Righting Line for Blade

Is there any consensus on righting line rigging for the Blade?
Where attached, stored, deployed? How long a line?
At this time, I just have a 3/8" line stuffed in the forward tramp pocket. That will probably take to long to deploy.
Thanks

I've got a 10mm line, about 5m long, I think. I store it in the tramp pocket, and on the first capsize of the day tie it round the dolphin striker and then chuck it over the top hull.

I used to leave it tied round the dolphin striker, but the bowlines kept undoing themselves as they got pounded by the waves. I lost one rope this way.

I'm sure you could go thinner for weight reasons, but I'm not a big fan of putting fine lines over the hulls and then putting all my weight on them.

Paul

I use an 8mm line, about 4m long, tied AND TAPED around the dolphin striker. The key thing is, it's kept in a pocket that closes with velcro, and it's on the UNDERSIDE of my trampoline just behind the main beam. It's protected from wave bashing by the mainbeam itself and is instantly and easily accessible once the boat's gone over.

It also doesn't take long to stuff the line back in once the boat's 'pointy stick up'.

You can also attach a couple of padeyes to the front crossbeam one each side for a 8mm line (non-abrasive) with a bead on each end and a small block at the rear center of the tramp for a bungee to hold the line in place. I’ve seen several Taipans set-up this way and for the lighter platforms its working well and saves time. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

That is actually a very neat trick. We must add this one to the open-source F16 design.

Wouter

Any pictures of that setup? I am interested to see how it looks.

JJD,
If you are new to the boat and expect to be using the line a little its good to have one that is quick to use.

I use 8mm silver rope. A real cheap synthetic rope that to me seems a bit like flax. It does not seem to absorb water. I tie a knot in it every 12 or 18 inches.
Attached it to either each side of the front beam by popping on saddles undeneath. So the line goes from one side to near the centre of the back beam and then to the other side in the shape of a "V".
This line is kept tight by a 6mm shock chord that goes from the middle of the righting line to a pulley in the middle of the rear beam and forward to the striker post.

This will get you up the quickest because the line is continuous you can grab the lower section and pull in the slack and use it to pull yourself up onto the hull.

So when righting the boat you put the line under your trap hook to take the load.The knots stop the line from slipping when they hit your trap hook.
Lower arm holds up some tension and upper arm pulls in slack to move up to the next knot as the boat starts to come up keeping you at the optimum angle and not lying in the water.
If you need more weight outwards you can put the uper arm out past your head and bounce a little to get the thing moving.
Another way is same type of rope with knots but two of them. Going from front to rear beam with two pulleys and shock cords going forward to the saddle the rope is attached to each side. You have pretty good rear beam clearance on the Blade so you don't drag the "V" line in the water at all but some people just rather two lines.

Anyway there is often more than one good sollution to any given problem and over the years these have worked well for me, on a number of different boats, including the Blade.

Hope this helps.

Regards,
Phill

OK here is what it looks like.. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Red line is bungee - white/blue line is the righting line.

Padeye and rope bead front beam. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

AHA! sweet looking system. I like it. Thanks for sharing.

Thanks for the quick responses guys.
I appreciate all the help and advice I get.
Saw a similar setup to these on a local A cat but wasn't sure it would adapt to a Blade.
I'll try it.with Phill's knots.
John D.

John,

I have the same system as Buccaneer. I works great but would be a pain with the periodic knots Phill uses because they will catch on the bungeed ring.

Eric,
In my system there is no bungee ring with the knots.
Not needed as the bungee is not supposed to slide along the line. It is a bungee and stretches. In the beginning I had it without knots but found it much better with them.

Regards,
Phill

I have a slight vairation to this setup.
The bungee and the A section of rope is the same but my rope doesn't end at the front beam with a bead, it continues to the rear beam on both sides hugging the hull before its TIED OFF. You can then grab the line anywhere between the front and rear beam on the raised hull to manover your wieght to the best angles required and for 2 up there is room for both to grab the line.

Good point maybe good for doubles but this will also move your balance point considerably more towards the aft. For solo righting with the Taipan system wrap the line with bead around your trap hook twice sit back and she'll normally come over first try. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Does pulling from the upper beam rather than throwing the line over the hull produce less righting force?

No, but it will increase the amount of tension on the rope needed to lower your body to any given angle. So, if you use knots and your trapeze hook, it's probably not a big issue. If you're trying to hold the rope by hand, you may find that you can't get your body as low.

