go ahead, but would like to see a National approach to this to reduce individual costs and duplication.

Again, I think the Arrows did this pretty well and are happy with the end result, so happy to learn from others mistakes. How was the spinnaker introduced and accepted and can we follow the same process?

Luke

Your right Luke.

Through the power of the association and a co-ordinated and methodical approach, most of the foreseeable issue/development problems can be managed to transition to an updated rig.

Maybe a feedback process for members to provide constructive input into the development process.
Dave

hi Luke, have a read of the national assoc. constitution which details how you put a motion forward in regards to changes to building regs/class rules.

I also agree with Gary with the comments on a third diamond i also am not keen on a forward diamond and i can see it will cause quite a problem with the sloop boats and jibs. I can see quite a few jibs being damaged due to it. (although that would be good for buisness)

Gents,

See below the last reply from Kevin at the end of the questions:

A/ if he's modified the jib as yet and if so to what dimensions he went to ? Still work in progress.
B/ If the jib is unchanged, does he plan a re-cut in the future to suit the square top ? Yes we do – but only once mast stiffness issues are sorted (hound hight might change)
C/ if there is a website that has the Sth African mosquito rules and regulations ? Not at the moment.
D/ would he be willing to share some of the close-up photos he may have taken of his modifications ? Of course – I will put a few pics together and post them on the forum.
&
E/ can you link this thread to him so he can see where and what we are discussing, it would make life so easy if he joined up too. Will do!


Hopefully Kevin will join us on the forum soon.
Luke

Hi all,

I am no engineer, but I think I could stiffen the mast internally, with a round tube that would not add very much weight.

No Turbulence

1774

sounds simple Ross, & here's the BUT !!!!

1/ as close as I can find 'size wise' that would be a neat fit is either 63mm diameter tube which is almost identicle to our mast sections external size, so it wont really fit in the front part of the curve that well or we could use the smaller 60mm tube which would be a neat fit......

2/ the 60mm tube is only available in a 2mm wall thickness so STIFF it would be for sure..... and heavy too !!!

3/ the tubes we could use are only available in 6.5 metre lengths unless we get a special order done and in a quantity....

4/ corrosion of the lapped alloys would be an issue over a period of time, more so for those of us that enjoy the swell and the salt !!!
Anodising would suit here but its all additional costs again...




In all reality it would be simpler to buy a 2nd mast and cut off the bolt-rope part .... squish it down a bit and insert that onto your mast, you'd gain stiffness in a big way for realitive low cost in comparision to trying to retro fit existing tubes etc and get a neat fit.











the truth of it all is we have a serious choice to make, we can upgrade to a larger alloy section such as the (example only) Tempospars model TS104 (104X73) clicky for picy

this section is "close" to what we have now all be it ever so slightly bigger....
Or we go to a much larger section as others have indicated....


Long term says we should probably even be considering the possibility of a carbon-fibre mast in the not to distant future, reason being..... I've already seen mention of the likelihood of alloy extrusion companies deleting many of their 'marine products' as the modern boats turn to the space-age materials for both strength and lightweight materials... If the alloy companies are thinking this way now then where will we be in a few years time....... that creek and looking for the paddle !!!!

Various other classes have already started the steps down this path, inparticular the smaller monohullthingies as their traditional sections have been dropped..... Tasers for example started the steps about 3 years ago..... taser forum discussion on carbon


Although we aren't at that point yet it has to be part of the development we should start considering now for the future, it would be a neat trick to adopt a mast section size now and have a carbon alternative that's almost identical to upgrade to when or if the call is made.....

I don't think we are quite ready for the cost of a carbon mast, as close as I can call it would be a ~$2000 commitment today, but in a few years time the costs would most likely come well down to an affordable range for most.



Questions....

1/ Hydra mast
a... is what size ?
b... and available from ??
c... is it that much stiffer to support the square top sail ???


2/ would superwing mast (eg-4.9 Tiapan superwing sloop mast) be an option ?
a... does anyone have a cost on one ?
b... is a winglet shape too modern for the mozzie ??
(I've seen 2nd hand Tiapan winglets selling for ~$550)

Hi Kingy.

Answer....

1/ Hudra mast
a...same size as mossie.
b...Brisbane cat centre. where else. Capral.
c...Same wall thickness.


Where I sail there are taipans and the mast that they use would be too large for the Mossie.

