To trap or not to trap - THAT IS THE QUESTION!

Ive noticed some folks trap out with spin up during bouy racing.

What does the rest of the F16 class do around the world? I have learned with the little racing I have done, that trapping out with spin up is just a big pain in the butt for bouy racing. Sometimes the course is to short to go through the trouble.

Also while chatting with Bob Cury, he said if you trap out you have to heat up too much in order to build aparent wind making you sail a higher course. Makes total sense to me.

What do you all think, do or practice?

The simple answer is ;

"Dependents on the conditions and the course."

Didn't we cover this about 4 weeks ago already ?

Wouter

Without writing a huge reply can you elaborate. I think that quote can be applied to a lot of sailing questions.

Maybe we did, I dont know. That is why I am asking TODAY.

That the question is raised again, means people still are concerned about it. This is a good thing! <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Bob was pretty forceful in his statement to me that bouy racing is about sailing the shortest distance. For that, you don't need to be on the wire. Others may disagree, but his record speaks for itself.

Robi, what you are asking is the very essence of downwind speed itself. Only the Master knows for sure, which will be faster in a given wind condition and on a given course. We mortals can first start with the two extremes: light air (5kts) and heavy air (20 kts). Obviously in light air you cannot trap, so you sit way inboard and try to get the hull up to minimize drag. Heat it up, lift the hull, slowly bear away while trying to keep it up, rinse and repeat until it's time to gybe. In heavy air you must trap or swim, but you will still want the hull up for less drag, as long as it won't lead to swimming.

So the "change over" point is the great unknown and that is where experience and skill come into play. If we go half way between 5 and 20, that is 12.5 knots of wind. So about there you will need to chose one. Having the experience to know which one to choose is what makes fast guys fast. But the wind is never that steady. What is fast right now might not be fast when a puff hits or when you sail into a hole. You have to shift gears a lot when it's gusty and the fast guys are the ones who are very good at shifting gears quickly.

I have crawled up the mountain to ask the Master and he told me this: "Speed is the only thing that matters, so make it go as fast as you can, as long as you can."

And remember, gaining speed will move the apparant wind forward, thus allowing you to go deeper, and at greater speed, until it bleeds off and you have to heat it up again.

Some like it hot, others like to go deep. In medium conditions it's always tough to make that choice, so I follow the fast guys... <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

Personally, I do not trap with spin when buoy racing. Realize that I sail on a relatively small lake with short courses usually. I do use the foot straps on the tramp and "droop" hike at the rear beam (a la Kilkenny).

I think it all depends on the distance of the leg, the number of anticipated gybes, exact conditions - but as a general rule, I do not like to waste the time.

Which leads to another question. How many tacks and jibes are common in F-16 buoy racing?

From the Tornado I am used to three laps with a race time of about 1 hour for the fastest teams. Quite often, it pays to 'bang the corner' and just do one or two tacks upwind and perhaps some more gybes to play gusts and headers downwind. What will it be like at Zandvoort?

Based on the last two UK Nationals, I'd say that because a Stealth/F16 tacks so easily and quickly, we don't tend to 'bang the corners'. It was especially noticeable at Mumbles this year that people were prepared to tack to cover/break cover/use the shifts etc. and upwind on a 50 minute race you might easily put in 4 or 5 tacks, downwind I reckon most people went for 3-4 gybes unless they were duelling (as I was on more than 1 occasion) and you might put in up to 7 or 8!

Since getting the Stealth I've learned to be more like the Assy skiffs and dinghies and keep well under and inside the laylines to a mark and it's paying dividends! Tacking just a few yards for clear air no longer holds any fear for me as the boat spins so quickly and accelerates so easily. You're gonna love it Rolf! <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I am definately going to like that. But I suppose I better get to work on my cardiovascular system <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

The Tornado is a beast to tack (deep hulls, short centerboards), so it is very 'expensive' when racing. Hearing that the F-16s are more nimble is a good thing. More tactics and boathandling is good.

To get back to Robis question. On the T we have a rough guide for when to move out and aft. If the boat feels tippy and hard to control, we move out and aft until it is under control again. I suppose there are some identical guidelines for the F-16s, except that you have another variable to adjust for in partially raised daggerboards.

Hey Team !

I've raced the F16 a fair amount and have developed a few convictions ( and a littany of opinions), about what's fast... Based on my objective evidence (primarily direct observation) - if you're trapping upwind, you're fastest (VMG here...), when you trap downwind. I've not practiced this convicion enough and always to my detriment...