Paul

What sort of crew weight per platform weight ratio is needed to get the boat on its feet from either a complete turtle or floating on its side?

I generally go with getting on trap while on the beach : if the hull lifts, it will come up if turtled. But there was a post detailing a method where all the weight is shifted to one corner, sinking it and allowing the opposing end to come up.

I've never had any trouble getting the Blade back up on my own, and I'm about 85kg. I've only ever capsized the Blade in a fairly decent wind, and I think I'd have trouble in very light wind.

I've not turtled the Blade, but I've had done with other boats. The only technique I know for righting (without a powerboat) is to sit on very back of the leeward hull, so that the bow of the windward hull lifts. The boat will (eventually) end up on its side.

Paul

Paul you and me are the same weight. If there is no wind, do not plan on bringing your blade up singlehanded. Been there done that too many times.

OK, to continue this discussion ...
Yesterday I was out singlehanding my Blade and managed to capsize it twice, neither time was intentional. Breeze was beginning to die off from there being enough to work up some whitecaps. After the boat went over, I was able to let out the mainsheet and traveller.
Tied to the trampoline was a tramp bag with a cushion, collapsible paddle, two 12oz softdrinks and two 16 oz water bottles. So maybe 5 lbs of gear on the boat working against me. I am 5'6" and about 172 lbs before wetsuit, jacket and harness.
Try as I might, I could not get the Blade up by myself using the techniques mentioned above.
Also couldn't get the boat to go head to wind. Best I could do by going all the way to to the spinnaker bridle and forcing down the bow was about 45 degrees to wind. As soon as I went anywhere near the main beam, the boat just went back to 90 degrees to wind. First rescuer took a line to lee and gave a little tug, effective but the boat took off like a scared mackrel when it touched down. I managed to stay connected and get back on with difficulty. The second time I needed assistance, the lifeguard rescue boat came to my help. They had a little more experrience than my first helper. They picked up the end of the mast with a boathook to the spin halyard pigtail and backed off to lee until my boat was head to wind. The guy just had to add a little more lift to get the mast climbing and the boat came over again. It was a lot easier to climb on.
I don't know how much more weight I'm going to need to get the mast out of the water by myself.
Can someone describe techniques that will work?
Thanks
John, learning the hard way

John,

I weigh the same as you and find that I need the ATRS to effectively right my boat.

ATRS-Alabama Trash Righting System

This techique was/is made famous by Tom Shannon and effectively is a 30 gallon trash bag that you keep in your tramp pouch. When capsized throw your righting line over the hull (helps if you have a loop in the line that you can connect to your trapeze harness), then fill the bag with a couple of gallons of water (not too much or it will burst bring this up into your lap and hike out as normal...voila' you'll right your boat.

Terry

Robi is your weight and 3 or 4 inches taller. He has difficulty righting. Tom and Terry are both around 6' tall and the ATRS works for them. I'm 5' 8" 225 lbs. and can right unaided, without too much difficulty.

I'm guessing you will save yourself a lot of trouble by buying one of Rick White's righting poles. Now that I'm thinking about it, I may buy one for myself.

I went through your difficulties too. One thing I learned about having outside assistance is that another option is to use them to keep the boat head to wind. One of my capsizes was while crewed. The crew stayed in the water and held onto the bow. I was surprised how quickly the boat popped up with them holding it into the wind. Other benefits. The boat is righted head to wind (no scared mackerel effect). The outside assistance isn't trying to maneuver around your masthead and all the lines and rigging there. So a line from a bow to your rescue boat should be quite effective.
You didn't mention your downhaul. It needs to be eased right off to destroy the sails aerodynamic shape. Otherwise any airflow is pulling it towards the water.
As mentioned you will need a knot or small loop on the righting line for your trapeze hook. This needs to be lower to the water than you probably think. Hanging from your arms, you probably aren't getting past the 45 degree angle. As the boat starts up you can reach up and grab the dolphin striker.

To add to the discussion if you hang by your arms, by the time you bring the boat up you will be exhausted and get yourself onto the boat will be another workout.

Always use the harness hook.

As mentioned many times before, you can use a sea anchor (drag chute) off the bow to keep the boat heading into the wind. If there is enough wind you can use the sail to basically "water start" like a windsurfer rig.

