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Blade building project..

Posted By: Rolf_Nilsen

Blade building project.. - 10/08/07 01:47 PM

Ref: http://woodastic.blogspot.com/


We are finally underways with our building. We plan to update the blog every week for those who might be interested. So far the strongback is done and we begin cutting and fairing the stations this week.
Posted By: fin.

Re: Blade building project.. - 10/08/07 02:06 PM

By all means, keep us posted. And good luck!
Posted By: Robi

Re: Blade building project.. - 10/08/07 02:37 PM

Rolf:
I noticed you said you are on a budget, I am currently selling my older sails for $500.00 (jib and main) battens included. Now the only problem I can see is shipping them to your location wont be economically feasible.
Posted By: tshan

Re: Blade building project.. - 10/08/07 02:49 PM

Three at once!!! Sounds like a fleet building party.
Posted By: Rolf_Nilsen

Re: Blade building project.. - 10/08/07 02:55 PM

Thanks for the offer Robi. Mainsail would never fit our masts and I do think we want to do the sails ourself. Nothing like crisp new sails <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: Robi

Re: Blade building project.. - 10/08/07 03:11 PM

No problem Rolf, keep us updated. I am specially interested to see how that tornado rig is going to work out for you.
Posted By: Stewart

Re: Blade building project.. - 10/08/07 03:59 PM

are you going to get the hulls down to weight with strip planking?
Have you done the weighing out?

<img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: Rolf_Nilsen

Re: Blade building project.. - 10/08/07 05:17 PM

We think it will work out well Stewart. We will pull off a test panel with 200gsm/4mm spruce/200gsm cloth once we have the stations set up to get some numbers. Considering that ply usually have three layers of epoxy on each side plus paint we should be good if we are careful with gaps (epoxy is heavy and expensive). I have also been talking with strip kayak and canoe designers about how to build light and got lots of tips. We have discused weight at length but only the test panel will tell. We will also do some experimental stuff inside the hulls to bring weight down as far as we dare. It will all be documented in the blog. Phill have come up with some new (to me) ideas which it will be fun to implement.
Posted By: Dermot

Re: Blade building project.. - 10/08/07 09:50 PM

Good luck with the project Rolf. Keep posting the Blog address every time you update it - I can never remember these things <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />
Maybe you should set up a webcam, so that we can all watch and give our opinions and advice on the cold winter evenings <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: Gato

Re: Blade building project.. - 10/09/07 09:29 AM

Welcome to the club Rolf
Posted By: Stewart

Re: Blade building project.. - 10/09/07 05:11 PM

cool.. Hope it works out!!..
200 gsm glass?.. I suspect you could drop to 100gsm if you wished. Although 200 will give greater scuff resistance...

If you wanted to be tricky you could use a combination of 100 & 200..
<img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
But dont listen to me I enjoy mucking about in a shed too much.. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: Rolf_Nilsen

Re: Blade building project.. - 10/09/07 05:27 PM

Stewart,

I am happy with any input, especially critical, as that often bring a new angle or information to the issue.
200gsm is choosen becouse it have proven to be a good schedule on kayaks both for strength and stiffness. Some of the tests done by Gougeon bros (J.R. Watson really did them I think) indicate that this is the best weight vs panel stiffness ratio for our project as we try to match materials to make it as strong as a proven ply boat. But as mentioned earlier, only the test panels will tell.

85gsm at the bow and 200gsm further back has been suggested.. How much work should we put into this is the question. Interestingly enough, a carbon laminate dont seem to have helped to bring weight down. A light carbon cloth would probably have needed more epoxy so it would have come out stiffer and stronger, but heavier. Pretty interesting I tought.

By golly, I also hope this works out <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: Gato

Re: Blade building project.. - 10/10/07 05:36 AM

I agree with Stewart that 100g is enough. It is in one way only surface strength you will gain. You will need to put the glass fibres at 45 degrees to the woodfibres to gain anything in strength.
Posted By: Rolf_Nilsen

Re: Blade building project.. - 10/10/07 07:20 AM

Thanks Åke (and Stewart). I understand that your opinion is that except for scuff resistance a catamaran strip hull will not gain much in the way of strength by using 200gsm instead of 100gsm. Correct?
I was worried that panel stiffness and strength would not be good enough for loads working 90degs on the wood fibers, making the glass strands break with catastrophic hull failure as a result. We dont plan to put much inside the hulls. Just partial bulkheads/ring-frames under the beams and at the bridle, going for a monocoque structure. This means that the panels between the bridle and the mainbeam will have to take care of themselves.