Paul

I'm convinced that wiring downwind is faster once you get to the "critical" wind speed. This was about F3 on my Inter 17 and I'm assuming (for now) it will be lower on the 16 as it's lighter. BUT when it gets real windy then it's safer to not wire as it is just too wild. The "too wild" point will no dubt go up the wind speed as I get to grips with the 16.

First sail was in about a F3 last weekend and wiring was 100% (IMO of course) quicker then not wiring - you just get heated up so much more and so the apparent wind goes forward and so you bear off more(it is however harder work!). Sailing the 17 in a top F4 I could sail DEEPER flying a hull on the wire, than I could hitting on the side flying a hull as there was more speed, this moved the apparent wind forward (so I had to sheet in harder) and then you go deeper - This may sound mad, but it works !

There comes a point (as I said above) where it's just too wind to be out on the wire.

The size of the course also matters as does the number of boats around you (and so the probabily of needing a quick gybe to get out or trouble).

It's always a trade off between VMG and manoverability (and ability to react to shifts), it is also usefull to be able to gybe back into gusts quickly - thus sometimes it pays NOT to wire so you can ride a narrow wind band down hill.

It's all a trade off really.

I'll be wiring "hungry monster" downhill most of the time.

Well that's clearly an over simplification, as I can assure you that sticking the thing dead down wind is *not* the fastest way to the mark even though it is the shortest route.

Similarly, if you sail at 90 degrees to the wind, you'll never get to the downwind mark. Somewhere in between is the fastest angle, and that's where the challenge lies.

I think it really depends on the conditions, and not just the wind strength, but also the size of gusts and the size of waves. Given how Aaron sails when he's kicking us all, I'm confident that there comes a point where in a steady wind trapezing is faster.

If the wind is gusting from non-enough to trapeze to too much to trapeze, you'll do better to sit in: being sat in in the gusts doesn't do much harm, as you just go deeper, but being trapped in the lulls does, because the boat gets horribly out of trim.

Paul

True enough! As I recall, keeping 90 degrees apparent wind was an essential part of the bargain. Guess I should have mentioned that small detail earlier. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

Ah, OK <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I definitely think it pays to go a bit hotter than 90 degrees apparent wind. I tend to go for about 70.

I was quite surprised to discover that it pays even in very light wind. At one of the races at Grafham the wind dropped right off and I was resisting the temptation to go high. When I realised the F18s were getting past me, I started sailing the same angles as them. The angles felt really high, but I was now beating them downwind.

Paul

I've been in situations where it payed to do either of these opposing things, it came down to specifics to determine which was best. For me control is most often the deciding factor. Most often I hike out as Paul does. I don't have toestraps yet, but I really do want them as in certain short waves I want to trap as well to prevent the bows from burying to much. If I sit in then, I find that the boat both stops and wants to capsize. With one on the wire it tends do punch throught the next wave and not heel as much.

I've sailed through the fleet of F18's at my club both when trapezing and when not trapezing in very similar conditions. I couldn't tell you why. I just did what felt fast at the time. I always decide at the moment what is best.

Wouter

Can anyone share any suggestions/pointers on trapping while flying the spin solo?

One thing I had to figure out on my own is its necessary to install a rear block on my F18 for the spin sheet to run through near the base of the maisheet, in order to use the spin sheet for stability and balance. However, doing this increases the drag on the sheet making it hard to release as quickly as I want.

Do you use footstraps too?

How hard is it to maintain this position? I have been a bit leary of doing it much solo without other boats around. Are you able to keep trapping successfully in moderate to higher winds with the spin out? It seems like it would be hard to maintain without footstraps if you had to quickly bear off or dump the spin sheet to keep from flipping.

Not quite F16 but it might be a help - as a rough rule of thumb, on the Tiger when we are 2 stringing up wind, we put the crew on the wire downwind. 1 on the wire upwind has the crew on the windward deck off breeze and on the tramp up wind = crew to leeward with the spi.

Note: This is *very* rough. You need to take into account the sea conditions, wind, other boats and where the next mark is.

Tiger Mike

The problem I have is bearing off too much, having the boat slow down and then me shuffling inelegantly forwards to avoid losing grip/balance. Doesn't lead to capsize, but it is annoying.

I'm going to be putting footstraps on this weekend, and I'm also considering some pro grip. This made a world of difference when we put it on the Tiger.

Paul

I have the block in the rear crossbeam. I have the foot straps (I don't see how its possible without them).

