New Mainsails?

I have lost track of who is building F16 sails now. I know Glaser and Ulman, who else? Yesterday Robi and I sailed in light air. Whe we were done, we put our mainsails over each other on the grass. His Ulman was a good 6 inches longer at the foot but narrower on the leach, by about 6 inches at the mid point. What are the other builders doing? Wider or longer? I think in a blow, his might be faster due to more sail area down low vs. my wider sail up high I might have to de-power earlier. His square top was "more square" than mine too. That is, his makes about a 90 degree line, luff to leach, at the top while mine slopes down toward the leach a little more.

Thoughts?

Tim,
What kind of main do you have? I have an Ullman now- probably similar to Robi's and I have a Glaser on order so I will be able to do the same comparison- same with the spinnaker. I have a pic of Robi's main that he had during the seminar and that is clearly a different cut than recent sails.
Nice you guys could go out and sail one on one. I wish I could do that. I am trying to get together with the Blade on pensacola.
As for other sailmakers in on the F16s- when I asked the question a while ago, Landenburger (sp?) and Ashby were the others that came up.

The thing I have noticed about the Ullman main I have is that it is somewhat full.. but I don't have that much experience with uni sails (or any sails for that matter <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> ). Compared the the HT uni sail it is MUCH fuller.

I believe I have one of the first Ullmans. One thing I notice in comparison to the other (non-F16) boats in our fleet is that the top batten is at a very shallow angle to the mast. I feel as if it doesn't provide much control of the shape at the very top of the sail. Curious to know how it compares with later Ullmans and other makers.

Mark:
That is the same exact sail I have. I believe they are from the same batch of orders from VMI.

I was running around 3" of mast pre-bend to flatten out the sail. But it killed my boat speed. Tim, was doing laps around me. The winds were around 3 to 5 kts max.

Tim:
My spreaders are now further forward and I am running 35 on the loose gauge. Yesterday while at your lake, they were further back and I was at 37 on the loose gauge. The mast surely looks straighter now (less pre-bend). Now to test sail this saturday, only problem is no other blades to test with.

I bet my Ullman is the same as the rest of yours also. I haven't gotten around to measuring my prebend and diamond tension but 3 inches sounds/seems right for my mast set up also.
Robi- I just decreased my rake some. now to about an inch or so ahead of the transoms. I think it sails better now... however I think I coudl very well just be confusing myself <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

MArk,
How do you do against the Nacra 17s?

Pineda Park ... Saturday and Sunday.

Be There

I've actually had limited time on the water so far, but based on a small amount of experience against two 17s - I feel I have equal or better straight-line speed against one of the guys I sail with, though well beaten around the course just on sailing skill. The other guy is Jim Young. If I manage to get close to him sometime I'll let you know how I do <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />.

Thanks but no can do.

Sorry I forgot to mention my sail is a Glaser, not an Alter Cup Glaser but about the same cut I'm told. If you look at that picture of #705 above, you see with no down-haul on, it touches the boom. Mine is about 6" above my boom with no downhaul.

Robi, I'm not sure if our sails were the biger factor in that light wind, I think I got a couple lucky zyphers of air. Be glad you are not here today, even less wind! Complete glass across the lake most of the day. Now at 6pm there is about what we had, being caused by remnants of a far off Tstorm.

How are you guys measuring your rake? Both my trap lines are too short to reach either the transom or the forward bridal attachments. Do you just add a short piece of line (or as Robi likes me to say, ROPE <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />) to your traps to measure?

My ullman main doesn't get close to making it to the boom even when max downhaul. With just taking the slack out of the downhaul it probably makes it to about 8-10 inches above. I could be way off (I have problems estimating stuff like that!)

yeah, just take the trap line off of the bungee and tie a small piece of ROPE to it and then run it to the front bridle then measure where is comes to at the stern.

went out today in mild/moderate wind. Does anyone else sail consistently with a GPS? I use it to sort of pace myself since there aren't any other boats around. How fast are you guys going in moderate wind pointing? I seem to do about 9kn (I can hit 10-11 I guess when footing) or so upwind and 14-15 down in mild/moderate wind. I could suck as far as I know <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

Why spend all that money and time on an inferior cut main that you will never be happy with? By comparison the Goodall F16 main looks strikingly different. The foot for example is about six inches shorter in length, the leech shape is fuller and the head is bigger. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

I don't think I would call Ullman or Glaser inferior cut. They are different yes, but go ahead and prove "inferior."
I wouldn't mind an Ashby or Goodall or Landy set of sails if the exchange rate didn't suck and I wouldn't have to send it 4000 miles or more away if there is a problem- and then still who could say they were "superior" to Ullman or Glaser?