Regards,
Bob

It has been said earlier, but the downhaul really needs to be let of (almost) completely of the top of the mast and sail will hook the water or pull the mast down aerodynamically when the tip clears the surface.

Also the traveller cat needs to be completely down towards the leeward hull and the mainsheet then needs to be run out as far as possible with the sheet left. In some cases it helps to untie the travellerline from the mainsheet and run them both out totally. If there is only a little shape in the sail then righting her can quickly become very hard. Been there, done that.

Most people say they do these things but often they don't do enough of it.

For some reason my boat never lays on its ear with the mast pointing in the wrong directions. It always points with its mast to the wind or pendendicular to the wind. Maybe that has something to do with the Taipan hullshape.

I do know that ones in waves it took very long to rotate around. I learned on other boats to then stand on the bows with the righting line in on hand (loosely). The boat will now turn around. When you think you are there where you want to be then walk back to the middle if the hulls and lower yourself on the righting line. This last action only takes 2 seconds, to quick for the boat to turn back.

Good luck

Wouter

I heard a rumor in this respect that the Auzzies had started to water start from a capsize. I sort of understood the principles but could never achieve any sucess trying to right my Cat by sail out of a capsize, maybe because I didn't deploy a sea anchor? If that's what it takes to water start I'll stick to the righting line.

The water start process may be more along the lines of clambering onto the boat as she is coming down onto her feet. Somehow or other, instead of falling into the water as it comes up, you hoist yourself onto the tramp. With spinnaker halyards and self-tacking jibs I don't see this as a simple proposition.
Picture the monohull sailors that can capsize/right their boats without ever touching the water.

When two up one person can sit on the leeward hull and swivel onto the tramp as the luff hull is coming down, this isn't to difficult if the timing is right. But I'm sure there must be a way of (moving) a Cat in a certain manner to help get her upright quicker? There again in light winds in zero waves you'll always be struggling unless you're 6'0" tall and 196lbs.

5'9" and 150 lbs without sailing gear. ATRS works ok in waves and some wind. Boat postion relative to the wind is very important (after traveller, mainsheet, downhaul). I am also thinking abt the righting pole. If I know the conditions beforehand, I plan on more 2-up sailing on 2007.

I had an I-17R that I couldn't right unaided. I put an expensive carbon righting pole on it. One day I was righting and lost control of my fore-aft weight distribution: the pole got pinched against the dolphin striker and immediately snapped. I then went with one of those Murrays water righting bags and liked it better.

Then I got an old A-class and it became a moot point.

Geoff,

You couldn't right the I-17R even though it was fitted with a carbon mast ?

How much do you weight ?

Wouter

At the time I weighed about 160 lb.

In no wind I could come really close, I just needed a couple feet of mast elevation. In more wind I had a hard time keeping it from falling off: it would start to come up and then spin off when the mast tip was only a couple of feet in the air.

P.S. - I think class minimum crew weight for the I-17R was something like 175 or 180 lbs, so I was way underweight.

Thanks guys!
The group comes through again.
When on it's side the Blade seems to want to go dead downwind with the mast pointing into the wind.
I now know that one of the things I did wrong was to not let the tension off the downhaul. That does explain my not being able to move the tip of the mast up to the surface even when I was parallel to the water with my harness hooked into the righting line. The sail was definitely resistng me.
ATRS I have in abundance. Maybe I'll take a whole box next weekend and give them a try. One of the locals has a water bag. I'll ask him how it's beeen working for him. The righting pole sounds interesting too.
I'll let you know how I fair.
John

John aka JDD,

Wanna sail the day after Thanksgiving???

To all,

I love the way ya'lls institutionalizing the term ATRS. Lurkers are gonna love trying to figure it out if they missed the explanation. Someone needs to start a post on the open forum: ATRS, the latest innovation by the F16 class...

Only problem with it is that you ought not to be taking plastic bags out on the water, because some of them are bound to get lost overboard. Can be deadly for animals and a nuisance for watercraft.

I'm 185 lbs and 6'2' and I've righted my Taipan a considerable amount of times singlehandedly. I have never used anything else but a righting line.

It is true that it gets harder with decreasing winds. Most difficult is no wind and no waves. In these conditions I can lift my mast clear of the water and it will hover a foot above the water surface. Then a slight change in wind or a small wave will push it over its balancing point and the boat will come pretty quickly. I have a homebuild F16 that probably is a little heavier here and here.