BTW, Åke. Just had a look at the pixie building photos you have on your site. I must say that your workshop is really nice and inspirational with its position just by the water. Looks like an old boathouse? If you work with epoxy during winter, how do you heat it?
Posted By: Gato

Re: Blade building project.. - 10/10/07 09:08 AM

If you put the glas mat so the fibers lay 45 deg to the wood fibers you will have them all working to prevent the hull cracking.
The best would be to use a Biaxial 45 deg mat.
I am also scared that you will have to glass both sides, at least on bigger boats it is the rule
Posted By: Rolf_Nilsen

Re: Blade building project.. - 10/10/07 09:34 AM

Hoookay.. Why is that? Glass fibres better aligned to the shearing loads between planks?
Do you even get biaxial +-45 200gsm glass? (or 100gsm)

The plan is definately to glass both inside and outside!
Posted By: valtteri

Re: Blade building project.. - 10/10/07 09:57 AM

At least few strip planked kayak plans that I have seen contained 160 g/m² glass on both sides. Why not strip plank with foam? With some heating the foam strips could be bigger than wood ones thus saving lot of time. Of course foam is not as "cool" material than wood <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />.
Posted By: Gato

Re: Blade building project.. - 10/10/07 10:53 AM

The wood in itself has very low resistance to shearing loads <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />
Don't think you can find BX+-45 of less than 400g
Posted By: Rolf_Nilsen

Re: Blade building project.. - 10/10/07 11:11 AM

Hmm, I can always cut plain weave and use that as a 90-90 substitute put on skewed but there might be rather a lot of waste and work in applying it. Overlaps and stuff is not much fun..
Posted By: phill

Re: Blade building project.. - 10/10/07 12:10 PM

Rolf,
From my own experience your comment about using light carbon and using more resin is not right. The type of weave, without a vacuum, has a greater bearing on weight. If you comparing plain weave to double bias then double bias will consume more resin although it would be stronger. Now double bias and a vacuum would be a good combination. I plan on trying this on the outer laminate of another project.
Now if you were talking about light kevlar and carbon or glass you may have a point but only because kevlar is such a bitch to work with.
If the outside was plain weave glass at +-45 would be very easy with very little waste and provide a hull that would most likely have better tortional stiffness and equal in all other respects. The issue is making the overlaps fair. This is easy if painting the hulls but requires more skill if a clear finish. You can work on an approx 0.1mm of thickness of the laminate for 100gm of cloth weight. So if using 200gm you would need a rebate on each overlap (1/5 of a mm) it could be achieved with a thin sanding block and course sand paper.
Just lay the cloth in place on the hull and mark the overlaps and then sand a rebate. If you go a little deeper this can be solved while filling the weave of the glass with clear resin. If painting it is even easier because you can use filler.


BTW:+-45 would work out easier to apply because it can be done in sections and the weave will take the complex shape much better rather than one whole side on the hull in one hit that will not take the complex shape as well.
Regards,
Phill
Posted By: Gato

Re: Blade building project.. - 10/10/07 12:41 PM

Phill is right about the +-45, and on top it is a dream to work.
The question is, do you really need an overlap? If not there is a nice way to deal with the problem. You just let the two layers overlap, wet them out and then with a very sharp knife you cut trough the two layers. take of the exess on top and carefully lift the toplayer and remove the exess on the underside.
It takes some practise and a very sharp knife
Posted By: phill

Re: Blade building project.. - 10/10/07 12:49 PM

Interesting idea.
Posted By: Rolf_Nilsen

Re: Blade building project.. - 10/10/07 12:57 PM

Phill,

great tip about how to make invisible overlaps, thanks! (I think you have mentioned it before, but now I'll remember it).

My source for the carbon comment is Bjørn Thomasson in Sweden (http://www.thomassondesign.com), the kayak/canoe designer/builder. According to him the density of the carbon fibres in the weave is larger than glass fibres. To get a good matrix around the fibres you would need more epoxy, especially if laid up by hand. With vacuum you come closer to the same amount of epoxy as you would use for the same weight of glass. With a lighter carbon cloth I suppose there are some gains, but it looks like there is a crossing point for carbon vs. glass for this application. It would be good to know if he (I) am wrong or even completely wrong. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I know the hull will be stiffer (as in less deflection) with a +-45 layup outside the core. But I was intrigued to hear that the panel integrity also will be better. Thinking about it, it becomes quite attractive to put the cloth on with overlaps due to the points you made.
Posted By: phill

Re: Blade building project.. - 10/10/07 06:16 PM

Rolf,
Also if you lay the glass gunwale to keel and then keel to gunwale and then gunwale to keel you end up with almost no waste and significantly less waste than running it length ways.
Posted By: Todd Berget

Re: Blade building project.. - 10/10/07 08:31 PM

I have found similar data suggesting that in order to achieve a significant weight savings with Carbon you would need to go to cloth weight that is the THINNER than the glass weight you originally specced. With these lightweight laminates you need to control resin weight which is partially done by keeping the fiber thickness to a minimum (thicker fibers need a thicker coat of resin to wet out). This would provide a laminate that is slightly stiffer and about the same weight.