For me its a slow process getting out on the wire with the spinaker up. It makes it a lot easier when the boat is powered up. But for me, going out without moving the tiller is hard, I seem to always bear away when going out on the wire. ALWAYS. I have been concentrating on NOT doing that lately. That is why I am back at baby stepping on the boat.

I forgot to mention at the beginning of my thread. This was mostly aimed at F16 UNI-RIG sailing (which means solo).

I find the following technique allows me to trap without much effort. For this example I'll assume a starboard tack downwind under spi uni (solo).

Once on the proper starboard heading (assuming you just jibed or rounded "A"), I hook up with my trapeze. I situate myself near the rear beam with my butt hanging over the hull--ie I'm suspended by the trap' line. Right leg is extended with foot against the (starboard) stay plate. Left leg is collapsed with my knee near my chest, foot on the hull.

From this position I can re-position my weight forward or aft.... or .... extend my left leg and voila' I'm full trapped.

"a la Kilkenny"...and its better than the Ab Roller for trimming the extra gut ballast

http://www.asontv.com/products/1057008692.html

Simon, I can see some sense in what you're saying; the faster you go the lower you can sail due to the apparent wind. However, if you're not on a pure run due to course or wind shift would you sit in to reach a high mark and not trap due to the above? I seem to be doing the opposite, trap to sail high and sit in to sail low. I wish I could race against other f16's as often as they do at Datchet, this is the only way to get the best answers.

Hi all,

my guess on breeze is about 8kt with a bit more in gusts, I am 90 kg. and this would almost be enough for me to trap, so I would advise lighter crews should be trapping if wind is at all consistent, in that breeze you can do around 15 kts. boatspeed if trapping which makes it worthwhile.

I would not trap if the wind was very shifty, as you can gybe quicker to follow the shifts and gusts if sitting on tramp, this is especialy true for sailing one up, as it takes longer to gybe. I tend to sit on tramp and go deep as possible though, I have never found hiking to give good VMG. Either trap for max. speed, longest distance to bottom mark. Or sit in for max. depth, shortest distance to bottom mark.

The defining reason to trap is keeping the leeward bow above water, I get to a point sitting on tramp where I have to trapeze off the back to keep the bow up. But once it gets too hairy on trap, it becomes time to sit back on tramp and oversheet main to depower, go slower, deeper and keep bows up.

The defining reason to stay on tramp, is that in the lulls you have to head too high and oversheet spinnaker to keep hull flying, this is bad VMG time, not good.

Just my experience, for what it's worth.

Regards Gary.

Hope this makes sense.
Copied from post 22/11. Re. Video of this event watch Paul fly.

I always try to remember that sailing cats is about boat speed. The caveat to that statement is being familiar enough with your boat to feel the differnece in speed at differnt headings. If you trap out and have to vary your course 5 degrees (which is not much) to power up you give up around 30 boat lengths in distance traveled. Therfore you had better have a pretty significant increase in boat speed to make up for it. Solo the point of gain will be in much less wind as you have to provide some power to the sail. But remeber that in course racing not fully powering up as long as you are heading the right way is less on a negative than in a distance style event where dead downding runs are rare.

Gina and I sal pretty light, but at 12 knots (Where the white caps are just filling in) we are positioned with her still on the lee hull and myself just inside the weather hull. Using the Area D as an example against Olli and Kelly on thier Cap as my yard stick. ON day 1 we played it conservative and did not trap. It was gusty with lulls being around 16 and gusts in the upper 20's. We lost ground down wind here not trapping. On Sunday it lightened up a little and we stayed pretty even downwind not trapping while the the Cap continued to trap. The last races with the wind around the 16-18 we were even making up ground at the point where they continued to trap and I had moved to the middle of the tramp and Gina kept on the weather hull. They were still going fast but at this point our VMG was getting better.

Learn to feel the boat and sail where you are comfortable. As Robi pointed out, if you can not transition smoothly to trapping downwind any added speed is wasted anyway, especially on a short course.

M

Looks like I'll be staying on the tramp in the foreseeable future! <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

You're not getting off that easy....get out there and practice!!

Where's Robi ....

COME ON PETE, GET OUT ON THE WIRE .... NOW IN AND GYBE ... HEAT IT UP!!! ... BACK OUT ON THE WIRE .... GO GO GO

You know you can all come back here and practice for just a day any time you want. Better wind now that the cold fronts are making this far south. Have a good run at the Steeple chase!

Lets do it, before Tradewinds. Terry, Pete? What ya say? A day of sailing of Tims house. I gotta do some repairs to my boat, nothing major.

