proper spinnaker technique

I thought the whole idea was to find 90 degrees apparent wind and keep it. Gybing when necessary to stay on the "best" course to the mark.

Yes? No? Maybe?

It mainly has to do with your speed and the concept of driving up to build up speed and then playing with turning down to try to optimize your speed and VMG to the C mark. The ability to fly a hull downwind- just barely out of the water) has a lot to do with the weight balance on the boat, etc. In the end you have to find the sweet spot which maximizes speed/VMG. I think it is hard to define it as a 90 deg thing although I know where you are coming from with that as that is what a lot of books say. Play the feel of the course, not the defined 90 or 100 or 80 or whatever angle

If the wind is greater than 7, I do everything I can to get and keep one hull out of the water at all times. I don't end up paint too much attention to the angle of apparent wind, but it is usually 90 or a little less. I still find I'm sailing much deeper than the A-cats and sloops w/o spin.

I set the main and traveller according to the tell tales and then trim the spin continuously as well as keep adjusting my weight and position on the boat.

There is a magic point when you forget about heading and focus on flying a hull (it was about 7kts on the Inter 17, and I have no idea yet where it is on the F16, but I'm sure it's lower), heading downwind will come when the speed builds, the hull flys and then you have to bear off.

90deg is probably a good target for when you are moving real slow, once the boat is starting to drive, it might be tighter than that.

I'm still very very much learning my F16 - but it's Fun <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I think 90 deg is a bit deep for anything but strong wind. The tell-tales are useful in those marginal conditions where you're wondering if there's enough wind to fly a hull, but above that, do it by feel - get a hull out and keep it there.

On thing I learnt when sailing against the F18s at Grafham last year was don't be afraid of going too high. I was worried about going much higher than 90deg apparent wind, but even in the really light stuff it pays to get boat speed . Go somewhere fast <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Paul

Paul,

I was talking about just before you get to real drifting conditions where you are just trying make progress with very little pull in the sails. As soon as the sails are pulling at all, I agree; you head up hard and get the apparent wind building.

Gave it a try today! Albeit, with limited success, but it is definitely a "tool" I will try to master.

Great day at GYC! Winds around 10-12 knots out of the East, with occassional gusts to 15 or maybe a little higher. Was doing fairly well until I turned the boat over (twice) and missed a mark! <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />

Good food, good people and gorgeous spring weather! And my crew is still speaking to me.

Amazing what can occur when you regularly talk to yourself! <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

ooooooooooooohhhhhhh dem be fighting werds <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

It's okay! Pay backs are (sentence enhanced)! <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

I seem to have some success with VMG in very light conditions easing the spin halyard, to increase the luff a couple of inches then going deeper. As previously noted, adjust trim accordingly.

Being new to spins, here's my question. I heat the boat up. hull starts to lift, I bear off gradual and smooth, but the aparent wind still comes forward and collapses the spin. Am I supposed to sheet in as the aparent comes forward? To bear off more seems to just stall the boat. Basically, should I be trimming the chute or leave it set and drive to it? Thanks. Ed

Ed,

The spin will need constant trimming but in very small increments. I know I am in the groove when I am having to move no more than 6-8 inches to keep it full and flowing.

If you find your apparent switching, especially to the point of coming so far forward as to collapse the sail, you are either comming up way too far or waiting to bear off too long. You want to remember that you are comming up to get additiional hull speed, not necessarily to try and fly the hull. As you are learning, try to keep the ratchets off so you can feel the sail. When rounding up you want to only go up as far as where you are feeling increased pressure in the sail. At this point hold it steady and try very small increments of up and down to judge relative hull speed and try to maintain the pressure in the sail. Adjust your crew weight accondingly then depending on the conditions so that at this point you can get the windward hull up (if it is not too gusty or wavy and you feel comfortable)

This is very critical when the wind is lighter. When it is blowing it is very easy to feel the hull speed change with the tiller. When it is light is is very easy to way over steer and go very slow. When it is light downwind my crew tells me constantly how to drive based on the pull on their sheet. Cat sailing is all about maximizing hull speed. Whe it is right, you are fast and the apparent wind will stay very steady even if the conditions are not.