I do believe that the mast that is used on some Nacras is the best choice for an upgrade.( 110x67) Very similar weight and readily available. This section has already proven to support a square top sail.

Aluminium mast will be around for a long while to come. Cheaper and more durable than carbon.
Dave 1724

Hi All,
Niel Joiner and phillip WS have ordered special tube to and have currently have riveted up the front of the mast, Stiff yes, but very heavy. he only uses when sloop. We just have to watch the weight on the mast as the right ion moment will be wrong. in other terms the rig will be heavier than the hulls and will not the the bloody thing up after capsize.

The association already deals with carpal, will have a chat to them cos it may be the mossie section?

As a rigger myself tempo spars gets their mast from by looking at the pics are whale spars, shear line sections, keely marine supplies, and ozpars (where i work)
i do have all the info of the major mast building sections and info. ill have a looksy and see what i can come up with

Matt

Hi Kingy and all,

I was thinking 20-25 mm aluminium tube , with nylon spaces at the ends and maybe one in the middle, to stiffen the mast, no corrosion, little weight.
if we look out to future carbon might be the only type of mast we can get so maybe a square top sail and carbon mast is what we should be looking at.
Having said that,if we are only looking at changing the sail to attract new sailors, lets not forget there are still boats being built, we have continue to attract new blood,
I believe the best way to keep that momentum going is keep showing the great points of owning a Mosquito. like easy to move around on the beach, great to sail, with carry a range of crew weigh, can be sailed by almost any age, easy to rig (only needs one person). good fleets, very competitive in mixed fleets, great group of people that are willing to help, strong association, great website and this forum. so keep going to Regattas and show the strong points the class and get people on the boat and take them for a sail.(just my 2 cents worth)

No Turbulence
1774

As we move through the years the tech stuff gets significantly cheaper as the manafacturers chase new markets for their product, there is after all a very limited market place at the moment and once those sales are done the makers will need new customers to stay in business, its only a question of time before a carbon mast is going to be affordable for most.... when that will be exactly is anyones guess




Be interesting to see whats available in the 'off the shelf' product range, looking forward to the results of your "looksy"
One thing we haven't looked at yet is having our own dies made for a section we design purely for the class, on a visit to comalco many years back there was a heap of various shapes but none were available to be sold to the general public as other companies "owned" the dies, the dies weren't to be used for any other things except for their product and part of that agreement was that the dies never left comalco....
I have no idea as to how much a die would cost today





You'd need to attatch it in several spots along the length of the mast or the tube would simply remain straight as the mast section belly-danced around it during light loading, it would only help stiffen the mast section when the mast was bent enough to contact the tube and start bending the tube....
the other thing is the smaller tube sizes don't have much in the way of stiffness unless they are a heavy walled tube which sort of cancels out the weight issue a bit. What I was toying with was a 60mm tube with a 1mm wall thickness pressed into the mast section and then riveted on the sides of the mast say every 200mmm..... bloody stiff and reasonable weight wise, my only problem with the idea is the mast length compared to the off the shelf tubes, some tubes come in 6.5m lengths and others are only in 6m lengths.....





I think we need to consider the option of carbon as a future upgrade, as to when .. 2years ..5years ... 10 years from now, I don't know, but it would make sense to upgrade to an alloy mast now that is similar in size to whats currently available in the carbon world, one of the reasons I mentioned the 4.9tiapan superwing mast, I think we'll see more of these shapes in the future....
Its anyones guess as to what will be around in the future, for all we know right now the future mosquito may well be well beyond a square top sail and be using a wing like the current AC72's and with stays being made from carbon and trap wires from what dribbles from the butt of some rare Brazilian insect... or it will long be forgotten except by some dottering old fools at a retirement village on the moon






You hit the nail on the head Ross !!!

Having been absent from the sport for many years I was shocked that the mosquito was still around, I thought it would have long gone the way of the quick-cat and sol-cat which were on their way out when I sold my first mozzie.
To find out not only that they had survived but were being actively sailed in ever growing numbers was a complete and utter supprise, then to see the quality of the people sailing them both on the water and away from the boat was an even greater blessing..... add in the fact that there are multiple ways to sail a mozzie is a very rare thing for any class.

the ultimate recognition I've had since re-entering the sport was.......

you mosquito sailors are a rare breed, bloody tenacious lot to say the least


and I've heard that from a few people now

Interesting article on stiffening Paper Tiger masts on page 9 of their newsletter http://aptca.papertigercatamaran.org/media/newsletters/APT-16-online.pdf

Darryn

Thanks Darryn,

That is more or less what I was thinking, it would be interesting to see how much stiffer the mast is.