<img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

"Lets do it, before Tradewinds. Terry, Pete? What ya say? A day of sailing of Tims house. I gotta do some repairs to my boat, nothing major. "

Work permitting! <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

No. Remember it's still about speed over the water AND angles, not angles and then speed (my opinion always).

Dump the traveller and/or over sheet the kite.

I have some very rough numbers in my head for the Inter 17 regarding how much higher I can sail if I dump 18 inches and then all the traveller when the kite is up (and in lighter stuff it a fair amount).

You still need as much speed as possible and you should get that from wiring.

there is also the consideration of where you are going next.

If the next leg is a beat or non (no way) kite leg, then I'll let the kite take me deep if I have to, then drop and head up and then be ready for a nice rounding for the tight reach / beat.

If the next leg is another kite leg, then I'll work real hard to lay the mark with the kite up as (if you make it) you can then return to VMG mode and not have to drop and re-hoist the kite at the mark.

IMO sailing with the kite up when wiring is all about having a "grand plan", I try and answer the following q's before I put the kite up for a leg.

1, is it pure VMG (i.e. stay in as much wind and the right shifts)
2, is there any bias on the leg (do I need to sail more Port or stbd?).
3, is the leg after this kite up or down
4, is there much slower traffic on Port or stbd (looking for a clear passing lane)
5, do I need to worry about anyone behind me (are the faster boats that may pass, or do I need to protect my position).
6, do I need to think about phases of regular shifts

Given the answers to the above, a "plan" should present it's self...

1, If it's just VMG (so a pure run) then just go with the shifts / gusts but try not to bang a corner
2, If there is some bias on the leg, will I be on a lift or header when I round - If header and on the short leg, might be best to say on the header working on the principal that it will shift back in time to gybe back, if on a lift on the short leg, then gybe.
3, If so and it's a little tight and I am on a gust, sail high WITHOUT the kite up and then hoist and (hopefully) lay the mark and sail on with the kite up.
4, Passing slow traffic without a good lane can be a PITA, if loads of boats (esp if they don't have kites) - go the other way.
5, If you have people behind you, that you want to keep there, it pays to stay in the same band of wind if you can, they get a gust that you don't, thay can just sail around you and away.
6, On a header at the moment, stay with it. If on a lift, gybe.

All of those are trade offs against each other, and you can only find the answers with time.

It is really usefull to KNOW how much deeper you go for the average "gust" on the course on a day - this may allow you to work out if it's worth gybing on a gust that is a lift (you will loose something in the gybe), or just power off with more wind on the lifting gybe (but still going lower as you have more wind).

This last point is very true where I sail as we only usually have fairly small courses with a W/L of between 1 - 1.5 miles, so if fairly windy, the run may only take a couple of minutes, and so going an extra gybe might only cost you 15 seconds from wire to wire (when I've had some practice <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> ), but that might be 5% of the time on the run.

Hope this helps....

Here's my schedule for the rest of Dec. This weekend I'll be flying to Tel Aviv. Next weekend, Bombay, that leaves the 23-24 (Chirstmas is Monday) and 30-31, but I might be at a horse show that weekend (30-31) I won't have my Jan. schedule until Dec. 17 but I'll let you know. You don't need me though, you can use my marks, they are in the back yard, under the canoe.

Where will the Corona's and Lime's be?

Tim; leave the drinks in the 'fridge, just leave the key under the mat! <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

I'll tell the wife to leave the back door open! <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> Ooops, did I say that out loud?

Tim,
Good morning,
Have fun today
Sorry I can't make it

To watch Tim on line in real time
go here 4 hours from now : http://www.10doch.co.il/Caesareacamera.asp

http://66.165.158.190/weather/lab/wx.htm

Erez, I have just made it home about an hour ago. We had a great sail, very nice wind, a little lumpy sea, not like the nice flat water you and I had. We sailied from the club down toward Jaffa, in and out a few times, then back up to the club. We could double trap most of the first hour but then it started to lighten up and by 4 pm it was over. I had fun, did any of it show up on the camera? We were about a mile off shore so I doubt if you could see it from the beach camera.

Thanks again, Tell Itzak I had a great time and will see you next time.

Robi (or anyone), do you have a pic of the rear beam mounted block? My biggest problem (especially 1-up) is being pulled forward by the spin sheet. PITA.

I don't think they actually meant the block is attached to the beam. Robi set mine up for me. It is just a turning block attached to the tramp, with a bungee, near the the rear cross bar. The purpose is to keep the spin sheet from sliding out of reach.