Couple of thoughts I have had: have you considered using slightly thicker strips?? 5mm or even 6mm?? Remember stiffness goes up exponentially with the thickness of the panel. One of the reasons a Marstrom T is so stiff is that they use a 10mm core thickness. I would consider: 6mm thick strips with 200 gsm S-glass on the outside layed with the fibers at +45/-45 and then a lighter 100-130 gsm inside laminate of either Kevlar or tightweave glass (4-Harness or 8-Harness). I think you could get close to the minimum weight, gaining maybe 4 lbs. per hull doing this. You could even try to make up for it by making carbon rudder stocks and carbon beams.

keep us posted!!
Posted By: Todd Berget

Re: Blade building project.. - 10/10/07 08:36 PM

Rolf,

Check this site. they have done several panel tests relevant to what you are doing. (it is in english units, as a quick reference, 200gsm cloth is about 6oz) Again, good luck!!

http://www.thag-o-mizer.net/index.html
Posted By: mattaipan

Re: Blade building project.. - 10/11/07 11:16 AM

Hi Rolf

So, have you done the working out for strip planking or has Phill made alternate plans for you. I only ask as I wouldn't mind trying it out myself, I have access to ply, but have wanted to do some strip planking for a long time.

Regards
Posted By: phill

Re: Blade building project.. - 10/11/07 09:47 PM

Matt,
I hope Rolf does not mind me answering this question.
I prepared something specific for Rolf.

Regards,
Phill
Posted By: Rolf_Nilsen

Re: Blade building project.. - 10/11/07 09:49 PM

Not at all Phill, I hoped you would reply.
Posted By: stillbitten

Re: Blade building project.. - 10/13/07 10:55 AM

Hi Matt,

didn't think you had that much of a death wish.

"I wouldn't mind trying it out myself, I have access to ply, but have wanted to do some strip planking for a long time."

Do you ever want to get out of your shed again <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />.

Strip planking sounds nice and soft and fuzzy. But it is the method of the DEVIL <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />. To much trying to deal with soft timber and hard glue lines and the fairing NEVER ENDS <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />.

ARGH! I am having flash backs, got to go sailing to get rid of them <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />.
Posted By: Rolf_Nilsen

Re: Blade building project.. - 10/13/07 11:44 AM

Sounds like you have been trough a "labour of love" once and still need psychotherapy to get over it <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

These two guys obviously have an experience waiting for them <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> [Linked Image]

Attached picture 121368-DSC02183.JPG
Posted By: mattaipan

Re: Blade building project.. - 10/13/07 12:10 PM

Hi Gary

I like to live on the edge......of insanity <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

I won't commit myself to doing it just yet, but certainly like to consider it.

Regards
Posted By: Tony_F18

Re: Blade building project.. - 10/13/07 12:14 PM

Quote

[Linked Image]


That picture is just asking for a caption contest! <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: Rolf_Nilsen

Re: Blade building project.. - 10/13/07 12:28 PM

Have a go at it, could be fun, but please do it in another thread. It should not be too hard to guess what we discussed, but that would be no fun. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: Rolf_Nilsen

Re: Blade building project.. - 01/05/08 08:24 AM

Building is fun when you can not sail.
Just have a look at the lastest updates on our building blog. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: Mark P

Re: Blade building project.. - 01/05/08 10:20 AM

Hi Rolf (Darthvader)
It looks as if you're cutting 4mm strips off your approx 25x450mm spruce plank. In my experience I would definitely be using the table saw I've seen in earlier posts. You mentioned previous amateur builders using 'Skilsaws' (your DeWalt) but this may be because they didn't have access to a table saw? I only mention this as you'll have to cut close on 200 strips for 6 hulls I would imagine.
Being a qualified joiner I'm very interested in your project so please keep posting and don't let your family commitments hinder you too much <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: Rolf_Nilsen

Re: Blade building project.. - 01/05/08 10:33 AM

Mark,

the skilsaw vs. tablesaw isse have been much debated. The person I know who has the most experience building small strip plank boats reccomends using a skilsaw instead of a table saw. His experience is that the skilsaw produces just as good strips as the tablesaw for less work (setup, running planks trough it, breaking strips while handling etc). The short experience we have with the skilsaw is pretty good. We will at least give it a serious try.
Strips are 5mm btw. We expect to remove a full millimeter while sanding.

