Heating your workspace, ideas?

For our Blade F16 project we need some ideas. We are working in my garage, and there is just the usual "holes in the wall" and under the garage port for ventilation. Last winter we used some 200W bulbs directly over the hull panels to heat them while the epoxy set. It worked, but I was not impressed with it. The garage is not insulated very well, so we need some KWs from our heatsource.

A fellow builder here in Norway use a paraffine/diesel heater for his workspace. I have been thinking about a natural gas heater. Using electricity is not very economic anymore..

What do people use, and what kind of precautions do we need to take with the different options? Risk of fire is something I denfiately want to minimize!

Rolf,
first I would think about proper thermal insulation. No point in heating the back yard too. Second I would use water as a transport medium. Natural gas burners are very good, if you have a gas pipe near you. A gas burning powerplant can provide all the hot water and heating you need for your home. The unit is very small - aprox. 45x60x90 cm, you will need to use radiators in all the rooms. But ... is there a natural gas network there ?

Just remember one thing, the wood dust is explosive and can ignite directly if in contact with a surface hot enough!!!

I can buy natural gas on 6 and 12liter tanks, but no natural gas network (we export 99.9% of it). I would have to install a chimney/exhaust and run some plumbing and that sounds like an extreme undertaking for one or two winters, at most three winters.
Insulation will happen as best we can.

So what do you use in your workshop by the water Gato? Or dont you use it during winter (it is a lovely workshop, so that would be a pity).

I have been using a diesel heater in my work space. And I have an unheated room for cutting wood and anything else that
makes dust. I will be using the same heater to heat an oven that is built around the mold to bring the temp. up to 55C.
Also I have a small electric heated in a foam box to keep the epoxy resin at about 20C.
A note about my weather conditions, it very rarely goes below, -5C where I live.

Perhaps a diesel or natural gas heater in one room and some piping with a fan leading the heat to the "sanding and cutting" room?

My workshop close from the water is not used for wood or epoxy work when the outside temp drops below 15 deg C. Just to heat when working is causing a lot of problems with humidity.
When working wood or epoxy you need a more or less constant temp and humidity to avoid problems. As you can see on my blog, I was working in the living room <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" /> when doing the DS12.
I also have possibilities to use the workshop at my work.

Increasing the temperature in the workshop while gluing and especially when glassing is a big no-no. Outgassing is not pretty either <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
I think we can have pretty stable temperature when gluing/glassing as long as the heater runs. This workshop is our only alternative unfortunately.

G'day Rolf it doesnt get as cold here as you get but we get down to zero overnight at times. I've found that this setup of 4 x 500w halogen lights gives me good working light and lifts the local working space temperature at a controlable rate by putting the lights closer if need be. I took this photo today and it got down to minus 5 last night outside but you can feel the whole shed is warmer. The downside apart from power cost is that when you turn these lights off after a few days continuous use, most of the globes melt.
regards

That was what we used last winter. Apart from needing cleaning and not directly heating parts in the shade it worked quite well. This winter we want to heat the whole room, as we are working on both sides of the room (1 car garage). We also noticed how the lightbulbs did not last very long, did not think about them melting.

I am becoming paranoid with regards to the power company, so I would prefer to not use electricity for heating. 2000W is pretty expensive considering how we will be working most of the winter. Thanks for the tip anyway!

What boat is that in the picture?

Hi Rolf,
My shop is a detached building and has insulated walls and roof. I use an electric baseboard unit of about 2.5 KW. These are cheap, easy to install, and about as safe as you can get. On the coldest nights it will keep the shop at 50 DegF (0 - 10 outside). To supplement this I also have a propane unit that screws directly into the top of a 20 lb. propane tank.
One thing to keep in mind is that a 5 gallon bucket or 55 gallon drum of resin takes forever to reach ambient temperature when you turn on the heat in a cold shop. I used to try saving money by keeping the shop cold until it was time to do a layup but this turned out to be not very practical. Then, I tried hiding containers of resin in odd corners of the house and my wife got really pissed at me.

Kevin

Thanks Kevin.

I have a heat box for resin, a simple 60W bulb in a box with the resin. This keeps the temperature of the resin surprisingly stable.

The propane unit you use, is there any open flame there? I would not be comfortable with open flame in my workshop, and a thermostat would be nice. Preferably not running on electricity for its main energy consumption <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
I know I am asking for something which might not be out there.. Sorry.

Thats a 14ft Arrow and the pink one on the ground is an 11ft Arafura Cadet, I just picked up 2 of each to get junior cat sailing going here but they all need something done.
regards

Sounds like you need a catalytic heater.
CAT Heater

I have been looking around for catalytic heaters here, but no success. Do you have any tips for what kind of suppliers would stock these?

I also use the lights I saw in a previous post. I have moved my boat up stairs in the warehouse. It is always warmer up there.

Hmm, this may take a bit more looking. I was thinking that the Coleman camping products may work but they include this warning in their documentation:
"During operation, this product can be a source of
ignition.Never use the catalytic heater in spaces that
contain or may contain volatile or airborne combustibles,
or products such as gasoline, solvents, paint thinner,
dust particles or unknown chemicals"

I was wondering if the Coleman type products were the same as the the other catalytic products that keep the process below auto-ignition temperatures.

I checked for a Norway rep for the product I linked earlier. It turns out, he is in Canada.