No Turbulence

1774

I sail with the largest fleet of paper tigers in oz, when we have days of over 20 knots it is not unusual to see one or two broken masts when we get back to the beach. looks like the lower portion of the mast just isnt up to the task.

that solution is in response to a lot of fed up sailors sick of replacing masts



I have read this exact same debate from the mosquito/cobra fraternity many times before. seems to come up every couple of years.

there was a heap of arguing over the taipan sail plan upgrade in 2009, in the end i don't think it hurt the class and most people where very happy with the changes.

Wow,

The Mast Stiffener on the paper tiger seems like a light option. If you used a carbon fibre section in there instead of aluminium it would be even lighter and stiffer whilst still being protected by the mast section. It the layers between it would also eliminate the corrosion. This was not something I even considered!

Would that still be within our current rules for masts too. Would also reduce the need for different sections.

Luke

A small spreader, about where the pulley for the kite halyard is, would surely do the job. It wouldn't interfere with anything else and would stiffen the top section about where required....or have I missed something?

Evening all,
"One thing we haven't looked at yet is having our own dies made for a section we design purely for the class,"

M.C.A.S.A. looked at getting our "own" dies a couple of years ago when there were rumours about the current mast section dies being worn out,destroyed, etc. For the number of masts we require it was prohibitably expensive. Plus the current die still exists.
The aviation industry is the biggest user of carbon, sailing is a very small customer by comparison. One of our guys came back to mosquitos from an A Class, when we went to the Portarlington Nationals we had a spare A class carbon mast with us, price 2nd hand $4000,mossie blank current section $270. I can't see the price of carbon masts coming anywhere near aluminium in the near future.
Cheers,
Roy.
Rebel Without a Clew 1770
we were tempted to slip in the carbon A mast for measuring, as you do!

Well it won't miss the jib is one of the problems .

How can it affect the jib if it's above the hounds? Have a look at a B14 rig. It all seems to work on them.

Cheers

If it's above the hounds it wouldn't be doing much good, and remember B14s dont have rotating masts.

Bob already did this with his Square top rig in 2001. His fore-diamond went a long way down the mast - below the boom I think. No good with a jib. He said it was an absolute pain to get the tension right. Very touchy.


I'm struggling to understand the point of re-inventing the Taipan rig for the Mosquito. It already exists. If we put that on the Mosquito then doesn't the Mosquito become completely redundant? What's the point? What then is the Mosquito's point of differentiation apart from old-fashioned looking bows?

As it is the boat has a hull shape that works very well (despite the classic look) and a rig that works extremely well across a wide range of conditions (despite the classic look). Its a combination that certainly annoys the hell out of most other modern cats when they race against us.

So what are we trying to achieve by changing it?


[With reference to an earlier post, no class rules have been relaxed since prior to the 1990's.]

now the circular argument is complete, I see you have not changed your tune in all these years Tim!

It could be argued that people want the taipan style without the price tag. cheap mossie hulls with an updated rig would work out cheaper than a taipan?

the smart move would be to adopt the taipan rig, plenty of good used taipan sails out there, and all the development work has been done for you.

Mozzie hulls are only cheap if you are looking at old second hand ones. There's no difference to the work and materials that go into a Mozzie hull than goes into a Taipan hull. With the Taipan hulls being built overseas THEY are the cheap option (or should be!).

My "tune", such as it is, hasn't changed because the square top question died when no-one supported Bob's rig and hasn't been raised since - until now. Don't think I'm against changing anything (there are class rules that have no impact on performance that I would change to modernise the boat but I know I would be wasting my breath suggesting them).

I'm just waiting for someone to come up with a proposal that will take the class forward (ie actually improve it). I've thought about it plenty and sure a square top will look real flash but no-one has figured out how to make it work as well as what we have now. Specifically a boat and rig that works well with any combination of cat, sloop and spinnaker.

not saying that is a bad tune Tim! putting the big head sail may turn it into a pig of a boat off the breeze on windy days. in certain conditions it very well be slower.

in other news the taipan moulds are coming back to Oz, the price of a new taipan is about to rise significantly!

apart from the obvious....
update an old look
slight performance gain
attract sailors from other classes
attract people to sailing

..... there really isn't an advantage !!!