M

Excellent info Matt.
Thanks

I have found that it is very easy to oversheet the spin especially in light air. I am still learning the best combo of triming/helming to make the go the way it is supposed to. I understand the concept of driving to the spin but when I am crewing I always try to make sure the spin is "breathing" regardless of the helming (takes a lot of effort but I think you clearly get more speed out of it than only driving to the spin)

On the Tornado in light air and small chop, I've found taking the spin sheet from the crew allowed me to coordinate helming & sheeting much much better. This might not be better once you & crew have lots & lots of experience...but it sure helped us gain lots of places and eventually to finish 1st in a distance race last year.

Other tips I've learned...never oversheet the spin...if in doubt, ease it out and keep it on the verge of collapse/luff curling periodically for max power.

To carry the spinny higher in a breeze, try easing off halyard and/or tack line. This has the effect of flattening the luff, thus de-powering and giving more "point" to the sail.

In light stuff, crew goes to leeward and at or forward of the main beam...leans outboard holding trap handle. Helm sits as forward as possible (dependant on tiller length) and moves in board, typically near the mast. This lets us lift the hull in some really light stuff. But, don't make the mistake of trying to lift it at all other costs. There comes a wind speed when it just doesn't pay to keep heading up...sail flat and go for VMG...just be ready for the puffs to get the hull out.

Thanks much guys. This will my first Tuesday night race with the Blade tonight. Conditions are supposed to be typical Ches Bay 5 to 10. It will be a good chance to work with the other F-16s to get some groove on.

This is one of Roy's images from the 2007 Alter cup. Compare the sail twist and mast bend between boats 2 and 6.
Try to be like 2.

increase rotation and blow downhaul right?

I guess you were allowed to add streamers to the boats huh?

Also note the mainsheet on boat six. IMO way to slack.

I was thinking thinking the same but wasn't going to judge given the different angles of the boats. There was one boat in the other pics that was clearly too loose though.
I will miss the HT's mast.. that thing is crazy strong.

now this is clearly too much IMO, emphasis on IMO

but then again, maybe they just set and he is getting ready to sheet in some.
yeah.. they just set it.. but still too much if it were my mast

And take a look at the shape of the battens, that is a compounded s-curve (in multiple planes) !

Also look at boat numbered 3 further away, do you see the top of the mast bend off. Waaaaaaay to little mainsheet tension for those 20-25 knots of wind.

Also we are looking at the back of the boat and the mainsail appears to be absolutely perpendicular to the centreline, riding against the sidestay I'm sure. You don't pull a spi in those winds if your mainsail is trimmed like that, this is asking for trouble. And to be honest, it is not needed either. Even singlehandedly I never trim my mainsail like that in a blow.

Anybody out here claiming the alu F16 masts are anything other then completely abuse resistant ?

I can see why Matt was a nervous wreck at the end of the event. This was more like a durability test. In hindsight Matt and VWM came out clean, with a product now proven beyond a shread of doubt, but it must indeed have been nerve wrecking.


Wouter

Bravo to the Blades for surviving that kind of abuse!

Judging by the lack of tension on the spinsheet, the traveller being way out of center, and the crew standing at the mast.
I think that the skipper is trying to blanket the spin for a hoist or drop.
If this was the case he should have only slacked the traveller though.
Another possibility is that there was a problem with the snuffer setup, maybe too much resistance on the halyard or something.
Another worrying thing is the joystick, this should be thrown behind the boat.

*Eeek*, is it the joystick that is sticking out behind the skipper? Nice way to crack it if it catch the right wave or when the crew go out on trapeze. I keep the tiller when going downwind if it is relatively light and I want my weight a bit forward, but in conditions like that it would go behind the boat as soon as I came inn from the trapeze.

Sure they are setting the spi. If you look at the boat in front of them the crew there also seem to be working on the spi. Having the mainsheet a bit slack when setting the spi isn't that dangerous if you are going deep to help your crew, but I agree that this is overdoing it. Skipper looks ready to trim in both mainsheet and traveller once the spi is up tough.
Must be nice pressure with the battens bending like that.

What classes did the participants of the Alter cup come from? With all the talk I have the impression that they mostly came from non-spi equipped classes? Am I right, and are spi-boats still relatively rare in the US?

The excessive mast bending from the boat in front can IMHO only be caused by the cunningham being max'ed out.

Actually alot of them came from spinnaker boats themselfs. Boats like the I-20 and F18/Tiger.