CCI Thermal Technologies Inc.
2721 Plymouth Drive
Oakville, ON L6H 5R5

Contact: K.B. Ting, Vice President - International Sales
Phone: 905.829.4422
Fax: 905.829.4430
Toll Free: 1.800.410.3131
E-mail: kbting@ccithermal.com

Last night was fun. We winterized the workshop. 0 to 3 deg C last night, and this morning it was still 10degC in the workshop. That was pretty good concidering that we did not have a heatsource active in the garage. Looks like something out of NASA, dont it

In reality it is just some cardboard and aluminium foil, rubber gaskets on the port to the workshop etc. So far it seems to work well, and lighting was also improved. At least we think so. But what do a couple of tin-heads know

The heaters designed for workshops that use the waste oil from your local car or truck garage are the biz, steady heat and relatively free from fumes smells etc, downside they are a high initial cost but if you can source the oil for nothing then payback is quick.

I've had far too many diesel space heaters that you end up smelling and exhaling breath that smells of oil fumes, doesn't half kill the old passion sessions with the better half, straight off.

The LPG Green House heaters which are thermostatically controlled, if your workshop is large, are really good, downside is they do end up putting large amounts of condensation into your workshop which is not great for epoxy.

The best workshop heater I've had was a wood burner, get a good quality one and you can shut them down enough that they will still light the next day, you don't need a very big unit either as they are better to be run at mid heat than to control them down to far where they fume and "oil" up the flues from lack of heat.

We went for an electric heater instead. One similar to this one:



It have relatively low surface temperature, a good fan, overheating protection (cuts power), easy to inspect and can be cleaned with pressurized air. We got it just this weekend and it seems to do the trick. Was very cheap as well. Just GBP20.

We also found a cheap "industrial" vacum cleaner, so now we can clean up the mess from the sanding before we turn on the heat and work with epoxy.

I need a larger workshop though! Hope to be able to build a boathouse/workshop just by the sea in some years.

Electricity is a bit expensive in the UK to heat for long periods, shock me, how much is 1 kw in Norway ?

In winter one kwh is about NOK1,- or GBP0.093
Not cheap, which is why will run the heater before we glass/glue for 12 hours (thermostat of course), and then turn down the thermostat somewhat. No heating between epoxy sessions, which means the temperature will drop down to about 10degs with our current insulation.

In winter even with my worklights the resin was really slow to go off so I purchased a gas patio heater and made a smaller enclosure in the shed out of poly tarp. I did the Nacra keels this week in direct sunlight and it went off too quick. Is it practical to heat from the inside of the hulls to say 18 degrees and then epoxy with the lights giving some lift in external temp or is this risking the integredy of the hulls.
regards

If you are glassing, be careful with outgassing from the wood (if you are building in wood). Outgassing results in a lot of tiny bubbles in the laminate.

We wanted a fan to circulate the air so we get an even temperature at all heights in the workshop. We thought about IR heaters, patio heaters etc, but in the end the workspace heater was our best solution. Tested it over the weekend and it looks like our insulation work combined with this even is the thing.
Looks like you have something similar in your workshop. The little yellow thing at the front of the hulls looks like an electric fan heater. IP44 standard?

If you heated the interior of the hull to 20 degrees then got the area around it to a similar temp with the heat lights would that prevent outgassing.
The little yellow thing is the patio gas heater with a built in electric blower so that it blows the heat around the workshop. I had to ventilate the workshop after using the resin then turned it on. Sort of the Darwin theory you know you've ventilated enough if you dont blow up.

be careful doing that jeff

One thing that is surprising me a bit is the fact that you don’t seems to worry about the humidity.
To obtain a good result the wood should be kept as dry as possible and that will not be the case if storing it in a place that is not permanently heated. It’s no use to seal wet wood with epoxy.

In my case the humidity in the workshop is around 35%. At least it was the last time I checked. I have a hygrometer in the workshop together with the thermometer. The wood dries quickly when cut into planks/strips.
I dont think the humidity really changes a lot with cyclic heating, but you increase the capability of the air to hold humidity when you raise the temperature. Unless you bring humidity into the shop and the workshop is dry, I dont think it is a problem.

I dont let any moisture form in the shed and I ensure everythings perfectly dry before I work on it by preheating the shed for a few days before and keeping the heat going. I was just trying to tap Rolfs experience to see if there was a way to reduce the heating bill.
Ready you serial lurker its good you've come out of the closet, I am carefull I always cringe and close my eyes when I turn the heater on.
regards

Tap my experience.. Insulate, reflective layer and stop that pesky ventilation from sucking the heat out. Wear protective gear when working!!

Jeff,
Outgassing is caused by the temp of the timber increasing after the resin is applied. The air inside expands and the extra volume of the expanded air tries to escape.
You can get outgassing just by the day getting warmer if this translates to the temp inside the workshop and hence your timber also increasing in temp.
When I want really good penetration of resin into timber I will deliberately heat the timber and apply the resin and then remove the heat source. Then the opposite to outgassing occurrs. The air in the timber contracts and draws the resin in.
If I was going to do a big laminate job over timber I would wait until the hottest part of the day where I knew the temp would not increase further but fall and then do it. Just a small precaution I would be working on timber whose temp is falling or going to fall. Probably something more applicable to building a cedar strip craft in an outside shelter where the temp can change quite a bit during the course of the day.
I am quite fortunate these days because the temp in my workshop varies very little no matter what happens outside.

Thanks Phill thats a great tip, at this time of year I could leave the hulls outside from 9am in the sun, take it inside really warm at 12pm, finish the glass work at 3pm and let it all cool down.
That also makes sense in winter for me to heat the piece being worked on from the inside then glass it.
I'd love to find sheets of poly shaped the same as corrugated iron, that I could put on the roof of the shed in winter. That would absorb the winter sun, heat up the shed during the day and slow down heat release at night.
regards