BTW, go ahead and give us a nice long explanation of how the sails we are discussing are inferior.

Is there any good reason it would be cut that way?

I need to look at it a little closer to be sure of my estimate. Maybe I should refine it to 6-8inches. I am not sure why it would be made that way other than getting more sail area up higher I suppose. I would think that would be of some benefit. Sail design is serious rocket science to me but I would love to play around with it someday.

Sure you can save a little money but what do you get in return? A jury rigged main you’ll never be happy with…. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

Are you calling the mainsails created by the likes of Ashby, Landenberger, Glaser and Ullman "jury rigged that you'll never be happy with" ?

Just checking !

Wouter

Now that I look at the picture of #705 a bit closer, it appears he has a little bit of down-haul tension on, (note the lack of luff wrinkles and camber in the sail, at rest) which makes the foot look closer to the boom than it would be without tension.

My Glaser main is a good 6-8" above the gooseneck with no tension on, but I can easily pull it down to the boom with some downhaul. So to re-cap. Robi's Ulman was about 6" taller and a little narower, my Glaser was a little shorter but fatter at mid leach. Kind of like it's owner... <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

Yes, I can confirm that there was some amount of downhaul on. I hope someone takes lots of photos of different sails from the GC next month.

I haven’t seen a Landenberger F16 main but both Goodall and Ashby are absolute state of the art and hassle free and therefore come highly recommended. Ashby doesn’t except credit cards however so you’ll have to find some other form of payment but it’s a beautiful cut. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

In regard to the top batten angle. There seems to be an almost rigid reinforcing section across top of head. I have been wondering for some time why this would not be done. Does anyone know if it is just tape?

"...Goodall and Ashby are absolute state of the art and hassle free and therefore come highly recommended."


I fully agree; but I've inspected and sailed against a new Glaser main and I will say it is definitely on par!

Great and did they change the luff rope or do you still need to install a halyard to get it up the mast? <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

On my Taipan #297 w/ goodall and ashby mains--no halyard.

On Taipan F16 #300 w/ glaser main--no halyard.

This is a simple change. Just take out the old bolt rope and replace with hydrolic tubing.

How many people can do this at home and how much does it cost to have it done ?

Not to mention the fact that a larger portion of the sailors choose to have the "old" setup when given a choice.

The only "advantage" of the hydrolic tubing it "not having a halyard". Its largest drawback is "not having a halyard" and the fact that it is much harder to fit to a normal size sail bag.

In the way of aerodynamic (performance) it is a non issue.

In the way of weight difference it is a 225 grams (1/2 lbs) issue; as per 18 meter of 4 mm dyneema.

In the way of tipweight, the 8.5 meter halyard still running up inside the sailtrack when the mainsail is hoisted contributes a staggering 57 grams of tipweight (1/8 lbs). This on a class minimum of 6 kg which is 106 times as much. So the difference in tip weight is less then 1 %

Maybe there is an advantage of having the top of the sail run level with the top of the mast. Too bad that this same feature can be had with a halyard system as well. Some F16's already have such a setup, see the pictures for clearification.








So the question becomes, is there any real advantage of having a push up mainsail ?

Wouter

So the question becomes, is there any real advantage of having a push up mainsail ?

Wouter [/quote]

Absolutely, it looks good to non cat sailors who wonder how you are going to get your sail up the mast.

Plus I find the push up sails easier to get down.

Another advantage (which Wouter sees as disadvantage) is that the tube doesn't allow you to roll up the sail too tight. Rolling too tight really doesn't help the sail I think longevity wise.