I too am having problems sliding across the boat and plan to add some non-skid to the deck.

I was thinking a fixed block mounted on the beam so that the pull of the spin sheet would be more perpindicular to the hull, rather than forward. You would actually collect the sheet after the block in wiring conditions. Maybe be a PIA in 2-up mode. May try it and see.

The only reason I put that block where it is, is to pick up the slack on the spin sheet and it is extremely easy to grab the sheet once you gybe.

If I were to make the system fixed to the rear beam I will need a longer spin sheet.

The trick I use to avoid moving the tiller while transitioning from the boat to the trapeze is to lay the tiller extension down so it rests on the top of the hull. I press down so that I touch both the tiller extension and hull with my rear hand, keeping the tiller from moving. I kinda lock down the tiller by simultaneously grabbing the hull with one hand. For the 2 seconds I need to transition this seems to work pretty well.

My only purpose in placing the spin block near the rear cross beam is to have an anchor point that is near the rear of the boat, rather than the front of the boat. When the boat slows quickly, this provides stability for me on the wire that a forward point does not. A bungee cord does not seem like good idea for attaching the block for this purpose.

My rear block is a snatch block (one that I can open as needed to add or remove the spin sheet). I used this type block so I could switch the position if I had a crew member, or in case I needed more spin sheet slack.

Having said that,I admit I am no expert in this solo spin while trapping subject. I am here to learn.

spfechner :
Do you actually use the rear block? As in put a load on it or handle the sheet from it? I dont, the rear beam block is only there to pick up the slacked sheet. Some here use blocks (myself) and others use stainless rings. Both work pretty darn good. Its all about keeping a tidy tramp which helps keep things out of the way.

I'm sure you're right regarding the bungee. In my case, I haven't trapped under spinnaker, and continue sheeting as before, i.e. to the block at the forward cross bar.

This is what I was referring to. A block on the rear beam that is handling load, so as to NOT pull the crew forward while trapped under spin. Seems most useful under 1-up sailing.

Any pics? Does it interfere with skipper? traveller?

Mine just looks like this one. Same exact thing, only difference is the block is ronstan.

I have no idea about fixing the block to the rear beam. BUT if I were to, I will need a longer spin sheet. Although that is an easy fix as I can install some pig tails. OBVIOUSLY, I will need a longer sheet in order to trap out with spin up. Sometimes when I am trapped out with spin up, the bungee cord is extended maybe 10 to 12 inches and goes back and forth as I sheet in and out.

Hi all,

I would imagine you may want to avoid running spin sheet to back beam, as skipper and crew if 2 up will be moving over the top of it every tack and in and out off trap.

I have allways thought one of the advantages of having the spin sheeting off the side stay, was that it stayed out of the way up forward.

I have no problem with being pulled forward by the spin sheet, 2 ratchets fix this <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />, the load on the sheet is so light all you do is hold it in your hand. No load pulling forward until you need to pull the sheet in that is <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />.

I have tried bungee systems to take up the slack but found they made the feel on the sheet strange. We use a bungee with a ring on it about a foot long, tied to the clew of the spinnaker, which the return chord passes through, this causes the sheets to be pulled into the chute earlier than they otherwise would, taking up some slack. But if your'e sheets are long enough for trapping off the back off the boat you still get some slack on deck, but not enough to be a problem.

Best Wishes for Xmas.

Regards Gary. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Hi all,

hopefully a picture is worth a thousand words, attached is a picture of bungee attached to clew of spinnaker.

Regards Gary. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Hi all,

I do use a extra pair of pulley's, see attachment, these keep the spin sheet close to hand for singlehanding and stop the sheet from catching on the central sheeting cleat.

Regards Gary. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

That is actually a very neat trick Gary, I will definately try that one this coming season as I really would like less excess spi sheet on my trampoline.

Holger, just come to the F16 event at Zandvoort 2007 and you can see all the different systems yourself. And I dare say you can test sail most systems as well. Best way to tell which systems you like and want to copy.

Wouter

and a closer shot.

Bollocks, that's to secure the esky and you know it

happy xmas everyone, tis the season to be *hiccup* tipsy

Yes if things work as planned i will come to Zandvoort with my own Blade, but it is now time to think about lines and setup to have my Blade ready in early 2007. I can have the Blade fitted to my needs, and try to start with a setup that will most probably work, and avoid what other found as not well functional. Therefore my other thread "F16 lines and layout" to collect different layouts and the thinking behind it to chose the best.
Holger

Okay,

We'll be looking out for you at Zandvoort.

Wouter