The hard part is attracting people to the sport, the really hard part is to attract them to our class ....
For me I don't see we've addressed that well enough as yet to take the next step. We really could spend a lot of money to gain nothing in numbers but give a distinct advantage to certain boats to move ahead of the fleet with the upgrade..... sadly that's the A class line of thought, he with the fattest wallet wins, I for one cant afford to play that game and I doubt many of us here could or we'd already be on A's... the other side of it is when do we stop..... MK1, MK2, MK3......MK6, MK7, MK???


The whole idea from the start of this thread was to upgrade the look and in doing so hopefully get more mosquitos on the water .....


If we attack that idea at the basic core then we've missed quite a few obvious steps and we've jumped way ahead of where we should be looking.


We have the best part of several hundred mosquitos "out there", mostly they are older girls that only do club sailing with the occasional regatta with a couple of the local clubs, if..... and its a big IF, we could somehow attract them away from their home base and get them actively participating in the other events then we'd possibly see a numbers increase, a +65 class is something I belive is a very workable idea. Over the w/end I participated in a regatta at which there were 4 Mosquito's..... one was busy dueling with the A classes and Tiapans and giving them curry, Ross even took out the 2nd place overall (well done mate !!)
The other 3 mosquito's had some of the best racing I've ever encountered, it was that electric it caught the eye of several others that were enthralled at the tight racing we had, I'm not talking boat lengths and minutes I'm talking feet and seconds of very tight tactial racing, not only was it very gratifying to hear the respect we got from many others on how good the racing was but just the actual thought that we were noticed over the other boats that were way ahead

I would like to see a more active inclusion of the older boats into the competitive racing of today, the + 65 is good but we need to get it off the paper and get it active....
if we can get ~20 modern mozzies at a state tittle, if we had an active +65 group then how many more would have attended ????

from another thread.....

the key words here are
round up a few of the older boats to come and play
and yes I'm still kicking myself for not attending the tittle with a boat instead of the camera, bloody hindsight is a mongrel thing....



My Summary:



we are not going to gain lots of new sailors, we might get 1 or 2 if we're really lucky, lets face it, how many of you would go to the arrow class because they have a square top


we are not going to see new boats being built just because we have a new sail


we can strengthen the mast to cope with a square-top for a reasonable cost and without altering the current mast rules via a carbon tube insert.


we need the word MOSQUITO on the sail, this needs to be done for all new sails and be encouraged for existing sails too
I don't know how you 'enforce or encourage' that but I'm sure it can be done via the association ?????



We already have lots of Mosquitos out there and most of them are in the +65 range.










Don't get me wrong here, I'd love a square-top and a sexy carbon mast on both of my mozzies, it would look just so right parked on the beach along side the Tiapans and A'classes......

hang on...... I sail a mosquito..... aren't we way different ????

in other news the taipan moulds are coming back to Oz, the price of a new taipan is about to rise significantly!

Another misinformed comment.

So, how much will a set of Taipan hulls set us back? Tim has it right, the difference between building a Mosquito hull and Taipan hull is almost zip.

Its the rig that seperates the two, the mast is the major cost difference. I wouldn't be looking to change from the Mossie has now. The difference is easily $2000+ (mast only)

I recon I can get the tiapan mast cheap, depends on where your looking.
Simon. only one pair of diamonds and one set of spreaders, in the ruls, I was planning to put jumpers above the hounds, WRONG try again,

Idea hounds as high as they can go and put the trap wire attachment 1 meter above the hound so your weight controls the top? bob Wilson has this!

I was at the AHPC factory in January getting the grand tour, it was what Brett told us at the time, something may have changed in the last month or so.

the reasoning was the builder only wants to build them in batches, but so few taipans are being sold they cant get enough orders to make it viable. its not like the c2 or viper that have good demand for them.

if the moulds are here then a single boat can be built, the downside is the labour cost is a lot higher.

This isn't really the place to discuss it. If people want info contact me direct and I'll happily answer questions without encroaching on the Mossie Forum. We're still talking to builders, however, I can confidently say the cost of a set of Taipan Hulls will be less than $10K. Our rules require you to buy your mast and front beam from Goodall Design but everything else can be shopped around for like a new Mossie. So if you're willing shop around and assemble your own boat cost should be about $1-2K more than a new mozzie built the same way.