The fact that I can balance the rig in mid air suggested to me that not weight was the problem but the aerodynamic behaviour of the rig. The is the only thing that can explain the sticking behaviour. Especially since the mast comes up really quickly after the it raises a little higher above the surface.

Come to think of it maybe mast rotation can have an influence as well. Anything that puts shape in the top can increase the sticking. After all. Only 1 kg (2 lbs) of aerodynamic lift downward will require an additional 8.5 kg (16 lbs) to be on the righting line. So getting rid of any of this is very important.

One more thing. I found that when the mast does stick then halve the time it helps just to hang there and wait. Of course you'll need to hook use your trap harness to the rightling line for this. In my case the mast has not stopped moving but the movement of the mast itself is creating a sailforce downward itself resisting a quick raising of the mast. However it stays in motion and slowly moves through this sticking zone like moving through a viscous fluid. Often after about 10 seconds it clears this zone and then it comes up quickly. Ofcourse the movement of the mast top in itself will be experienced by the top as wind coming from above, if the sail is only hooking slightly then it will produce downward lift then.

remember 10-15 seconds of hanging on the righting line feels like an incredibally long time but it really isn't.

In more wind and wave action this sticking action is more easily disrupted and here I don't nearly hang as much on the righting line as in no wind/no waves.

My best advice is to do several rightings on a afternoon with a crew nearby (in the water waiting) and trying several different things. See what the influence is. I suspect it may even be different for sailors using sails by different sailmakers.


To finish this post I would like to discuss a good trick. Another crew on the water (with boat of course) can easily help an F16 sailor by sailing to the mast tip (that is being balanced by the righting crew just at the surface or above it) and just push the tip up another 2 feet or give it some upward speed.

So if two F16 sailors are sailing singlehander and you want to help eachother then this is a trick that is good to learn. Additionally If you need outside help from a committee boat during racing then this is by far the most simple and fastest way they can help you. The force required at the tip is surprisingly small. The rescuers can do it with their little finger if they had too. Then they can go onto other duties. Remember this trick as it is easily explained even to non sailors and the risk of damage is by far the smallest. Surely beats any powerboat pulling.

Wouter

I don't question your reasoning, but at 6' 2" you are your own righting pole! <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" /> The problem seems to become more difficult for shorter people.

All the more reason to use good technique! <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Go with a tall kitchen trash bag INSIDE of a burlap or loose woven produce bag.

Hey now let's save those trash bags for the trash.. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

For heavier platforms Wet/dry bags work well (to a point). They are mass produced so relatively inexpensive, won't burst and make a mess, and can be easily clipped into the righting line. Wet bags come in various sizes. One liter water weighs roughly one kg. i.e one liter water = 1 kg.

How does the righting bag work. I assume it helps float the mast? <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

No, to use it, one fills it with water. Then it is used to add weight to the person doing the righting. It could be attached to your righting line and flung over your shoulder or as the ATRS people do, simply put it in your lap.

That makes much more sense..

One of the problems I've had righting my Blade is when the mast comes up a foot or two but I've not enough ballast to finish the job and the Blade acts like a beach ball, spinning in the wind. The mast rotates away from the wind and soon the wind is hitting the bottom of the tramp, pushing the mast back into the water. Seems like the sea anchor off the bow would help, but then how do you retrieve it after you're back on your feet.
Oh, I'm 140 Lb. (64 KG) and 5 foot eight inches. A Murrays righting bag with block and tackle is what I use, but it's not quick.
Will

The sea anchor would need a trip line attached to its narrow end. Pull on this piece of cord and it reverses/collapses the anchor. Keep pulling and you have your anchor back.

Stealth F16's have Carbon Masts. Their tip wieght are equal to alu but could be at least 2.2kgs (5lbs) lighter. Thats why we don't carry trash bags with us? Wouter hasn't done the figures yet as he's not into anything but "raw materials". So a wing mast in carbon which can support a kite would be in my view very fast. Both upside down (sh*t happens) or the right way up.

Hey Mark,

That is not truthful !

I have done the numbers on the mast way in the past and I've always stated the difference between the two mast materials. One needs 10 to 15 kg less body weight to right a carbon masted F16. At 64 kg Will will never get the alu superwing mast up unaided, he is just too light. He may also be just be able to right a carbon masted F16 in no wind, no waves conditions.