You are a professional woodworker? Whow! We will keep on posting updates to the blog and do a reminder her from time to time. Please keep comments, suggestions and everything else coming.
Posted By: Mark P

Re: Blade building project.. - 01/05/08 12:00 PM

I left school and became a qualified Joiner, worked my way up and off the tools, went to university and completed a Bsc (Hons) degree in Project and Construction Management. Worked in management roles for various National Construction companies but really missed the feeling of producing things with my own hands instead of the pen. For the past two years I have been self employed as a Joiner, Carpenter and Builder and I'm loving it. There are certainly different pressures involved but the benefits far out way being just a payroll number in a National Company!!
By the way, I hope to design and build a Cat this year I have a lot of ideas in my mind I just have to put them onto paper and tell the wife and I'm sure the later will be the hardest task of this project!!
Posted By: Rolf_Nilsen

Re: Blade building project.. - 01/05/08 12:06 PM

Why have you not spoken up earlier? We amateurs at woodwork need all the advice we can get <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
What kind of cat is it you want to design and build? F-16 or something completely different?
Posted By: Rolf_Nilsen

Re: Blade building project.. - 01/10/08 08:44 PM

Ok Mark, last night we ripped a respectable sized pile of strips. After the first 5-8 strips we really got the hang of it and from then on cutting perfect strips was a no-brainer. It was very easy to just walk the skilsaw along the plank. Dont think we will bother with setting up a table saw after this experience. Our kayak building/designing friend was spot on with the skilsaw. Hopefully the rest of his "easy-strip" building methods are as good. I.e. we are not going to glue the strips together individually but do them all in one go once they are in position. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />

Next up for ripping are a few 2x4, to make up the sides. Hopefully they are as easy to do as the thin strips.
Posted By: Mark P

Re: Blade building project.. - 01/10/08 09:11 PM

Hi Rolf
You appear to know exactly what you are doing and are working to a good plan which is the key. I have no experience in boat building so I'm not of much help but your blog is extremely good. To answer your first question I'm not planing on building a F16 but something a bit smaller to start off with. If I'm happy with the results then who knows!!!
Posted By: Rolf_Nilsen

Re: Blade building project.. - 01/19/08 07:01 AM

First hull half is now mostly planked. Putting the planks in place is satisfying work, if demanding at times. I suppose it will become routine when we get to the last hull.. Updates are in the blog.

[Linked Image]

BTW: For those who dont know, I am the stern guy with a green shirt and a caps on. Frode is the tall guy with the woolie.

Attached picture 130875-garage.jpg
Posted By: Rolf_Nilsen

Re: Blade building project.. - 02/21/08 04:13 PM

For those interested, we just pulled the first strip plank hull half off the mould and did a quick weight calculation.
I stepped on to our bathroom scales and got my base weight. I then picked up the hull half and we found the difference. Came out at 7.7Kgs. There are obviously several problems with this method to find the weight, but that is what we have got for now. Hull half is glassed on just one side with regular weave 200gsm glass but will now be sanded and glassed on the inside with 163gsm twill weave. We have learnt a lot from the process, so we fully expect the next half to be finished a lot faster with a better result.

So, if we say the finished hull half will weight in at 8.5Kgs that puts on a target weight of 26.5Kgs for the complete hull according to Marcus. Target should be 24Kgs to be close to min. weight, and I think we can achieve that. Phill and others have come up with some tips to further reduce weight which I dont think have been tried in other boats yet.
Even with just one side glassed, the part was very stiff. It will be extremely interesting to see how this project turnes out or if we will have a huge pile of firewood once we sheet in <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: Wouter

Re: Blade building project.. - 02/21/08 10:04 PM

Don't we all just love the amount of different topics and info available here on this forum ?

I find Rolf's and Frode's efforts to be extremely interesting.

26.5 kg as a conservative estimate for the first hulls ? I find that pretty promising.

Thanks for the update !