Sorry if I have prematurely let the cat out of the bag scarecrow.

It is a very open secret. We're keeping our members updated on the Taipan Forum, which anyone can visit.

for anyone looking for a link to the Tiapan Forum it's here



Interestingly enough it seems the Taipan sailors have a very similar situation to our own issue, how to draw new blood into the class.....

I spent some time reading through various threads on your forum and this particular one caught my eye and certainly needs to be brought to the attention of us mozzie sailors.....


CLICK ME => What could we do to improve the class ?



A very interesting read with 3 pages of some excellent ideas on how to lift the visibility of the class, we could ALL learn from some of the suggestions that have been listed.


One thing that did catch my eye was this little gem....

As I went through other threads I noticed several names I know to be ex-mozzie sailors from back when that have left the class for the Tiapan.....
It would appear that both classes have issues facing their future and the ability to draw on new blood seems to be a major issue for both boat types as it most likely is for others I've not listed (the Arrow springs to mind instantly and I'm sure there's many more), we probably need to be sharing the brain-storming ideas and develop a Strategy that assists both classes not only to survive in the long term but to gain a footing back in the sales of new boats and increase the numbers that compete

As you yourself said Chris,
"If sail numbers are anything to go by AHPC Goodall Design have sold more Vipers in 5 years than they did Taipans in almost 30,"
That's a serious blow not only to the Tiapan class and to us as well although probably not as directly..

From the Port Vincent thread....... and yes I asked Hack if I could copy it across




The PM I sent to Hack regarding his post went something like ......

On a rough calculation.....

we have had ~1800 odd mozzies in Australia

lets deduct 33% as written off long ago

lets take another 33% as un-sailable without major expense or rebuild..

that leaves ~600 boats that are scattered throughout Australia that in theory can be sailed with relatively minimal work or expense,

If we are looking to boost numbers up then surely that 600 need to be actively encouraged to get back n going again...

21 boats at a state tittle out of a possible 600, pardon my maths but that's like ~3%

if we encourage the +65 class of boat into the equation then we get the numbers without the sacrifice and costs.





As for a square-top..... if we continue with the logic you would have say the most likely people to go with the square-top are those that 'have to' for that performance gain (all be it un-proven at the moment), 'those' would be the ones competing at the titles, again this comes down to a minimal 3% of the numbers......


so are we really ready to make a major change to the rules and have an additional cost for ~3% of the class (remembering that the ~3% is only drawn from the maybe possible 600 surviving boats..... do your own maths on ~20 odd boats at a state title out of an original +1800 built which equals SFA in the percentage stakes !!!)











As I've suggested earlier there are other ways to update the boat and get mozzie sailors back on the water in numbers with some ease compared to adding the dramas of a new sail into the equasion.


I still fully belive these need to be addressed before we take on a new sail shape and I'm sure we can all come up with various ideas on how to go about it.

Ladies and Gents,

I have to dispute the thinking above. The numbers aren't really based on any facts and I think we have to be careful making a decision on them.

I also think we are getting off the topic a bit as to whether we want to look at square top sails.

In my experience, trying to invigorate a sport by getting existing competitors back into it, or poaching from other classes is a self defeating effort. As soon as you get a boat back on the water, another vessel is taken off, and for anyone you manage to get from another class you lose one. It also has the side effect that the boats get stuck in one generation and will eventually stop sailing due to age. If you look at it demographically, this is can be currently illustrated by the average age of our members and our the low percentage of sailors under 30.

I think the only way to get people in is in the front door when they are young so that the class can cope with natural attrition. In my mind the mozzie is perfect for this.

More so than the Hobie 16- the current youth development class, the mozzie is light for them to handle both on and off the shore, affordable, fast and exciting (particularly with the spinnaker) and a natural progression between mono slugs and F18s if they are so inclined. Think of the champions that have come up through Paper Tigers and Mozzies already.

My original reason for posing the topic was to see whether we should consider 'updating the look' of the mozzie as other classes have. I think from the previous posts that the mast and sail specifics are manageable and workable, and compared to the spinnaker this is a much smaller adjustment to the class.

As can be shown by the Arrows, pin top sails are still competitive and widely used in varying conditions, however Square tops are more in line with the modern classes and in my opinion make the mozzie look fantastic. Hopefully this look will encourage young sailors to get into the class and provide an affordable alternative to other ages wanting to get into cat sailing.