It is more then that. Also the tip weights are not equal between alu and carbon. The Stealth masts should be right on minimum tip weight of 6 kg. The alu mast are around 7.5 kg depending on the fittings used.

A well designed carbon F16 mast should be about 4 kg lighter then a well designed and fitted alu mast.

Wouter

Managed to capsize the mighty SXL bows over stern yesterday on the beat ! was a bit windy , anyway due to bows going skywards actually managed at last to get boat to land upside down , as opposed to on its side with me trapped hanging off upside of tramp as at Grafham !

My point though is that I found I had to do nothing to get boat onto its side , it did itself , no traping off leeward stern as in old H5.9 days , infact it came up quicker than I wanted while I was guddling under tramp to realease mainsheet and traveller .all this due to the lightness of the carbon mast and its airtightness, it was very noticeable .

I also found on previous capsized at Grafham with boat on its side and me suspended mid air I couldn't get it to turtle and release myself when in the water .

My mast is a Stealth F 16 and the boat itself is similar but 1 1/2 foot longer and bit heavier .


I also noted that when on its side I was progressing downwind at a healthy 7Knots on the velocitek - which was very waterproof !

Six races over the weekend in the Long Beach, CA outer harbor hosted by the Alamitos Bay Yacht Club. A number of A Cats, 4 F-18s and one F-16. All started together. I only turned over once, at the first mark, in the first race. The breeze was probably under 10 mph at that point.
Had a knotted righting line rigged similar to the string above but again unable to get the mast out of the water unaidded. Deployed the secret weapon, aka the ATRS. I could get the mast about a foot out of the water with the trash bag on my lap, but no further. Bag failed when I tried
to add more water (no I did'nt lose it). Accepted assistance from the picket boat, an open **** whaler. The guy, approximately 5'10", had to raise the mast with arm fully extended before I could then keep it from going
back down. I guess my options now are a water bag with block and tackle, or a righting pole. Anyone have a recommendation? The pole sounds more elegant if it will work for me.
John, at least I'm getting better, D.
P. S. don't ask about my finishing positions, I'll just say I was upright. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

They both suck, but the bag sucks less: (a) the bag won't snap in two when you pinch it against your dolphin striker and (b) the bag doesn't stick out the butt end of your boat.

The trash bag idea was pretty original though hardly optimal…. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

I hate to write this down but at 78 kg and 1.70 mtr body length you should really be able to right the boat with good technique if you use a water bag.

Something went wrong, but I don't know what. Did you climb the rope when the mast came up ? If not then your buttock sink into the water and you are quickly losing weight. If you didn't climb up the rope and your buttocks didn't touch water at all then you weren't hanging low enough initially.

My advice now would be to take the boat out with a crew and do several righting efforts. The crew being there to hold the bow of the boat and help you out when righting fails. Try several things and see where the hang-up is. It may well be very educational to first try to right the boat together and see what works to speed up the righting itself. Most often these are the same points that will allow you to more easily right the boat singlehandedly. I think that experience does hep in righting.

Things I would try is.


-1- Unhook the mainsheet from the sail completely. Now the boom will point downward at the maximum angle and all shape will be gone.

-2- Hang lower, just above the water initially and when the mast comes up pull yourself up a little so you maintain your low position above water when the mast comes up. This trick seems to work well for me. Timing here is key. Wait to long and the mast stops. Climb to early and you may have to hang of the righting line longer then needed. If this is hard on your arms then use a small tackle

-3- Attached a proper bag (one that one rupture easily) to the righting line by its own line. Sits on hull hook on your trap harness and fill the bag. Then get into the water put the bag over your shoulder and push out again the hull. Now the bag is hanging off your shoulder and you've just doubled the leverage of the righting bag relatively to having it in your lap. Have a smaller line attach the bottom of the bag to the end of the righting line so you easy get the bag out of the water after righting.

-4- Also check if there is water inside your mast.

Again, somewhere something is going wrong and finding this is key. You should be able to right the boat.

Wouter

OK, thanks Wouter.
I'll follow your advice and practice this technique. I'll let you how it works.
John D.

You are hooking the righting line to your harness?
Silly question I guess but I had to ask.

Yes. I have the line knotted every foot or so as recommended by Phill in an earlier post. I'll get a water bag, try it out, and report how I fare.
John D.