Seems like it would take longer to put the sail up with a "push-up" sail. It comes down fine with the halyard set up. When I ordered my new main there was the option of a "push up" style but I didn't give it much thought. I can't see how it could make any difference in sailing performance. I have never used a push up main so I can't say for sure but it can't be significantly easier to deal with than a small lightweight halyard. Besides, if you have mast up (very secure) storage you can use the halyard to tie to the end of your boom to keep it up and keep the mainsheet blocks extended so it doesn't get kinked, etc.
p.s. new Glaser main (white) and spin (orange) should be here today!!

PICTURES, or it didn't happen !

Wouter

Just got it and put the battens in. Babysitter on the way over so I can go give it a try!
BTW, got the spin and main. Is there a reason I would get spreader patches (separate 8in diameter circular fabric with sticky back) with them? It seems to have come with the main actually.

P.s. probably deserves its own thread but leech telltales at the top of the sail? On my Ullman I think I have them finally figured out and how to really make them work and the boat feels faster when I get the twist right. I think that answers my question, but what do people think about them? The Glaser doesn't have them but I could obviously put them on.

"Is there a reason I would get spreader patches (separate 8in diameter circular fabric with sticky back) with them? It seems to have come with the main actually."

Probably to be stuck over batten pocket where side stay rubs when main is let out.

If so, why not tape then? Why circles?

Place them on the main where otherwise the spreadder tips may poke a hole in the main. Possibly only happens if you jibe and forget to uncleat the positive mast rotation.

Ken

but the blade has a rotation limiter. I have a hard time thinking the spreaders tips will ever touch the main. Who knows.. I wrote to them about it.
I did put some rotation inducers on the HT for the RTI but the blades mast rotates pretty well so I am not too concerned.

Ok. no pics of the spin. I did put it up on the beach briefly to make sure the lines were done correctly but too much wind to take a pic of it. However, here is the new main.

Seems clearly a different cut than the Ullman, but you can't see it in the pic obviously. The head is bigger and it seems flatter. I did use 2 stiffer battens in #2 and 3 which definately made the top flatter (than the Ullman at least, I didn't try both sets of battens).
The sail seems very fast upwind. I was holding off a 2-up jav2 HT although they were pointing slightly higher than me. The downwind part needs to be investigated a little more. I think the sheeting angle looks good but my boat has two eyes - one a foot or so in front of the "standard" eyes near the chainplates. Matt had it set up with the rachets on the front for the Ullman spin I have. I used that for the new spin and although it looked right I think I need to try the aft ones. The spin is less sensitive than the Ullman. You have to be careful with the Ullman. A slight curl turns into a big one quickly. The Glaser is a little more forgiving. Another issue is the luff seemed too tight on the Glaser spin with the way I have the pole set for the ullman. Seemed to do better with letting the halyard down about 6-8 inches.

Sorry the pic is too big. I don't know how to dumb it down or I would have put it in the body.

P.s. when are they going to invent something better to make the windows out of? I actually had them reduce the size of the window from 3 panels to 2 because they always look like crap after a short while. Makes it hard to roll the sail solo too. Really nice when new but it already has a nice little crinkle crease.

Leech tell tales are the best when you're winning. However, the majority of us don't win.... So if I were you I would concentrate on the more important things first. ie starts, clear wind, boat handling, Then look at exact /precise tunning!!!
What's the point of having near perfect sail shape if you can't start on time, tack, gybe or mark round smoothly.
I'm sorry if I'm coming across a bit shirty but lets be fair you've got to pick up a feel for the overall boat not just pick at certain areas. What I'm trying to say (after a few drinks) is that it's a matter of feel for the WHOLE boat. Sailing is after all a form of mental masturbation.

The halyard is there to compensate for the soft oversized luff rope! My guess is that the sail manufacturer has never used a push up main either… <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I hear you. I am trying to get a feel for the whole boat and honestly it feels a little "bound up" unless the upper leech telltales are flying. However, when I went out today I didn't have too much of a problem without them.
I haven't had the patience to set up drills for myself. I get nervous using nav aids to practice roundings (crunch crunch and all). So mostly I concentrate on boat speed and have been practicing tacks and gybes. Starts are obviously very important- esp if racing in an open class where there will be plenty of bigger boats which would create bad wind for a "small" boat like mine. It is hard to get that practice without actually racing and there haven't been any races recently.

I notice you have end caps on your beams. Did they come with the boat? I need to get some - mine doesn't have any and it looks a bit untidy.

Mark.