From sailors I have spoken to, there is a lot of interest within the class to explore this option, with some looking at rigging one and watching other classes progression.

So my question still remains, are Square top sails an option we want to explore over a period of time?

Luke
Beckit 1824

I based my loose maths on a simple thing........ observations of the sail numbers I see club racing on a regular basis

I haven't seen a boat number below 1000 since the Easter Regatta @ Lake Bolac last year, on that occasion it was sail number 99
(there's a photo in another thread of it)
If we used number 99 as the starting number then the percentages would have been on 20 boats over 1700.....

So I based my maths on numbers from around the 1000 mark to the current numbers of ~1800, making it ~700 boats, I rounded it down to ~600 as that worked better with the 1800 number and because I couldn't be stuffed dragging out the calculator it was close enough at a 1/3rd of the total build numbers.....

Even if we agreed that there were only 100 active boats and I take the proven number of ~20 at a tittle we are still only dealing with 20% that would under the pressure of competition have to at a sooner than later stage make the move to the square-top.

so we are making a major decision of a sail change and possible mast change for ~20% of a fleet number if we run with the 100 active sailors number.....
The reality is we don't know just how many there are, there is 4 older mozzies at my club that sail regularily, I pass 2 mozzies on a regular basis that are parked under the trees but every now and then one of them has moved, I see one more at a yacht club that hasn't moved for a couple of years but is still in good sailable nick..... all these mozzies are below the sail number of Twice Shy which is 1182

the only "modern" mozzie I see is 1740..... its in my shed undergoing a rebuild but will be out next season.


Until we actually research the active numbers we don't know what the exact percentage is.



For me its a change that seems for the minority at the moment and not really doing any favors for the majority........











With the discussion so far we have found some issues that we have managed to largely overcome on "paper", namely the mast stiffness issue, we may adopt a new mast specifically for the square-top or alternatively strengthen the existing mast size to cope..... both means have benefits over the current mast & both add an additional cost to existing boats.....

The sail itself is still unproven in my mind and until someone actualy parts with the hard earned dollars it will most likely remain untested and subsequently unproven......


however........ to answer your question directly........


yes its an option we definitely need to explore for the long term lifespan of the class


I still have my hand up for the testing process and I fully belive several sailors from differing orientations of the sport should be part of the overall testing of a square-top.....
It should be done at club level by the occasional weekender sailor as well as the classes top guns and the boats should equally include sloops / cats / spins on both the MK1 & MK2 along with the older girls (+65's) in both formats for a true and fair comparison for ALL mozzie sailors, not just the cashed up ones or class elite.

Once we have an idea of the numbers and the data to correspond, then and only then can we make an informed decision about the classes future.

firstly, if u want this to work with the the older boats, push them to a regatta with us. I have 5 others at my club and for years ive been trying to get them to come but they only want to sail at the club, there are 55 measured boats on the register so why we only get 35 at nationals? there are boats stored everywhere, we need them out and sailing. why do they hold them.... who knows its a good class not to get rid of the boat.

the clothing has been talked about with an online shop. with photos and all.

The 65+ was waved in the last 2 years as the amount of heavy boats has dropped big time in the last 5 years.

All Mossies should come to SAUNA SAIL and out doo the other classes. big winter event. we have had 24 one year.

Pirate....should sail your boat to get numbers up. Thanks for the photos but why didnt u sail the states? Sail = more fun more mossies on water.

I have been pushing mossies or a few years now habd have got a few into mossies. and still we p**s the other cats off cos we still beat them on a classic boat.

any inquires about the web site speak to Tim S, hes the web site guy.

Matt

So where are we on subject ?????

there's been a poll that didn't go well for the square-top sail,

but that shouldn't mean we just drop the ball and leave it for a few more years or until someone else takes it up again.



I still think we should be looking into it for a future useage at some stage .....


So here's an "out there" idea.


How would we go if we could convince the association to 'pay' for a single square-top sail, mosquito logo and the word mosquito only on the sail and NO number.....
The sail could then be made available to association members for say a "bond" of $300 deposit and you get back $200 once the sail is returned. The association takes the $100 as a subsudity on the initial cost of the sail thus making it affordable for the association and its members.

A set time period of say ~4 weeks per "hire" would allow plenty of member testing and feed back to the association or here on the forum....
As a member of a club that runs 4 mosquito's on a regular basis then that $100 'cost could be split 4 ways making it even more affordable and having a greater feedback....