Wouter
Posted By: Rolf_Nilsen

Re: Blade building project.. - 02/21/08 10:54 PM

Wouter,

that is a very rought "guesstimate". Once we get closer to a finished boat, we will be more certain. But the building method is not way off at least.
Posted By: valtteri

Re: Blade building project.. - 02/22/08 11:00 AM

Rolf, if I remember correctly you were planning clear coat for the hulls. This way you would be saving maybe around 1.5 kg's of paint too, have you calculated that to your estimate?
Posted By: Rolf_Nilsen

Re: Blade building project.. - 11/15/08 10:49 PM

I have been a naughty boy and forgotten to update you all on our project. I'll try to do better in the future.

We have not worked on the project during summer. Too many other projects and keeping the wife happy is important too. Now we are back at it. The building blog is still at: http://woodastic.blogspot.com/

I have two tips to share which was posted here recently during a debate about why homebuilding is important to a growing class. We have to be careful with the costs we incur on our boats, so we are always looking around for deals. Being able to use your own work as a way to get an affordable boat is a good way to help grow the class.

Tip 1: To get epoxy resin at a good price, dont buy in a store but do a phone session to industrial providers. If you have your own company you can easily score epoxy to 1/5th the price in a shop. We dont have a company, but were able to find an industrial provider who would sell us what we wanted anyway. The same providers often supply fillers, thickeners and fairing compound as well. Just make sure you know what you get so the epoxy is suitable for your project and your workshop. We found supplemental products to have a markup close to 20 times the cost price in shops!

Tip 2: If you need carbon fibers at a reasonable price, get to the phone and start calling carbon fiber weavers or manufacturers. We managed to buy 40kgs of carbon, at a very reasonable price compared to store prices. In fact the carbon and epoxy is so affordable that alu beams are much more expensive for us.


Some have called us nuts, so we had to find a way to block out the negative waves. The solution was obvious:


Attached picture tinhat-brigade.JPG
Posted By: scooby_simon

Re: Blade building project.. - 11/15/08 11:37 PM

Rolf,

That picture is proper funny.

Keep up the good work
Posted By: Rolf_Nilsen

Re: Blade building project.. - 11/16/08 09:55 AM

We have a good time in the workshop, when it is possible to talk over the noise from powertools that is.
Posted By: Catfan

Re: Blade building project.. - 11/17/08 11:30 AM

Rolf,

I am curious to know what you mean with "reasonable price" since I also found a good source for 1st choice 370 grs/sqm HS carbon cloth.
For small quantities (1-5 Kgs) the quotation is EUR 20 per sqm or EUR 54 per Kg.
Besides for very special INTERMEDIATE modulus they ask EUR 35 per sqm.
I bought some of both
Posted By: Rolf_Nilsen

Re: Blade building project.. - 11/17/08 11:43 AM

We did a little better than you wink Sent you an PM.
Posted By: Tony_F18

Re: Blade building project.. - 11/17/08 12:32 PM

Just in from Interpol:
Large quantity of carbon stolen from warehouse.
Suspects wore tinfoil hats and where last seen driving in an easterly direction. wink
Posted By: Rolf_Nilsen

Re: Blade building project.. - 11/22/08 04:48 PM

What do you get when you let the boys off to play with the chemistry set without supervision? You get a mess to clean up laugh laugh

Frode and Omar was to glue the rest of the bulkheads at frodes place last week. Turned out they had a small mix up when measuring the epoxy. It is suppsed to be 100 parts resin to 32 parts hardener. Suffice to say that 50 parts hardener to 16 grams resin dont promote a good result. Frode have to clean the parts, do some sanding and try again.

What did we learn? Mark the tins for resin and hardener with a big marker! I feel partly responsible as I did not mark or leave instructions on what was in the unmarked containers, but as the tins was very different, I knew what was in them.
Posted By: bobcat

Re: Blade building project.. - 11/22/08 06:33 PM

And even in your story you are potentially adding confusion when you refer to 50 parts and 16 grams....mixing units could lead to a bad mix.

But I got your point.
Posted By: Rolf_Nilsen

Re: Blade building project.. - 11/22/08 06:42 PM

I live in Norway and here we use the metric system. The scope of all epoxy measurement is grams for us. The important part is that the ratios are correct.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Blade building project.. - 11/22/08 08:24 PM

Rolf, you have to rub it in, do you... We promise to learn from this- and do better next time. Promise
Posted By: Rolf_Nilsen

Re: Blade building project.. - 11/22/08 09:03 PM

Uh-oh, now that you are active here on CS the nag about me refusing to get on facebook will never cease..