Wouter

Not the sailors in that last photo. They came off a Hobie 16. This was the first time they ever sailed a spin boat.

Hey Robi -

That is Paul and Mary Ann Hess - two-time Hobie 16 National Champions. Paul has made two other Alter Cups before and has some spin experience. Very game chap. Mary Ann has less experience with the 'chute, but is still excellent crew. This team had a particularly tough week - it was their mast that broke. If the breeze had been a little more moderate, I think they really would have shined. Don't make the mistake of writing them off if you ever race them.

ps - I thought the mast on the Blade was very bendy. It stands to reason that it would flex more than the mast on the Capricorn, but it seems to do so much more than I expected. Looking at photos, it seems that the diamond wires attach at slightly different places than on the wingmast I have. I'm sure there are experts who have engineered the attachment points, but they seem too low to me, leaving too much mast unsupported up high. Remember that nobody pushed the Alter Cup boats downwind very hard - when the wind was up, so was the sea-state. After our first gigantic stuff on our first downwind leg, we changed gears and never really changed back. Granted, the boat seemed to like it that way, but I feel it could be pushed quite a bit harder in flatter water - I just didn't feel we were going as fast as we could have been. My point is, however, that the mast seemed really bendy, even in the low-and-slow mode.

I dont really see how you could push it hard without either a chickenwire or footstrap.
Maybe with the next Altercup there could something like a Pro training clinic to get the crews up to speed with their cat?

Personally I want to stay well clear of naming the sailors in the pictures that we analyse. Still, I remember Matt metioning that the Hess's has been on the Blade F16 before the Alter Cup itself. The same with the kids Luke L. and Caroline W. Matt claimed that these crews expressed the opinion that the boat felt significantly different from what it is supposed to feel.

I quote




Source : http://www.catsailor.com/forums/sho...umber=106441&page=0&vc=1

So in all fairness, the Hess's were not totally new to the boat and several other teams can be seen in the pictures (or in the background of them) to trim the rig in much the same manner.

I can only say that that is mostly definately not the way I run things on my own boat in a blow and neither do the other 3 F16 crews at my club (+Geert). Maybe Matt is correct and the Alter Cup settings did indeed necessitate sailing the boats like this. Either way they were not designed to be sailed this way in these winds.




Pull everything tight, release mast rotation, hoist spi, pick up speed gently with crew getting out on trap and moving to the rear of the skipper (hooking onto footstraps or the butt of the skipper) and then gently heat it up some more and steer, steer, steer. The combined weight just has to be on the rearbeam of slightly behind it, when flying a spi in a blow. When you sit next to one another on the luff hull then the weight is too much forward for a good blow. Remember moving the crew from sitting next to the sidestay to level with the rearbeam or just behind it is a difference of 70 kg over 1 mtr (3 feet) allowing 15 to 20 kg more saildrive at 3.75 up the mast (pressure point) before the bows go down and that is alot !


But, indeed, this is one of those boat specific trick one learns after a good number of hours on the boat and that simply can't happen in an event like the Alter Cup.

Wouter

Hi Wouter -

I disagree with you slightly on a couple of things in your description, but for the most part, you're not wrong. Those priciples translate across platforms pretty well. I appreciate that there are pics posted showing people sheeted waaaaay out on these boats, but by no means were all teams doing it this way. In fact, even some of the teams shown did not do it the same way every time - most (as Matt noted in the referenced post) tried different things until they hit on something that felt right. Judging overall skill from a snapshot is a dangerous practice. Maybe Paul and Mary Ann had been on a Blade before the event - but I'd bet it was once, and it wasn't blowing 25. Familiarity with the systems is achievable in short order - familiarity with the nuances comes slower. I would just say that some of the posts in this thread might lead one to underestimate some of the teams that sailed.

Also, as Matt said, some teams did in fact figure out very quickly exactly where to be and what settings worked best - it can and does happen at every Alter Cup, no matter what the boat. I am always in awe of the people who demonstrate such versatility and "feel" for a boat they have never touched before.

I think we agree with eachother on these issues.

Your comments are perfectly reflected in the picture below, the difference in sail trim and mast shape between these two crews (boats) is striking.

Everybody note how straight the mast of boat number 2 is compared to the large S-shape of boat #6.



Wouter