In this way we could get 'testing' done over a year or 2 and have results and feedback from all sorts of boats from older heavier girls to the superlight carbon rockets & on all sorts of water bodies be they open ocean , bay or lake sailing, & most importantly, with all the different sailors be they old farts like me or the newbie and everyone in-between.

just thinking out-loud here.... or should I just drop it like it has been
?

Would you fund it out of your pocket? $2k for the sail, freight, repairs, time to administer it, liability insurance and provision for theft/replacement due to wear. All that has to be covered by $25/week.
To make it viable you would have to charge $100/day the sail isn't at home base, minimum 2 day hire, customer pays the freight.

If you believe the idea is such a winner back it yourself, the class has a track record of adopting ideas which just make sense. The spinnaker was funded and developed this way by Tim Sheppard, others where involved I believe but he made it happen.
Good Luck,
Darryn

I think the above is right, as well...the second line in regard to the poll really has answered the question.


I been watching out of interest, the lack of support is fairly evident.

I really dont understand the need or desire to change the rig, the class is healthy and the rig looks fine. The signage on some of the sails looks great.

In saying that, I have a a class section Taipan mast fully rigged for sale...haha.

Kingy,

as discussed previously, first the mast needs to be sorted (consensus is current mast will not support a modern looking square top efficently). No point in making a sail when you don't know what mast it will be used on.

But my personal opinion is that the current rig is so efficent across a broad spectrum of conditions that it would take years to get a square top to work as well, never mind better across the range of conditions.

If anybody is committed enough to make it happen, all power to them.

To give an idea of commitment shown in the past. The development of the spinnaker for the Mossie, started with trial of furling gennakers (didn't work) and then spinnakers. At least 3 spinnakers where trialed before settling on what we have today and it took place over about 3 years. Tim did most of this out of his own pocket. I'm sorry but I think this is the sort of commitment that would be neccessary to see another change in what is a succesful competitive class, for me personaly I think "if it aint broke don't fix it".

Strangely enough a few people I have spoken to have been getting alternate sections and are looking at sail cuts. I will be interested to see what they come up with and how effective are some of the results.

Luke

Luke, you have PM.

I was talking with Steven Brewin the other day and he mentioned he had built a square top sail for a Cobra, he was a bit concened about how the mast would cope.

They are sleaving the inside of the mast from the hounds

To heavy if we sleave them

I spoke to the Cobra sailor that's got that Brewin square top and they have come up with a light weight and innovative way to support the mast. He'll know soon enough if it works

it will be interesting to see how the Cobra goes, where will it be sailing, could be worth a drive.

Rivoli Bay South Aus, you could go to their South Aus v's Vics cat challenge regatta on 1st and 2nd of November and sail against it, normally they get a reasonable number of Mozzys there. All cats off same start none of the split fleet bs

Don't a lot of the boats who sail sloop already sleeve them? I remember Phil WSs mast was sleeved when it broke at he states.

Luke

no, phillip sleeved his and very heavy section, he put a smaller mast section that fitted inside, and the other is neil with a 54mm alloy tube riveted inside up the front of the mast, does work but again very heavy section,

So in reality....

we're using a mast section that even the current legal sail shape/design loads up that section that take it to its uppermost limits of strength and durability.....


if its not the case then why are some people adding internal stiffeners....



50years ago the section probably coped well.... but with far lighter boats and major improvements in sail designs and more modern materials all working off that mast section, perhaps its way past that time we upgraded the section




I guess the next question is how common are mast failures

The paper tigers have recently developed an interesting internal sleeve design. You can see it in one of the recent association magazines, which are on the association website. It's neat and inexpensive.

Because...

About 9 or 10 years ago we had a batch of masts supplied which came out lighter than they had before. Apparently there are tolerances that come in to play when masts are extruded and on that occasion they came out with thin walls and a very thin web. These masts all broke when used with the sloop rig unless they were sleeved. They worked fine for cat rigs (including with spinnaker).

Batches of masts made before and since do not need to be sleeved to make them strong enough.

Other than the lightweight masts, I can't think of an instance of a mast failing. Broken masts are nearly always caused by failure of diamond stays, sidestays, rotation levers, or corrosion.

I'm still using one of the LIGHT sections, I sail virtually every weekend of the season, in all conditions, Cat rigged with kite, and my lanky 100kg hanging off the wire. it's still in one piece