Good to see you here Omar, you can keep me to the straight facts smile
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Blade building project.. - 11/22/08 09:17 PM

Nice to be here as well:) I need to work on my postings so I could get a better and cooler rating than just "stranger".
Posted By: Timbo

Re: Blade building project.. - 11/23/08 02:39 PM

Rolf, I was laughing pretty hard on the 50 parts harner, 16 resin, because I've done something like that many years ago when I was working on a wooden deck for a 505. It did get hard, too fast though!

And last week my 12 yr. old daughter was telling me she didn't need my help to make a cake, and then she added 1 1/2 cups oil (recipe said 1/2 cup) ummm, not so yummy cake...

Anyway, the DVD arrived yesterday and I put it in my laptop and watched it all.

Thanks for that!

Omar, welcome aboard, was that you in the foil hat or Frode?
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Blade building project.. - 11/23/08 07:14 PM

Thanks Timbo for kind words and support during difficult time of messing up! I must admit it was me wearing that foil hat, next to Rolf. Good to be amongst friends here by the way;)
Posted By: Rolf_Nilsen

Re: Blade building project.. - 12/17/08 08:59 AM

I did some quick estimations today on building time in strip:
Planking 5 hours, when done alone.
Sanding the inside and outsite 2 - 3 hours.
Glassing inside and outside 3 + 3 hours

5 + 2 (3) + 3 + 3 = 14 hours for one half hull panel. Scary stuff!
Posted By: ncik

Re: Blade building project.. - 12/17/08 10:50 AM

That sounds in the ballpark for my build.
Posted By: Rolf_Nilsen

Re: Blade building project.. - 12/17/08 11:13 AM

Add overhead in setting up the mould, ripping strips etc. and plywood begins to look good wink
Posted By: phill

Re: Blade building project.. - 12/18/08 02:09 AM

Rolf,
Just got back from Sydney with ply and cedar to build another boat. Just for the fun and interest of building using the same method as some CLC18 kayaks I built a couple years back.
If you keep tallying up the man hours we can compare notes when we are both finish.

Regards,
Phill
Posted By: Rolf_Nilsen

Re: Blade building project.. - 12/18/08 07:36 AM

Will try to keep a tally on the hours. Speed and quality have improved a lot on the strip planking, but the sanding is the same old drugde. Funny thing that became very clear last night is that company dont help everytime. I planked panel #5 alone up til last night, and it is the best panel (planking wise) so far. Last night Frode and I chatted a bit while I put on a plank.. Lo and behold, a really ill fitting plank was the result! Strip planking is best done solo on small crafts like this if one wants the best results.
Posted By: phill

Re: Blade building project.. - 12/18/08 02:41 PM

Rolf,
I planked a set of 32ft cat hulls myslef.
It is very relaxing work when not punching a time clock which is the way I feel when someone helps because I'm using up their time.
On the other hand the fairing was a real pain but the planking was great.
So you can probably do Ok on the bigger stuff too.
Regards,
Phill
Posted By: Rolf_Nilsen

Re: Blade building project.. - 12/19/08 08:03 AM

I have no experience with larger boats, but that is nice to know. I think the planking might be even easier on a larger hull? I have told you about my/our dream of doing a larger boat in the future..
Anyway, I can see how some get obsessed with strip plank and begin to build hulls without staples. Fitting just one plank each night etc. It is a bit like zen and quite relaxing. But one must use it as therapy I think, not to get a boat to sail/race if that approach is to be successful. Perhaps I should have as a goal to do one boat/kayak/strip plank project every winter, to shorten the winter and as therapy. Install enough lighting and I can use the time in the workshop as "light therapy" against winter depressions: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seasonal_affective_disorder

If only there were less sanding involved wink
Posted By: phill

Re: Blade building project.. - 12/19/08 08:58 AM

Rolf,
Yes it is the Zen concept that turns this into great therapy.
"Wash the dishes for the sake of washing the dishes not for the sake of getting them clean."
"Fit the plank for the sake of fitting the plank no for the sake of building a boat."

To this end, if you have the space, maybe build one large project may be better than a small project each winter.

I have got a lot better at fairing since I built the Alfresco 920 hulls. So much water has gone under the bridge in the last 15 yrs. I would love to build another cedar strip boat.

Each to his own.

Regards,
Phill
Posted By: Rolf_Nilsen

Re: Blade building project.. - 12/19/08 09:22 AM

I will get back to you on the "best practice" to do the fairing as painless as possible when we do the underwater hull or decides to paint our boats!

I dont have the space to do the large project just now, and I dont think the family is ready for me spending 2000 hours on a boatbuilding project over several years either. I know I will have to sell in that thoroughly so there is no hard feelings for me occupying the garage.
Will have to practice our zen a bit careful for the next few years at least. laugh
Posted By: self_inflicted

Re: Blade building project.. - 12/19/08 07:21 PM

Hi Phill
You now use the more practical way of fairing a belt sander and for those finer points a normal palm sander,So fairing a bigger boat will be a lot easier ( i told you you get better with practice). LOL.
Posted By: Rolf_Nilsen

Re: Blade building project.. - 12/19/08 07:55 PM

Hey, that is what we are doing as well (I am the only one in the group who dares to apply the belt sander): http://woodastic.blogspot.com/2008/03/repeat-until-done.html

I use an orbital sander afterwards with a soft foam pad. Then a quick run over the hull panel with a torture board. Thinking is that we will fair the underwater hull "the hard but proper way" with fairing compound and put on some graphite when time permits.
Posted By: Seeker

Re: Blade building project.. - 12/19/08 08:06 PM

It’s definitely not the Zen way to do it…but if you want to “gett’er done”…A low speed (under 1750 rpm) heavy duty sander/polisher with an 8” diskkit is much faster than a belt sander but it requires a very skilled operator…lack the skill, choose the wrong grit paper, or stop for in instant in one spot and you will have major problems...In the right hands it will cut your time to a fraction of what a belt sander will take. In the wrong hands it will destroy the fairness of a boat in minutes. You have to constantly stop, step back and LOOK at the work.

When I was building custom million dollar yachts (65’-105’) in the eighties the only thing we used belt sanders for was sharpening our wood chisels when it was too far to walk back to the shop to use the bench grinder…LOL. Sander/polisher> 6” DA> long board…The awl grip hulls of our boats were like a mirror.

Regards,
Bob
Posted By: self_inflicted

Re: Blade building project.. - 12/19/08 08:07 PM

Hi Rolf
When i was finishing off my first boat,Phil went into panic mode when i mentioned the belt sander,and as he said alot of water has gone under the bridge and with practice you do get better Ha Ha. But he still does cringe a bit when i mention the B word.And as for stripping paint(industrial 2 pak) you can't use anything else.
Posted By: Timbo

Re: Blade building project.. - 12/19/08 08:16 PM

Rolf, just sent you a Private Message, thanks. Tim
Posted By: Rolf_Nilsen

Re: Blade building project.. - 12/19/08 08:45 PM

The key to using the belt sander is to never ever stop moving it around, and run it paralell to the fibers, never across. That is my technique, and minimizing stops/starts, as they always seems to leave a mark.

How many watts would a "heavy duty polisher/sander" be? What is a 6" DA?
Posted By: phill

Re: Blade building project.. - 12/19/08 08:46 PM

Bob,
That method worked well on the inside of the 32ft cat hulls I built. Hell that was nearly 20 yrs ago.
I tried to upload a pic of the inside of the hulls but that has changed with the new upgrade. Looks like you already need the pic on a server ?
Posted By: fin.

Re: Blade building project.. - 12/19/08 09:07 PM

Originally Posted by Rolf_Nilsen
. . . What is a 6" DA?


Dual action sander. Circular or random orbit. The 6" DA is a very powerful tool for working large areas. There is also an "inline file"; air driven version of the long board, for finer work.
Posted By: phill

Re: Blade building project.. - 12/19/08 09:22 PM

Rolf,

I used the belt sander on the outside of the Alfresco 920 @90 deg to the planks and it worked well. Although the fine cedar dust used to get into the sealed bearings and I went through two sets of bearings in the sander. Using 90 deg probably wouldn't be suitable on thin planks as it rips the wood back pretty quick.
The sander polisher, I used on the inside and it worked great, It had a foam disk of around 7 or 8 inch dia.

Richard,
The belt sander is all very well on cedar planks that are 11mm thick but when you pull out a belt sander to use it on ply hull where the first laminate in the ply is around 1mm thick. I can't help myself.
Posted By: self_inflicted

Re: Blade building project.. - 12/19/08 09:41 PM

Phill, I just like to do it to get the horrified look on your face,and agreed Rolf if you stop you end up with an inspection hatch that you don't really need
Posted By: Rolf_Nilsen

Re: Blade building project.. - 12/26/08 11:27 AM

Sleeping less means more building done at late nights. Panel #5 (of 12) is now almost ready for sanding and glassing. Love christmas! http://woodastic.blogspot.com/
Posted By: Jalani

Re: Blade building project.. - 12/26/08 04:08 PM

Merry Christmas to you Rolf! smile

I really enjoy reading about the progress you have made each couple of weeks. Glad too that it won't be long before you can start on the 'other half' of each hull. I think that once you've got even one pairofhalves joined and bulkheaded you'll start to feel so much better about the project. Great work! cool
Posted By: Rolf_Nilsen

Re: Blade building project.. - 12/26/08 06:02 PM

Quote
I think that once you've got even one pairofhalves joined and bulkheaded you'll start to feel so much better about the project.

But I am having a great time now. It was harder last spring when I realised there would be no cat sailing that summer and not much building either (wifey projects). Cleaning up the workshop and investing in a proper vacuum cleaner also helped a lot on motivation to get down there at night.

Plan is to NOT assemble the halves into hulls before we have all parts. Only when we have the parts to go into the hulls will we do that. Assembled hulls take a lot of room vs. stacked panels, and we need to keep the drive on! Hope I get to pull panel 6 off the mould during christmas!

I sometimes tries to put the project into perspective. Building a strip plank kayak is a major project for many, we have done the equivalent of about five of those. On the other hand, compared to building a large boat or a house, this is peanuts..
Posted By: phill

Re: Blade building project.. - 12/30/08 04:46 AM

Richard,
Does this make you feel better.
Helps in finishing after planing scarf joints.

[Linked Image]
Posted By: Rolf_Nilsen

Re: Blade building project.. - 12/30/08 08:49 AM

Hm, the last time i scarfed plywood, I sanded the whole scarf for lack of a good plane.

Is that a small void I see in the scarf in the top sheet? Is that "real" BS1088 ply? Do you know if the middle layer is also gaboon/okume?
Posted By: phill

Re: Blade building project.. - 12/30/08 09:16 AM

Rolf,
You seem to be able to see something in the photo that I didn't see in the workshop. Having said that the ply we get here now comes out of China and it is not as good as the stuff I used to get out of Holland.
Still, I'll see if I can make the silk purse from a sow's ear.
Regards,
Phill
Posted By: Rolf_Nilsen

Re: Blade building project.. - 12/30/08 10:16 AM

The fat from the christmas food might have gone to my eyes.. Good luck with the purse. Leather can be very nice if worked long enough.
Posted By: phill

Re: Blade building project.. - 12/30/08 11:15 AM

Rollf,
I will work it as long as needed but with the backlog of projects I have I can't take too long.
Posted By: self_inflicted

Re: Blade building project.. - 12/30/08 07:50 PM

Originally Posted by phill
Richard,
Does this make you feel better.
Helps in finishing after planing scarf joints.

[Linked Image]

Hi Phill
I think you are just stirring now
I don't think there is any sand paper on on it, just trying to get a good picture
Posted By: Rolf_Nilsen

Re: Blade building project.. - 01/01/09 10:03 PM

In three days, we have busted our DeWalt circular saw and our chineese beltsander. We are making good progress, but breaking equipment is a downer. Ref: http://woodastic.blogspot.com/
Posted By: Rolf_Nilsen

Re: Blade building project.. - 01/03/09 10:48 PM

Well Phill, if you thought the belt sander was bad, you will be interested to hear that I did parts of panel #5 with an angle grinder and a coarse cleaning pad grin
I used it to remove most of the epoxy on the panel left after gluing the strips. Quick and easy, and not too risky either in my opinion. Sanding with the beltsander and the foam pad was much quicker and I got down to the stage where I can begin using a fairing board pretty quick compared to earlier. Not for the faint of heart or the Zen builder though grin grin
Posted By: Rolf_Nilsen

Re: Blade building project.. - 05/11/09 09:21 AM

Did a test beam in glass this weekend. Great fun, even if I started way to late in the evening.

Full report here:
http://woodastic.blogspot.com/2009/05/first-tube-test.html

Next, plank panel #7 and do a hull assembly. Will be exciting to see if they match up after flipping the stations over. Then on to get moulds for foils and ruddersystem done. Hopefully somebody sends me a package he have had ready for shipping some months now so we can get that task done as well smile
Posted By: Rolf_Nilsen

Re: Blade building project.. - 06/12/12 04:47 PM

Rolf returns from the dusty workshop and this thread is alive again!!

Some rather large steps since the last update.. To phrase myself in a properly understated way.

Latest developments


I also have a proper sewing machine on order for the trampoline and sails! smile First time I'll be building sails with a sewing machine actually intended for that (ab)use.


So.. Who else are builing stuff out there in F16 land?
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